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In that case, my sincerest apologies. Asking questions should never be frowned upon, and there are no stupid ones here! I guess I just got misread; there are plenty of people here who would tenaciously support what you read me as saying, so it's not an unfair assumption for a new member to make. To offer a more helpful reply than my previous, I definitely didn't mean that we should go around "teaching" people BS about how every normal thing has to do with a PL. That's an extremely deceitful practice that is rampant in the field and that I rage against. Those who truly have one don't need to be told. I meant we should work to prevent authentic cases from losing their memories as they grow up. Sorry for snapping, you just seemed rather assertive and by now I've been conditioned to see bad guys lurking everywhere here. I'm very used to being ripped apart here for just being... unfailingly normal. Glad to hear you didn't mean anything by it, you're just new and I'll be happy to show you the ropes.

As for certainty being a hallmark or not... I mean, you're free to present me with a prototypically authentic case that lacked absolute certainty. I'm all ears. I'm always looking for variety in the cases, but I've never encountered this yet. Tbh, I love their confidence; it's hilarious to hear a little kid talk so brazenly about what seems to us like such a grandiose claim, as if it's nothing of note whatsoever. Never fails to brighten my day.
 
"I mean, you're free to present me with a prototypically authentic case that lacked absolute certainty."

How is the phrase "prototypically authentic case" defined?
If the definition is "absolute certainty" or some longer expression amounting to the same, then all we have is a circular argument, a snake chasing its own tail. That doesn't make it exclusively correct or the only proper view. Very much the opposite, it is self-supporting, like a building resting on foundations which are in turn supported by the roof-beams.
 
I meant prototypical by other traits: onset in early childhood, spontaneous manifestation, strong identification with the previous personality, preferably a solved case, and so on. I was requesting to be told about a case that fit those and other common profiles, in which the subject also displayed some uncertainty about whether he really had a PL. I've never seen one that fits the bill.
 
Thanks Jack, I appreciate it. :)

As far as sharing a prototypical case that lacks absolute certainty, I'm going to have to do some more catchup reading on this site to ascertain what you mean by that. Check me on this: your focus seems to be on PLs experienced by children? If that is indeed the case, I can't help you there. I passingly mentioned my one "official" PL in my last message, and was eventually reminded of an earlier one (from many years ago) under different circumstances. In neither case was I a child when they happened; while I firmly believe I experienced what I did, I'm either too skeptical or too inexperienced to claim unequivocally that they were indeed PLs. (I've had a few other next-level experiences that were at least as profound, and I question them too!)
 
I'm coming into this discussion kind of late and it seems to gone off in a different direction, but I wanted to address the O.P. and say that, from what I understand, none of us have to come here; we volunteer for this duty in order to speed up our growth. It takes a lot of courage to do so because it is very difficult. That's why were are NOT supposed to remember anything, the amnesia is the handicap that makes it a challenge to navigate through this world of duality that seems to be bias towards the negative.

If we choose, we can reincarnate into other worlds that are easier, or not reincarnate at all, but that means a lot more "book learning". Take pride in the knowledge that you one of the hardy souls who voluntarily enroll in the school of hard knocks.
 
It's possible for adults to experience spontaneous and veridical PLM's as well, but it's extremely rare for such cases to start in adulthood, and all or almost all of this category actually begin with some faint precursors in early childhood, but the significance of the memories may not be recognized until adulthood. This could actually be taken as the answer to my previous question, as these kids do have PLM's but don't know they are PLM's yet, certainly an exception to the "brazen confidence" rule. This often seems to occur in the (again very rare) cases when the PLM's come from hundreds of years ago (see Giuseppe Costa); perhaps the subjects don't experience the typical unbroken past-present continuity the same way in such instances, leading to the memories being much weaker and less subjectively forceful and compelling. But almost all PLM case subjects are downright positive why they have them and what they come from from the very start.

