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Can You Time Travel With Astral Projection?

TheCuriousOne

TheCuriousOne

Always Searching...
Not in a past life seeking sense, but in a Back To The Future sense: plain, normal time travel. I'd like to hear your experiences, if this is possible.
 
I don't think so. I'm still working in my own Time Theory, but I think it's not possible because the astral and the physical plane are different dimensions, and each has its own time. If you want to go to a future time in this dimension, you just can't, as your physical body is trapped in the present time, even when you, in your astral body, are in the astral and from there you can get glimpses of both past and future. But my hypothesis is you do this through a mental process, not physically.


Many astral travellers sometimes state they have "travelled" in time. I think this is just an illusion as in the astral everything is "very real" and it looks like you're really there. For example, I think this is what happens with past life dreams. But it's not you were "physically" there, it's you were there as if you were inside a movie. This is the reason I also think you just can't change the past if you time travel there from the astral. Things already happened and can't be altered, even when you may think you could interfere.
 
TheCuriousOne said:
Not in a past life seeking sense, but in a Back To The Future sense: plain, normal time travel. I'd like to hear your experiences, if this is possible.
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I've told the story elsewhere on the board - but I will re-tell it again since it pertains to your question.


In 1981, I called a group of friends and invited them over to tell them about an experience I had during the night that I felt was more real than real. We sat around in a circle "That 70's Show" style. I told them, "Two spirits woke me up in the middle of the night and dragged me out of my body. They told me to hurry up because I was needed in the future. I asked who needed me in the future and they said - you do." I needed myself in the future - so off we went on an adventure to find myself in the future somewhere. We came across an older man sitting with his back to me - and he was playing poker with a teenaged Russian immigrant. (1981 was during the cold war - so - this idea seemed far fetched at the time. I said, "The Russian is cheating and when I catch him at it in the future - I was instructed to tap myself on the shoulder. That is when the fun starts."


When my 'future self' turns around and looks into the face of my 'ghost from the past' - a mind merge takes place. The past and the future became one - and many missing pieces started falling into place in my future mind. My future self wasn't expecting that sort of thing. It had been many years since anything as dramatic in a metaphysical sense happened to me. It scares the 'crap' out of me in the future. My future self jumps up and turns white as a sheet and everyone starts asking me what was wrong with me - and saying I looked like I had seen a ghost. How do you tell people you just looked into the face of your own ghost?


Of course, my friends where laughing their tails off as I re-told the story of what I knew had happened to me in the night. It was a hard stretch for them to believe it was real and true and was set to happen in the future exactly as I described. They were trying to tell me there were a 'trillion-trillion' different possibilities to the future and it was unlikely that every single soul and person in the world would be make all the decisions necessary to help me navigate to that personal situation in the future. I told them that when I do find my way to that situation and it comes to pass exactly as I described - I would be wanted to find that wormhole and crawl back in time to 'kick their behinds' for laughing at me so hard in the past - because - it wasn't funny to my future mind.


In 2003, I was sitting with a Russian immigrant teenager playing poker when I caught him cheating. I felt a tap on my shoulder and turned around to find myself looking into the face of my own 'ghost' starring back at me. It whispered, "Worry not about what others' think of you. Concern yourself with what the Father knows of you."


I had been told in 1981 that I would be praying to God for an answer to a personal situation I was facing in the future and that God felt the best way to answer that prayer and deliver the message my mind needed to hear in the future - was my own personal spirit.


The saying goes, with God - all things are possible. I personally don't believe 'time travel' is something you can do of your own will. I think that door is locked and the only one that has the key to it is God.


Sincerely,


DKing
 
Eowyn said:
This is the reason I also think you just can't change the past if you time travel there from the astral. Things already happened and can't be altered, even when you may think you could interfere.
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After my experience in 2003 and several other similar experiences leading up to 2006 - I came to believe the same thing about the future. I had a long discussion with my friends in 1981 and explained what I could to them - about what I had sight of from those 'out of body journeys' - and I told them the same thing about the future. It has already happened on a level beyond our mental minds understanding. I told them, "You have as much chance traveling back in time and changing the past - as you do traveling forward in time and changing the future." What is meant to be - will be.


Sincerely,


DKing
 
I thought so at first, but then I began to believe that we cannot change the future, just observe it.


