Christianity and Reincarnation

Discussion in 'Reincarnation, Religion and Spirituality' started by Nightrain, Jun 29, 2010.

  1. The last age.

    The last age. Active Member

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    There was a reason for 'rejecting' reincarnation at this time, a necessary one. We would not be sitting here communicating across the air if it had continued as a common belief.
     
  2. The last age.

    The last age. Active Member

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    Hello Rama Raksha, may I say that I think you have been looking only at evangelical protestant Christianity as I never grew up with this idea of God as a magician, and all I had to do was believe, and all would be well. It was hard and involved following the ten commandments which can be followed by all people who like order and care about their fellow human beings, recognizing at the same time that we are beholden to a power above; each religion is giving or understanding 'God' according to their level of spiritual growth.

    When I was in my last life in Ireland, I was disturbed (my family have been registered Christian for over a thousand years, our name is after a Celtic monk ) because I did not truly understand what meaning the rituals of the RCC who came to dominate the Irish church, and have destroyed it, finally meant .

    I knew from a young age inside myself I would suffer to know the truth, and I have and now after years and study of the stars using the Sidereal method of the ancient Indian Vedic astrologers, and editing it is quite clear who is behind creation and answers so many questions.

    I have great respect for ancient India, in my opinion, the most advanced culture till now, and in many ways I am very sad to see much of the best being rejected and pushed aside for modernist Western (anglo) culture, which is materialist, shallow, and in the long term, when used by shallow souls ,will destroy us. However as well as in the bible (most of which I have only read recently ), there are clear signs of endings, and when you 'see' the bigger picture, God is in charge as we suffer towards the End.

    Those who wish a simple, neat formula to be 'saved ' as they say, will be sadly disappointed, as it is hard, if rewarding work, to enter the 'paradise,' or 'heaven ' we have been promised.
     
  3. Polaris8

    Polaris8 Senior Member

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    This message is for Rama Raksha,

    Reincarnation is the evolution of consciousness itself.

    It takes soul or consciousness millions,upon,millions of years just to reach the human level or stage of being where the soul has an individualized ego that is now self aware. To go backwards serves no purpose.

    The whole process of reincarnation and karma is basically the evolution of the soul’s consciousness and expansion in spiritual awareness. The laws of Karma are simply the laws of physics in motion. For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction. This law applies to all life within the lower worlds of duality below the casual/soul plane.

    However karma is not a system of punishment or reward as many in the west or some in the east like to think but a learning tool for the soul to know the self and master and handle its own density through spiritual growth and maturity by lessons and trials which the higher consciousness sets up for the self. In between lifetimes soul will reside on one of higher dimensions either the astral or mental planes before manifesting back into physical for more experience. And on that side of the veil life is anything but boring! In fact life on the higher dimensions is full of activity and higher learning far more than the physical world could ever be simply because the soul is now free from the contrasts of the laws of the physical plane. Having to eat, sleep, make money and protect the body from the physical elements are now gone. The soul is now free and has a chances to engage in the higher aspects of the inner self. Life on the middle astral is very much like life here accept one has no need for money or a car for travel as thought and feeling are now the mode of creating reality there. Which is why form and reality there can change so quickly.

    However our past life memories both on the physical, astral and mental planes are stored in the permanent atom of the soul body or what some may term the causal body. The Causal/Soul Body is named "Causal" because it is the originating source of each new personality that reincarnates in each lifetime. It is the source of your manifested present personality, causing it to be and exist.

    When your present personality ends, the eternal essence of you is absorbed and goes inward into the next inner body which is the astral. The physical is now droppedSoul will spend time on various levels of this dimension of reality until the same process occurs once again and soul drops the astral body and go further inward into the mental body. Then after some time has been spent on the mental dimension soul will drop the mental body as well and finally return to full consciousness within the Soul/Casual Body which is the eternal part of you. The Soul Body is immortal as it exists beyond time space and matter during your soul journey through the many incarnations or lifetimes within the lower worlds of the physical, astral and mental dimensions.

    So each time we reincarnate we receive a new mental, astral and physical body which have no memory of these prior lifetimes. However the karmic actions from the past are carried over to later be expressed in the new lifetime. This is because the permanent memories and karmic actions of these other lifetimes are store within the soul body itself. But since the new incarnated ego has no memory of this it will in essences get a clean slate each time.

    This is one of the reason why children have an easier time remembering their past lives is because their inner bodies are still developing along with their physical one. Having not yet lived in this world all that long yet allows them easier access to the connections within the soul body’s permanent atom and its memories of other lifetimes lived.

    As the child grows older this become less and less possible as the present personality is now taking hold and is more grounded into the physical world. In time these memories fade all together. In a way this is as it should.

    As nature is kind by not allowing us to normally have memories of these other lifetimes so as to prevent any harm it may cause both mentality and emotionally to the present personality now being lived.

