Demonic Possession - A Psychiatrist Speaks

Discussion in 'Parapsychology' started by SeaAndSky, Jul 1, 2016.

  1. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    This is a very interesting article. The physician writing the article reports phenomena that many don't want to hear about. In fact, the vitriol in the comments following the article is pretty amazing. We do, indeed, live in a largely materialist society, and these folks DO NOT to like having their paradigm challenged. This seems to be even more true when it is being challenged by someone who has credentials that make him less easy to dismiss than some others who report on these phenomena. Perhaps the venom is partially the result of the fact that they see him as some sort of traitor to his position as part of the scientific/materialist hierarchy. Anyhow, interesting stuff:


    https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/07/01/as-a-psychiatrist-i-diagnose-mental-illness-and-sometimes-demonic-possession/#comments


    I do not know if I accept his explanation of the origin of these beings, but nonetheless . . . .


    S&S
     
  2. Mere Dreamer

    Mere Dreamer Super Moderators Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I find it interesting how he presents possession as the primary (if not sole) explanation for the unexplained phenomena. And I wonder what conclusion he would come to if he were not so heavily influenced by Catholicism. That there is evil in this world, I have no doubt. However, simplistic explanations remain simplistic even when they're created via a combination of psychiatric science and a single source of spiritual beliefs.


    Is it possession when one's own past strongly surges to the forefront after a triggering episode? What about extrasensory perception makes it Satanic by nature? Sometimes the primary difference between one such individual and the unlucky "other" is that Saints call it a miracle and name God as the source of such knowings instead of resorting directly to fear-based reactions.


    These are the questions his perspective leads me to ... *sighs*
     
  3. Isha

    Isha Senior Registered

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    I agree with Mere Dreamer, I think the author is too influenced by Catholicism. He uses terminology like "Satan"/fallen angels/devil/demons which entered Catholicism from mistranslations of the "OT". These terms/ideas don't even exist in the original Hebrew. There is no "Devil" named Satan, etc. in the "OT".


    Obviously evil exists, but there are other explanations, like Mere Dreamer said..........
     
  4. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi Mere/Isha,


    Thanks for responding. Apologies for not getting back to you sooner—holidays intervened. I appreciate your critiques, but I think both of you are missing the major points of the article—at least in terms of why I posted it. The point of the article for me is that, though most reports of this type are related to normal varieties of mental illness, these beings exist. Further, they can possess or otherwise cause problems for people, and they can likewise be neutralized/cast out—in most cases that I have heard of by utilizing and calling upon the power of God. The fact that these entities exist raises questions about their origin. The fact that they can and seem to desire to possess and/or torment humans raises questions about their nature, motivations, powers, and relationship to humans. The fact that they can be cast out raises questions about the sources of power for this act, because they clearly do not want to go.


    It doesn’t take much research to confirm that they have been acknowledged to exist by almost every religion:


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon.


    Certainly, as this and other articles indicate, this has included Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. I think the questions outlined are those that deserve treatment. I do agree that this may include critiquing viewpoints that you may consider deficient or erroneous. However, what I was really hoping was that board members would throw their own hats into the ring and give their own beliefs and theories (so that we can compare them to what else is on the table).


    For my part, I will go with the Origenists, who generally seemed to believe that we all started out equally as spirits contemplating and communing with God and each other in perfect bliss, and that some fell away from this, falling to various depths and seeking to recover our former position, with the demonic being pretty much the end of the line. (Consequently, we are all fallen angels with some falling further than others). The course of growth or devolution from this state can seemingly be quite a bumpy process, and may not always involve the inevitable progress upwards that optimists seem to expect. See, e.g.:


    http://www.reincarnationforum.com/threads/my-personal-nemesis.6334/


    Anyhow that is just my starting position, so I’m not heavily vested in it as an ultimate viewpoint. Have at it! Feel free to critique, but please don’t neglect to give your own thoughts, theories, etc. as well. By the way, this whole phenomenon, including the case just cited, seems to go very well with the teachings about the Dibbuk, an entity who is probably well known to Isha:


    https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0005_0_05197.html


    According to the article above, “They were generally considered to be souls which, on account of the enormity of their sins, were not even allowed to transmigrate and as "denuded spirits" they sought refuge in the bodies of living persons.” Sounds pretty close to the definition and action of “demons” to me, and also would go pretty well with my approach.