However, now I'm leaning towards thinking that between incarnations, I and my "Spirit Guides" plan out my next lifetime and THAT'S what is flexible. :)
 
In case you think I mean the physical body, I don't. I mean, can you, in your astral body, travel in time.
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That's what I was trying to explain in my post. I don't think you can do it "physically" while in the astral, as when you are in the astral you either move in your astral body, and I should say "apparently", as there are people who doubt its very existence, or you do it "mentally". You can glimpse the past and the future, and if DKing's experiences are true (which I don't doubt), then perhaps you could influence someone's mind from the astral, or appear as a ghost. In this case someone in the physical world would momentarily perceive you (or not). You would be in your own astral dimension, and that means you could be aware of the physical world... or not.


Now, could you, while in the astral, think: "I want to go back to my past life in XV century" and travel back in time? Well, you might have the illusion the environment changes to fit a scene from that past life, where you will feel and see yourself as that person you were. Does this mean you were indeed in the past, in the physical world? No, it's only something you created with your mind, probably using your own past life memories stored in your subconscious/soul/whatever. I think this is the phenomenon behind past life dreams, and the reason they feel so vivid. If it's a lucid dream, you could even think you can change what's happening, but this is isn't true, as the only thing you're changing is your own illusion. Possibly many astral travellers have had similar experiences and they interpret it as a real time travel.


Once again, it's hard to understand when you haven't been in the astral and can't imagine how "variable" and intangible the astral world is. You just can't compare it with something "physical" as we know it here. The other problem is that the world "travel" is a bit confusing, me thinks. As I've mentioned in other threads, I think it's not that time is an illusion, space is the illusion. Travelling makes you think of a long, long way to go, a distance we have to "walk" from point A to point B. I don't think it works that way. You just think "where" you want to go and you are instantly there (if you have enough control, probably our spirits do it when we're unconscious). You will appear in a different dimension where time goes its own way. We only call it "past" or "future" in reference to our own time, which is always subjective.


That's the best my brain can do anyway... Of course I may be wrong.
 
If you want to go to a future time in this dimension, you just can't, as your physical body is trapped in the present time, even when you, in your astral body, are in the astral and from there you can get glimpses of both past and future.
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To clarify this: when I say astral traveller, I'm referring to alive people who are linked to a physical body. If you can astrally travel to the future, you just can't live in the future as you are currently living in this world, as your physical body is living in its own time (and believe me, without astral body it won't wake up). I don't know what happens with spirits or souls of dead people. As far as I know we don't have a lot of accounts, but my hypothesis is that if you are dead and you want to live (in a physical body) in the physical world, whatever the time, you only have a way to do it: reincarnating.


Another thing could be if we start to accept that the physical world and the spiritual world are not really that separated. I think we don't understand yet how our consciousness works, and possibly, when we are finally freed of our physical body, we can "travel" wherever we go. In fact, I think we do it constantly even when we're alive, only most of us are not aware of this, and then we look for hundreds of bizarre explanations when the only answer is in our consciousness.
 
TheCuriousOne


The answer to your question is easy and straight forward


Going back or forward in time has no relevance in the Astral Wondering and being curious about time travel is a physical thing.


Time travel is another example of projecting physical desires and imagination into a dimension that is non physical.
 
Yes you can.
First, what is reality? reality is the construction of the world according to one's senses/thoughts, that could be influenced or not by what others say.
Second, what is time? Time is movement. If you reverse movement and delete the consequences of previous movement you are going back in time. In the common accepted reality (aka ' the physical world') we haven't found a way to do that yet, but in the astral it might be possible. Why? because if the astral is not another dimension then is another plane of this dimension. If I astral travel somewhere, is there a future to that place I travelled? Are we creating and destroying pocket universes when we astral travel?

There's really no illusions in reincarnation. As Dumbledore says "Of course it's in your head, that doesn't mean it's not real". A shared illusion doesn't make it more real either.
 
This is probably as far off track from the question that one could get, but who knows how many possibilities there are to time travel.

I've often wondered if we can time travel by mind. Is it possible for us to go back in our mind to warn ourselves of impending situations or to possibly save ourselves from harm, or to in some way help us get out of a bad position?

