Is consciousness produced by the brain?

[tanguerra]

The most interesting question I still cannot answer is. Is my consciousness my pure self or is my pure self far more that my consciousness? I will not know that until I understand what consciousness is ...

Hi John,


Let me share a little Zen parable with you. It will at least illustrate that you are not the first one to wrestle with these issues


One day a young Buddhist was on a journey to take up his vocation to become a monk. He had to travel many miles and endure many hardships along the way to reach the monastery high up in the mountains. After weeks of walking and very footsore indeed, he came to the bank of a wide river. Staring hopelessly at the great obstacle in front of him, he pondered for hours on just how to cross such a wide barrier. It seemed hopeless and he felt like giving up when he saw a Buddhist teacher, in flowing robes, walking along the other side of the river, deep in meditation.


The young Buddhist yells over to the teacher, “Oh wise one, can you tell me how to get to the other side of this river”?


The teacher stopped, pondered for a moment, looked up and down the river, then called back, “My son, you are on the other side”.

....For me, a big part of the problem is defining various words used for ''things" that are normally hidden from physical view. Soul is a perfect example. You say 'soul' and you have it defined in your mind as something. 100 people hear you say soul and your probably going to invoke 100 different definitions. What you call the 'pure self' is probably what I would refer to the 'soul.' From my mystical experiences, I have come to the opinion that the 'pure soul' or 'divine light' of creation - does not incarnate into the flesh.

Excellent answer DKing.

 

[John Tat]

Thanks dking777 and tanguerra for your replies. I understand it is difficult for almost everyone to believe what I believe, that we are three identities in one There is our physical self our pure self and our souls. The physical dies and the other two reincarnate. The other day I was given a brochure by a religious group, who it was does not matter. In the brochure it talked about the farther, the son and the holy ghost I think it was saying god or maybe we are those three in one. I didn't completely understand what it was saying


If Christians believe that, then why is it so hard to believe we are three identities in one?

 

[John Tat]

Dking 777. I find your experiences both fascinating and interesting. I would like to ask you a couple of questions. While yours and my experiences do have similarities they are different. Do you believe it is possible all of us are not on the same journey? I'm beginning to come to the believe that is true


When you think about it, it is unrealistic to believe we are all on the same journey.


Do you think those of us who have experienced what we have do have a distinct average over those who have not experienced what we have? I don't mean because we have had them, but we have experienced what happens and can prepare in my case my consciousness for the next time it happens. To me there is a big difference in experiencing it once the dying, compared to experiencing what happens then surviving to go through it again next time. If we are on different journey's maybe mine required me to experience what I have. The next time for me may well be a totally different experience. Even if it is I will be prepared for the dying process once it begins, Being in that different place, in my case where there was only my consciousness has to be experienced to prepare for it again

 

[dking777]

When you think about it, it is unrealistic to believe we are all on the same journey.

When dealing with 'metaphysical' themes - it is hard to comprehend what is meant by 'journey.' Human lives are going to be traveling different paths and their journey in human form is going to be remarkable unique to them. Compare the paths of George Bush to Elvis Presley and I think they are each going to describe two unique different journey's in their travel time here on the planet earth. Both of famous and had to deal with that aspect of life - but - I think they are probably going to be like night and day in other regards.
On the other hand - when I was a teenager and young adult - I wasn't looking for the uniqueness in human lives. I was looking for the common thread or common bond. We all have the same basic requirements. Food, water, shelter and such.


When I was on the 'other side' I was getting a different picture of life in a spiritual sense. For a decade I spoke about the 'me' aspect verses the 'we' aspect. I always told people that we were in this 'journey' through time on the planet earth 'together.' It was an 'all for one and one for all" game. There was a common goal and victory wasn't achieved until all got to claim victory. This whole 'heaven and hell' concept never fit into my philosophy of life. There was not a division of 'winner and losers' on the other side. My understanding was - that if there was a hell on the other side and it contained one 'lost child' of the Creator - then - victory couldn't be had until that lost child (spirit) was back home with our Divine Creator. I have always had a belief in reincarnation so the 'heaven and hell' thing didn't work for me. But during that decade I always promoted the idea that our journey in this world was the same because we (as spirits) were all on a journey that was 'homeward' bound - back to our point of origin in the celestial realm. Where your at in the journey is where your at. Where I am at in that journey is where I am at. I told people there was no sense in making comparisons on where we were at - as long as we knew we were all headed for the same 'goal post' and the same victory dance in heaven - together as one. (As in all on the same team. All in all is all we are.) That was the impression I got from my experiences anyway.


Sincerely,


DKing

 

[dking777]

Do you think those of us who have experienced what we have do have a distinct average over those who have not experienced what we have?

If your talking about the 'near-death experience' then I don't think so. I was telling a friend about the memories I had of my 'death scene' and car accident in 1978 and he said he wished something like that would happen to him. I told him I thought he was a fool for wanting that. I write and filter out a great deal of the hardships and pain associated with that memory. (No body wants to hear a violin sad story.) I only spoke about it with friends to try and comprehend for myself what happened and why. My honest opinion is - I think the media has presented a 'one-sided' view of it - and it has become very over-rated. If people started the Q and A thing about the afterlife when I told them about my NDE - I would just point to their hearts and tell them, "All the truth you want is right there. Find it your own self." I think it is a popular myth that a NDE is supposed to make you a better person. I have known a few people who have NDE's and they were rotten people before and after. In my opinion and experiences, everyone has access to the same spiritual realm though 'sleep' and 'out of body' experiences. That isn't all that dramatic because the body still has vital signs. To me, that is what makes the NDE different. The power of the testimony that yes - some type of 'conscious awareness' does exist after the body ceases to function. If there is an advantage of the NDE - it is - I have no fear of death what so ever. Been there, done that, came back.
I think that came be just as much a handicap as an advantage. There was a period after my NDE when I was very reckless with myself and my life. I got past that period without a scratch and look back on it now and think - what a young fool I was. As an example - there was a period when I was being shown the future and from that - I gathered - I couldn't die before my time. I was talking to a friend and he debated me on it - so - I got in my car and put on the cruise control at 40 MPH and drove through a large major city from one side to the other and never put my foot on the brake. I was running red lights and cars where honking and many near misses. I proved my point. I didn't die and I didn't get into any accidents. (I had what some called 'flashforwards.' I could see an hour in the future and saw myself standing by that city limit sign without a scratch an hour before I took that drive.)


If God sent me an 'email' today and said to 'get ready' - your about to have another NDE tomorrow. I would 'run like the wind' and hide. If I could write an ad on craigslist and convince someone to take my place -- I would. I wouldn't tell them about all the hardships associated with that sort of thing and if I could reach back in time and find my friend again - I'd let that fool have his wish. When he got back and started complaining about all the hardships - I would just say, "I told you. You wouldn't listen. Had to find out for your own dang self."


What is that saying? What don't kill you only makes your stronger. If I had a dime for every time someone tried to make me feel better about my medical condition in childhood, I would own Fort Knox.


I think - in life - there are advantages and disadvantages to all things. In the end - it all balances out somehow. In the end, I feel we are all searching for the same thing. The truth that is hidden away in our own hearts. Where we are at in that search, is where we are at.


Sincerely,


DKing

 

[Eowyn]

My honest opinion is - I think the media has presented a 'one-sided' view of it - and it has become very over-rated. If people started the Q and A thing about the afterlife when I told them about my NDE - I would just point to their hearts and tell them, "All the truth you want is right there. Find it your own self." I think it is a popular myth that a NDE is supposed to make you a better person. I have known a few people who have NDE's and they were rotten people before and after. In my opinion and experiences, everyone has access to the same spiritual realm though 'sleep' and 'out of body' experiences. That isn't all that dramatic because the body still has vital signs. To me, that is what makes the NDE different. The power of the testimony that yes - some type of 'conscious awareness' does exist after the body ceases to function. If there is an advantage of the NDE - it is - I have no fear of death what so ever. Been there, done that, came back.

Loved those words, DKing... I tried for some time to tell just that to people in this NDE group I was, some so closed to the idea of reincarnation... but I mostly failed. I was told more than once that looking inside of them was not as easy as it seems... And it's so frustrating when you see they could have a lot of answers if only they looked in the right way... but I know, I learned to leave them alone. We all have to find our own paths and we can't change things.

 

[dking777]

I tried for some time to tell just that to people in this NDE group I was, some so closed to the idea of reincarnation... but I mostly failed.

I have shared the story of how I died in front of 8 friends and two paramedics. None of them had any doubt in their mind that they looked at my corpse for awhile. If ever I had a captive audience about any tales I could tell about the afterlife - it was them. I refused to talk about it for many days and weeks after. I felt it was 'impossible' for a human to pass on 'truth' to another human. This was 1988 and I had a long history of 'death scenes' I could talk about prior to that - and I had tried, over and over again to pass on information and it just doesn't work. Mere mortal human words are not enough to open the minds of the closed minded. All it seemed to led to in the past - was debate and controversy. They all finally talked me into sharing some 'insights' with them - and every single one of them wanted to debate me on it. If you say something they want to hear - they praise you for it. If you say something they don't want to hear - they will start throwing rocks at you.


