Dogma Bites Man

Discussion in 'Reincarnation, Religion and Spirituality' started by Steve, Jun 15, 1999.

  1. RavinStar

    RavinStar Guest

    Jeremy;
    I agree that evil does exist in religion today (and yesterday), but I would like to hear your "whopper" of a story anyway.

    RavinStar
     
  2. why

    why Banned

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    Hi folks,
    This is a different view from those who place themselves as equal to God.

    The words of the Prophet:

    "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which dist weaken the nations!

    For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in sides of the north:

    I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

    Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."

    I agree with the Prophet, God has given the gift of Spirit to us but only God is God, not us, his created beings.

    Regards, why
     
  3. RavinStar

    RavinStar Guest

    Why;
    If you have read the originator of this post, Steve, and his Dogma bites Man post, then you would realize that all of the Bible quoting in the world will not mean anything. Since there is so much distorted information in the Bible, how can anyone beleive a particular quote. If the Christian God was a loving God, why would he condemn anyone "... to hell and the sides of the pit."?
    People must start realizing the contradictions in the Bible, instead of accepting the word on blind faith. If you don't use reason, then you are at the mercy of those people who want to control you.
    Break away from your blind faith for awhile and use your own intuition, logic, and reason to come to your own conclusions about what was written a couple of thousand years ago and has been tampered with insistantly during that period.
    I support and respect your understanding at this moment in time, and I know that you will eventually evolve to realize other truths. I just want to encourage you to begin your discoveries now.
    With love,
    RavinStar
     
  4. Steve

    Steve Grand Poobah

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    Ravinstar,

    Nice reply! I couldn't have said it better myself.

    Thanks for your support and literate persistence.

    Steve
     
  5. Nhawk

    Nhawk Guest

    Hi all.

    This is a great thread. Several things...

    Ravinstar said
    I would remind that although I agree the Christian Diety is nonsense, the ideas suggested by the various worldly religions do have validity if properly understood. The concept of prayer is one of these.

    Prayer, in the traditional Christian (and other) sense, consists basically of BEGGING this Creator figure for favors. However, if one will notice- even in the Christian literature it says that if you BELIEVE, it will be given. That is the key... true prayer is actually affirmation not begging. You set, in thoughts, the reality you wish to have, and believing, it becomes true. It usually comes down to the ABILITY to believe. Inherant in begging is the belief that one is not capable of providing the result for one's self. Therefor, it tends to have the opposit effect.

    Prayer to an external diety is only a stepping stone toward the knowledge that the only true diety is internal, and is in fact, the self. No one is granting or denying favors to you BUT you.

    The World Mission Masters(like Jesus) have provided the means of taking a step toward higher understanding...ie- first you believe you are forgiven because He is the son of God- then, that you are forgiven because YOU are the son of God. It's a progression- a learning process- a measured return from the darkness.

    An important factor is that it is not always easy to know what our true beliefs and intent are at the deepest levels and to change them "down there", where they really count. We can simply be not ready to have what we think we want.

    Whoops, got wordy. I'll stop here.

    Hhawk
     
  6. Nhawk

    Nhawk Guest

    Why wrote:


    I can only suggest that we are BOTH the Alpha and the Omega, the Creator and the Created, the ignorant and the omniscient. If that phrase "Alpha and Omega" defines the Creator, what does that mean? It means that He is (and we are) both Creator AND Creation.

    Technically speaking , we are (and He is) Creator EXPERIENCING Creation.

    The physical realm/world/body/etc. is creatIVE substance. We are, at essence, creaTOR substance. We are immersed in the illusion that says we are these temporal bodies, but anyone exercising deep contemplation will recognize that we are not. There's just too much "in there" for that to be true.


    Book suggestion: "The Game Of God"- Hancock and Brugger.

    Nhawk
     
  7. RavinStar

    RavinStar Guest

    Nhawk;
    I really enjoyed your insightful comments about prayer. It seems most people use it as "begging" for favors, because they think God is external and all powerful. Your comment about prayer as the ability to "believe" is powerful. My only question is: believe in what? Does it mean to believe in a God who will answer the prayer, or does it mean believe in yourself and what you are really asking for, for results to happen?
    I like using the word "intent" instead of belief. Intent implies that you desire what you want so much that you can create it to happen. As we start to get rid of all religions we need to start using words that have a definite meaning, as oppose to words like "faith", "belief", "sin", "god", etc. Intent is one of those words that will impower the individual and innitiate creation.
    I like your "stepping stone" idea as well, except that most people get hel up with on the first step, not knowing there are anymore steps to take. Most people take the "son of God" litereally, without the awareness that we are, in fact, the son of god as well. We are all a part of the universal Spirit.
    Again, I appreciate your "Alpha and the Omega" discussion. There exist a paradox that we can't quite understand as Earth beings. The same as trying to understand the concept of "infinity: no beginning and no ending. Cool Stuff!
    RavinStar
     
  8. Nhawk

    Nhawk Guest

    Yes, RavinStar I agree, but don't misunderstand. I'm not suggesting belief IN something or in some external deity. I meant to emphasize "ABILITY" not belief. Intent is a good word too, but here also, it's about ABILITY to intend- the degree to which we are able to KNOW that what we intend is possible, or rather, truly IS.