Several things I've experienced over the years are unexplainable in any other way. At the age of fifteen, a stranger had come to our home with another guy we knew, who'd known him and was giving him a ride to town. As the stranger talked to us, about fifteen minutes after arriving, a voice clearly spoke to me, saying "This man will be your husband." And just eleven months later, we were married, although I'd never had anything to do with him, and had no feelings about him.

Another time, with surgery scheduled just days away, I awakened with the thought that I might not survive the surgery. I cancelled it, and five months later was diagnosed with a lung condition that makes going under anesthesia risky.

There have been several other instances of the same type. I've spent years pondering where these messages come from. Most are a voice, spoken near my ear, like a ghost standing there.
 
Hi Gypsy,

These intuitions and locutions could be the product of your own abilities, but sound to me like they may also include things shared with you by guides/angels. Just a guess. The whole topic of time travel is interesting. I'm not convinced that anything physical can travel in time, though I do not discount the possibility of accessing past events via a virtual reality type accessing of the record of such events, wherever this is stored, in the body or out of it. Also, there may be a way for our future self to psychically contact our past self. Tanguerra reports some communications between herself and a PL self in some threads. I'll leave it to her to give you the details.

Cordially,
S&S
 
Hi S&S,

I'm a big Si Fi fan, so time travel has always been an interest to me.

I've heard people talk about their guides and angels, and have wondered how they connect to these being that tell them all this stuff. Is it just something that comes to their mind and they don't think they have what it takes to think of such things, so give credit to a guide or angel?

I've credited my last past life with some things, such as having gotten so many story ideas from my dreams, and he'd wrote most of his stories based on dreams, and why I knew I wanted to be a writer before I could even write. His life was cut short in the middle of a book he'd believed was his best so far. That in itself would be a very strong incentive for a soul to reach out to the next life he'd be in, I think.

I've also depended on my own abilities and beliefs for a very long time because life situations put me in that position. and I believe very strongly in the power of my mind. I came up with the time travel by mind mostly because of that first voice telling me the stranger would be my husband, because my life had been going innocently along, and the idea was unthinkable to me. Then my path took a very sudden turn and what it became made it almost vital to try to warn a younger me of the dangers ahead.

Thank you for your input.
 
Hi Gypsy:

I have only had one voice speak in my mind--it happened during a meditation session, was completely unexpected, and brought me out of meditation very abruptly. I was very startled to say the least. I took it to be the kind of voice, message you are referring to, but it is not the kind of thing that usually happens to me, nor do I know how to seek it, though I have read of many similar experiences by others.

You may be interested in the last few posts on the "Smoking Behind the Gym" thread, which have to do with the . . . plasticity? . . . of time and its relationship to who we actually are beyond the transient selves we take on in each incarnation. In terms of speaking to yourself at an earlier age, I seem to recall something of that type from DKing, but I'm not sure. I know that Tanguerra has reported some communications with a PL self, which may be of interest. So, you may want to review her threads or PM her for more info.

Cordially,
S&S
 
I have had quite a few forward flashes. Is that that what you mean Gypsy? They are less common than past flashes. but certainly happen. It goes against how we mostly experience time - as though it was a fast flowing river that only goes in one direction - always 'forwards' never 'backwards'. But time (like a lot of thing in life) is 'an illusion'. Like the illusion that the sun is moving around the Earth, when in fact the opposite is true. Or when you are in a stationary train and you see another train take off from the station, next to you and it makes you feel for a moment that you are moving. It is a powerful illusion, but it's an illusion all the same.

Time is not how we often perceive it to be. It's not a long skinny road that we walk down. It's more like an ocean that we swim in. It is always there. It is we who are moving, but that gives the illusion that time is moving while we stand still. It's a bit more complicated than most people think. If you can have future glimpses when 'half asleep' or in meditation or flashbacks, why not in astral travel? It's all more or less the same thing in my view.

The future
 
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Gypsy8 said:
Several things I've experienced over the years are unexplainable in any other way. At the age of fifteen, a stranger had come to our home with another guy we knew, who'd known him and was giving him a ride to town. As the stranger talked to us, about fifteen minutes after arriving, a voice clearly spoke to me, saying "This man will be your husband." And just eleven months later, we were married, although I'd never had anything to do with him, and had no feelings about him.

Another time, with surgery scheduled just days away, I awakened with the thought that I might not survive the surgery. I cancelled it, and five months later was diagnosed with a lung condition that makes going under anesthesia risky.