As far as anyone can tell, supposed PLM's derived from regressions seem to be nearly universally inauthentic, which is mostly revealed by comparing the between-life accounts of those and the spontaneous cases. These confabulations tend to contain many concepts that aren't found in the primary case data at all, a ton of which are directly plagiarized from new age ideology, spiritism, or Eastern religions (Brad above seems to be pulling from this well), and therefore appear culturally conditioned. The PLM's themselves also often contain gross anachronisms or can easily be imagined by an adult with some historical knowledge, never get solved the way the "wild type" cases do, and the primary effect of hypnosis, in fact, is to make a subject more suggestible, willing to tell you what they think you're expecting to hear. The efficacy of regression as a therapeutic device is essentially due to a combination of the placebo effect and the subject's willingness to believe in the explanation of a past life as being the etiology for whatever problem they have; the truth of that etiology is completely irrelevant to the result of the treatment, due to how the placebo effect functions. Verisimilar PLM cases derived primarily from hypnosis appear almost exclusively (surprise, surprise) in children (see Chase Bowman).

And this is basically where the research stands on adult vs. child onset of PLM's; the former is certainly possible and known, backed up with solved cases, but such cases must also evince other qualities strongly in common with the childhood cases, including most importantly spontaneity of recall and a lack of ideology obviously co-opted from culturally derived sources. James Matlock has a good summary of the procedural aspects of reincarnation on his website; it is pretty much an individual, psychological process rather than a grand cosmic plan for humanity governed by an external force.
 
My position regarding reincarnation,past lives etc. was acquired completely independent of any new age ideology or religion, it is the result of a completely honest and non-biased search beginning at a pretty skeptical near atheism. As I stated on another thread, I looked into near death experiences, ( the particularly profound ones), as a place to start my search. And after sifting through hundreds of them, I began to have to accept some truths based on certain aspects that were shared among many different experiences by many different people from all over the world. One of the aspects that I eventually had to accept as a truth, (reluctantly), is the whole reincarnation thing and the reasons for it and how it works. So, a lot of different aspects of the reincarnation theory and things people said about it in their NDEs were confirmed by some of the stories told by these children about their PLMs ( there are a lot of things that some of these children say that people find puzzling that make me say AH HAH! so it's true!) and these same aspects are confirmed and expanded upon by some past life regressions.

By comparing important common traits among the three sources of info, I think i have been able to reasonably establish what is B.S. and what is not. You will not find a purely scientific way to prove the validity of any of this besides the process of elimination as I have done, and I don't care if it ever gets any scientific validation,what I've found is enough for me. You can talk yourself blue in the face about case data and such, the scientific community will never take you seriously, and nobody here wants to hear you tell them that it's not true unless it's been proven scientifically. You might as well be chasing windmills.
 
Hi Brad,

I've skipped a lot since the last post, and just went to yours--attracted by your great avatar! In short, as an old-timer to someone who is probably an old-timer as well (judging by your avatar), I like what you have to say. This is not to say that there isn't a lot of other great stuff I've skipped over, but as someone dropping in on a whim, its nice to land on something sensible. ;)

Cordially,
S&S
 
Thanks, S&S I appreciate your sentiments. I probably can't call myself an old timer yet, but I did just hit the half-way mark. However, looking at the new generations and their gadget addictions, I kinda feel like an old timer....

Glad you like the avatar, it's not me, it's a painting I did.
 
Hey Brad,
I have to agree with you. As of late this is the message I am being guided to. So perhaps those of us here, born on this particular planet located in this particular universe are here to learn through what Nature and neighboring celestial bodies have to offer us. Our dense reality is one for experiential wisdom and though change moves about us, there are cycles and seasons we ought to wise up to in order to strengthen our Faith or learn our lessons. The amnesia is something I've recently called Spiritual amnesia and I think that is because we have ways of getting swept away with our Ego and involvement with the world. Considering the flux, perhaps these lessons are experienced collectively- whether we all learn from them or not is a separate matter.

Though I can't say I've much expertise with vedic tradition, according to the ancient philosophy it is possible to stop reincarnating on Earth. We are fortunate great servants of humanity exist today and offer such wisdom for Liberation. I believe Spirit is Alive and guiding and nature is a masterful teacher.