    I hesitate to bring this next thing up because of the controversial nature of it, but it makes the point in the only way I truly understand it.

    I have experienced- been in the vicinity of- instantaneous healing.
    The only way I can describe the feeling of it is a complete "IS"ness. It simply WAS. There was no doubt, no questioning, no delaying, no... "healing" actually. It was more like the absence of the need to heal- the replacing of one reality with another where there never WAS an ill-health. Our words are inadequate. Even "intent" implies need for change and that's not how it works. It is the ability to simply BE in the state or place where one wishes to be, without the step of changing anything in order to arrive there.

    I hope that makes sense to someone.

    By the way Rstar, I appreciate your insights too.

    Nhawk
     
  9. Nhawk

    Nhawk Guest

    Why,

    "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom".

    Somewhere else on this board I wrote about that phrase. I think it describes a great truth, which I do take to heart.

    We have freedom within the parameters of universal laws and grace manifested from God.

    Of course. Again I agree. I think we may disagree,though, as to just what those laws are, and how they manifest.

    I have no doubt, however, that it is not possible for me to injure the Creator- only offend lesser beings. I'm not worried.

    Nhawk
     
  10. jeremy

    jeremy Guest

    I agree with all of your posts.
    If people especially those trapped in abusive church systems started using logic, reason and started to look within to solve the shackles would come off!
    Ravenstar I would love to share my story with you, I will post it soon.

    Take care!

    Jeremy
     
  11. why

    why Banned

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    Hello Nhawk,

    Thanks for the response and for considering some the things I wrote.

    I have had an instant type of healing. For me it was like being completely in the grip of doubt, fear, and pain. It was a full blown spin out. One moment in the dark valley lost and struggling, the next moment standing on the mountaintop seeing all as it "is". Just being, being in spiritual peace and joy as it really "is". I have an enlightened Master soul of spirit to thank for being part of that healing.

    I have a reflection on a point you made in your last post to me: "It is not possible for me to injure the creator, just to offend lesser beings, I'm not worried." Consider this parapharse of Lord Jesus, "As you do unto the least of my brothers so you do unto me". Who are these lesser beings you are not worried about Nhawk? (beware)

    why
     
  12. RavinStar

    RavinStar Guest

    Nhawk

    I really enjoyed your insights. Although I have never experience an instant healing, I feel that I know what you are talking about. Ram Dass said, "Be Here Now". Act as if the healing is already done in the now-present.
    Are you saying that this ability to Be, to Know, is the secret of prayer? Prayer, then, is not just a bunch of words, but a state of mind.
    The question remaing for me is, "How do I reach this "knowing-now" state?

    Searching for answer, RavinStar.
     
  13. Nhawk

    Nhawk Guest

    Why

    You implied (and continue to imply) that I am in danger of offending the Creator. I clearly stated that I only offend you and your CONCEPT of the Creator(not the same thing at all). Do you really think offending you is a spiritual issue for me? We would all be forever hopelessly mired if that were the case.

    "That which you do unto the least of these, you also do unto Me"... This involves a deep, layered concept about the structure of the totality of who we are that He represented for us and to us. The "least of these" is, in fact, you- in your manifestation on the physical Earth plane. However, the ME he spoke of is the totality. This refers to the ignorance of the spiritual whole by the little individual physical part which does affect the whole of the being. The whole is the totality of what we ARE here on Earth(other planes of existence are involved).

    That was maybe unintelligible, but I haven't thought about this concept in a long time- it's the best I can do.

    Nhawk
     
  14. Nhawk

    Nhawk Guest

    RavinStar

    Are you saying that this ability to Be, to Know, is the secret of prayer?

    Yes, I think I am saying that. It is a state of "knowingness".

    It involves a higher vibrational state as well. You must think in terms of releasing all that weighs you down. Look into that concept.

    The question remaing for me is, "How do I reach this "knowing-now" state?

    All I can say is that it comes down to that old "Thy will be done" thing. It seems to be about aligning with spirit. When those things occurred, it was simply time for it to BE. There was no striving for it, it just WAS. When in oneness with spirit, all things fall into place. It's like a yellow brick road opening up before you- no doubt remains about where to go. You are just going to the only possible destination.

    You need to be in a state of accepting healing for it to manifest, even if it were to come through an "external" conduit to you. That could be a place to start. If you are accepting, and TRULY (there's the catch)ready for the change, AND it fits within the "higher"(still you, but not conscious) plan, it should happen.