There have been several other instances of the same type. I've spent years pondering where these messages come from. Most are a voice, spoken near my ear, like a ghost standing there.
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Many people have premonitions. I certainly do. One explanation could certainly be that time is not what we think it is. That 'warning voice' is something that a lot of people have experienced, including me.
 
tanguerra, I'm not sure what you mean about forward flashes. I've had many flashes of things like what is going to happen at a certain event I'm on my way to attending; warnings of what vehicles on the road with me are going to do without any kind of warning that puts
tanguerra said:
Many people have premonitions. I certainly do. One explanation could certainly be that time is not what we think it is. That 'warning voice' is something that a lot of people have experienced, including me.
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me in danger, so I can move out of their way, and a lot of other such things.

The voice is like someone speaking next to me. It isn't always warnings. Once, on my way to my bank to apply for a loan for the fourth time, at a much lower rate, the voice told me to "take the bus to Reno on Monday." I did, and once there, it told me to find a quarter machine. ha ha! I started looking, but every time I stopped at a quarter machine, I'd get a very negative feeling, so I moved on, and finally came to one where I didn't get any feeling or voice. I put my quarters in, pulled the handle, and won the amount the bank had again turned me down for.

I've never been around trains, but I've been fascinated to see cars and bicycles moving forward while the tires seem to be going backwards.
 
Yes, those could be called 'forward flashes' too. Or 'premonitions'. But what I am talking about is future life flashes, like past life flashes, but in a future life.
 
Everything has already happened, just to us in time we can't see it from our point of view. I have achieved going backwards in time via OOB experiece but was unable to affect anything. Maybe I would have to appear to someone with astral vision to be able to influence them but if I did I wouldn't be changing the past because in the past I appeared.
As for the future, not tried it but I have heard from magicians that it is incredibly difficult. Only the really top draw spiritual Masters can do it and have the wisdom not to do it,
 
Norton said:
Everything has already happened, just to us in time we can't see it from our point of view. I have achieved going backwards in time via OOB experiece but was unable to affect anything. Maybe I would have to appear to someone with astral vision to be able to influence them but if I did I wouldn't be changing the past because in the past I appeared.
As for the future, not tried it but I have heard from magicians that it is incredibly difficult. Only the really top draw spiritual Masters can do it and have the wisdom not to do it,
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I can only give you my opinion here, as I don't have direct experience, but I think you can't affect anything in the past because astral projecting you can't really travel to the past, though I know of an instance where there was a certain lack of synchronization between events happening in the astral and in the physical world, observed by the experiencer. But I think we have to be careful with the words we choose to define this kind of phenomena. I think this is a great subject to speculate with, make films or write science-fiction, but I suspect that many astral travelers claim they traveled to the past only because they thought they had, as in that state we can recreate anything we want, including the past (and only if you have enough control, which is virtually impossible unless you have trained for years), and feels incredibly real. But this doesn't mean you can actually travel to the past, least of all change it or do something that could alter the future. Among other things, you hardly can alter the present, physical world from the astral, so how could you do it with the past? I think if that were possible, we would have already seen some of the effects. If something is needed among astral travelers and other "esoteric"/magical or whatever word you choose to name this kind of phenomena, is more common sense, and less heeding these so-called "masters".

And of course, I completely disagree with the sentence "Everything has already happened". There is no proof this is true, and probably there will never be. Not even quantum physics point to this possibility, so far. That time is perceived differently in other dimensions, doesn't mean that time doesn't exist or that the future is past. Though, yes, it's also wonderful to write science-fiction.
 
