Time as relative and non-sequential

Hello,

I haven't posted here in a long time and can't quite remember whether I have ever started a thread or not, however...

Lately I've been experiencing a lot of 'Deja Vous' (gosh I hope I've spelt it right - although I usually refer to it as 'Bon Voyage') in everday conversations and through sight. I feel like I have seen almost everything before. I used to have dreams of everyday life which entirely came true, but now it just seems like I'm living things over.

I am wondering whether many people experience this and whether they have their own interpretations of what it is (besides the short-term, long-term memory sections of the brain becoming confused etc...). But might this be because I have moved to a country where I know I have had a past life, therefore things are very similar?

Or maybe, just maybe, do you think that time does not move in a linear sequence? I say this with reference to people having visions of 'future lives', images of what will happen in the future, or deja vous (yeek).

Could it be that we may live this life over and over (with the thought that nothing is 'material' and everything is conscious)? And could it be that we move back and forth through lives in different periods depending on our stage of spiritual development? Or could it be that all lives are parallel, still again only existing in our consciousness?

I know that these questions are impossible to answer, but I just wondered whether anyone was having similar thoughts to me. Or whether you feel that you have any insight into what might be happening.

Hi kuka,

Nice to see you around again

In my opinion time and space are simply things we perceive to be -- in this state of consciousness.

Michael Talbot explains time quite well in his book "The Holographic Universe". Here is an excerpt:

Bohm's notion that the flow of time is the product of a constant series of unfoldings and enfoldings suggests that as the present enfolds and becomes part of the past, it does not cease to exist, but simply returns to the cosmic storehouse of the implicate. Or as Bohm puts it "The past is active in the present as a kind of implicate order."

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You might be interested in this thread -- [thread=335]A Question on Simultaneous Lives[/thread]

Ailish

Hi Kuka
You might want to take a look at this thread [thread=11227] Denial, re-running & Extreme Opposites [/thread]

The times that I have noticed my self in a repeating pattern I made a counsious decision to break some part of it and start something new. One way to look at them is a resting place especially if what you are exsperienceing is relitively comfortable and even mundain.

Jack

Wow! Thank you both for your replies! I'll definitely check out both threads. Because of course, if we begin to think of time as non-linear and as you stated Michael Talbot explained that occurences do not cease to exist after they have happened, then that would explain why our 'memories' or our tracks of though/existence, are not bodily bound.

And why possibly, when we're having pastlife flash-backs or memories, they may not even be memories (in the biological sense) at all, but us tapping into other states of consciousness and other modes of experience which are somehow linked to us through potentially us who have lived these experiences.

Wow. But now I'll stop blabbering and will check out the threads.

Oh and sorry Jack, about that breaking with what seems familiar. Interestingly enough, that is now what I am interested in pursuing within my current environment. I'm actually attracted to all familiar experiences in a sense as a sort of creative inspiration as well as out of pure curiousity.

However, I do feel that nine years ago my breaking with familiarity actually saved my life (this life). At that stage I had seen everything before a few years earlier and knew that the end result would be a car accident as the result of a certain situation.

It's amazing how you just know that certain choices not only save your life, but completely turn it around in directions you would never imagine. (on that note, certainly hopefully when I'm in other/'future' lives I'll want to re-call this one)

HI Kuka,

I thought you might enjoy Gary Zukav's quote from his book The Seat of the Soul -

“From the point of view of the soul, all of its incarnations are simultaneous. All personalities exist at once. Therefore, the release of negativity that occurs in one of the soul's incarnations benefits not only itself, but all of its soul's other incarnations also. Because the soul, itself, is not confined to time, the past of a personality, as well as its future, is enhanced when a personality releases currents of fear and doubt.”
Seat of the Soul

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Dear Deborah

That's just a wonderful quote! It explains a heck of a lot, including why I feel good about all of my possible incarnations/visions/memories etc. - the good, the bad and the yeek...

I feel somehow by not denying that there's more than one version/incarnation of anyone at anyone time, then there really is no such thing as death.

One more thing, the thread about denial, re-running and extreme opposites is so interesting, and so on the ball with what I have been thinking. I don't know why I didn't see it before.

Thanks again!

kuka said:

Or maybe, just maybe, do you think that time does not move in a linear sequence?

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Time does not move. Everything else moves in time. Perception of sequence arises from this movement in time. It is neither helpful nor insightful to think of time as non-sequential. What is important is to know that time is consequential. Past and present are related by karma.

kris0503 said:

It is neither helpful nor insightful to think of time as non-sequential.

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Why not? Many physicists have spoken about time – and it NOT being sequential. So...how is it not insightful or helpful?