    Cordially,


    S&S
     
  5. Eowyn

    Eowyn Wrought out of steel

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    I fully agree with this:

    I disagree with this:

    Now, I must say I've always been interested in demonic possession and I'm familiar with the work of some exorcists of the Vatican. I also think possession as such exists, and like Mere Dreamer, I also think "evil spirits" exist and sometimes they do try to possess a person, because they want to be alive as much as any other spirit, especially if they are in the astral plane and haven't gone to higher dimensions. However, I think the real possessions would be even less frequent than these exorcists believe. The psychiatrist in the article says:

    I don't see any "proof" of demonic possession in anything he describes here. I don't think contempt for religion would necessarily mean the spirit is of an evil kind. I'd wager for a subconscious reject of religion from this person, because religion is often imposed on us, shaping our behaviour, sometimes even forcing us to do things we just don't want to. I'm thinking of a case I recently saw in a documentary, of a Spanish person who thought he was living in a haunted house, where apparently paranormal "attacks" against religious figures were taking place. But as happens in many of these cases, when specialists studied the case they saw it seemed more a poltergeist caused unconsciously by this person, even though he declared he was religious himself and seemingly didn't have a problem about it.


    Likewise, I'm convinced that phenomena like speaking strange languages (something we often see in people who wake up from a coma), hidden knowledge, or levitation (and I coud name many others I've seen described in cases of supposed Virgin apparitions), doesn't necessarily point to a different entity, evil or not. The more I've studied this type of events, the more convinced I've become we underestimate so much the power of our minds. And of course, as there's something we don't understand, it's always easier to put the blame in something external to ourselves than looking for the answer in our own minds. I think the latter is quite scarier. And of course I'm not talking of just mental disorders, but the "real" power of our mind, unleashed, that yes, possibly can influence the physical world (including our own bodies) to limits we can't even imagine.


    As I've often stated in other occasions, I think religious beliefs only worsen things. In this case, it's clear the religious influence in the psychiatrist. Adding the label "demonic" to a supposed possession when we can't even know (or it's really hard) if someone is possesed or not, only brings fear and stigma, and more than a child murder has occurred because the parents thought their baby was possessed, due to plain ignorance. So, no doubt we must be careful when we handle these cases. The fact that many religions talk of demons isn't proof of their existence. This only proves there's something common to all cultures that we don't understand, and each of those cultures built their own myths around them. Some call them "demons", some call them a different name. The fact that they can be neutralized using "the power of God" like you said isn't proof either (someone has tried to invoke the power of Son Goku, for example, in an exorcism, and see what happens? Or just imagine Light? When you astral travel you only use the power of your mind and your imagination to get rid of evil entities, why should it be different here?)

    This paragraph is quite good, if it wasn't for the last question. If he's saying that we must think of demonic possession just because someone starts speaking Latin, then it's clear why he thinks he's seen more possessions than everyone else. Probably he's seeing what he wants. By the way, Ian Stevenson describes in his literature one or two cases of possession that really look like possession... though he never mentions the word "demonic", why? Just because the subject didn't levitate? Didn't have bad reactions to Catholic symbols? And what if those Catholic symbols don't mean a thing for the person possessed?

    Obviously you are free to believe what you want, and though I share the view that "the course of growth or devolution" is a bumpy process (IF spiritual evolution exists at all, thing I'm not certain about), again I don't see the need to label and so separate the souls who "fall to various depths". Everyone is free to choose their own path, even "demonic" ones. Nothing wrong about it. Light and darkness are everywhere. God (if he exists) loves both just the same. For my part, I'll go with my own view, which is we are here to experiment the good and the bad, and just learn if we want to. There's nothing good and evil at such, those are just human labels we use according to our own interests. Out of here, in the spiritual world, our human views mean nothing, and there are not "Angels and Demons", just souls making their own choices.
     
  6. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi Eowyn,


    I think you have made some very valuable points, and given me some additional insights into some of the things that Mere commented on. We seem to be in the process of defining what is and is not possession, and what constitutes proof of possession. The author of the article rightly distinguishes between possession and psychological disorders. Mere points out that some of the things the author latched onto as seeming proof of possession, such as mediumistic abilities, are not necessarily proof of possession. Likewise, though you support the idea that a disembodied soul might seek to possess or act through the body of another, you point out that not all phenomena generally seen to be indicative of “possession” need be the result of possession by an external entity. Such phenomena, including poltergeist type phenomena, may be—if I understand you correctly—the individual’s own suppressed tendencies (Freudian Id or Jungian Shadow?) manifesting as a separate personality and simultaneously tapping into the individuals own psychic potentials. This seems to me to be a condition intermediate between external possession and a more typical mental disorder, where the mental disorder manifests with the type of psychic phenomena normally associated with external possession.