When the NDE first became popular - I joined a group of supposedly like mind and like experienced people. Oh my gawd. Was that a mistake. They turned out to be worse than those 8 witnesses in 1988. I became very disenchanted by the experience and the only word that pops into my mind is 'arrogance.' People who had 'one' experience and felt they had all the answers. My Gawd, I have had over a 1000 deaths due to a cardiac condition - and I am still searching for answers.


But yeah, I ran into that problem myself. Someone who claimed they had a NDE - and denounced reincarnation. My attitude is - just because it wasn't revealed to you during that phase - doesn't mean it isn't true. It just means you don't have a mind to handle the weight of that truth yet. As I stated in the other post, I feel the NDE is powerful testimony of the fact that 'consciousness' (or awareness) happens independent of a physical body. They other thing I always advocated in my talks with friends is - 'yes Virgina - there is a Santa Claus." There is a "Higher Power" or "Divine Spirit of Creation." I was never partial to the worldly name "G-o-d" but if the shoe fits. The idea that you could read everything you needed to know about God out of the pages of a book was absolute insanity to me. That is why I pointed to people's hearts because I believe "God" lives in the hearts of us all. I would ask people if they believed in God and felt they had a personal, intimate and private relationship with God. If they answered yes - then I told them, "There is nothing I can tell you that God can't tell you his self or her self - which every you choose to believe. Let God led you to the truth." I recall one friend trying to debate reincarnation with me. What is strange is - this young friend had his own NDE to talk about - which he didn't like to do. (This was in 1981.) He wanted to know why reincarnation wasn't revealed to him in any way - since he felt he had an intimate relationship with God. I told him, "You ever hear the phrase, don't bite off more than you can chew? God knows you better than I do boy. God knows that is more than you can chew on right now."


(This particular person is one of the ones I refereed to who was 'rotten' to the core after his NDE. His NDE didn't save him from himself.) He had the 'spirit of jealousy' attached to him. I could see, hear and smell this 'spiritual critter' and he refused to listen to anything I told him about it. All I knew was, he had to work that out with God. He is also the one who told me, "I was like Albert "freaking" Einstein when I was outside my body, but when I came back I was Gomer Pyle again."


Sincerely,


DKing

 

[Eowyn]

I can relate so much to what you are saying here! Especially this:

Mere mortal human words are not enough to open the minds of the closed minded. All it seemed to led to in the past - was debate and controversy.

I like the first sentence very much! :thumbsup:

I became very disenchanted by the experience and the only word that pops into my mind is 'arrogance.' People who had 'one' experience and felt they had all the answers. My Gawd, I have had over a 1000 deaths due to a cardiac condition - and I am still searching for answers.

Yes... and it's incredible how some are becoming famous/making money selling books from a single experience that proves nothing, except to their minds already filled with doubtful beliefs.


Lately I always have in mind a phrase that one of the characters in "Game of Thrones" says a lot: "We know nothing". I think the moment you think you know something is quite dangerous... and it's easy to deceive yourself.

 

[John Tat]

The title of this thread is "Is consciousness produced by the brain"


The answer may well be associated with children's previous life memories. It is obvious those children are born with whatever the source of those memories are, is in a far more active state than children who do not have previous life memories.


I have always believed a 3-4 year old child's brain has not developed enough to comprehend and then have the abilities to communicate such complex adult memories. It takes around 20 years for a human brain to fully develop


Traditional believers claim those memories are soul memories. In my opinion were the belief in soul memory goes horribly astray is, you would also have to believe the soul has consciousness. If our souls were the source of our consciousness or had its own consciousness it could transmit to the physical brain we would all be different creatures


Wherever the memories are coming from, it must be capable of bypassing the underdeveloped functions of a young child's brain.


In my opinion that gives us a real clue to where the memories comes from. After my experience I believe all previous life memories comes from our consciousness. The reincarnating consciousness which I call my pure self is far more active in those children with previous life memories than it should be in the early development of the human child. Our consciousness dominates the human brain. If it is more active than it should be in the young human child it will bypass the underdeveloped human brain


If this is right then consciousness is not produced by the brain


I believe my reincarnating pure self experiences physical life in almost the identical way the human brain does. That is one of the reasons why I continually work developing my pure self

 

[David Wilson]

Along the road to Reincarnation, it is first essential to establish whether consciousness is produced by the brain, or whether consciousness can exist outside the brain.

Dr. Bruce Greyson, Professor, Department of Psychiatry & Neurobehavioral Sciences, University of Virginia has this to say:



What evidence are you aware of that supports consciousness beyond the brain? What does the brain produce?

"What evidence are you aware of that supports consciousness beyond the brain? What does the brain produce?" This question seems to presume that matter or a brain constitutes substantiality, a "real" beyond questioning... as if matter is a criterion for 'the real or true' to be measured against.... as if matter iwere the bottom line criterion for reality. I was reading in a mmessage/teaching from Jeshua in which he seems to chuckle at the fact that people go about measuring things, as if to be scientific. When they poke their finger into someone's abdomen, they will assure themselves that yes, your belly is here and it is real. But what people rarely if ever do is establish the virtue or reality of their testing equipment- in this case, their own finger! There remains the presumption that the body and its finger are "real" beyond the shadow of any doubt. But where is their scientific evidence for this?! I look into a mirror, see a reflection, recognize its form and say, " I am." When I have an intuitive perception of someone else's thought, does this not indicate conscious awareness that is beyond the brain? One time I determined to see a friend's aura ( because she could see mine). I did see lovely little arched rainbow-coloured light above her head. What has a brain to do with this observation? In order to demonstrate and animate a body- to walk and talk and " be here now" we incarnate- we 'have' bodies. Being here, or appearing to be " here" has purposes I am told, but "this" physical allocation cannot be presumed to be the foundation of life, its beginning and essential wherewithal. We are, as it says in Monopoly, " Just Visiting". Who is visiting? I the 'self', psycho- spiritual entity which many imagine is a separate being in and of itself. I am not self created. I am inter-associated with God, or the Source of all. I have read that the only devil is the idea that we are separate from God. This is no more 'religion' than it is science, but it is not a science many of us know, because we continue to identify with and as that which we are not: physicality. This body is like a glove that is manipulated by a euphemistic 'hand', superconsciousness or soul. What evidence supports that the brain is conscious at all. I have been endlessly told that I think in and with my brain. But when my friend Sharon leaves her body, as she has done a number of times, her awareness does not cease at all. I think that many people want to continue to think and feel that we are bodies. Such is a major "benefit" however dubious, of being incarnated. This option exists and with it, we may deem that we are individuals which are not connected to all else. When I walk out of a hospital minus my spleen ( which has happened) am I less of a person? I have not noticed that this is the case. I is this self, "forever " an extension of God". That I may doubt it speaks of mental liberty, but not of the truth. "Consciousness beyond the brain" requires no proof, other than that it is conscious awareness. Western science still has the cart before the horse. What is it in the womb of a fetus that becomes conscious? The self of that upcoming child is conscious and its being had preceded the fertilization of the ovum. I guess that, for me, things I have seen and heard are some of what that enables me to " believe" in what I am saying, and one might discount this simply be quoting my early statements here about a body and the senses not being scientifically accreditable instruments. But for the spirit, my finger feels nothing at all! I had a Oneness experience that underlies my whole mentality with regard to physics and metaphysics. I know that life is not in any way dependent upon blood or air or body. I know that I am and that a Something Is which incorporates all selves, all " I's" that are, have been or will be. The idea that a brain 'thinks' or knows is silly for me, but not for everyone. Maybe Woody Allen should do a film, "Interview with a Brain" (which sits on a plate beside a psychic.) The brain is an agency by which the Spirit-self does what it sees fit, via the body. It does not so much 'produce' as it 'enables' the psychophysiological functioning of the human form. Like all the other organs, it has an intermediary role.

 

[Native Son]

