SeaAndSky
Senior Registered
This thread is a continuation and transfer of a discussion that began under the Ted Bundy thread recently between SeaAndSky and Jim78 related to what I am terming Super Soul Groups, which is really an attempt to come up with a suitable name for an observed tendency, at least in indigenous cultures (and probably in more traditional cultures) towards intra-ethnic/cultural reincarnation. Obviously, I am looking for the right terminology here. This could be the result of past life vows, the continuing goal of being close to other family/soul group members that are doing the same thing, or ??. Overall, the topic relates to pre-existing threads related to Animistic Reincarnation, PL Vows, sense of affiliation with a certain country or people, etc. It also relates to a large number of posts/threads by Jim78 dealing with his PLs working for and on behalf of Irish independence, etc. and trying to cope with the violent consequences of this quest. I have sought to cut and paste as necessary to provide an adequate lead-in to the conversation.
(2) So, beginning observations by S&S:
t appears that we often enter into our lifetimes with knowledge of the bad things that are certain or almost certain to happen to us during those lifetimes. To that extent, at least, it appears that we accept the price we must "pay for admission", a kind of tacit agreement to the negative consequences we may experience. This doesn't mean that we "approve" of the evil that may be done to us, only that we are willing to pay that price for what will be accomplished (or perhaps otherwise experienced). And, what may be accomplished may be a lot bigger than what we individually suffer or gain.
The last thought came to me because of conversations I was having with a Jewish colleague a while back, who continued to have trouble with God because of the Holocaust. I knew and he knew that the modern state of Israel would not exist without the Holocaust, something that was and is very positive from the standpoint of most Jews. But God allowing (or perhaps predestining) the slaughter of millions of Jews in order to bring that about certainly puts a very negative spin on the way God works. However, I later wondered about the Jewish souls that entered those lifetimes. (If you have some familiarity with Jewish reincarnation beliefs, you will know that they hold that Jews reincarnate almost always as Jews--which is not that far-fetched in view of some of the things determined about intra-ethnic reincarnation in traditional cultures by Stevenson and others). From that perspective, I had to wonder how many of these spirits quite willingly subjected themselves to the forces of evil and took on the price of martyrdom in order to see the ancient dream of the Jews fulfilled. It may be this way in other cases as well. For better or worse, wise or unwise, I think many would be quite willing to take on a lifetime where they knew they would die violently if it would help establish their own independent nation. The Jews and the Irish seem to have felt this way historically.
(2) Response from Jim:
Hi S&S. I'd love to hear more about intra-ethnic reincarnation and Jews reincarnating as Jews.
I ask because I myself seem to be linked to Irish unity. The only time Ireland was unified was under Brian Boru in the early 11th century. I've worked towards Irish unity also in the 18th, 20th and 21st centuries.
Its like Ireland draws my soul like a moth to a flame. It would be a great relief to me to know that I agreed to make the sacrifices I made to help progress the Irish race. Much better than just thinking I'm here to spread evil. Could you elaborate on what Stevenson found and what something like my souls repeated Irish incarnations actually might mean please?
(3) Further from S&S:
Of the three steams of Judaism--Orthodox, Conservative, and Reformed--only the Orthodox (who tend to be very associated with Kabbalah) tend to be really strong believers in reincarnation. So, I should have limited my comment to Orthodox Jews, though I think that many other Jews also believe. In any case, it is my understanding that this belief in part confirms and adheres to the fact that all of the Jews made a promise for themselves and their descendants to obey the Torah law given at Sinai forever, and so they return as Jews over and over again--obeying the laws and trying to make the world a better place by doing so. You can find a great many Youtube videos by Orthodox Jews on the subject of reincarnation ("Gilgul") if you want to look, as well as a lot of internet info. Wikipedia can also be a good source. I think there are also organizations that reach out to find and incorporate people who feel like they "should have been born Jewish", etc.--i.e., got born in the wrong ethnicity.
This is not really out of place with other traditional societies that believe in reincarnation. Ian Stevenson's research was mostly with such groups, such as the Druse, Hindus, etc. In those cases, reincarnation not only typically took place in the same ethnic group, but often very close by physically or in the same family. Many American Indian tribes also held such beliefs, and I have heard the same about a lot of other indigenous groups from Africa and elsewhere. In many of these groups, it was apparently not unusual to "recognize" a child as being great-grandpa or grandma come back and to name them accordingly.
I heard somewhere that the ancient Celts also held such beliefs. But, no time to do much research, so I'm open to correction on any mistakes I have made. I think the interesting thing is that what is generally referred to as "Western Civilization" is not necessarily in sync with these tendencies. It seems that we are the exception--not the rule (though we may become the rule in these matters) in terms of coming back over a wider area geographically as well as ethnically. The whole thing is one of those background questions that need more analysis--are we that different, or is it just because Western Civilization is so wide-spread (so that you could be born all over the place and still be part of it)? If we are that different--why?