    However, even after paring down the phenomena, we still seem to end up with a category of possession by external entities, though we have a lengthening list of conditions/phenomena that may mimic (but is not) such possession. From there, the question of source for these entities and their proclivities remain points in dispute. Likewise, other areas such as the realm of exorcism and how it is accomplished remain more than a bit fuzzy. I note your position vis-a-vis individual will and freedom playing the ultimate role in all of this, seemingly with no particular goal or direction imposed by anything external to the individual. I do not necessarily agree. However, I do recall another researcher that, though religious, also gave a great deal of primacy to individual will in the exorcism process. I will see what I can find by him on the matter as I think it may be of interest.


    Cordially,


    S&S
     
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  7. Eowyn

    Eowyn Wrought out of steel

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    I think that a good way to evaluate if we are before a real case of possession, would be to compare it with the way spirits communicate through mediums. In cases of physical mediumship, where supposedly (that is, once we can discard fraud) a spirit takes possession of the medium for a while, we'd find a different source of knowledge, different voices, different language, etc. As far as I know (I'm not an expert), in order to do this, the medium has to lose consciousness and allow the spirit to take control of his body, and usually the medium doesn't remember anything afterwards. In the Stevenson's case I made reference to in my previous post, it seems the previous personality died (really died) and a woman who had also recently died some miles away seemingly started to manifestate in this woman, who apparently "revived" and claimed to be a different woman who had been murdered by her own family, showed different mannerisms and talked differently, and of course had memories that didn't correspond to the life of the first woman. I think this is what is commonly known as a "walk-in".


    Of course, we know so very little of this kind of processes that we can only speculate about the mechanism. Can someone be really possessed against their will? Is it necessary that the "soul" (for lack of a better word) has to abandon the body or at least become unconscious so that the other soul can take control? If this were the case, then possibly the so-called demonic possessions wouldn't be such, as the only thing we see is a strange behaviour that in most cases just comes and goes, and it doesn't seem there's a full displacement of the previous personality. So, unless "partial possessions" are possible, or at least we accept there can be an external influence from evil spirits (thing I don't discard either), I think that again most cases could be explained by mental disorders that manifest through this "dissociation" of the personality, which, not surprisingly, I think it's quite common in many psychiatric illnesses. I want to insist that I don't necessarily mean all these type of phenomena would point to a mental disorder. As I said, I think it can be just our own mental potential "gone wild" (of course unconsciously) during a especially stressful period of time, or due to certain events happening in the subject's life. In most cases of poltergeists paranormal phenomena just stop after some time, possibly when those circumstances or stressful time come to an end, and another interesting feature is that it accompanies the subject wherever he goes, unlike in the case of haunted houses, where the phenomena are characteristic of the place and the place alone (with the exception of some cases where "an entity" seems to follow the researcher home, though here we'd have the same problem to discern if there's a real entity behind the phenomena or it's just the person's mind and suggestion provoking them). And I know poltergeists and possessions are related but possibly they are different phenomena anyway.

    Just to clarify, my view on real possessions, which I think are possible, would be similar to any other illness. I'm not saying you want to become ill or possessed, only that something has to be working wrong in your body or mind so that the spirit can influence you to that point. Maybe you have to "open some doors" to let "the evil" come in, though these doors are not what usually priests will name as the cause of possessions, that is, you don't need to "sin" or have "evil thoughts" to become possessed, probably you just need to give permission to those entities to come and use your body. No wonder they say many of these possessions start when playing ouija. I know a documented case or two that ended in suicide, and though I certainly support the idea that suggestion and the power of your mind plays an important role, it's harder to claim that a perfectly normal person (though we'd have to ponder "how normal" every one of us is), after playing ouija, would end up hurting their own family or killing themselves without the influence of an evil entity. There could also be a combination of the two factors, why not? But I think, in general, persons who seem to be possesed aren't perfectly healthy, balanced persons. I really believe that evil entities have no power on mentally strong people.
     