Eowyn said:
I can only give you my opinion here, as I don't have direct experience, but I think you can't affect anything in the past because astral projecting you can't really travel to the past, though I know of an instance where there was a certain lack of synchronization between events happening in the astral and in the physical world, observed by the experiencer. But I think we have to be careful with the words we choose to define this kind of phenomena. I think this is a great subject to speculate with, make films or write science-fiction, but I suspect that many astral travelers claim they traveled to the past only because they thought they had, as in that state we can recreate anything we want, including the past (and only if you have enough control, which is virtually impossible unless you have trained for years), and feels incredibly real. But this doesn't mean you can actually travel to the past, least of all change it or do something that could alter the future.
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I defintely agree with certain ideas here and I definitely fired off a few ideas without bothering to explain them - or even justify them - sorry for that.
As far as the Akashic records go I've only been there once . It is very possible that they are simply that, astral records. However the feeling is definitely that of being present in 3d reality just as you or I would be reading these sentences the same way now as if you were in the records. The astral is different, more fluid.
But of course yes. To draw any conclusion from phenomena after one experiment is highly unscientific . And Magick is science after all.
Among other things, you hardly can alter the present, physical world from the astral, so how could you do it with the past? I think if that were possible, we would have already seen some of the effects. If something is needed among astral travelers and other "esoteric"/magical or whatever word you choose to name this kind of phenomena, is more common sense, and less heeding these so-called "masters".
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But it can be altered . Some people have the astral as a 'fantasy world' . (In fact this world here is a deeper fantasy from the point of view of divinity in many religions) I don't think so, it's closer to the outskirts of Jungs collective unconscious , that later produces the world. I don't think the records are in what we commonly see as the astral. It certainly was a different experience.

No I tend to follow the idea that we wouldn't have seen the effects because it would have always happened paradox. But that's in general time travel, not necessarily in the AR because , of course I don't know how they function fully yet .

Oh I dunno about masters, some of 'em have the right idea -

'In this book it is spoken of the Sephiroth and the Paths; of Spirits and Conjurations; of Gods, Spheres, Planes, and many other things which may or may not exist.

It is immaterial whether these exist or not. By doing certain things certain results will follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them.'
;)


And of course, I completely disagree with the sentence "Everything has already happened". There is no proof this is true, and probably there will never be. Not even quantum physics point to this possibility, so far. That time is perceived differently in other dimensions, doesn't mean that time doesn't exist or that the future is past. Though, yes, it's also wonderful to write science-fiction.
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On the other hand I have to agree with the sentence 'everything has already happened' . It's not quanta. It's simply dimensions of time and space being transcended , which is highly possible. Y'know, 2 dimensional flatland, 3 dimensional us, 4th dimensional time/space trancension and all the way up to a postulated 10 dimensions which is somehow related to the 10 aspects of thought and the worlds of the Sephira. Even in the fifth dimension everything has already happened. Pretty standard theory and very standard mystical experience.

As for the future. Well many people have glimpses of personal future, avoding a plane when it's fated to crash, I used to see glimpses of the next day in school in detail when I was a child. There's of course a wealth of information on this phenomena - far more than on past lives.
And if a simple child can do this, how much more Buddha?
 
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There has been an event that happened to me back in 1995 that has stayed with me and haunted me for the past 23 years. For the longest time I thought it was a dream, but as I got older I heard more about astral projection and thought maybe it could have been that... I would REALLY appreciate any insight you guys may have... Here is what happened.

Keep in mind in 1995 I was 24 years old... but one day I went to sleep... and what appeared to be a dream I think could have been astral projection. But I was older and not sure of my age. Probably mid to late 40's... with kids, and job, wife... But in that "time" I felt like I was there... all my life memories, everything. It felt like I had just lived my life. But in that "life" I remember saying goodnight to my wife, and going to sleep next to her. I closed my eyes, then opened them. I reached over to see if she was still there and I realized it was 1995. I immediately felt sad like I had lost my life... and I literally felt the memories of the past 20+ years slip away from my mind. I was wide awake then and trying to make sense of things. I told myself that it must have just been a VERY VIVID dream. But as I said... it haunts me a little. I am now 47, married with kids... But it doesn't feel like the "dream"... Then I hear about astral projection...

I wonder... did I astral project forward from 1995 to this era? or was I from this era and astral project BACK to 1995? Could I have gone back and changed my life to what it is now? Could it happen again and I lose what life I have now? I start thinking about alternate realities and alternate universes... could I have traveled to an alternate one? Switch between my own selves in different universes? It freaks me out to think about all of this... or was it just a stupid dream.

I should say too that I am a Christian, so trying to understand all of this through that filter. But I have had psychic visions before and they've been real. There is a family connection, where my mom and grandmother have had visions as well. So whatever it is, I think there is some kind of generational "gift". Anyways, crazy right?

Thoughts? Advice?
 
Not at all crazy Eliott, although it sounds as though it could have been a memory of a prior lifetime with equal likelihood, although that would probably be less acceptable when viewed through your 'filter'.