"What evidence are you aware of that supports consciousness beyond the brain? What does the brain produce?" This question seems to presume that matter or a brain constitutes substantiality, a "real" beyond questioning... as if matter is a criterion for 'the real or true' to be measured against.... as if matter iwere the bottom line criterion for reality. I was reading in a mmessage/teaching from Jeshua in which he seems to chuckle at the fact that people go about measuring things, as if to be scientific. When they poke their finger into someone's abdomen, they will assure themselves that yes, your belly is here and it is real. But what people rarely if ever do is establish the virtue or reality of their testing equipment- in this case, their own finger! There remains the presumption that the body and its finger are "real" beyond the shadow of any doubt. But where is their scientific evidence for this?! I look into a mirror, see a reflection, recognize its form and say, " I am." When I have an intuitive perception of someone else's thought, does this not indicate conscious awareness that is beyond the brain? One time I determined to see a friend's aura ( because she could see mine). I did see lovely little arched rainbow-coloured light above her head. What has a brain to do with this observation? In order to demonstrate and animate a body- to walk and talk and " be here now" we incarnate- we 'have' bodies. Being here, or appearing to be " here" has purposes I am told, but "this" physical allocation cannot be presumed to be the foundation of life, its beginning and essential wherewithal. We are, as it says in Monopoly, " Just Visiting". Who is visiting? I the 'self', psycho- spiritual entity which many imagine is a separate being in and of itself. I am not self created. I am inter-associated with God, or the Source of all. I have read that the only devil is the idea that we are separate from God. This is no more 'religion' than it is science, but it is not a science many of us know, because we continue to identify with and as that which we are not: physicality. This body is like a glove that is manipulated by a euphemistic 'hand', superconsciousness or soul. What evidence supports that the brain is conscious at all. I have been endlessly told that I think in and with my brain. But when my friend Sharon leaves her body, as she has done a number of times, her awareness does not cease at all. I think that many people want to continue to think and feel that we are bodies. Such is a major "benefit" however dubious, of being incarnated. This option exists and with it, we may deem that we are individuals which are not connected to all else. When I walk out of a hospital minus my spleen ( which has happened) am I less of a person? I have not noticed that this is the case. I is this self, "forever " an extension of God". That I may doubt it speaks of mental liberty, but not of the truth. "Consciousness beyond the brain" requires no proof, other than that it is conscious awareness. Western science still has the cart before the horse. What is it in the womb of a fetus that becomes conscious? The self of that upcoming child is conscious and its being had preceded the fertilization of the ovum. I guess that, for me, things I have seen and heard are some of what that enables me to " believe" in what I am saying, and one might discount this simply be quoting my early statements here about a body and the senses not being scientifically accreditable instruments. But for the spirit, my finger feels nothing at all! I had a Oneness experience that underlies my whole mentality with regard to physics and metaphysics. I know that life is not in any way dependent upon blood or air or body. I know that I am and that a Something Is which incorporates all selves, all " I's" that are, have been or will be. The idea that a brain 'thinks' or knows is silly for me, but not for everyone. Maybe Woody Allen should do a film, "Interview with a Brain" (which sits on a plate beside a psychic.) The brain is an agency by which the Spirit-self does what it sees fit, via the body. It does not so much 'produce' as it 'enables' the psychophysiological functioning of the human form. Like all the other organs, it has an intermediary role.

This short essay of yours would seem to merit further discussion. I read what you have written as being more of a conscious "self" discussion with one's own physical brain, where the self is considered as a separable part of the physical brain. And I suppose that you would agree with your self that not the brain but the self is what motors the body? Or do you consider that both self and the physical brain co-pilot the physical body? Or perhaps it's more realistic to assign the physical brain as the sole pilot of the body?

Ultimate and absolute reality is a very hard and difficult nut to crack, as the kernel inside may very well be that reality we all seek to grasp. However, the physical brain is hardly the only tool needed for cracking this nut to release the inner content, the kernel of truth. Provided that we can even imagine to understand what truth is. That absolute reality is equal to truth is not difficult to have, provided we truly understand these three terms; absolute, reality, and truth.

What interests me more on what you stated is this. "But when my friend Sharon leaves her body, as she has done a number of times, her awareness does not cease at all."
Have you, yourself, ever left your body in the same way you say your friend Sharon does hers? And if you have not, on what premise are you accepting the claim that her awareness does not cease at all when outside of the body?

I myself have had two specific experiences which may meet the general definition of an OBE, such as perhaps something similar to what you say of your friend Sharon. However, after many years I still find it difficult to accept it myself, that I actually experienced such a phenomenon; my consciousness/soul/self leaving my own physical body. I don't know all the particulars about Sharon's OBE experiences and conditions, but I suppose you must have been convinced that Sharon's consciousness/soul/self, does leave her physical body. And when she does, her consciousness/soul (self) is what separates from her body. And I suppose, going by what you state, that her physical brain must remain separate from her consciousness, since it's part of the physical body that she leaves behind on those specific occasions?

How is Sharon, herself, convinced that she has fully, and successfully, left her physical body/brain, consciously? Unfortunately for my own two experiences I don't have anyone to corroborate what I thought I was experiencing, a separation of self consciousness from my physical body. Let me be clear, I had others present, my own family members, observed me while I believed to be experiencing the OBEs, but they have never believed me.

 

[Polaris8]

This short essay of yours would seem to merit further discussion. I read what you have written as being more of a conscious "self" discussion with one's own physical brain, where the self is considered as a separable part of the physical brain. And I suppose that you would agree with your self that not the brain but the self is what motors the body? Or do you consider that both self and the physical brain co-pilot the physical body? Or perhaps it's more realistic to assign the physical brain as the sole pilot of the body?

Ultimate and absolute reality is a very hard and difficult nut to crack, as the kernel inside may very well be that reality we all seek to grasp. However, the physical brain is hardly the only tool needed for cracking this nut to release the inner content, the kernel of truth. Provided that we can even imagine to understand what truth is. That absolute reality is equal to truth is not difficult to have, provided we truly understand these three terms; absolute, reality, and truth.

What interests me more on what you stated is this. "But when my friend Sharon leaves her body, as she has done a number of times, her awareness does not cease at all."
Have you, yourself, ever left your body in the same way you say your friend Sharon does hers? And if you have not, on what premise are you accepting the claim that her awareness does not cease at all when outside of the body?

I myself have had two specific experiences which may meet the general definition of an OBE, such as perhaps something similar to what you say of your friend Sharon. However, after many years I still find it difficult to accept it myself, that I actually experienced such a phenomenon; my consciousness/soul/self leaving my own physical body. I don't know all the particulars about Sharon's OBE experiences and conditions, but I suppose you must have been convinced that Sharon's consciousness/soul/self, does leave her physical body. And when she does, her consciousness/soul (self) is what separates from her body. And I suppose, going by what you state, that her physical brain must remain separate from her consciousness, since it's part of the physical body that she leaves behind on those specific occasions?

How is Sharon, herself, convinced that she has fully, and successfully, left her physical body/brain, consciously? Unfortunately for my own two experiences I don't have anyone to corroborate what I thought I was experiencing, a separation of self consciousness from my physical body. Let me be clear, I had others present, my own family members, observed me while I believed to be experiencing the OBEs, but they have never believed me.

Nativeson, This is a excellent question to ask in terms of who we really are and the nature of consciousness and the cosmos in general. Years ago I had an NDE which set the stage for this spiritual Journey I have been on ever since. Over the years I have had OBE's however my trigger for such experiences is usually a lucid dream. When in this state I can trigger a conscious OBE. That said the nature of our universe is a complex one in that there are more dimensions to our universe then what we can see and detect on the physical plane. What I have discovered as well as our science is that all there is in the cosmos is consciousness itself. Be it this dimension or the other higher dimensions as well. So in essence consciousness the soul if you will actually resonates beyond the physical brain and body itself.

In fact man has several subtle bodies within the physical one that correlates to the higher dimension of the universe. These subtle bodies work in unison with the physical one while we are incarnated. When we die the soul or consciousness simply shifts itself inward into the next inner subtle body which is the astral and centers itself there. The silver cord that connects our subtle bodies to the physical is snapped. In which case the physical body dies. However all of the life experiences that the soul had while in life is transferred into the astral body. There the soul will continue on somewhere within in the astral dimension of our universe. This process repeats itself again once astral life has been lived out and the soul withdraws from the astral world into the mental plane which is the next higher dimension. There the soul will live out its heaven life on the mental plane before dropping the mental body as well. Then the soul will return to the soul or causal world which resonates beyond time, space and matter.

Here is where the soul is finally in its true home as all possible realties and times lines exist as a singularity which is above time as we understand. It is here that the soul will make a decision to either incarnate back into the lower worlds of duality of the mental astral and physical plane or continue onwards within the higher dimensions beyond they soul plane. Most of us choose to incarnate back because it is here where the soul (consciousness) evolves and grows.

So to answer your question consciousness uses the physical brain to contact matter here in the 3rd dimension so that it may have experiences here. However it can leave the body for short periods of time by shifting itself within the astral body and experiencing reality on the fourth dimension. As long as the silver cord is connected to the physical body the soul can return. In fact we all do this every night when we sleep. We call it dreaming but in reality it is consciousness experiencing the fourth or fifth dimensions we are simply not aware of this.

Hope this helps some and thank you for such a wonderful question. I hope in time our science will discover the other dimensions of our universe. It has to a extent already done so with the discovery of dark matter and dark energy. They simply have not figure it out just yet.

Love and peace always P.

 

[David Wilson]

Nativeson, This is a excellent question to ask in terms of who we really are and the nature of consciousness and the cosmos in general. Years ago I had an NDE which set the stage for this spiritual Journey I have been on ever since. Over the years I have had OBE's however my trigger for such experiences is usually a lucid dream. When in this state I can trigger a conscious OBE. That said the nature of our universe is a complex one in that there are more dimensions to our universe then what we can see and detect on the physical plane. What I have discovered as well as our science is that all there is in the cosmos is consciousness itself. Be it this dimension or the other higher dimensions as well. So in essence consciousness the soul if you will actually resonates beyond the physical brain and body itself.

In fact man has several subtle bodies within the physical one that correlates to the higher dimension of the universe. These subtle bodies work in unison with the physical one while we are incarnated. When we die the soul or consciousness simply shifts itself inward into the next inner subtle body which is the astral and centers itself there. The silver cord that connects our subtle bodies to the physical is snapped. In which case the physical body dies. However all of the life experiences that the soul had while in life is transferred into the astral body. There the soul will continue on somewhere within in the astral dimension of our universe. This process repeats itself again once astral life has been lived out and the soul withdraws from the astral world into the mental plane which is the next higher dimension. There the soul will live out its heaven life on the mental plane before dropping the mental body as well. Then the soul will return to the soul or causal world which resonates beyond time, space and matter.