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  8. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi Eowyn,


    The only exorcism material I have read came either from chance articles (like the one originally posted) or from my reading many years ago of a couple of authors: Malachi Martin (an RC priest and exorcist) and M. Scott Peck, a psychiatrist and exorcist who was befriended by Martin. I recall from Martin's book that only partial possessions were subject to reversal as there had to still be an operative portion of the subject's will opposing the possession for there to be any chance of success. A "complete" possession meant that there was no longer an operative portion of the subject's will that could be reached and worked with and/or could any longer oppose or fight against the possessing entity. In those days, with a relatively simple hell/heaven dichotomy in my mind, this was it, and that was that. I am not sure how to deal with this idea from a reincarnation standpoint. I can hardly imagine that this state continues indefinitely, it seems that there would be some outside intervention in some form, but I really don't know how/when/who.


    Though both authors emphasized the necessity of the subject's will to fight the possession, my recall is that Martin (who was more "old school") emphasized the operation of God and the exorcist more in the process, where Peck seemed to see the patient's own struggle/decision as primary with God and the exorcist facilitating the process. According to Peck:


    "In an exorcism the No. 1 exorcist ultimately is the patient himself or herself. The successful end of exorcism, the expulsion of the demon, occurs only when a patient chooses to sever his or her relation with the demonic. There are four levels of things going on in exorcism and the most important factor is the patient’s choice. The second is, I believe, that God literally comes into the room and helps out. The kind of change the patient makes is so radical that I’m not sure it can be accomplished without the assistance of God. The third is the team [of assistants] that operates as a community, something which the patient and the demonic have perhaps never experienced. The fourth is the exorcist himself — or hopefully herself, one of these days — who is crucial to success since it is he who makes the diagnosis and gathers the team together."


    The foregoing quote is taken from an article here: http://www.salon.com/2005/01/18/peck_5/ BTW, the article also discusses the differences between deliverances and exorcisms, which I found interesting. If you're interested in reading some fairly hair-raising and riveting exorcism stories, as well as some of the theoretical underpinnings of the process (from a RC standpoint), I noticed in scanning articles that there is a copy of Martin's book online.


    Cordially,


    S&S
     
  9. Eowyn

    Eowyn Wrought out of steel

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    Hi, SeaAndSky, Peck's quote is quite interesting, but a few questions come to my mind:


    1. If the existence of demons is not proven, how can we assume from the beginning that it's a demon causing the patient's issue? I guess this is just the interpretation that a religious person (as most exorcists are) is making of the whole event. I know that any psychiatric illness should have been discarded before, but still I consider it is a bit dangerous to assume there's truly a demon doing something.


    2. From the few cases I've known, I've never seen a patient claiming "I'm possessed" (I think the writer of the first article said that normally someone who says this is not really possessed, didn't he?), so I don't see how they could sever their relation with the demon if, at least at a conscious level, they are not aware of the alleged possession. Or must we also assume that this "healing" takes place at a "soul level" and the "conversation" of the patient with the demon is spiritual? And if it is, where's the difference with any other mental illnesses?


    3. Forgive me (and I know we come from very different places), but I just don't see God himself coming to the room and helping, unless once again Peck or whoever is witness to the exorcism calls "God" any supernatural phenomenon that might take place during the process. Unfortunately we tend to call "godly" any bright light that appears, and "demonic" any black shadow, when sometimes black shadows have also been of help to certain witnesses (I'm talking mainly of ghostly apparitions, or for example some "beings" that are said to watch over babies from the other side).


    What I'm trying to say here is that undoubtedly the beliefs of all the people involved in this kind of phenomena influence too much the process, and so it's quite hard, if not impossible, to be totally objective about what is really happening here. Like they say in science, the observer always influence what he observes. I wouldn't even discard that the minds of the participants add up to the phenomena and the way it evolves. It kind of reminds me other religious phenomena like the aforementioned Virgin apparitions, where the mixture of faith, suggestion, and the subconscious power of the witnesses' minds create a special energy in the place that even the skeptics can feel, even more if you're a sensitive/psychic person. But honestly, and always admitting that I believe there could really be something supernatural at play, my doubts always remain about how much of this is just a result of our own psyche. Virgin apparitions usually are accompanied by some light, at least at the beginning, before other people start to take advantage and the real fraud begins. This is only an idea I've had right now, but I'm starting to think demonic possessions could be the other side of the coin. Maybe there is indeed an evil entity interfering at the beginning, but I'd say the rest is just a show where human beings are the main actors.


    Anyway, thanks for the links and the information!
     