Awesome painting dude. One more thing I agree with you on, the smart phone addiction is scary. Do you ever feel like a slave to your phone? Something else we could all use a little liberation from. :rolleyes:

All the best.
~CP
 
Hi Brad,

Very nice painting. I'd like to see some more of your stuff if you have more online and feel comfortable providing a link.

Cordially,
S&S
 
It is well documented on the forum I have had a NDE...because I have I believe I have the right to claim the following... I did not die neither did anyone else who had a NDE.. I have never and never will make the claim that my NDE experience is the same as I will experience when I actually do die .. My doctor a couple of days later said it all... I asked him did I die?.. his replied of course you didn't if you did you would not be here.. So to make that claim that NDE's are the same experience as when we do die would have no basis of being accurate or correct because I never died and neither did any of the others . To use NDE's as a basis of what happens when we do die and to also use them as a validation of reincarnation makes no sense at all
 
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Two things John: 1) Doctors- MD,DO, etc., even PhDs are just humans with their own biases. 2) The similarity between NDEs and death do not include remaining "dead", just part of the experience.
 
Hi Ken From my experience it is my opinion that when we experience an event that will kill us... either being through illness or accident or something else then that dying experience will be completely different to a NDE... I cannot prove that of course but it is my opinion how we die is a big factor in our dying experience compared to all of the NDE's that are just to much the same for them to be the real experience of dying and death .. It is my opinion because of what I have been through the true dying experience is far more individual and personal than what is painted with the broad brush of NDE's

All The Best
 
Hi John,

There are also numerous accounts by people who were regressed to (1) their prior life and (2) then progressed forward through the death experience and immediate aftermath and onto (3) the between lives period to their (4) next lifetime.

I don't think there is any divergence between such accounts and those recorded by people who have had NDEs in terms of-- (2) the death experience and immediate aftermath.

However, one thing that is consistently discussed by many who have had an NDE is the existence of a point at which they have to make a decision as to whether to return or proceed. If they proceed from (2) the immediate afterdeath domain to (3) the between lives domain, they cannot return to this lifetime. So, neither you nor Ken have gone all the way to (3) in terms of your NDEs

Thus, I think you are correct that those who have returned have not experienced everything as they were returned automatically and/or chose to return before they got to (3). However, we do have good accounts of (3) the between lives domain and what happens there from numerous researchers, such as Michael Newton, via regression.

So, there is a good deal of information about this period and domain as well. Why does this issue concern you so much?

Cordially,
S&S
 
Hi S&S Because as I have talked about before... John Tat must and will go through a ritual predetermined by BB and my source as he is going through the dying process which will be very different to my NDE when I did in part cross over to BB my spiritual self which I now believe that was how things were meant to happen From these two experiences I know for me the two are very different from each other I also understand the circumstances that exist when we are in fact dying are very different to those of a NDE.. just not for me.. Make no mistake our spirits/souls knows the difference between what has happened will kill us or it won't From my experiences I believe when its real our spirits/souls prepare themselves for the death of the physical entity and leaving it behind which in itself makes it a completely different experience to a NDE.. I'm not a believer that through regressions we can recall death or birth .. that is way beyond PLM's .. our spiritual selves/souls never die so such events are irrelevant to them ..Its only physical entities who concern themselves with death and birth ...Both are physical events nothing to to with our spiritual selves/souls

All The Best
 
With regard to NDEs, it all depends on which doctor you ask.

Of course there is an old saying, "When looking for advice, keep asking different people until you eventually find someone who advises you to do what your were planning to do in the first place". Similarly here, find an 'expert' who agrees with us and hey presto, we are right!
 
Hi John,

Well, we trust who we trust I suppose. For you it is BB and your source. However, I have chosen other sources for my beliefs. Plus, as you know, I have a deep distrust for the forces you have chosen to align yourself with. I hope they are for the good, but it appears to me that they are only out for their own benefit.

In terms of our spiritual selves not caring about the birth or death of their physical embodiment, that leaves me scratching my head a bit. Admittedly, this is not like the death of the spiritual self (which doesn't die physically). However, things that happen are things that happen. If I wreck my car or if my car gets too old and needs to be junked, I have to get a new one if I want to drive on the roads. Likewise, the death of the physical embodiment entails certain actions and steps by the spiritual self if it intends to be re-embodied in the physical.