"Time is neither linear nor sequential” (p. 136, Time, Space, and Knowledge, by Tarthang Tulku)

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Behind the scenes of our cognitive perception, time can fold in on itself, and it can flow in over-lapping spirals, bringing up synchronicities and deja-vu impressions, prescient dreams, the disappearance and reappearance of objects etc. Such events are not explainable from the perspective of sequential time.

Thoughts, feelings and memory all lie outside the frame work of sequential time – and we all experience these frequently. Once the perception of time-space boundaries becomes more flexible, you can sense that all of life is flowing in a continuum of consciousness – and that we all respond interactively.

Time and space are fragments of the infinite for the use of finite creatures. ~ Henri Frederic Amiel

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Personally, I would say that past and present are related through experience.

The laws of science do not distinguish between the past and the future. - Stephen W. Hawking

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Ailish

Many physicists have spoken about time – and it NOT being sequential. So...how is it not insightful or helpful?

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Just because some physicists have said so doesn't make it either helpful or insightful. I don't find it helpful. For centuries, people have been fed nonsense in the name of some prophet, messiah or messenger of God. Are you telling me now that the last word belongs to some physicists? Are these our new prophets?

Behind the scenes of our cognitive perception, time can fold in on itself, and it can flow in over-lapping spirals, bringing up synchronicities and deja-vu impressions, prescient dreams, the disappearance and reappearance of objects etc.

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Time is an objective reality. Our ability to reach out and race ahead of it to see past or future comes from the nature of consciousness. Time runs its own merry course through it all.

Thoughts, feelings and memory all lie outside the frame work of sequential time – and we all experience these frequently.

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I experience them all the time, ...... in time.

Once the perception of time-space boundaries becomes more flexible, you can sense that all of life is flowing in a continuum of consciousness – and that we all respond interactively.

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We respond interactively irrespective of how we perceive time.

Personally, I would say that past and present are related through experience.

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Time makes experience possible.

Kris -

Just because some physicists have said so doesn't make it either helpful or insightful. I don't find it helpful.

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I cannot imagine it not being a possibility, their research has been very helpful to me. You stated on your website the following: -

It is not so much that god allows suffering, but rather god accommodates all possibilities. God's infinitude, by definition, has to accommodate all possibilities. Any other way, would require god to impose artificial constraints. Then our lives would be less than full and this creation would be less than whole.

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On another note - I am curious; since when have physicists been equated with prophets? Where did Aili even mention a prophet?

For centuries, people have been fed nonsense in the name of some prophet, messiah or messenger of God. Are you telling me now that the last word belongs to some physicists? Are these our new prophets?

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For centuries, people have been fed nonsense in the name of some prophet, messiah or messenger of God.

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Okay --- but what does that have to do with science? We're discussing theories of time -- not religion. Since you brought it up, though -- in between the “nonsense” are also words of value --good, moral lessons – lessons on life, on love, on relationships. One just has to be able to look deep enough to find the true message and wisdom within.

Are you telling me now that the last word belongs to some physicists? Are these our new prophets?

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Did I compare physicists to prophets anywhere in my post? I don’t believe I did. I was simply stating a proven fact – many physicists have stated that time is not sequential. That’s nothing new.

Just because some physicists have said so doesn't make it either helpful or insightful. I don't find it helpful.

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I am simply sharing. No one asked you to believe it, nor do you have to -- that is your right. You need to follow your own path – and do what feels right to you. But don’t tell others that they aren’t being insightful because they choose to question science and the laws of nature. Knowledge is one of the most important gifts we can give to ourselves -- to discourage that within others is just not right.

Time is an objective reality

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Sure -- as long as we are engaged in it. At its deeper level reality is a sort of superhologram in which the past, present, and future all exist simultaneously. Time is a fabrication of the human mind, created only to have a measurement for regulated change. Time is an idea, a concept, but exists only as these -- nothing else.

As Kant says about space and time "As appearances, they cannot exist in themselves, but only in us."

"When asked, 'What did God do before he created the universe?' St. Augustine didn't reply, 'he was preparing Hell for people who asked such questions.' Instead, he said that time was a property of the universe that God created, and that time did not exist before the beginning of the universe.” - Stephen Hawking

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Ailish

It is neither helpful nor insightful to think of time as non-sequential.

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This is my observation. You can see my signature below where I said it. I don't find it helpful to think of time as non-sequential. I don't think that is insightful. While non-sequential time may be a possibility, it is defintely not a fact. Many physicists have said time is non-sequential is not a sufficient reason for me to accept that as a fact. To give that as a reason is to adopt an attitude and posture of religions. After all, many people have "proved" to me that reincarnation is false by quoting some prophet in the Bible.

Time is a fabrication of the human mind, created only to have a measurement for regulated change.

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I can assure you that I my mind did not fabricate it.

time did not exist before the beginning of the universe

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I think we are already on the wrong track when we speak of beginning of the universe.

Kris,

To give that as a reason is to adopt an attitude and posture of religions.