Here is where the soul is finally in its true home as all possible realties and times lines exist as a singularity which is above time as we understand. It is here that the soul will make a decision to either incarnate back into the lower worlds of duality of the mental astral and physical plane or continue onwards within the higher dimensions beyond they soul plane. Most of us choose to incarnate back because it is here where the soul (consciousness) evolves and grows.

So to answer your question consciousness uses the physical brain to contact matter here in the 3rd dimension so that it may have experiences here. However it can leave the body for short periods of time by shifting itself within the astral body and experiencing reality on the fourth dimension. As long as the silver cord is connected to the physical body the soul can return. In fact we all do this every night when we sleep. We call it dreaming but in reality it is consciousness experiencing the fourth or fifth dimensions we are simply not aware of this.

Hope this helps some and thank you for such a wonderful question. I hope in time our science will discover the other dimensions of our universe. It has to a extent already done so with the discovery of dark matter and dark energy. They simply have not figure it out just yet.

Love and peace always P.

Hello Sir, Polaris8- It's so good for me to read your writing above. I am not in a position to disagree with its content, which surprises me, since I can be disagreeable sometimes : ) From what I have learned, read and gleaned, your synoptic review of 'much that seems to happen' sounds astute at the least. In spite of your very helpful writing, I will also respond to Nativeson with regard to some specifics he has mentioned. Thank you, Polaris8!

 

[David Wilson]

This short essay of yours would seem to merit further discussion. I read what you have written as being more of a conscious "self" discussion with one's own physical brain, where the self is considered as a separable part of the physical brain. And I suppose that you would agree with your self that not the brain but the self is what motors the body? Or do you consider that both self and the physical brain co-pilot the physical body? Or perhaps it's more realistic to assign the physical brain as the sole pilot of the body?

Ultimate and absolute reality is a very hard and difficult nut to crack, as the kernel inside may very well be that reality we all seek to grasp. However, the physical brain is hardly the only tool needed for cracking this nut to release the inner content, the kernel of truth. Provided that we can even imagine to understand what truth is. That absolute reality is equal to truth is not difficult to have, provided we truly understand these three terms; absolute, reality, and truth.

What interests me more on what you stated is this. "But when my friend Sharon leaves her body, as she has done a number of times, her awareness does not cease at all."
Have you, yourself, ever left your body in the same way you say your friend Sharon does hers? And if you have not, on what premise are you accepting the claim that her awareness does not cease at all when outside of the body?

I myself have had two specific experiences which may meet the general definition of an OBE, such as perhaps something similar to what you say of your friend Sharon. However, after many years I still find it difficult to accept it myself, that I actually experienced such a phenomenon; my consciousness/soul/self leaving my own physical body. I don't know all the particulars about Sharon's OBE experiences and conditions, but I suppose you must have been convinced that Sharon's consciousness/soul/self, does leave her physical body. And when she does, her consciousness/soul (self) is what separates from her body. And I suppose, going by what you state, that her physical brain must remain separate from her consciousness, since it's part of the physical body that she leaves behind on those specific occasions?

How is Sharon, herself, convinced that she has fully, and successfully, left her physical body/brain, consciously? Unfortunately for my own two experiences I don't have anyone to corroborate what I thought I was experiencing, a separation of self consciousness from my physical body. Let me be clear, I had others present, my own family members, observed me while I believed to be experiencing the OBEs, but they have never believed me.

Hi again, Native Son- First I must thank you for such a respectful reply. I do not always get this, here and there, over the internet.
I will say that the a brain co-operates with the Consciousness/Self/'I' in piloting the body, but not as if "willingly" since the brain is inanimate but for the 'self'. To suggest some of where I am coming from in all of this, I think a fetus is enabled to proceed in its becoming a human because it is enhanced by self/consciousness/soul as it evolves physiologically. It is fostered and facilitated, I theorize, by That which is its reason for being, for enabling " manifestation" of humanity here amid the (a) material domain.
Sharon's video youtube can be seen and heard here ( one of them, that is) :

Part of what enables me to appreciate and believe the authenticity of Sharon's various accounts ( I have spent hours on the phone with her, as well- we are thousands of miles and an international border removed, physically speaking) ) is my own experience in 1971. It also is the event by which Sharon wrote to me, to ask about, and which began our online relationship. If I succeed in this next part of clarification it will perhaps be the first time I have done so, but I want to make it clear that while nearly every instance of a "Jesus" reference is due to biblical, churches and books and Christianity and t.v. preachers, my own references to Jesus/Jeshua are not determined by these faulty allusions. The 'Only-Son-of-God-Jesus' is not who I mean to be referring to! I saw the actual Jesus in Toronto, briefly, in 1971. Sharon read of this and contacted me to hear more about it, since she is quite familiar with the real Jesus. Sharon is quite church-influenced but the real Jesus , who is not towing the church line, loves all of us and not just those who already know all about his true self and actual allocation amid creation.
I do not quibble with Sharon's accounts but her tendency to idealize God as King, and Jesus as King are NOT my own current and growing awareness. My brief and visually and emotionally known visit from Jesus/Jeshua preceded a Oneness experience that same night which enables me, as suggested, to relate to, and with, numerous metaphysical accounts and ideologies I have encountered.
You asked: "Have you, yourself, ever left your body in the same way you say your friend Sharon does hers? And if you have not, on what premise are you accepting the claim that her awareness does not cease at all when outside of the body?" I have had to write the above stuff in response to this. In the link to Sharon's video, she is hit by lightning on her back porch. She ultimately winds up in a Heavenly environment. He awareness does not cease. The lightning strike shut down electricity in the local neighborhood for hours. It left char marks on the patio. She remembers rising out of her body, seeing her "dead" brothers, speaking with God, feeling incredible encompassing Love etc. It's what she experienced. ( Shall I question her testimony, or my own ability to "hear" of it?) In my own experience, much less elaborate, though most consciousness-altering and amazing, I experienced the ineffable Self. I was not dead, though minutes before I lay whimpering on a bed, weeping and in dread about my supposed mortality and imperfections as a human. Somehow my seeing Jesus put me in touch with my deepest subconscious fears, and after that, my tears. And after that, I began "seeing" God, Self, Atman. I know and have experienced Life, inclusive of me, that depends not whatsoever on a body. That awareness was inherent to the experience, as was its inherent eternality, sublimity, holiness, freedom, lovingness, joy and peacefulness. Yes, "I" was standing with opened eyes, but what I saw was the true and real 'I" which was, as well, the All "I". And I know we are not bodies. My point, in part, is that leaving my body has nothing to so with anything. I experienced a freedom and awareness that has nothing to do with any body! I did not have to "die" to experience Heaven in its formless capacity. It was a monumental blessing to me to have that experience and I no longer entertain suicide as a possible means of escape from life. I know we cannot "die". I think that Polaris8 gives a very good summary of stuff that happens. " I approve of this message." : ) (within the limits of my own understanding). Much of what he states also appears in "Home with God" by Neale Walsch, and God. I see little point, actually, in gaining confidence in the non-physical without also allowing for the being Self-Source. I see no point in anything without God, Cause, "Knowing, Knower, Known as One". (Paramahansa Yogananda) "...on what premise are you accepting the claim that her awareness does not cease at all when outside of the body?" On what premise, I may ask of you, are you accepting the claim that to think you are "in" a body is true? I highly recommend " Jesus My Autobiography", published in 2015. In spite of its seeming unlikelihood, it is an authoritative first person account of this teacher's life, inclusive of his awareness of spirit vs matter, love, etc.

 

[David Wilson]

Along the road to Reincarnation, it is first essential to establish whether consciousness is produced by the brain, or whether consciousness can exist outside the brain.

Dr. Bruce Greyson, Professor, Department of Psychiatry & Neurobehavioral Sciences, University of Virginia has this to say:



What evidence are you aware of that supports consciousness beyond the brain? What does the brain produce?

Is there any evidence that supports consciousness produced by a brain?

 

[David Wilson]

According to quantum physics, consciousness IS the creator!

The Creator is Consciouness and/or Awareness, of Itself, ie The All.

 

[Native Son]

Nativeson, This is a excellent question to ask in terms of who we really are and the nature of consciousness and the cosmos in general. Years ago I had an NDE which set the stage for this spiritual Journey I have been on ever since. Over the years I have had OBE's however my trigger for such experiences is usually a lucid dream. When in this state I can trigger a conscious OBE. That said the nature of our universe is a complex one in that there are more dimensions to our universe then what we can see and detect on the physical plane. What I have discovered as well as our science is that all there is in the cosmos is consciousness itself. Be it this dimension or the other higher dimensions as well. So in essence consciousness the soul if you will actually resonates beyond the physical brain and body itself.