Plus, it is obvious that this event is significant to both BB and your source, as they are assiduously working to assure that your death is accomplished in such a way that it leads to certain results they want in terms of the next lifetime/birth/re-embodiment. So, I don't see how you can say that physical birth and death are not matters of concern to the spiritual self, especially given the extreme concern and complicated steps you are being urged to take in the matter.

Cordially,
S&S
 
I was wondering how we can free ourselves from being reincarnated.
When soul has reached enlightenment. We will know this because we will have reached a state of cosmic consciousness and come to a understanding that all things
in the cosmos are inner connected. And that everyone and everything is exactly where they need to be at this very moment. All the pieces to the puzzle come together and everything make senses at long last. At that point we come to a point where we are at peacewith being physical in this world both with our success and our failures. As this is all apart of human experience.

Until then we come keep coming back until we reach this state of awareness from within. However no hurry as soul is already eternal by nature anyway.
So we have all eternity to get there.

Peace and love P.
 
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Hi S&S I understand where you are coming from... For people to really believe they chose to come back makes little sense to me When the physical entity suffers an injury or illnesses that will kill the physical entity there is no choice to be made, which asks big questions about what NDE's are.. how can there be a choice when there is no choice when the outcome is enviable? This asks big questions about the whole concept of what NDE's are...when you are truly dead you are dead there is no coming back... there is no choice ...after lets say a fatal car accident that destroys the physical body...."Clinically dead" does not mean you are truly dead and gone

Researchers such as Newton come up with these terms such as "the between lives domain " and so on which they claim they know about through regressions With these things authors such as Newton cross the line and go into spiritual things through which are at best questionable results of regressions. Not the best way to go about things, then they talk as though these things are facts; not even a maybe.

The death of John Tat is a different thing ... I think but I'm sure it was planned to happen long ago and John Tat is playing his role in a predetermined outcome. That is all John Tat's involvement is .. he has a role to play ... the outcome is of no concern to him because it is not about him.. the outcome begins with John Tat as he goes through the dying process

All The Best
 
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Hi John, not all NDEs are the same, and what you experienced in yours does not necessarily provide proof of the valididty of any other. There are several NDEs in which the person reporting it was actually clinically dead and came back to accurately report on events that they witnessed during the time that they were gone. The system isn't perfect,and I believe a lot of NDEs actually are accidents. While much of what happens in our lives is planned ahead, not everything that happens is pre-ordained. The existence of free will means that it is entirely possible that some other person makes a bad decision at a bad time and takes you out before your time. If your head pops off in the process, then your not likely going to be given the opportunity to come back. However, a lot of NDE cases contain instances of amazing healing occuring when they wake up.


Thanks for the compliment on the artwork S&S, here is a link to some more...

https://fineartamerica.com/profiles/brad-schulze
 
Hi John, not all NDEs are the same, and what you experienced in yours does not necessarily provide proof of the valididty of any other. There are several NDEs in which the person reporting it was actually clinically dead and came back to accurately report on events that they witnessed during the time that they were gone. The system isn't perfect,and I believe a lot of NDEs actually are accidents. While much of what happens in our lives is planned ahead, not everything that happens is pre-ordained. The existence of free will means that it is entirely possible that some other person makes a bad decision at a bad time and takes you out before your time. If your head pops off in the process, then your not likely going to be given the opportunity to come back. However, a lot of NDE cases contain instances of amazing healing occuring when they wake up.


Thanks for the compliment on the artwork S&S, here is a link to some more...

https://fineartamerica.com/profiles/brad-schulze
This thread is very interesting, but I don't feel I can add to something. However, I just wanna say - Brad - your paintings are amazing :) Do you remember if you painted this way in a previous life as well ?
Often, I have experienced with soulmate/s these type of gifts come from further back in time (past life/lives) and then come easily/naturally in the next life. It must be wonderful to be able to paint like that, to make "real" of the surroundings or the past life soulmate, people you have experienced before in a past life only from the mind and heart.