    Peace and love always.


    P.
     
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  4. Saintkelo

    Saintkelo New Member

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    The Christian church is in my opinion only slightly less dogmatic than the Catholic church, and it is my strong belief that both are on very thin ice concerning any kind of openness to any and all "new age beliefs".
    If you study the prevalent tendency among younger people today, you will find that many believe in "something bigger than us", but are unable to accept most religions due to the closedness and dogmatism of these religions, and their resentment to accept the tendencies in most modern societies.

    Personally, I have always believed that all religions contain some truths, but no religion contain only truths. The only "exceptions" might be hinduism and buddhism, both of which I consider to be life philosophies more than religions. That being said, I also find many things in theosophy that speaks to me.

    But religion has nothing to do with reincarnation, other than the fact that most religions have actually accepted it in earlier times. Why they no longer do so, is of no interest to me. Reincarnation is a part of how nature works, both for animals and humans, just like the law of karma exists and works for all beings, even to this day.

    Everything in the universe is connected to other things, "dead" as well as living things, and there is a constant exchange of energy going on between all of them. The universe functions as a whole; a vast network, an organism, just like the body of you or me, with energy constantly moving around from cell to cell, from nerve to nerve, and so on. "As above, so below". Look at the tiniest objects, and you will find them repeated in the big picture, and vice versa.

    Another thing: How could living beings be able to evolve spiritually, if there was no reincarnation?

    I have read Carlos Castanedas books countless times, tried to understand Einsteins relativity, read countless books on buddhism and theosophy, and I still find it amazing how many small hints makes me realize, that there are a number of common denominators "binding" them together. This has lead me to believe the way I do, that a new kind of complete openness is necessary to accomplish an understanding of the truths in science, religion, sorcery etc.
    Put together, they will reveal many exciting things, taken one by one, they will reveal no new findings.
     
  5. Speedwell

    Speedwell Senior Registered

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    Er ... I think you'll find that the Catholic Church IS a Christian church.

    I suspect you had in mind some other faction or sect, but without any specifics it doesn't convey any meaning.
     
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  6. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi Saintkelo,

    Welcome to the board. Actually, there probably is room for a large reincarnationist Christian denomination. There are some articles out there where polling shows around 25% of Christians in the U.S. and UK (RC and Protestant) believe in reincarnation (despite denominational positions). (I don't know of anything specifically polling Orthodox denominations--so I won't comment there, though I think it would be similar if not larger). So, a unified reincarnationist denomination would probably be larger than most existing Christian denominations if formed and successful.

    Likewise, though there are a great many beliefs held in common, there is some degree of variation in regard to almost all of the major areas of Christian theology--i.e., Eschatology, Anthropology, Soteriology, Trinitarians vs. Unitarians, etc. However, in terms of Eschatology, there is an almost across-the-board agreement that the term anastasis (resurrection) means the "raising" of a particular personal body in a transfigured/transformed/spiritualized state (though there is a lot of disagreement about what exactly this implies). The concept of a particular embodiment being the ultimate vehicle through which "salvation" is eternally experienced contrasts with the concept of multiple physical embodiments inherent in reincarnation with the physical being ultimately something that will be transcended.

    So, this is probably the primary conceptual sticking point. However, Jewish believers in reincarnation/gilgul (who are generally Kabbalists) conform this to the basic Jewish belief in resurrection by positing that it is the final body worn, the one in which the need to reincarnate is transcended, final salvation occurs, etc. which will be the "resurrection" embodiment which will become the transfigured/transformed/transmuted vehicle of action/experience for those who have reached the end of the process. So, this represents a possible approach to the issue.

    Cordially,
    S&S

    PS--Just as a matter of interest, there are a variety of smaller Christian denominations that do believe in reincarnation. In the U.S. "Unity" is probably the largest of these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unity_Church From what I can tell, it holds a belief similar to that described in the last paragraph.
     
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  7. Saintkelo

    Saintkelo New Member

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    I meant the common Christian church vs the Catholic church. In my mind the latter is different in many ways.
     
  8. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi Saintkelo,

    I understand your position, since it was held historically by Protestants (and is still held by many). Certainly, the Cathars and many others who I admire would have agreed with you completely. The RC, in turn, returned this attitude/approach in kind. However, there is a lot more mutual respect in the current era, though still prominent disagreements.

    From a personal standpoint, I respect the RC in many ways, have relatives/friends who are RC, and definitely consider them to be fellow Christians myself. Plus, niceness rules on the board, and discussion on religious matters generally is supposed to stay pretty close to the subject of reincarnation. So, except to the extent a denominational difference might reflect on approaches to reincarnation, I doubt that it would be acceptable.