Welcome to the forum by the way!

I imagine that Sea & Sky will pop in to comment on your experience.
 
KenJ said:
Not at all crazy Eliott, although it sounds as though it could have been a memory of a prior lifetime with equal likelihood, although that would probably be less acceptable when viewed through your 'filter'.

Welcome to the forum by the way!

I imagine that Sea & Sky will pop in to comment on your experience.
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I am open minded here. :) So any interpretations are welcomed.
 
Welcome to the forum, Elliott,

You don't sound crazy to me. These things happen sometimes, no matter what kind of religious background you are from.

I also would rather opt for a past life memory. In the astral, you can see and meet whatever you want, but your experience sounds like a spontaneous emotional memory.
 
Elliott BRown said:
There has been an event that happened to me back in 1995 that has stayed with me and haunted me for the past 23 years. For the longest time I thought it was a dream, but as I got older I heard more about astral projection and thought maybe it could have been that... I would REALLY appreciate any insight you guys may have... Here is what happened.

Keep in mind in 1995 I was 24 years old... but one day I went to sleep... and what appeared to be a dream I think could have been astral projection. But I was older and not sure of my age. Probably mid to late 40's... with kids, and job, wife... But in that "time" I felt like I was there... all my life memories, everything. It felt like I had just lived my life. But in that "life" I remember saying goodnight to my wife, and going to sleep next to her. I closed my eyes, then opened them. I reached over to see if she was still there and I realized it was 1995. I immediately felt sad like I had lost my life... and I literally felt the memories of the past 20+ years slip away from my mind. I was wide awake then and trying to make sense of things. I told myself that it must have just been a VERY VIVID dream. But as I said... it haunts me a little. I am now 47, married with kids... But it doesn't feel like the "dream"... Then I hear about astral projection...

I wonder... did I astral project forward from 1995 to this era? or was I from this era and astral project BACK to 1995? Could I have gone back and changed my life to what it is now? Could it happen again and I lose what life I have now? I start thinking about alternate realities and alternate universes... could I have traveled to an alternate one? Switch between my own selves in different universes? It freaks me out to think about all of this... or was it just a stupid dream.

I should say too that I am a Christian, so trying to understand all of this through that filter. But I have had psychic visions before and they've been real. There is a family connection, where my mom and grandmother have had visions as well. So whatever it is, I think there is some kind of generational "gift". Anyways, crazy right?

Thoughts? Advice?
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@Elliott BRown - I would like you to look up Einstein's theory of Quantum Entanglement. You might find a lot of answers to your question.

Being Christian shouldn't preclude you from understanding what you experienced. I am not Christian, but Judaism provides a plethora of what most non-Gd fearing people call "hokey." Christianity is based in Judaism and although I don't believe in Jesus as my Saviour, I believe if he existed he was a Kabbalist. He was trying to use parables to explain it simply because if Kabbalah is anything, it's NOT simple. It's a fact that science is proving the Bible and Kabbalistic "psychic nonsense" not disproving it. Quantum physics is just starting to tap what men who lived and died 2,000 years ago were writing about before microscopes and Richard Dawkins - LOL!

The prophets used astral projection frequently to access higher realms of existence. Ezekiel had a "merkava" experience. Merkava mystics probably experienced ecstatic visions of the celestial hierarchies and the throne of Gd. In Merkava mystical literature the ascent of the visionary’s soul is described as a perilous journey through seven spheres, or “heavenly dwellings,” manned by hostile angels. The visionary’s goal was to behold the divine throne situated on its chariot. Merkava mysticism was strongly influenced by Gnostic beliefs.

Merkava initiates (tzenuʿim), limited to a select few with specific moral qualities, were required to prepare themselves by fasting. A successful visionary journey depended, in part, on the use of certain magical formulas (called seals) that were used to placate the angelic gatekeeper of each heavenly dwelling. The use of an incorrect seal could result in severe injury or a fiery death. The Talmud warns that among four men who engaged in Merkava, one died, one went mad, one apostatized, and only Rabbi Akiba ben Joseph had a true visionary experience. Those who practiced Merkava were sometimes called Explorers of the Supernatural World (Yorde Merkava); Gershom Gerhard Scholem, a modern Jewish scholar of mysticism, suggests that the words may have implied a descent into the depths of self.
 
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