PS--I think you understand very well why I mentioned the Irish in my last post. And yes, I think that a large number of "Irish" souls (including you) have been struggling over the last millenia to safeguard and/or obtain Irish freedom and progress--often living and taking on lives where they knew they would die violently. People sneer at Nationalism as being counter to progress and the source of great evils. However, all I have seen is that those who will not protect their turf will have it taken by others. (It's a hard world). Also, it appears that souls are associated with not just a small soul group, but by being part of a traditional society over hundreds or thousands of years can and would form tangled spiritual kinship relationships/groups (such as the Jews) who form super-groupings with shared loyalties and duties towards each other. I doubt this always leads to good things, but I'm not convinced that it inevitably leads to bad things either (as the Jews and the Irish may have proved).
CONT'D
(2) So, beginning observations by S&S:
t appears that we often enter into our lifetimes with knowledge of the bad things that are certain or almost certain to happen to us during those lifetimes. To that extent, at least, it appears that we accept the price we must "pay for admission", a kind of tacit agreement to the negative consequences we may experience. This doesn't mean that we "approve" of the evil that may be done to us, only that we are willing to pay that price for what will be accomplished (or perhaps otherwise experienced). And, what may be accomplished may be a lot bigger than what we individually suffer or gain.
The last thought came to me because of conversations I was having with a Jewish colleague a while back, who continued to have trouble with God because of the Holocaust. I knew and he knew that the modern state of Israel would not exist without the Holocaust, something that was and is very positive from the standpoint of most Jews. But God allowing (or perhaps predestining) the slaughter of millions of Jews in order to bring that about certainly puts a very negative spin on the way God works. However, I later wondered about the Jewish souls that entered those lifetimes. (If you have some familiarity with Jewish reincarnation beliefs, you will know that they hold that Jews reincarnate almost always as Jews--which is not that far-fetched in view of some of the things determined about intra-ethnic reincarnation in traditional cultures by Stevenson and others). From that perspective, I had to wonder how many of these spirits quite willingly subjected themselves to the forces of evil and took on the price of martyrdom in order to see the ancient dream of the Jews fulfilled. It may be this way in other cases as well. For better or worse, wise or unwise, I think many would be quite willing to take on a lifetime where they knew they would die violently if it would help establish their own independent nation. The Jews and the Irish seem to have felt this way historically.
(2) Response from Jim:
Hi S&S. I'd love to hear more about intra-ethnic reincarnation and Jews reincarnating as Jews.
I ask because I myself seem to be linked to Irish unity. The only time Ireland was unified was under Brian Boru in the early 11th century. I've worked towards Irish unity also in the 18th, 20th and 21st centuries.
Its like Ireland draws my soul like a moth to a flame. It would be a great relief to me to know that I agreed to make the sacrifices I made to help progress the Irish race. Much better than just thinking I'm here to spread evil. Could you elaborate on what Stevenson found and what something like my souls repeated Irish incarnations actually might mean please?
(3) Further from S&S:
Of the three steams of Judaism--Orthodox, Conservative, and Reformed--only the Orthodox (who tend to be very associated with Kabbalah) tend to be really strong believers in reincarnation. So, I should have limited my comment to Orthodox Jews, though I think that many other Jews also believe. In any case, it is my understanding that this belief in part confirms and adheres to the fact that all of the Jews made a promise for themselves and their descendants to obey the Torah law given at Sinai forever, and so they return as Jews over and over again--obeying the laws and trying to make the world a better place by doing so. You can find a great many Youtube videos by Orthodox Jews on the subject of reincarnation ("Gilgul") if you want to look, as well as a lot of internet info. Wikipedia can also be a good source. I think there are also organizations that reach out to find and incorporate people who feel like they "should have been born Jewish", etc.--i.e., got born in the wrong ethnicity.
This is not really out of place with other traditional societies that believe in reincarnation. Ian Stevenson's research was mostly with such groups, such as the Druse, Hindus, etc. In those cases, reincarnation not only typically took place in the same ethnic group, but often very close by physically or in the same family. Many American Indian tribes also held such beliefs, and I have heard the same about a lot of other indigenous groups from Africa and elsewhere. In many of these groups, it was apparently not unusual to "recognize" a child as being great-grandpa or grandma come back and to name them accordingly.
I heard somewhere that the ancient Celts also held such beliefs. But, no time to do much research, so I'm open to correction on any mistakes I have made. I think the interesting thing is that what is generally referred to as "Western Civilization" is not necessarily in sync with these tendencies. It seems that we are the exception--not the rule (though we may become the rule in these matters) in terms of coming back over a wider area geographically as well as ethnically. The whole thing is one of those background questions that need more analysis--are we that different, or is it just because Western Civilization is so wide-spread (so that you could be born all over the place and still be part of it)? If we are that different--why?
PS--I think you understand very well why I mentioned the Irish in my last post. And yes, I think that a large number of "Irish" souls (including you) have been struggling over the last millenia to safeguard and/or obtain Irish freedom and progress--often living and taking on lives where they knew they would die violently. People sneer at Nationalism as being counter to progress and the source of great evils. However, all I have seen is that those who will not protect their turf will have it taken by others. (It's a hard world). Also, it appears that souls are associated with not just a small soul group, but by being part of a traditional society over hundreds or thousands of years can and would form tangled spiritual kinship relationships/groups (such as the Jews) who form super-groupings with shared loyalties and duties towards each other. I doubt this always leads to good things, but I'm not convinced that it inevitably leads to bad things either (as the Jews and the Irish may have proved).
CONT'D
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