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The reason I find it intriguing - is that I have experienced it. It has nothing to do with religions.

During my philosophizing about the concept of time several years ago I eventually came to the conclusion that the concept is a slightly complex answer.

Time is simply a form of concurrent motion (or energy), basically space is always being overlapped by a future/past within your present awareness.

Essentially, the past/present/future is running at the same time in motion. You see the results of the past in your present, and the future sees the results of your decisions in their present. But since it is all in motion at the same time, you do not realize/process it (no matter the time period you are presently aware of).

I love this topic!

Thanks for asking this question, Kuka. I wonder about time often and I think the subject of reincarnation is even more fascinating when considered in the realm of time as non-sequential and full of flux. I also think it helps answer a lot of mysteries, including why people might remember two lives during the same "era" (only different--are they in different dimensions, then?) or why we have deja vu. I recently posted somewhere about my husband's strong feelings of deja vu just before we relocated with his job. As an example, if not of deja vu, then a kind of synchronicity, he said he had wanted to hear that Joan Jett song, "Put Another Dime In The Jukebox" because he hadn't heard it in ages. The very next song the radio played was that song. Later that day, he called me up and said he was having a deja vu at that very moment. "I am having deja vu talking to you about having a deja vu. It's very weird. I have had deja vu all day long, I have been working and doing the same thing over again, as if I'm supposed to do something right this time." I might add that my husband usually scoffs at the very idea of deja vu and reincarnation, etc. and always plays devil's advocate when I mention it, etc. My daughter routinely has feelings of deja vu. Just last night, she said, "I had a deja vu that you would say that and you did!"

So I think about deja vu a lot. It's almost as if we are all aware of what goes on at all times, simutaneously, even while we perceive time only moving forward. That would explain precognition and deja vu, etc.

Thanks for the post,
Kim

kris0503 said:

I think we are already on the wrong track when we speak of beginning of the universe.

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I really enjoy your posts Kris, not because I tend not to agree with you, but because you always give me something to think about and ponder. That's why I hadn't replied in this thread till now, I was still pondering. I have great respect for those who make me think, and wish more folks did.

Your comment which I quoted above is one of the few things you've posted that I agree with, and I'll use it to cast doubt on your other comments. The beginning of the universe has little bearing on real time, if there is real time, nor on much else that influences us as spiritual individuals.

Most of your arguments look at spiritual or cosmic matter from a human viewpoint. That would be fine if it was with the purpose of studying and maybe understanding it all a bit better. But you seem to have made an effort to "create your own reality" and them explain the universe, and everything and everyone that is in it, to fit your reality. Wrong.

The beauty and mystery of life, both human and spiritual, is that for each and everyone one of us, your rule applies. Reality is whatever we perceive it to be is a fact, but you have the WE as a collective WE. Actually, since we all not all joined at the hip, each of us is the master of our own reality, and our own reference to human time. And while there is no cosmic time, since we as humans are discussing all this, it must be in human terms. Thus we each have our own unique reality, and our unique concept of time is part of that. While discussions and opinions are fine, force feeding our own or anyone else's reality on anyone else is a disservice. Offer your opinions but present them as your opinion, which this time you have, and let each of us draw his or her conclusion.

John

John, I don't get the point of your post. What are you saying?

kris0503 said:

John, I don't get the point of your post. What are you saying?

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Sorry Kris, you are far from the first person who has had trouble figuring me out. Time is probably a scientific concept, so I doubt if my ideas will make much sense to anyone other than me. I have one of the least scientific minds around.

I personally don't think the nature time is that impotent in an overview of history, or to this type of discussion. Time, or at least our individual use of our 24 hours a day, is based, just as our reality, on what we perceive it to be, individually.

Quoting you again: We respond interactively irrespective of how we perceive time.

I couldn't disagree more. For example, I'm sitting at my keyboard, trying to write this so it makes sense no only to me, but also to you and anyone else who reads it. However long it takes, my mind is relaxed, but working. It takes me much longer to write this than is does to read most any message I encounter on the forum.

In the courtyard below my apartment, between the two buildings, are two young boys playing in a splash pool, trying to stay cool. Not only are they much louder than I am, they're much more energetic. Among other things they're doing in that courtyard is racing each other around one of the building, joking, dunking each other, and on and on.

Let's say this takes me 45 minutes to compose, read over, amend, read again, and spell check. My time spent is well spent, in my opinion, and has unfolded at a steady pace. The two boys on the other hand, have crammed a lot more activity, and a lot more experience, into that 45 minutes. Since we're not discussing spiritual matters, the time used by me and the boys is the same, reality wise. But experience wise, my reality and their shared and singular realities, have been much different.