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  10. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi Eowyn:


    On point 1: I think the name "demon" can be taken to stand for a general category of evil beings/phenomena. These beings are considered to be disembodied hostile attacking entities that are not of the patient's own creation/imagination and seek to possess/control the patient. "Demon" is a bit of a loaded term carrying a lot of baggage, but I'm not sure we have a better term. When I use the term, I am not intending to include all of the baggage. As noted in an earlier email, the description of the Dibbuk I linked to earlier seems to fit the phenomena pretty well IMO. But that is just a fairly good theoretical explanation that I am inclined to believe. Really, we are still talking about "something" that we don't totally understand. Basically, a demon/hostile entity/whatever is what is left after all of the exclusively naturalistic/psychological explanations are exhausted. This doesn't mean that the attack is not facilitated or made possible by such factors, just that something else is involved, and it seems to constitute a separate/sentient disembodied entity/being.


    On point 2: I don't know if I quite understand what you are saying here. I think all of the writers say that most people claiming to be possessed are not possessed, but suffering from psychological conditions. However, after eliminating those with physical/psychological pathologies that totally explain their condition, there remains a category that are considered to be suffering from some form of demonic possession/obsession. I don't recall that any form of communication between the patient and the demon is sought, though I'm no expert. The patient is generally involved in dis-engaging with the entity involved, so further communication would seem to be counter-productive. From what I can tell, any communications are by the exorcist with the patient consenting.


    On point 3: I don't see any problem with God being involved. The infinite one is considered to span and be cognizant of and control/influence everything from microcosm to macrocosm, quark to multi-verse, so I don't see the problem there. How God's aid manifests, as light, shadow, strengthening of the participants, inspirations, good advice, etc. can vary greatly. I'm not too particular myself, though I always prefer the most painless and least scary way myself.


    On the final paragraph: I think some phenomena can be explained this way. However, not all. I'd be cautious on that one. With a little work it could be used to explain away almost everything and anything.


    Cordially,


    S&S


    PS--Once again, I'm not promoting a particular religious view-point in terms of the phenomena, though I personally believe that these entities exist. Demon is a nice short label, but I'm open to another if you think the term "demon" is too loaded with unproven or controversial religious connotations. I would hope that any alternative term we could agree on would be just as short.
     
  11. Eowyn

    Eowyn Wrought out of steel

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    Yes, here my issue wasn't with the term itself, as I said earlier for me "demon" is just synonym of "evil entity". The point is that when it comes down to it, is there a totally objective way to differentiate if the problem is caused by something internal or external to the individual? When can we consider that the naturalistic/psychological explanations are exhausted? If the individual has gone back to his normal behaviour, then there's not a reason to think he's possessed, is there?


    For example, I do believe in spiritual communication through mediums (though the message is always too heavily influenced by the channel's mind), but why is there so much skepticism about it? Because, obviously, it is something very easy to fake. Even in the most elaborated ones, there are known techniques like cold reading that can be used. Now, of course, you can say levitation, supernatural strength, speaking Latin, the changes in the tone of voice, etc. (which we can also see in physical mediumship), are something else, these can't be easily faked. I agree, but here is where my doubt arises. I think no one can really know is this is caused by the possessing entity or just the patient's mind. I think we'd need an objective method here to differentiate both. For example, in that Stevenson's case we had new memories that corresponded to another person and could be later verified, but still the doubt lingers: just as happens with reincarnation skeptics, we can always find an explanation in extrasensorial perception or even super-psi.

    If that's true, then maybe we have another reason to think there is no other entity involved. Aren't we prone to think in general that a person possessed would at least say "I hear voices in my brain that tell me I must kill"? Or is this just a sign of mental illness? (Personally I think people who hear voices are generally very sane and healthy). Let's not forget that the boundaries of mental illnesses are also tricky. During all this conversation (quite interesting, btw) I have in mind the multiple personality disorder. This "dis-engaging" you talk about reminds me of it too. As I was saying, it seems to me it all depends on how the observer interpretates the phenomenon. We can say it's an external entity, yes. We can also say the fight is against a different facet of the patient's dissociated personality, is there a way to know? Maybe the efficacy of the exorcism would be proof enough? Could be, I really don't know. And I do believe that in a very low number of the cases, there is really a possession.

    Hmm... well, yes, I also believe God can manifest that way, but I'm not so sure that there is indeed a fight between "the good and evil" forces, as I don't believe in absolute good and evil in the spiritual world. The other day I read some reflections of someone who said God's will is in everything. I don't think there is really a separation between God and the Demon. If it's true God is eternal love, if it's true God is forgiveness, if it's true we all have free will (and this includes evil souls), then He wouldn't need to fight against the dark, He would just let the demons be. He just loves everything, and as a good father He will let us learn by ourselves. Is He going to help if we invoke Him? We don't need to either. We are God, aren't we? We can be darkness and we can be light, whatever we choose. So, even when we keep calling that light God, we still fail to see that light is ourselves too, it's our own power that we can use at will. Maybe that's all the power we see in the case of demonic possessions and exorcisms.