/Jaimie
 
Thank you Jaimie, I don't remember any past lives, but I do feel there is some natural ability that has carried over - sometimes it's just so intuitive. And in the few times I've ever ridden a horse in my life, I was told how natural I looked on a horse; and indeed, I felt very much at home there.
 
If you indeed find a way, please tell me!

The key is desire. It is one's desires that return the soul to life. One must genuinely lose ALL desires for this material world. This is the story of the Buddha's battle with Mara. Mara, a figure that is the essence of desire, initially tries to terrorize the Buddha, but the Buddha recognizes the attempt to overcome him with fear (a desire for safety) and denies any fear. Then Mara tries to tempt the Buddha with every sort of temptation, including having his beautiful daughters seduce him. But the Buddha again denies all temptations. Finally Mara asks who is the Buddha's witness and the Buddha calls upon the earth itself, the planetary essence of all desire, to witness his life's actions that demonstrate his rejection of all earthly materiel desire. It is reported the Buddha's last words were, "never again shall I enter another womb."

Likewise Jesus had no desire for the material world, as evidenced by descriptions of his life. This is why stories of Jesus' marriage are mere manipulation of the story to achieve certain political ends. Jesus gave up his life for his people. The lack of desire even for life is the ultimate surrender of all desire, as the fear of death is the basis of our greatest desire, i.e. to remain alive.

Life's ultimate irony is that desire can never be fulfilled, for no sooner does one obtain or fulfill a desire, than another desire replaces it. Thus man is consumed in the pursuit of temporary illusions that can never be obtained. I am always amazed at how many people tell me how much they love life and given the chance, would gladly return. Oddly enough, these are the very people that do not believe in reincarnation. I always reassure them they will indeed have another chance.

If you have any desires, and many do not recognize what constitutes a desire, these will bring one back for another cycle. This is not a matter of despising or rebuking desire; it is is a matter of losing desire completely to a point where paradoxically one no longer even desires to lose their desires. Sex is a major, driving desire that returns people to this life, one that will be used to try and lure one back to yet another physical existence. If one feels something is left unfinished or there is something that must be accomplished, this will also result in a return.

I came back to this life to finish a burning desire that I failed to achieve in my last life. In fact I met a sudden death while attempting to achieve that desire. In this life, I have since been shown how utterly wrong and absurd that desire was; but not until I manged to fulfill that desire. What is most bizarre is how I finally fulfilled that desire in almost exactly the same manner as I left it in the last life. It was very much like the experience of having a brief intermission during a movie, only this intermission lasted some 45 years.

Another issue that returns one to this existence are feelings of guilt. The feeling that one must make amends for the wrongs they have committed. Therefore, one must make amends to all the people that one has wronged or feels have committed wrongs against oneself, as again, these represent desires. The fact is everyone in these incidents are in it for themselves and you just happened to get in the way of their desires. Therefore, don't take it personally; it's not about you, it's about them. It is imperative one seeks to resolve ALL former transgressions by forgiving everyone involved, including themselves. Once one loses their own desires, the only thing remaining is to help others resolve their desires. In fact, that is the only reason for this existence.

When one comes into this world, they must make one of two choices. The first choice is one of default, the choice to help oneself to all they can get from the material world. This is the overwhelming choice made by humanity. The second choice requires a conscious effort to deny the first choice in choosing to help others. In helping others, one is further working towards a permanent departure from the life cycle. However, beware! Do not help others with that idea you are helping yourself and do not go to your grave until you have forgiven everyone - including yourself.

As the song says, "prepare yourself with what you need before you sign away the deed, 'cause it's not going to stop - till you give up."

One must recognize they have free will to choose. The soul cannot be forced to do that which it denies. However, there are many traps in this and countless books all the way back to the Egyptian Book of the Dead, refer to these traps. These traps are much like the traps one faces in this life, traps that are in fact due to one's desires and one's choices. It is the same after death. If one is presented with certain, appealing temptations, it will be their choice to respond and accept those temptation that will then trap them in another existence.