    Cordially,
    S&S
     
  9. Saintkelo

    Saintkelo New Member

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    Thanks for clarifying :)
     
  10. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi Saintkelo,

    No problem. ;) BTW--Here is a more up-to-date article covering this issue and a variety of other spiritual beliefs:

    https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-ta...ng-both-religious-and-nonreligious-americans/

    Here is the more recent break-down it gives:

    [​IMG]

    Interestingly, more Catholics than Protestants in the U.S. appear to believe in reincarnation. Hmmm. I think it strange that the first and second categories are labeled "New Age" as these clearly have Biblical support. The first is clearly supported in the cloths that were taken from apostles and used to effect healings. The second is also supported in manifold places in OT and NT, including the "spirit of divination" described in Acts. I'd argue the last two are also supported, but the support there is "thinner" and more subject to argument by those that oppose these concepts.

    Cordially,
    S&S

    PS--The most interesting thing to me is how close the religious and unaffiliated tend to be in many areas. The most radical divergence is with regard to the "atheist" category, which comes out pretty low on everything. No surprise there for me. :cool: But it was also interesting to see that the "Nothing in particular" folks came out very strongly in all categories--showing that they don't believe in "nothing in particular" but actually believe in quite a bit (spiritually speaking). :rolleyes:
     
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  11. KenJ

    KenJ Assistant Archivist and Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Those statistics don't fit my area of the USA, I'm black-listed by my friends for speaking-out about reincarnation and my accurate prediction that I would "die" last month.
     
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  12. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi Ken,

    Well, in terms of reincarnation, that is still a minority position (since 2/3 to 3/4 are not reincarnationists). Plus, as you note, I have no doubt that these percentages vary a great deal by geographical area, denomination, etc. Also, for many like myself, this is a stealth position. To be known publicly means possible church disciplinary action and social ostracism (as you experience). The latter becomes even more problematic considering the family implications for people like myself. It would help if there was a prominent Christian movement in this area, but that is still probably 20-30 years from fruition even if one does get started.

    On the last point, an observation. In the last century or so, every 30 years or so Christianity has tended to break new ground in some area. Go back to the first 30 years of the last century, and you will find such ground being broken vis-a-vis old earth/evolutionary concepts. Though it may be forgotten in some spheres (and may have led to a general loosening of standards in society) birth control only began being approved in Protestant circles beginning around 1928. Then, in the sixties the whole race thing got off the ground (plus feminism). I'm probably just trying to follow my own 30 year pattern, but it seems to me that the whole rainbow gender thing really got rolling in the 90s. So, 2020 or so we should be in line for something new, and it could be that the research of Stevenson and others will begin to come out and have more of an impact.

    However, even if it does, it may take a good long while for it to saturate and be accepted by a sizable component of Christendom. As you may have noticed, none of the foregoing (except fundamental concepts of racial equality) completely took the field in Catholic as well as Protestant circles. Birth control is now ubiquitous in much of Protestantism (but remains under-cover in Catholicism). Feminism has had a huge impact in liberal and a few conservative Protestant denominations. And, Rainbow gender stuff is at present embraced only by the more liberal Protestant denominations (though it seems on course to be ultimately embraced by all of the mainline/oldline Protestant denominations). Time will tell what survives and thrives and what doesn't. Hopefully, there will be room to incorporate more broadly what has been coming out via NDE's and reincarnation research over the next phase.

    Cordially,
    S&S

    PS--I realize that I forgot to mention the old earth evolutionary paradigm in terms of its lasting impact and saturation. Needless to say, the idea of a more ancient universe and gradual appearance of more advanced forms has more-or-less conquered the field in all but the more conservative denominations/believers. However, it is not the atheistic concept of evolution as it includes concepts of divine planning, intervention, supervision, etc.

    PPS--Sorry about the blacklisting. You might be surprised to know that most of these people still like you and respect you. However, they probably don't know what to say to you. Your embrace of a different type of eschatology probably makes most of them confused and uncomfortable, and none of us are at our best in such circumstances. Plus, it makes it difficult to shift over to well-worn platitudes about being with the Lord in heaven or similar stuff. Hmmm. Think of what you would say if someone suddenly announced they were happy to be soon going to Valhalla to drink with the rest of the warriors and dally with the Valkyries while waiting for Ragnarok. You might be able to handle that, but most people would be flabbergasted, struck dumb, and very uncomfortable.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2019
  13. Speedwell

    Speedwell Senior Registered

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    It's funny, here in the UK I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if one of my friends or acquaintances did say something like that. Nowadays I find myself attending funerals more frequently, and only a modest proportion have any sort of religious side to the ceremony. It usually tends to be at the same time both solemn, serious and respectful, as well as joyful and celebratory. We don't seem to go in so much for the religious traditions.