    So, I guess my whole meaning in all this is always the same: WE are responsible of everything that happens on Earth, and we are just not aware of our enormous potential to do good or do evil. I think that when we truly understand that, we'll make a huge spiritual progress.
     
  12. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi Eowyn,


    Apologies, it took me some time to get back to this. In your first two sections, you raise a question that I have sought to answer--in reverse--with regard to PL memories. I.e., you comment that there is nothing in the phenomena that absolutely rules out the idea that the issue is internal rather than external. Thus, the "possessing" entity may be a disassociated part of the patient. I continue to have a similar problem in terms of PL memories--from the other direction. So, are the memories that I think are "internal" mine, or am I just tapping into "external" stored "first person" memories "out there" somewhere? (Insert Akashic record if desired).


    I remember discussing this on a thread somewhere, and finally coming to the conclusion that--in the words of the old adage--if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is almost certainly a duck. This may not be science, but it was the best I could do. In another context, with reference to Dr. Weiss, he came to the conclusion that the memories he was dealing with were the patient's own memories because he could achieve a cure by dealing with them as the patient's own ("internal") memories--something he would not have been able to do by engaging unreal patient fantasy, etc. However, I can't claim anything like this for myself, so I am left without this extra verification.


    Still, both in terms of PL memories and possession, being able to ABSOLUTELY prove that the PL memories are mine/internal and the possessing entity is not me/external does create a dilemma. Frankly, I'm not sure that it can be done. However, recourse to the "duck" principle--which I think is just a folksy restatement of "Occam's Razor"--is probably the best solution in both situations. And yes, I do consider that an external entity provides a simpler and more direct explanation for possession, just as personal PL memory is a simpler more direct explanation than tapping into "first person" memories stored externally. Also, getting back to Dr. Weiss, I am very doubtful that the exorcism procedure would effect any kind of cure in dealing with an internal part of the person. How could it, the internal personality fragment has nowhere to go? It seems that an internal part that was causing trouble in this way would just continue to cause problems until it was duly incorporated and dealt with by the patient. Exorcism is the opposite of engagement and incorporation--it is outright rejection.


    Anyhow, it may be that we cannot arrive at an absolute answer, but I think the external hypothesis for possession and the internal hypothesis for PL memory are both simpler and better than their alternatives. Plus, though I cannot confirm either by a "cure" in my own case, I think the fact that treatment of the possessing entity as external and treatment of PL memories as internal leads to a cure in many/most cases is also entitled to substantial weight in understanding and dealing with both phenomena.


    Overall, sloppy solutions to both questions, but probably the best that can be managed--at least by me.


    Cordially,


    S&S


    PS--I know I've failed to touch on some things you've mentioned, but the only one I have time to touch on at the moment is the idea of God's love for demons. The fact that God could love an evil entity/person of any kind does not mean that God consents to, supports, and will not act to stop their evil actions. The same is true for me vis-a-vis my own children--and I certainly love them. Sorry I can't get to more.
     