This is obviously the briefest overview. There is of course much more to this subject than space allows. I found many of my question answered in Sufi literature. However, it took more than half a lifetime of study to glean those answers. A caution, whatever one hears or thinks they know about Sufis is invariably wrong, as these impressions are derived from the preconceived notions of others. The only one who knows the Sufi is the Sufi. Sufis liken these mistaken impressions to blind men describing an elephant by their tactile impressions. That said, if one is interested in the subject I would recommend beginning with the book <i>The Sufis</i> by Idris Shah.

Everyone must find their own path. For each the path is different and unique and none are easy. I wish you the best in your pursuit.
 
g. ley, hello and thank you for taking the time to share. renunciation is definitely a direct path to liberation.
i am happy to read about your interest in sufism. to elaborate on your words about not repressing desire-
a great sufi has said that true renunciation can not be forced. these interest are natural steps in a souls evolution. similarly, a masterful yogi has described this example by the devotee forcing himself in a cave. unfortunately the devotee's mind was so engrossed on the life he was missing outside that he could not perceive and experience the divine presence. what i have read from the sufi hazrat inayat khan is that success comes from experiencing the desire and then renouncing it.

thinking on this and the idea of soul progress, it would seem it is in our nature to know. to experience.

you've brought me back full circle to my interest in nature as a teacher and a living spirit. though some may see this illusion as deceitful or treacherous, i can't help but feel that's just a mask man has given the divine- the intimate connection between god and nature to me feel more like lovers. with the mask off one might see illusion as a great mother. or even the One.

to have appreciation for the experience is a nice developing of the heart quality. the individual path is between soul and god, no one can truly tell another where they're at in their journey except the one.

thank you again. the reason i am elaborating is because i think it's necessary to be honest with ones self and where they're at in their journey. i mean this more so for myself. though you said you are amazed by people who say they love life and want to return, i'd say their honesty is an indication of where they're at which is just as sacred as the expression you've impressed above.
<3 sufi mysticism <3 bow my head to you
 
g. ley, hello and thank you for taking the time to share. renunciation is definitely a direct path to liberation.
i am happy to read about your interest in sufism. to elaborate on your words about not repressing desire-
a great sufi has said that true renunciation can not be forced. these interest are natural steps in a souls evolution. similarly, a masterful yogi has described this example by the devotee forcing himself in a cave. unfortunately the devotee's mind was so engrossed on the life he was missing outside that he could not perceive and experience the divine presence. what i have read from the sufi hazrat inayat khan is that success comes from experiencing the desire and then renouncing it.

thinking on this and the idea of soul progress, it would seem it is in our nature to know. to experience.

you've brought me back full circle to my interest in nature as a teacher and a living spirit. though some may see this illusion as deceitful or treacherous, i can't help but feel that's just a mask man has given the divine- the intimate connection between god and nature to me feel more like lovers. with the mask off one might see illusion as a great mother. or even the One.

to have appreciation for the experience is a nice developing of the heart quality. the individual path is between soul and god, no one can truly tell another where they're at in their journey except the one.

thank you again. the reason i am elaborating is because i think it's necessary to be honest with ones self and where they're at in their journey. i mean this more so for myself. though you said you are amazed by people who say they love life and want to return, i'd say their honesty is an indication of where they're at which is just as sacred as the expression you've impressed above.
<3 sufi mysticism <3 bow my head to you

El- Ghazali said one must be prepared.

"You must prepare yourself for the transition in which there will be none of the things to which you have accustomed yourself. After death your identity will have to respond to stimuli of which you have a chance to get a foretaste here. If you remain attached to the few things with which you are familiar, it will only make you miserable."
 
Hopefully there will be a chance for people should they desire to leave this world's incarnation cycles for other worlds after the current age has come to its conclusion.
 
When I have my bad moments I think I am trapped in some loop that keep repeating itself with no end and no meaning, like a insane game where I try different things to solve a situation but no matter what the situation keeps coming back and I don't know what else to do but to re-live it once again. I know one is not suppose to think this way, but I can't help it. Maybe because I don't remember going to heaven or through some light tunnel and so on. Sorry for being such a party pooper.
 
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