    I have, several times, done or taken others through a "following your nose" exercise. This involves just getting up, without preparation, walking outside and GOING somewhere, you know not where, with no plan other than to follow spirit. Might end up driving or walking- whatever. Just GO-trust and follow. See if you don't end up somewhere significant. Can be very enlightening.

    Nhawk
     
  15. RavinStar

    RavinStar Guest

    Nhawk

    I really appreciate you taking the time to comment and offer advice about prayer. I can see the truth in what you say - it is effortless effort and a confidence that it will happen. I know several people who have walked on fire and was never burned in anyway. The certainty to do the walk may be something of the certainty to receive a healing. Do you think there is a connection?

    Another area: A few post ago you said "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." Then you commented on it as "a great truth". My problem with that statement is how can there be wisdom in fear? Fear is one of most destructive forces in our existance. Fear is at the root of all negative emotions and behavior.

    The only real thing in this world is love. Fear is the absence of love. That is one of my biggest problems with Christianity - fear God! I want to love a god, not fear him. I want to love my wife, not fear her. Fear is so controlling and confining. Any great truth is only found in love.

    With love, RavinStar
     
  16. Nhawk

    Nhawk Guest

    Rstar

    No, no. I was just going with the phrase as it was written there. Fear is not at all what that means in deeper aspect. This is the problem with various religious dogma. The kernel of truth is there, but it may be couched in terms that can mislead ones who do not know how to understand it. Jesus said precisely this- it is for those who "get" it, not for those who don't.

    I described my take on that phrase somewhere else on this board, but I'll do it again. It simply means that we are well advised to seek the "higher" source of knowledge which is available to us. RESPECT or ACKNOWLEDGMENT is a better translation than fear. It just means that we need to find the humility look beyond our narrow, surface view of what we are and listen to the more subtle voice.

    Our consciousness is overwhelmed by the physical plane experience. We have to listen very carefully to hear spirit whispering beneath the white noise. It just means that we should not take, as our master, our "worldly" consciousness.

    Take the phrase: "The meek shall inherit..."
    Who are the "meek"- the weak, the soft, the stagnant? No, meek is a term about teams of horses being RESPONSIVE to the driver. It is a term of ACTION... action within the context of Spirit's intent. It is those who MOVE FOREWORD to the rhythm of the spiritual heart.

    Nhawk

    PS Yes, the firewalk is an excercise in eliminating doubt. That works better than striving for confidence because our natural state is confidence and invulnerability. Doubt(and fear)is the foreign influence which allows the injury.
     
  17. RavinStar

    RavinStar Guest

    Nhawk

    That is one of the major problems with the Bible - it needs to be translated to make sense. However many people take the words of the Bible at face value. Fear means "fear". Meek means "meek". And why shouldn't they?

    I can see the wisdom in your translation of it. I feel, however, we should stop quoting the bible to make a point. It is to confusing. It has already caused much destruction to our civilization and will continue to until it is eradicated. Let's say what we mean in our own language without the need of translating it. When we have to translate, everyone comes up with a different point of view. That is where the conflict lies.

    RavinStar.
     
  18. why

    why Banned

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    Hi Nhawk,

    I thought you covered the parapharse I mentioned quite well. "What you do unto the least of my brothers you do unto me". I'll add that this teaching on actions and reactions across a broad spectrum is more than just another intellectual "concept" to me.

    Concerning any direct offenses against me, we may have a misunderstanding? I was thinking more along the lines and attitude of what is called yama and niyama or non-violence in thought or action. I need much practice along such lines, and that practice will never end for me or basically anyone else I far as I know.

    why
     
  19. Nhawk

    Nhawk Guest

    RS

    Well, yes, but we only have words and they are always limited in ability to describe these things. I only quote that source because it is so widely looked to in our culture as THE source of ALL wisdom. It's a big step for people who see the Bible AS God, to leave that behind. It's a good exercise to suggest that what they thought of as an obvious meaning there might not be the whole picture.

    If people still, in the face of all the contradictory interps of that book, think it's THE SOURCE, I try to relate to them from that perspective. I agree, that book is such a horrible anchor for people, but if they see it as a life preserver, they are just not going to let go of it all at once for fear of drowning.

    I try to make the point that it is not so easy to discern "truth" as it may have seemed. The point needs to be made that All truth is opinion, and temporary, until we are able to see more, which, many times, seems to directly contradict what we thought was certain before. But, who wants to hear that? The intellect rebels.

    Thanks for the input.

    Nhawk
     
  20. why

    why Banned

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    Hi RavenStar,

    I read the sincere posts between you and Nhawk. If you guys don't mind, may add a few thoughts along those lines...

    Think of our minds being like water. The water becomes churned up, boiling, even steaming! It is very difficult to see through water in such a state. But when that water becomes still and clear then we begin to see, without distortion, that which we seek. We find that "it" was there all along, we don't have to add "it" to us, or go out and to get "it" from somewhere, or memorize "it" from a book or from the words of another, we already have "it", "it" is the atom of Spirit-joy that we are.

    Good day, why
     

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