  13. Norton

    Norton New Member

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    This is a slightly simple subject occult-wise, Eowyn has got the right end of the stick !
    The vast majority of Possessions are simple suggestion due to a religious upbringing and nervous personality. Normally a Cathartic Roman Catholic ritual will do the trick in 90% of cases. These can be brought on by misinterpreting psychic or mental phenomena and internalising it.
    Now for the other 10%
    Occult wise there are all sorts of spirits out there. Not many have their own mind at all. For example poltergeist phenomena that has been mentioned - almost always simple case of psychic energy due to rapid brain changes such as anything from puberty to meditation or drugs. Uncontrolled psychic energy. However to mention this to the distressed girl it almost always happens to would produce a feeling of possession and has done in many cases. One should never tell a poltergeist engine that they are doing it. Let them think it's just playful ghosts - it's actually much less harmful.
    On the other hand. There are all kinds of spirits out there. Elementals. Artificial elementals or thought forms. These have no real will of their own. They could never possess anyone, but they could cause poltergiest effects and images of beings. Best to either ignore these or to set them to do something for you. Treat them kindly.
    If they are not treated kindly they can cause places of extreme darkness because of their rage. Bad places etc.
    The next stage up are what is called lower Astral entities. These ALWAYS give the impression of being a demon- and yet you could walk through them with no ill effect if you are confident. The worst they can do is convince you they can harm you , normally by being of ugly appearance etc but sometimes by being extremely beautiful which is obviously worse as you could take lying entities for true entities. Messing with a Ouija board for instance gets these creatures through quite often. In fact in almost all cases . Many different types of beings and forms on this level - entities that are like leeches draining off your positive emotion are a very common one but positive energy banishes these , they can't live on happy hosts. A banishing ritual of any kind will clear the air of these things. Don't treat kindly.
    Then there are two other classes. Actual intelligence out there are normally called Demons from the Greek Daimon meaning intelligences or spirits. They have to be evoked and it's a very difficult magickal operation. They pretty much have no interest in us normally because they inhabit different planes . Same as the actual Archangel Raphael not turning up into your living room or in church when you call for his aid, Lucifer is just not going to turn up if you pray to him - but making a connection with any entity that powerful until you are Master is incredibly dangerous - they won't possess you, they will obsess you. They are just 'too high up the food chain' to see you as an equal , they may see someone like Buddha as above them, but they won't see you in that way.
    Daimons can be also *divine* intelligences such as Socrates Angel/Spirit who he called Genius. The concept of the Holy Guardian Angel is the same thing as Socrates Genius.. So both for good and bad there are major beings out there. Contact with anything on this level will alter the mind immensely for good or ill.
    All of them are high astral beings, and some higher than that.
    Treat with immense respect, use all your well learned politess and get on a few months of spiritual practice to cleanse your mind of the huge impact that some can have. It's if your Angel of course - then don't worry, a spiritual path would just bring you closer with Him anyway.

    Then there are the last class which I won't talk about much -in the sense of how to contact them anyway - dangerous to talk of as the Hebrews put it. They are called 'Shells' They are truly destructive beings or aspects of both OURSELVES and the Ancient Hebrews had them as cast off energy of creation making a false Tree of Life. These are the cases of possession that baffle the doctors. This is the really bad stuff. The stuff we don't know is in us.
    These will have to be integrated in a true spiritual master such as Buddha, Christ (at his death), Ramana Maharshi in the years of silent meditation etc. But if let loose before the time when you are at that incredibly high level to do it - well - then you get full bells and whistles possession of the most destructive aspects of your lower self let loose 'outside' yourself. Whole families have been through exorcisms because when you clear one it jumps to the next weakest. Normally caused by extreme mental illness ( the barriers break and the monsters get out) , messing around with the occult without a spiritual path or extreme bad luck by being in an environment where someone else invoked it or hard drugs like Meth.
    Extreme regression , such as barbarity, perversions and all sorts of our animal anscestor nastiness is a result of stirring these things in our lower selves . A cat might be obeying it's animal soul when it tortures a mouse - but when a PERSON evokes that same energy (and we have it from our ancestory)- we see it in serial killer news reports - or terrorist activity etc etc. eventually the personality is completely taken over and no self is left. See Charlie Manson or the Aztecs at the end of their Empire - I have a feeling that the entire people regressed due to these influences.
    Treat with a Magickal excorcist or a Saint.
    Eowyn is correct that a person healthy in mind would almost never be effected by the lower level stuff enough to even notice it and the big stuff won't turn up at your door unless you know how to phone them up.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
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  14. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi Norton,

    Welcome to the forum. It is interesting to get the viewpoint of someone who is not only receptive to the general ideas being discussed, but has fairly well-defined concepts in terms of different "types" of meddlesome entities/phenomena. I'm a time-to-time reader in the areas currently referred to as "magickal", but that is not my path, I'm just looking for insights. I read a bit of what was available in the late 60s, and nothing more until about 10 years ago when I read "The Magus" online and dallied a bit with the various renaissance writers. Since then, I have spent time with Bardon, Dion Fortune, and Kingsford (who was not really a magic type, but seemed to inspire a lot that followed). However, I typically just plunge in for a few months, get a bit jaded and then take a very long break. As mentioned, this is not my path, though I find it a useful source of alternate viewpoints and information. I've often wondered why there didn't seem to be more folks of this persuasion on the board.

    Cordially,
    S&S

    PS--There may be more than I think, but if so, they're not announcing it.
    PPS--One reason for my interest in this particular area is that I had a couple of very scary encounters in my life, which made me wary of what was "out there".
     