In fact man has several subtle bodies within the physical one that correlates to the higher dimension of the universe. These subtle bodies work in unison with the physical one while we are incarnated. When we die the soul or consciousness simply shifts itself inward into the next inner subtle body which is the astral and centers itself there. The silver cord that connects our subtle bodies to the physical is snapped. In which case the physical body dies. However all of the life experiences that the soul had while in life is transferred into the astral body. There the soul will continue on somewhere within in the astral dimension of our universe. This process repeats itself again once astral life has been lived out and the soul withdraws from the astral world into the mental plane which is the next higher dimension. There the soul will live out its heaven life on the mental plane before dropping the mental body as well. Then the soul will return to the soul or causal world which resonates beyond time, space and matter.

Here is where the soul is finally in its true home as all possible realties and times lines exist as a singularity which is above time as we understand. It is here that the soul will make a decision to either incarnate back into the lower worlds of duality of the mental astral and physical plane or continue onwards within the higher dimensions beyond they soul plane. Most of us choose to incarnate back because it is here where the soul (consciousness) evolves and grows.

So to answer your question consciousness uses the physical brain to contact matter here in the 3rd dimension so that it may have experiences here. However it can leave the body for short periods of time by shifting itself within the astral body and experiencing reality on the fourth dimension. As long as the silver cord is connected to the physical body the soul can return. In fact we all do this every night when we sleep. We call it dreaming but in reality it is consciousness experiencing the fourth or fifth dimensions we are simply not aware of this.

Hope this helps some and thank you for such a wonderful question. I hope in time our science will discover the other dimensions of our universe. It has to a extent already done so with the discovery of dark matter and dark energy. They simply have not figure it out just yet.

Love and peace always P.

Thanks for volunteering your perspectives, understandings, and your beliefs. However, like the theorized multiverse/multidimensional structure of the physical universe put forth, as a possibility, by some theoretical physicists, I find it difficult to grasp, as a reality, that the astral realm is something multidimensional. Although I cannot say, with certainty, just what reality really is. That this physical world may not be a reality, I can certainly relate to, but being able to relate to it is not saying that it is true. I hope that the physical world, as is generally and overwhelmingly believed by the majority of mankind, is not real, as then reality lies beyond the physical. Physical life and death, by not being considered a reality, opens up other worlds of possibilities. And I must say that, of those of us who believe that reality lies elsewhere than the physical world, are not all agreed on what may lie beyond this physical world.

To me reality must be truth, a truth beyond a shadow of a doubt. And for me, I cannot relate to anything being reality when I hear of so many different reports, and many times in actual contradiction and not just a variation of accounts of what lies beyond the physical world. Truth is, and must always be in agreement with itself. As I maintain and believe, Reality, being equal to Truth, must also be in agreement with itself. And as the old saying goes, "the truth will set you free." I must first come to an agreement with myself, as others should do the same, and then Truth will set us all free from all doubts, even from those doubts beyond any shadow of the physical world. To see the truth of reality is to be enlightened, and able to see beyond all shadows of doubts. Or as an ancient sage once said about shadows on walls...picture this!

It's very difficult for man to relate to anything that has not been personally experienced, especially those things that, apparently, only a very small minority are able to experience, such as; NDEs, OBEs, and Psychic abilities. And even among those of us who believe to have had some sort of experience with any of these unusual phenomena, it's very difficult to find common ground. Obviously all these conditions, when not in agreement, will generate doubt in various degrees, some more, and some less.

I'm not attempting to question the validity of anyone's beliefs or/and experiences with nonphysical phenomena. I'm on a path to find common ground, which is the fertile ground where the seed of truth can be successfully planted. And from which the plant of reality can grow and flourish to the point of bearing the ripe fruit of truth, which can then be freely picked by all, and not just by a privy few. But who's to say if the truth be yours or mine, or his or hers, or ours or theirs? God only knows. But then we all know that there can be but one truth!

 

[Speedwell]

But then we all know that there can be but one truth!

I would doubt this very much. (perhaps it was intended as irony/sarcasm). At any rate, it seems to me the belief in only one truth is the root cause of many conflicts and bloodshed over the centuries and indeed today. If mankind finds it impossible to live with the idea of one single truth, perhaps the first forward step is to discard that idea as untenable.

 

[Native Son]

Hi again, Native Son- First I must thank you for such a respectful reply. I do not always get this, here and there, over the internet.
I will say that the a brain co-operates with the Consciousness/Self/'I' in piloting the body, but not as if "willingly" since the brain is inanimate but for the 'self'. To suggest some of where I am coming from in all of this, I think a fetus is enabled to proceed in its becoming a human because it is enhanced by self/consciousness/soul as it evolves physiologically. It is fostered and facilitated, I theorize, by That which is its reason for being, for enabling " manifestation" of humanity here amid the (a) material domain.
Sharon's video youtube can be seen and heard here ( one of them, that is) :

Part of what enables me to appreciate and believe the authenticity of Sharon's various accounts ( I have spent hours on the phone with her, as well- we are thousands of miles and an international border removed, physically speaking) ) is my own experience in 1971. It also is the event by which Sharon wrote to me, to ask about, and which began our online relationship. If I succeed in this next part of clarification it will perhaps be the first time I have done so, but I want to make it clear that while nearly every instance of a "Jesus" reference is due to biblical, churches and books and Christianity and t.v. preachers, my own references to Jesus/Jeshua are not determined by these faulty allusions. The 'Only-Son-of-God-Jesus' is not who I mean to be referring to! I saw the actual Jesus in Toronto, briefly, in 1971. Sharon read of this and contacted me to hear more about it, since she is quite familiar with the real Jesus. Sharon is quite church-influenced but the real Jesus , who is not towing the church line, loves all of us and not just those who already know all about his true self and actual allocation amid creation.
I do not quibble with Sharon's accounts but her tendency to idealize God as King, and Jesus as King are NOT my own current and growing awareness. My brief and visually and emotionally known visit from Jesus/Jeshua preceded a Oneness experience that same night which enables me, as suggested, to relate to, and with, numerous metaphysical accounts and ideologies I have encountered.
You asked: "Have you, yourself, ever left your body in the same way you say your friend Sharon does hers? And if you have not, on what premise are you accepting the claim that her awareness does not cease at all when outside of the body?" I have had to write the above stuff in response to this. In the link to Sharon's video, she is hit by lightning on her back porch. She ultimately winds up in a Heavenly environment. He awareness does not cease. The lightning strike shut down electricity in the local neighborhood for hours. It left char marks on the patio. She remembers rising out of her body, seeing her "dead" brothers, speaking with God, feeling incredible encompassing Love etc. It's what she experienced. ( Shall I question her testimony, or my own ability to "hear" of it?) In my own experience, much less elaborate, though most consciousness-altering and amazing, I experienced the ineffable Self. I was not dead, though minutes before I lay whimpering on a bed, weeping and in dread about my supposed mortality and imperfections as a human. Somehow my seeing Jesus put me in touch with my deepest subconscious fears, and after that, my tears. And after that, I began "seeing" God, Self, Atman. I know and have experienced Life, inclusive of me, that depends not whatsoever on a body. That awareness was inherent to the experience, as was its inherent eternality, sublimity, holiness, freedom, lovingness, joy and peacefulness. Yes, "I" was standing with opened eyes, but what I saw was the true and real 'I" which was, as well, the All "I". And I know we are not bodies. My point, in part, is that leaving my body has nothing to so with anything. I experienced a freedom and awareness that has nothing to do with any body! I did not have to "die" to experience Heaven in its formless capacity. It was a monumental blessing to me to have that experience and I no longer entertain suicide as a possible means of escape from life. I know we cannot "die". I think that Polaris8 gives a very good summary of stuff that happens. " I approve of this message." : ) (within the limits of my own understanding). Much of what he states also appears in "Home with God" by Neale Walsch, and God. I see little point, actually, in gaining confidence in the non-physical without also allowing for the being Self-Source. I see no point in anything without God, Cause, "Knowing, Knower, Known as One". (Paramahansa Yogananda) "...on what premise are you accepting the claim that her awareness does not cease at all when outside of the body?" On what premise, I may ask of you, are you accepting the claim that to think you are "in" a body is true? I highly recommend " Jesus My Autobiography", published in 2015. In spite of its seeming unlikelihood, it is an authoritative first person account of this teacher's life, inclusive of his awareness of spirit vs matter, love, etc.

Thanks for elaborating on my questions, David.

Had I known that your friend Sharon had youtube videos on her experiences, I would not have asked that many questions. I will have to watch her and try to see what her experiences are all about. I've responded to Polaris first, since he preempted you, and volunteered to answer some of my questions posed to you. In that response I've briefly, and further explained why my interest in these matters of NDEs, OBEs, and Psychic experiences.

As far as your response here, you have given me way too much to be addressed by a post or two. There is enough there for discussion to keep us busy for a year or two, if we were willing to cover every aspect and to such details to do justice to all those point you are making. I can also certainly agree with you on some of the general statements, such, "I see no point in anything without God."

And to answer this question you posed to me: "On what premise, I may ask of you, are you accepting the claim that to think you are "in" a body is true? I don't know that it is true, and I've actually grown to believe that in fact it may not be true. My premise for casting doubt as to the reality of the physical world (being in a body is true) is baseless, if I go by my five physical senses. I can tell you that pain and pleasure can surely bias a premise. I can feel my body, but I cannot feel my soul. However, I seem to see my soul much better than I can see my body, but only by using a non-physical instrument of sight, my mind's eye. Unfortunately, unlike tangibly, and objectively, testing one's physical sight, to see if one has at least 20/20 vision, the mind's eye does not lend itself to the same objective acuity testing.