So, bottom line:

Reality is whatever you perceive it to be.

and

Time is whatever you perceive it to be.

are, as far as I can see, one in the same. This all makes sense and works for me. I'll enjoy reading why it doesn’t make as much sense to you, and probably, a lot of other people. As I said, I'm not knowledgeable about science, and so I'm always willing to listen to other ideas. With luck I might even understand some of what I read.

John

Thanks for taking the trouble and time to respond, John. I see us responding interactively to discuss the nature of time. Don't you?

I love this thread - thought new members might like it too!

tiltjlp said:
In the courtyard below my apartment, between the two buildings, are two young boys playing in a splash pool, trying to stay cool. Not only are they much louder than I am, they're much more energetic. Among other things they're doing in that courtyard is racing each other around one of the building, joking, dunking each other, and on and on.


Let's say this takes me 45 minutes to compose, read over, amend, read again, and spell check. My time spent is well spent, in my opinion, and has unfolded at a steady pace. The two boys on the other hand, have crammed a lot more activity, and a lot more experience, into that 45 minutes. Since we're not discussing spiritual matters, the time used by me and the boys is the same, reality wise. But experience wise, my reality and their shared and singular realities, have been much different.

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Just loved this tiltjlp!

Deborah said:
Kris,


Quote:


To give that as a reason is to adopt an attitude and posture of religions.


The reason I find it intriguing - is that I have experienced it. It has nothing to do with religions.

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Yes - I feel the same way. It's a strange and wonderful experience - the kind that takes my breath away..

Reincarnation into the Past?


Strangely, I was thinking about a lot of this before I began reading this series of posts. I was going to start a new thread with the question, "Can we reincarnate into the past?"


I am inclined to think that the answer is in the affirmative.


I think a related question might be....Would we be reincarnating into another version of our past? How would we know? Perhaps it has already happened!


How do you all feel about this?


Richard


ps. Hi Deborah!

The concept of simultaneous time is a difficult one to embrace. In an older thread we talk about it in depth and give examples of experiences perceived as simultaneous. Pros and cons.


Hi Richard. You can start a new thread if you would like. New discussions open new opportunities of discover and POV.

Life and soul means always changing with different experiences needed for development .. Going back would be a drag...

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I just reflected on this


The perception of 'development' as something linear, a constant going forward towards a more advanced and sophisticated stage, is rooted deeply in the evolutionary ideas of the 19th century.


I know this is a completely different field, but I think it's interesting how, in archaeology, we're desperately trying to move away from this idea of development towards complexity.


Because more and more often we proof that this is in fact not the case.


Human history, is - in general terms - not a linear development towards sophistication and complexity. Not that it is stagnant, but the dominant view is that development should be viewed more as a spiral, sophistication and complexity goes up and down, we do not learn from history and make the same mistakes again, at times science and progress is blooming, at other times it's stagnant or even regresses. Civilizations comes and goes, rises and falls.


If this is true for the development of human culture, then why not also the human soul?

Great post! Thank you.


I believe there have been many advanced civilizations in the past. We understand SO LITTLE of history. In the Hindu Vedas, there are stories of aircraft, even atomic weapons! And many people died with the symptoms of radiation sickness!


There was a really neat show, on the Discovery channel, I think.


It told what would happen if mankind were gone. Even after several years there would be great differences. After several thousand years, there would be NO TRACE that humans ever existed!


Peace,


Richard G

Sunniva said:

Human history, is - in general terms - not a linear development towards sophistication and complexity. Not that it is stagnant, but the dominant view is that development should be viewed more as a spiral, sophistication and complexity goes up and down, we do not learn from history and make the same mistakes again, at times science and progress is blooming, at other times it's stagnant or even regresses. Civilizations comes and goes, rises and falls.


If this is true for the development of human culture, then why not also the human soul?

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I love this quote. As I read it, it triggered a memory (from this life) of a novel by Reinaldo Arenas (the exiled Cuban writer). The novel is The Color of Summer. In the novel, the novelist himself appears divided into three characters all gravitating to a carnival. The novel is told in non-linear time. In the Forward to the novel (which incidentially begins on page 252) Arenas writes the novel is a: "grotesque and satirical (and therefore realistic) portrait" of Cuban reality and “is not a linear work, but circular, and therefore cyclonic, with a vortex or eye – the Carnival- towards which all vectors whirl."


Arenas (who BTW writes nothing about reincarnation) has always been one of my favorite writers for many reasons, but one of those reasons is that he could conceive and tell a story that does not follow linear time conventions.

Alexnovo,


I agree with you on what Sunniva wrote. Those words are quite meaningful to me.

thephilosopher said:

After several thousand years, there would be NO TRACE that humans ever existed!
Peace,


Richard G

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Richard,


I am always surprised at how deeply the past is buried. I don't think that we can disregard ancient texts just because we think that what they contain is too fantastic to be believed. I wonder what the truth of the planet's ancient history really is.

An older thread with some interesting reflections. Do any new members have thoughts to share?