  15. Norton

    Norton New Member

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    (I had most of my reply typed out when we had a powercut - so lets try again)
    Hello S&S and thanks for the weclome.
    'However, I typically just plunge in for a few months, get a bit jaded and then take a very long break.'
    Right. To follow this path without oaths to succeed, daily practice and guidance results in a high burnout rate. I've had years off. Even someone as dedicated as Crowley had times where he was absolutely sick of the magickal path and did other things until a new wave of enthusiasm gripped him. It's a recognised stage of people who are *on* the path , let alone off it ;)

    There's a few reason you don't see many magicians on boards. Most serious ones, those who are accomplishing the 'Great Work in Orders who have oaths not to reveal anything to anyone outside the order, and many solo magicians take the oath 'to keep silent' . Not for any spooky reasons, just that working and talking are mutually exclusive.
    Solo magicians you see online tend to be those who flood the message boards with their first evocation and have a 'master' who is 19. A lot of these don't care about reincarnation, just low black magick in which their fantasy's are fulfilled so you wouldn't see them here thank the Gods. There's also chaos and left-hand-path magicians who don't bother adopting regular classical viewpoints and tend to make their own. There is not a lot of structure there on the whole.
    So classical magick is very unfashionable. There's far too much study, meditation, boring and bodily painful exercises and self discipline for most peoples idea of a good time. It's basically Western Zen - and Zen, though always admired, has never had an overabundance of people wanting to sit for seven days. It's exclusive to people who feel called to that way - based on how ones mind works. Philosophical questioning crossed with artistic mind tend to be called to Magick. Art and feeling people tend to be called to more earth based paths. People who want to get there quick go to Zen or Advaita. It's all very personal really , undoubtedly tied up with your evolution of lives. Crowley said he was both quiet isolated mystics and bombastic magicians in his past lives. So the soul itself may traverse different paths.
    I think we all end up as Taoists . Personal idea.
    Got a bit off topic there .

    "PPS--One reason for my interest in this particular area is that I had a couple of very scary encounters in my life, which made me wary of what was "out there".

    Oh indeed! That was what got me started ! In the same vein , my friend is phobic of snakes, yet he knows everything about them . Ironically even though I've learned about and experienced a lot of different entities after I started the path, the three main events which got me into the thing in the first place have remained unexplained ! Heheh. Although I have to be honest a thread on this forum has really helped with one of the three.
     
  16. Eowyn

    Eowyn Wrought out of steel

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    Hi, Norton! I just want to say I read your posts and found them very interesting. Thanks for your long explanation!
     
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  17. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi Norton,

    Now you've got me curious about the entity and the thread you're talking about?

    Cordially,

    S&S

    PS--Philosophical questioning coupled with artistic mind-that's a pretty accurate summary. Unfortunately, a lot of what I find in my shallow delvings are immature dabblers who don't know what they're getting themselves into, and post-Gardnerian goulash. As you can tell, I'm more attracted by what I consider to be the classic Western mystical arts and the insights they can give rather than the . . . ahem, modern alternatives. Plus, I'm mostly interested in communion, cooperation, and friendship with the forces that be rather than control and domination--I.e., I'd rather be ROC at Findhorn, not summoning and controlling dark OR light forces. Not sure where that will lead. So far, only to intermittent explorations.
     
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  18. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    I actually have a reason for bumping this thread back up, an article about a "Non-Denominational" Hollywood Exorcist:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...d-exorcist-Ive-cast-demons-Oscar-winners.html

    It is an interesting article overall, she is an interesting person, and I was particularly interested in her description of different types of possessing/oppressive entities. We have another great thread in this general subject area somewhere about evil entities in general, as well as "nature spirits" (one of my favorite subject areas for some reason). I'll have to find that one sometime.

    S&S
     
  19. Jim78

    Jim78 Senior Registered

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    I take anyone that promotes their encounters with evil through interviews with a pinch of salt S&S.

    My own experiences tell me that there's no way I would air my deepest, darkest fears and thats exactly what evil wants you to confront. If this so called medium really confronted true evil she would know that, and would be wary about airing her fears in public.

    Of course she could have some magic that propels evil...but what of the evil in her own self? Nothing propels that.

    I see charlatans all over the place and they creep in the light of attention, they don't skulk in the darkness of truth.
     
  20. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi Jim,

    I don't want to disparage your comments, all of which have a lot of truth to them. However, I still think you should read the article. For one thing, I'd appreciate your comments after you have done so. For another, the person in question doesn't seem to be a publicity hound and does seem to offer a valuable service.

    Cordially,
    S&S
     

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