And since it appears that we don't see eye to eye on much of what you have put forth, although we do see some common ground, I'm not prepared to conduct an argument which would appear to be wanting to sway you from something you have come to believe, and which has done you lots of good, as you state. For instance, on your recommendation to read, "Jesus My Autobiography," which I have already commented my opinion on it, stating that I did not believe that Jesus had written His autobiography, either directly or through channeling with the person writing it. I then read some pages of it, which is what's available free to read online, and it did not ring as being believable to me, based on logic , and which I was basing it on all that I know about Jesus from those sources you say are not your own sources; "biblical, churches and books and Christianity....." However, I have read A Course in Miracles, which was referenced therein. And that book was no miracle to me, as it did nothing to make my mind's eye "sight" any sharper, if anything, I read it as being more of pure fiction.

That I have come to believe that God is all-loving, and is never responsible for the seeming "evils" of the world, both to man and nature, I thank ancient sages for making my mind's eye see clearer, and further than I could ever have imagined on my own. And with this perceived glimpse of God, which I imagine, I can relate to others' glimpses. We never get more than a glimpse, it seems. But if God made our souls immortal, which can endure all good and all evil, what can be more loving than this?

Best regards,

 

[Native Son]

I would doubt this very much. (perhaps it was intended as irony/sarcasm). At any rate, it seems to me the belief in only one truth is the root cause of many conflicts and bloodshed over the centuries and indeed today. If mankind finds it impossible to live with the idea of one single truth, perhaps the first forward step is to discard that idea as untenable.

You have taken that statement out of context, and placed your meaning to it. Truth is truth, and truth is singular, unlike lies which can be many, whether intentional or not. I think that you are supposing that I was referring to a certain and specific religion, as being the object of the truth I was referring to. Reality is the truth of the matter I was getting at. And any reference that I make to God, past, present, and future, is the one and only God, and the God of all, but not the God of anyone's preferred beliefs/religion. Just to be clear. And to be open to the idea of there being two different truths, indeed places your mind is a full disarray of doubt.

I hope that I have made myself clear, as I would not want to be coming across to anyone as being partial to any particular religion. However, I'm partial to reincarnation, religiously. I hope you get that part and my use of the term, religiously, and the pun on part, partially speaking.

Regards,

 

[KenJ]

Let me be clear, I had others present, my own family members, observed me while I believed to be experiencing the OBEs, but they have never believed me.

Oh, how many centuries we have searched for Proof. What drives us to do that? As much as I've experienced I believe it was metered-out to meet what I needed rather than what I wanted. If we are here to learn something would it be best to read or talk about the experience, experience it and realize it later, or re-live it?

...are you accepting the claim that to think you are "in" a body is true?

Since I was shown that when I was four years old, I've never doubted that. In fact, seeing what you wrote was nearly the first time.

 

[David Wilson]

I would doubt this very much. (perhaps it was intended as irony/sarcasm). At any rate, it seems to me the belief in only one truth is the root cause of many conflicts and bloodshed over the centuries and indeed today. If mankind finds it impossible to live with the idea of one single truth, perhaps the first forward step is to discard that idea as untenable.

Thanks for elaborating on my questions, David.

Had I known that your friend Sharon had youtube videos on her experiences, I would not have asked that many questions. I will have to watch her and try to see what her experiences are all about. I've responded to Polaris first, since he preempted you, and volunteered to answer some of my questions posed to you. In that response I've briefly, and further explained why my interest in these matters of NDEs, OBEs, and Psychic experiences.

As far as your response here, you have given me way too much to be addressed by a post or two. There is enough there for discussion to keep us busy for a year or two, if we were willing to cover every aspect and to such details to do justice to all those point you are making. I can also certainly agree with you on some of the general statements, such, "I see no point in anything without God."

And to answer this question you posed to me: "On what premise, I may ask of you, are you accepting the claim that to think you are "in" a body is true? I don't know that it is true, and I've actually grown to believe that in fact it may not be true. My premise for casting doubt as to the reality of the physical world (being in a body is true) is baseless, if I go by my five physical senses. I can tell you that pain and pleasure can surely bias a premise. I can feel my body, but I cannot feel my soul. However, I seem to see my soul much better than I can see my body, but only by using a non-physical instrument of sight, my mind's eye. Unfortunately, unlike tangibly, and objectively, testing one's physical sight, to see if one has at least 20/20 vision, the mind's eye does not lend itself to the same objective acuity testing.

And since it appears that we don't see eye to eye on much of what you have put forth, although we do see some common ground, I'm not prepared to conduct an argument which would appear to be wanting to sway you from something you have come to believe, and which has done you lots of good, as you state. For instance, on your recommendation to read, "Jesus My Autobiography," which I have already commented my opinion on it, stating that I did not believe that Jesus had written His autobiography, either directly or through channeling with the person writing it. I then read some pages of it, which is what's available free to read online, and it did not ring as being believable to me, based on logic , and which I was basing it on all that I know about Jesus from those sources you say are not your own sources; "biblical, churches and books and Christianity....." However, I have read A Course in Miracles, which was referenced therein. And that book was no miracle to me, as it did nothing to make my mind's eye "sight" any sharper, if anything, I read it as being more of pure fiction.

That I have come to believe that God is all-loving, and is never responsible for the seeming "evils" of the world, both to man and nature, I thank ancient sages for making my mind's eye see clearer, and further than I could ever have imagined on my own. And with this perceived glimpse of God, which I imagine, I can relate to others' glimpses. We never get more than a glimpse, it seems. But if God made our souls immortal, which can endure all good and all evil, what can be more loving than this?

Best regards,

Hi again, Native Son. Gradually I begin to gather how unique and diverse people's perspectives are. And this only comes to me as a result of people intelligently sharing their perspectives. Sometimes these type of discussions get very deep and complex. Even a simple word such as "astral" is clearly understood by so very few human beings, myself included. I could only venture to say what " isn't" astral- ie, matter. Having read " A Course in Miracles" and found it to be as if fictitious is an indicator of the huge gap between our views of reality. I find the book irrefutable, basically: so very deep and true- and challenging. Reading it is not the same as doing the Lessons. The source/author may largely be addressing those who believe that he exists and is capable of writing his own life story (in another book) through a practitioner of ACIM (Tina L. Spalding). I mentioned that 'my Jesus' is NOT the popular Jesus, because the popular Jesus is a fabrication of churches and human belief systems. I have seen 'my Jesus' and have friends who see him now and then, today. I MUST distinguish between the Jesus you accredit, based upon normal sources, and mine, who is active, free and busy trying to re-present his teaching, his original teaching, his current teachings - because they are worlds apart, one being actual and one a myth of variant descriptions and priorities. But, since his own major book, ACIMiracles does not impress you, I will retire from trying to introduce to you "my" current" Jesus/Jeshua . At least my experienced Jesus does not put terms on people as if they must believe in him lest they anguish indefinitely in the fires of a hell his 'loving' "Father" purportedly keeps stoked and aflame while non-compliants exist. I am including what may well be the text from the Autobiography which you have read. I have no problem with it, as you might gather:
"I have come at this time, in this place, and through this being to speak my truth, to speak the story of my life — the true story of my life."

The purpose of this book is to clarify, to tell the truth, and to share my energies with you so that you can begin the transformation of your mind and, therefore, the transformation of your heart and your world. It is in the misteachings that have been associated with my name that much death and pain has been caused and that much guilt and self-recrimination has been expressed. That was not my purpose; that was not my lesson.

This story will begin the change. It will not make the change. It will facilitate turning the key in the lock, but you must open the door and walk through it into a new realm that is opened by this information. That is your responsibility. We can only bring you the message, this channel and I. We can only work together to transmit the information, but it is through your actions and your transformation that you will see a change in your world, a change in the subjective world that is manufactured from your beliefs, your thoughts, and your feelings.

I talk about the truth of my birth and the truth of my life. I cover some stories that are recounted in the Bible and tell you the true story of those events. I describe some of my personal traits, my human traits, and I define what I am, who I am, and why these things happened. You will be able to understand the truth, and you will begin this reconditioning, this retooling of your mind — of your thoughts and beliefs — on this subject of my life, my meaning, and my purpose, for it is a long process. The time is ripe. The need for a spiritual revolution is here.

— Jesus

I am surprised that on such limited information, you would determine that Jesus did not write his own story. since eternal life is such a big part of his teaching, it blows me away how most North America "believers" dismiss his every attempt to carry on with it! They want to keep their Jesus on the pages of The Book within their walls and beneath their spires.

 

[Polaris8]

Thanks for volunteering your perspectives, understandings, and your beliefs. However, like the theorized multiverse/multidimensional structure of the physical universe put forth, as a possibility, by some theoretical physicists, I find it difficult to grasp, as a reality, that the astral realm is something multidimensional. Although I cannot say, with certainty, just what reality really is. That this physical world may not be a reality, I can certainly relate to, but being able to relate to it is not saying that it is true. I hope that the physical world, as is generally and overwhelmingly believed by the majority of mankind, is not real, as then reality lies beyond the physical. Physical life and death, by not being considered a reality, opens up other worlds of possibilities. And I must say that, of those of us who believe that reality lies elsewhere than the physical world, are not all agreed on what may lie beyond this physical world.