    Actually I'd be surprised if someone had a ceremony embracing a more off-beat religious traditon, but certainly it would not be surprising to hear an allusion in conversation to to such a thing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2019
  14. Jaimie

    Jaimie Senior Member

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    I for one think you are brave to speak openly about this to friends : ) even if some won't accept reincarnation beliefs you could still have waken something up in the back of their minds, even if they won't confess to it openly...
     
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  15. tanker

    tanker Senior Registered

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    I agree ... but if this is their reaction, were they really friends in the first place? Not in my book.
     
  16. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi Speedwell,

    It depends on who the people are you are with. It is difficult to talk to people about their impending death, and even more difficult if they respond in a way that is outside your comfort zone. Being from the South in the midst of the Bible belt, I don't think I would have any problem dealing with a dear old Granny lady talking at length about going home to be with Jeeeesus, etc. However, in our secularized age, there are many that would be very uncomfortable and at a loss for words in that context. It doesn't mean they like or respect that person less. They just don't know the lingo and how to respond in keeping with their own beliefs, plus most people (as noted) just find it uncomfortable to talk to someone about their impending death. So, double or triple whammy. For myself, I would probably have a hard time if the sweet old Granny lady started talking about going home to be with Sweeeeeeet Sataaaaan! :confused: Otherwise I think I could handle most anything. :cool: I think . . . . o_O

    I just wanted to reassure Ken that those people don't like him less, they probably just don't know how to deal with the situation from a whole variety of angles. Folks often find avoidance to be the safest strategy in situations like that . . . unfortunately. :(

    Cordially,
    S&S

    PS--You're right about the NDE/NDA problem. I did an edit to fix it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2019
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  17. KenJ

    KenJ Assistant Archivist and Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Thank you my friend, I understand their reluctance to my simply being a crazy-old-man who says strange things. I'm a bit of an outcast to them, talking about things that are distant from the norm.

    Awakened this morning with a feeling of something being wrong somewhere, I checked around and didn't find anything - now I'm worried.
     
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  18. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi Ken,

    On your first concern, I'd think about writing something down for them. Not a long account, more like The Desiderata. Something summarizing your beliefs about life, etc., and closer to poetry than prose. The last is a bit of a tall order, but I suppose I mean that things that are striking and memorable will be recalled and cherished (as well as remembered) better than the practical and prosaic. Anyhow, I hope to do the same myself some day, a parting summary--hopefully with a moving and uplifting conclusion. Then, at some future point when they are thinking of you and trying to understand what you meant, stood for, and believed--they will have something to refer to. Better to be understood than misunderstood, and better to leave something succinct and comprehensible than utter confusion.

    On the last concern you mention, it could be your body signalling to you via your subconscious mind that something is about to go critical. OTOH, it could be your conscience signalling that there is something important you didn't do yet. Is there anyone you should talk to, say something to, leave something to, etc. that you haven't? Maybe you should start out making a list of whatever concern/person comes to your mind. Sometimes this will shake something like this loose for me.

    Cordially,
    S&S
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2019
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  19. Polaris8

    Polaris8 Senior Member

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    Kenj,

    Sorry to hear that! Not sure what part of the US you are in but I totally understand. Living in SF there is by far a more liberally state of consciousness here. In many ways living here is the closest thing to living in Europe one can get while living in the states. In fact many of my friends from Europe feel right at home here. However having done some traveling in this lifetime both in the US and aboard I have experienced the different states of group consciousness in different parts of our country. There is a defined feel in the South and Midwest that tends to be more main stream and traditional in terms of spiritual awareness. So in general while there I respect those of a different mind set as I understand they are not ready yet to understand that soul already lives in eternity.

    To them this is the only lifetime we have and that's it. So it's best to leave them as is. When they are ready they will inquire and ask. When this does happen I can only open the door for them to see a different perspective however I can not make them go thru that door. That must be done by them as we all have free will. Also I am reminded by them that at one time I too as soul was once in that state of spiritual awareness many lifetimes ago. So we all go thru these different stages of spiritual development as we unfold as soul. There is no right or wrong way as it's all part of the journey. I have come to understand that it is not the goal that changes us as much as the journey getting there. And this has made all the differences in learning to love unconditional all life in the cosmos.

    Peace and love to you my friend.
    P.
     
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  20. KenJ

    KenJ Assistant Archivist and Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    A forum member has graciously been reviewing the sixty-six ramblings I've written about my life that is a mixture of living with my disability, fractured marriage, and reincarnation that I'm trying to put more "flesh" into.
    Between Cincinnati and Dayton Ohio for about seventy years. I spent three months across the bay from you in 1973 when SF was a good place to visit.
    It felt a though someone close to me was in trouble. This sensitivity is causing me to question myself too much. The doctor I visited and felt that death was stalking one of his children has not happened, although I have not yet been back to see him, only phone contact with his office. It could have been that I was dehydrated or a problem with my wife's grandson that she is babysitting.
     
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