To me reality must be truth, a truth beyond a shadow of a doubt. And for me, I cannot relate to anything being reality when I hear of so many different reports, and many times in actual contradiction and not just a variation of accounts of what lies beyond the physical world. Truth is, and must always be in agreement with itself. As I maintain and believe, Reality, being equal to Truth, must also be in agreement with itself. And as the old saying goes, "the truth will set you free." I must first come to an agreement with myself, as others should do the same, and then Truth will set us all free from all doubts, even from those doubts beyond any shadow of the physical world. To see the truth of reality is to be enlightened, and able to see beyond all shadows of doubts. Or as an ancient sage once said about shadows on walls...picture this!

It's very difficult for man to relate to anything that has not been personally experienced, especially those things that, apparently, only a very small minority are able to experience, such as; NDEs, OBEs, and Psychic abilities. And even among those of us who believe to have had some sort of experience with any of these unusual phenomena, it's very difficult to find common ground. Obviously all these conditions, when not in agreement, will generate doubt in various degrees, some more, and some less.

I'm not attempting to question the validity of anyone's beliefs or/and experiences with nonphysical phenomena. I'm on a path to find common ground, which is the fertile ground where the seed of truth can be successfully planted. And from which the plant of reality can grow and flourish to the point of bearing the ripe fruit of truth, which can then be freely picked by all, and not just by a privy few. But who's to say if the truth be yours or mine, or his or hers, or ours or theirs? God only knows. But then we all know that there can be but one truth!

Native son, You actually hit the nail on the head in terms of what is real to us on a personal level. In essence this is the reason why soul is incarnated here in the first place so that it may know itself by its own experience. This is true for both inner and outer realities. In time one comes to understand that both are in fact interwind. As the old saying goes so above so below. Having had a NDE and OBEs I have no doubt in my mind that there is much more to our universe then just the physicals body. However you must experience this for yourself in order for it to become real to you. A good book for you to read is Adventures Beyond the body by William Buhulman. He like you thought the same thing and decide to prove it to him shelf that all this talk about other dimension was make believe. However while doing the exercises to learn conscious out of the body travel to disprove this he discovered he was totally wrong in his assumption of the nature of reality. And now he had more questions than answers that laid before him. As a new level of reality open up for him.

In the Hindu religion it is believed that our physical universe is in reality Maya or illusion. That this world in which we live in is created to trapped soul into thinking that nothing else exists beyond this physicals reality. That we are the body and that once we die that is it. Lights out nothing else. And for the most part it does a find job in doing so. Soul will go from birth, life and death over and over again never knowing it's true nature as a spiritual being simply because it has been caught up in this cycle of maya and reincarnation for so long that it is lost in the Maya of this world. However there comes a time along the souls journey where it tire's of all this and starts to question the true nature of reality itself. In time as soul evolves its starts unraveling the Maya of this world and discovers that there is more to reality then what the physical senses tell us. This however is a personal inward journey that each of us must take along the way to enlightenment. And it is a unique experience to each individual. So it is important to keep a open mind. Without opens minds we would still be living in the dark ages without the technology and sciences we now experience in this time frame in human history. It takes courage and in sight to dare what is impossible now. However all reality starts inward with the mind. And it is mind that actually shapes all reality both inner and outer. This is more evident in the higher dimensions where matter is much more refine and is able to respond to thought far easier and faster. The same process works here as well however it take much longer to create reality here due to the heavy, dense nature of physical matter which limits soul in it's ability to create and manifest reality here. It's all the same universe just difference aspects of it.

Remember that truth is different for every man. It's a matter of perspective from ones view point and experience of reality within consciousness itself. It's good that you question things. However your own truth in the nature of reality lies in your ability to make it a living reality to yourself.

Happy journey to you my friend.

Love and peace P.

 

[Native Son]

Oh, how many centuries we have searched for Proof. What drives us to do that? As much as I've experienced I believe it was metered-out to meet what I needed rather than what I wanted. If we are here to learn something would it be best to read or talk about the experience, experience it and realize it later, or re-live it?

Since I was shown that when I was four years old, I've never doubted that. In fact, seeing what you wrote was nearly the first time.

Ken, what you quoted as being asked by me "...are you accepting the claim that to think you are "in" a body is true? was actually a question posed to be by David.

And regarding the popular idea that souls are here to learn, I don't believe we are here to learn anything. I have said this here before. But I do believe that we are here for a reason. The reason? Only God knows the reason, for certain. But here is what I think.

I think that God, as some ancient sages tell us, is our Father and THE Creator of All. And our Father entertains us all. He does it in a way that we are not even aware of it part of the time. At least in a way that we cannot be certain that we are being entertained while acting our parts in the physical world. I believe God, like the best of story tellers, writes staged plays where we are all part, both as spectators and actors, and there are an infinite quantity of different stories God has written, and these sit on an infinite sized library. When we are the spectators we are in that other world and fully aware of who and what we really are, since we are in the world of reality. But when we are acting, we, usually nearly all of us, are not aware of reality, and we perceive the stage we are acting on, the physical world, to be our reality. To be clear, only when the soul is free from our acting costume, the body, does it realize reality. And reality is realizing that the body is only an acting costume we wear, since the soul, in-between acting roles, becomes a spectator sitting in the audience. In others words, while we are in the other world we are knowing spectators, and while in this one we are unaware actors, acting out the great stories God writes/Has written. To communicate this image I have on God being THE Master storyteller, and entertaining us, His little children, over and over, in eternity, is to point out a movie scene from the movie about Hans Christian Andersen, and the part being played by one of my favorite comedy actors, Danny Kay.

 

[Native Son]

Native son, You actually hit the nail on the head in terms of what is real to us on a personal level. In essence this is the reason why soul is incarnated here in the first place so that it may know itself by its own experience. This is true for both inner and outer realities. In time one comes to understand that both are in fact interwind. As the old saying goes so above so below. Having had a NDE and OBEs I have no doubt in my mind that there is much more to our universe then just the physicals body. However you must experience this for yourself in order for it to become real to you. A good book for you to read is Adventures Beyond the body by William Buhulman. He like you thought the same thing and decide to prove it to him shelf that all this talk about other dimension was make believe. However while doing the exercises to learn conscious out of the body travel to disprove this he discovered he was totally wrong in his assumption of the nature of reality. And now he had more questions than answers that laid before him. As a new level of reality open up for him.

In the Hindu religion it is believed that our physical universe is in reality Maya or illusion. That this world in which we live in is created to trapped soul into thinking that nothing else exists beyond this physicals reality. That we are the body and that once we die that is it. Lights out nothing else. And for the most part it does a find job in doing so. Soul will go from birth, life and death over and over again never knowing it's true nature as a spiritual being simply because it has been caught up in this cycle of maya and reincarnation for so long that it is lost in the Maya of this world. However there comes a time along the souls journey where it tire's of all this and starts to question the true nature of reality itself. In time as soul evolves its starts unraveling the Maya of this world and discovers that there is more to reality then what the physical senses tell us. This however is a personal inward journey that each of us must take along the way to enlightenment. And it is a unique experience to each individual. So it is important to keep a open mind. Without opens minds we would still be living in the dark ages without the technology and sciences we now experience in this time frame in human history. It takes courage and in sight to dare what is impossible now. However all reality starts inward with the mind. And it is mind that actually shapes all reality both inner and outer. This is more evident in the higher dimensions where matter is much more refine and is able to respond to thought far easier and faster. The same process works here as well however it take much longer to create reality here due to the heavy, dense nature of physical matter which limits soul in it's ability to create and manifest reality here. It's all the same universe just difference aspects of it.

Remember that truth is different for every man. It's a matter of perspective from ones view point and experience of reality within consciousness itself. It's good that you question things. However your own truth in the nature of reality lies in your ability to make it a living reality to yourself.

Happy journey to you my friend.

Love and peace P.

If I were a hammer I would take pride in having hit the nail on the head. But I'm afraid that I may have only hit my finger while holding the nail up. But without a doubt it's imperative that we all keep an open mind, as you suggest we do. But we must always seek the objective reality, and not our personal one. Reality is the same for you and me, if it is indeed Reality. When we have personal reality, and which is different from others' reality, it can never be certain of being the real Reality. What we have with personal realities are not the truth, but mere opinions of reality. However, one can have a true opinion, which is arrived at, not by knowing, but by accident. Although it should be admitted that someone's accident can be better arrived at than others.' A well plotted opinion can come closer to the truth than a mere opinion shot at a random direction, or shot in the dark.
Best regards, and keep close, if we are traveling towards the same destination....the unknown truth of existence.

 

[Native Son]

Hi again, Native Son. Gradually I begin to gather how unique and diverse people's perspectives are. And this only comes to me as a result of people intelligently sharing their perspectives. Sometimes these type of discussions get very deep and complex. Even a simple word such as "astral" is clearly understood by so very few human beings, myself included. I could only venture to say what " isn't" astral- ie, matter. Having read " A Course in Miracles" and found it to be as if fictitious is an indicator of the huge gap between our views of reality. I find the book irrefutable, basically: so very deep and true- and challenging. Reading it is not the same as doing the Lessons. The source/author may largely be addressing those who believe that he exists and is capable of writing his own life story (in another book) through a practitioner of ACIM (Tina L. Spalding). I mentioned that 'my Jesus' is NOT the popular Jesus, because the popular Jesus is a fabrication of churches and human belief systems. I have seen 'my Jesus' and have friends who see him now and then, today. I MUST distinguish between the Jesus you accredit, based upon normal sources, and mine, who is active, free and busy trying to re-present his teaching, his original teaching, his current teachings - because they are worlds apart, one being actual and one a myth of variant descriptions and priorities. But, since his own major book, ACIMiracles does not impress you, I will retire from trying to introduce to you "my" current" Jesus/Jeshua . At least my experienced Jesus does not put terms on people as if they must believe in him lest they anguish indefinitely in the fires of a hell his 'loving' "Father" purportedly keeps stoked and aflame while non-compliants exist. I am including what may well be the text from the Autobiography which you have read. I have no problem with it, as you might gather:
"I have come at this time, in this place, and through this being to speak my truth, to speak the story of my life — the true story of my life."

The purpose of this book is to clarify, to tell the truth, and to share my energies with you so that you can begin the transformation of your mind and, therefore, the transformation of your heart and your world. It is in the misteachings that have been associated with my name that much death and pain has been caused and that much guilt and self-recrimination has been expressed. That was not my purpose; that was not my lesson.

This story will begin the change. It will not make the change. It will facilitate turning the key in the lock, but you must open the door and walk through it into a new realm that is opened by this information. That is your responsibility. We can only bring you the message, this channel and I. We can only work together to transmit the information, but it is through your actions and your transformation that you will see a change in your world, a change in the subjective world that is manufactured from your beliefs, your thoughts, and your feelings.

I talk about the truth of my birth and the truth of my life. I cover some stories that are recounted in the Bible and tell you the true story of those events. I describe some of my personal traits, my human traits, and I define what I am, who I am, and why these things happened. You will be able to understand the truth, and you will begin this reconditioning, this retooling of your mind — of your thoughts and beliefs — on this subject of my life, my meaning, and my purpose, for it is a long process. The time is ripe. The need for a spiritual revolution is here.

— Jesus

I am surprised that on such limited information, you would determine that Jesus did not write his own story. since eternal life is such a big part of his teaching, it blows me away how most North America "believers" dismiss his every attempt to carry on with it! They want to keep their Jesus on the pages of The Book within their walls and beneath their spires.

David, it would certainly be interesting to me to find out a little more about the Jesus/Jeshua you first saw in Toronto. But regarding a discussion, or rather a book review on Jesus' autobiography, would not be considered appropriate here, since it involves the channeling of spirits.

It is rather an interesting statement that you made, this one. "" I MUST distinguish between the Jesus you accredit, based upon normal sources, and mine, who is active, free and busy trying to re-present his teaching, his original teaching, his current teachings - because they are worlds apart, one being actual and one a myth of variant descriptions and priorities. But, since his own major book, ACIMiracles does not impress you, I will retire from trying to introduce to you "my" current" Jesus/Jeshua." The interest I would have is mainly in what I have made bold in your statement above.

And to just get an idea of what you consider actual and what is myth, I suppose the following parable, which comes from the normal sources, the Gospel of Matthew, you would consider as being a myth, and something that your active Jesus would be attempting to re-present? And how would an active Jesus re-present it? Editing the parable to re-present the implied meaning perhaps? Or, perhaps Jesus would just cross it out entirely?

There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit. But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.“The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said. Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”

But perhaps this parable, as well as all the other parables mentioned in the traditional 4 New Testament Gospels, are re-presented in Jesus' autobiography written by Ms. Spalding, since I have not read the autobiography in full?

But then again, we have the Gnostic Gospels found in Egypt in 1945, were these the works of Jesus' earlier attempt to re-present His teachings?

I do recall, if I'm not mistaken, and I may be, that Dr. Stevenson, an expert in the field of reincarnation associated with children's memories of previous lives, frowned on psychic channeling and kept it entirely out from his scientific research and published studies. I also tend to discount nearly all psychics who claim to be channeling other worldly spirits, especially if claiming to be channeling Jesus. Most likely all those spirits have actually reincarnated already, and are perhaps you and I, or some other person living among us. Jesus is entirely another story, if anyone claims that He too is said to have reincarnated several times, and we need to discuss Edgar Cayce on that. And I'm 99% certain that, if Jesus wanted to set the record straight about Himself, He would not have waited so long, as to only be getting it straight in recent times. It would be logical that JC would have channeled directly with Matthew, Luke, Mark, and John, demanding they edit their Gospels to reflect some of what Ms. Spalding is getting through the grapevine only now? JC would not have let things get out of hand for so long. And it would have been better, as Judah Iscariot sings to us, if Jesus had come today, since Israel had no mass communication back then.

Don't get me wrong, as I too only want to know the truth!
Peace and love is always closer to truth.

 

[Speedwell]

Regarding the idea of the storyteller, a thought occurred to me recently. I had been watching quite a lot of films on TV. It didn't seem to matter much to me whether the film was particularly good, the important thing was I hadn't seen that film before, I watched it because I was curious as to how the story would unfold, how it would end.

I think our lives are a bit like that, there may be a bit of a script, but I don't think it is known how it will turn out. That may be one reason we are here, to see what will happen if we try something, put ourselves in some situation or other. We might guess in advance how we might react if placed in such a situation, but it is not until we actually live it, act and react and make decisions, that we ourselves write the story, we fill in the unknown parts ourselves. We have the ability to create, not merely to have been created.

Well, just some of my thoughts anyway.

 

[KenJ]

Native Son, I personally feel the same as what you explained with the exception of sitting in the audience part. Perhaps that happens for a while, but there is a lot of work to do there. I have had very attentive guides, and if Deloris Cannon can be believed, then there is the designing and building of future life forms. There would be a need for helpers and some type of organization to give feedback and work with other Souls for many other reasons like welcoming, supporting, and other needed services.

The part I don't understand about some reports is their talking about their houses. Why would housing be necessary? Is there a Second-Act to the lifetime performance?

 

[Jaimie]

I have a little trouble with the issue that I have never experienced remembering seeing the light, going through the tunnel, when experiencing how I died in two past lives. I was stuck to the bodies, watching them, trying to get into them again. Then I think I was stuck for real, I saw everything that was going on in the real life, but they didn't see me. I do wonder what exactly I was at that point, a left over of consciousness from the dead body or someone "powerful" remembering my spirit's abilities ?? I did not feel very powerful, that is for sure...

 

[Polaris8]

I have a little trouble with the issue that I have never experienced remembering seeing the light, going through the tunnel, when experiencing how I died in two past lives. I was stuck to the bodies, watching them, trying to get into them again. Then I think I was stuck for real, I saw everything that was going on in the real life, but they didn't see me. I do wonder what exactly I was at that point, a left over of consciousness from the dead body or someone "powerful" remembering my spirit's abilities ?? I did not feel very powerful, that is for sure...

Jamie, There are a lot of souls that don't see the light when they cross over. Or don't remember it anyway. One of the things I have discovered over the years is that having had a NDE myself and seeing the light I have come to realized that the light that one sees is not outside of ones shelf. It is a light that actually comes from within. For it is the light of divine consciousness that exists in each soul. This is why Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is within you seek and you shall fine. So in order to see this light one must place their awareness and attention within not outwards thru the physical senses. One can actually do this while doing spiritual exercises like meditating or contemplation. As they focus our awareness inward by closing our eyes and placing our attention on the third eye. This is the window or chakra that soul uses while incarnated to contact with inner worlds of spirit. And yes you can see the light while doing this as I have had the experiences once. However the light became so bright that it filled my head with it and my body started feeling very warm so I had to stop as it was too much for me at the time. Usually my third eye is open and I can see colors, shapes or even mental images floating passed my field of vision while my eyes are closed. Which at first is kind of weird but you get used to it.

So when we die soul goes inward shifting consciousness away from the physical body and centers itself in the astral body as it prepares for the separations of the astral body from the physical as the sliver cord snaps. During this time many see the light as consciousness moves inward towards the light as it enters the next dimension which is on a much higher frequency or vibration than the physical. However some souls don't always do this has they are too focus on the physical plane which causes the consciousness to keep seeking its attention outward as it has done while in the physical world. This is why they don't see the light. So what happens is they are temporary cut off from both planes of existences since they are no longer in the physical anymore and they did not cross over correctly into the light so they can't converse with souls that exist on the middle and higher astral plane. So they are kind of stuck in the lower astral for a time which is kind of a scary place to be in as it is dark, cold and devoid of all love, kindness and light within it. However if they are open to it other souls that are astral helpers help them make the transition by telling them to seek the light from within the self. This usually works and they make the transition to the place the should have been.

After all some people in life get lost along the way here in the physicals world and seem like they just can't cope here. So it makes senses that some souls get lost along the way during the transition we call death. Anyway I hope this helps some in your understanding of the light. Just remember always you are the light of the world....

Love and peace P.