Dogma Bites Man

Discussion in 'Reincarnation, Religion and Spirituality' started by Steve, Jun 15, 1999.

  1. RavinStar

    RavinStar Guest

    You're right Why, our minds are a churned up bowl of water. What is causing the churning is the confusion, distortion, misrepresentation, and even deception of most religions. People don't know what to believe. Should they cling to a particular religion just because it is now acceptable in our society? Or search through the thousands of other religions out there, all with different view points?
    I am concerned that the bubbling bowl of water will never settle down enough to see any Truth at the bottom. We have to somehow still the source of agitation. In my opinion we need to abolish all religions and start over again with rational thought. We need reincarnation without religions.

    RavinStar
     
  2. why

    why Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2000
    Messages:
    0
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi RavinStar and Majic,

    Mankind with his religions, will do as mankind with his religions will do, there is no surprize in this. Do we blame the wind for blowing or the snow for falling? There is no surprize in this. Saints and murderers will do as saints and murderers will do. There is no surprize in this. Who hears us when we scream against the wind, and who listens to us when we blame the snow for falling? Is our hand greater than the hand that commands the hearts of saints, or delivers justice to murderers? Go in peace, for the finding of our own way is task enough without pointing out the faults of others.

    Whether our paths are fruitful or full of folly, such will be revealed to us under the sun, for all walk under the same sun and return to dust and spirit.

    why
     
  3. RavinStar

    RavinStar Guest

    Why;

    It is not my intent to point out the faults of others. In most cases it is not an individuals fault that they accepted a particular religion. They have been raised with these beliefs since they were a baby and to most people it becomes a fact, like learning to walk or crying for food. It is real to most people because society has made it real and "forced" it upon others.

    All I'm trying to do is to let a few people know that there are more realities out there. When we are young we believed in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus, when we grew up we outgrew these beliefs as we learned they are made-up. Simularly we need to outgrow the dogma of religions. They are made-up stories for the purpose of gaining power and control. We need to realize how fantastic these stories truly are. Sure, we can all accept a god and "love thy neighbor", but much of the other stuff serves no real purpose.

    No, I am not finding fault with people - they can't help it - I am finding fault with societies' false beliefs that, for some reason, continues to be promoted.

    RavinStar
     
  4. why

    why Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2000
    Messages:
    0
    Likes Received:
    0
    hi RavinStar,

    To me true religion is founded on and reflects and or echos the Spirit into this material world. Such "religion" lives by the Spirit.

    On another level, this is spoken of by the saying, "man does not live by bread only, but by every word (the Spirit) that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord does man live".

    I believe that by chanting an anti-Bible mantra we miss much in it that is deep Spiritual and mystical truths and also its everyday wisdom. These can be found by reading between the lines and or listening with our spirit-soul.

    regards, why
     
  5. Majic

    Majic Senior Registered

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2001
    Messages:
    0
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Canada
    RavinStar;

    Your discussions with Why reminds me of the Allegory of the Cave from Plato's Republic. The people as prisoners of the cave felt the only reality was the shadows on the wall. They couldn't conceive of anything else as being real. Simularly, many people are trapped in the cave of religion and cannot see any other reality. I am discovering that it is almost a hopeless case to even try to offer other points of view to such people. They will certainly reject it to hold on to their shadow reality.

    Create a great day, Majic.
     
  6. why

    why Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2000
    Messages:
    0
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey Majic,

    We,"they", you and me are not really separate, nor is anyone a "hopeless case".

    For all beings arise from an Ocean of wonderous Pure White Light, and this same Ocean arises from inside of the Light which is the One, and the Source.

    I hope for a more universal religion, in the meantime compassion towards all beings, including ourselves, is a good course to follow on the great Ocean of Gods creation.

    Good sailing to you, why
     
  7. RavinStar

    RavinStar Guest

    Thanks for you comments, Majic. Many people are afraid to venture into the light of reality and leave the security of the cave behind. It is difficult to know that you are being controlled and manipulated when that is all you know. As in "dark" there is "light", so in "blind control" there is "freedom". As a society we need to wake up to our "freedom" and start taking responsibility for our lives.

    Why;

    You are right, Why, no one is a "hopeless case". That is why we need reincarnation, because if may take hundreds of life times before many people will wake up to the realization that they have been dooped by the almighty church in the name of power and control.
    I don't hope for "a more universal religion", like you do, Why. I hope for the elimination of all religions. With their elimination all dogma will be erased and some truths will begin to emerge in our world. Right now, we are so confused and brain-washed in religious mumble-jumble that we have lost any sense of who we are. We are not sinners pleading to be forgiven by that bearded man up there. We are creation itself. We are the essence of love. We are purity and wisdom. We are completely responsible for our lives and we can't "blame" a god for our downfalls or salvation.
    Why are we so blind that we can't see our true selves?

    Concerned, RavinStar.
     
  8. Howard Bott

    Howard Bott Senior Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2003
    Messages:
    0
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    San Mateo, CA
    Dogma

    Hi Everyone

    There is certainly a lot of learning on this board, coming from a variety of angles and persuasions. I admit I always feel drawn to the most loving words, not to the most powerfully stated ones.
    (Thank you Deborah. )

    My own opinion--and it is only an opinion, not a natural law--is that the good of any teaching, including reincarnation, has value only insofar as it makes us more willing to be kind in the passing, tiny moments of day to day existence. At some point in my life, without being aware of it as it happened, I must have passed from needing to be right to needing to have peace. At the same time and as a part of the same inscrutable process religion lost meaning for me--who had sought both wisdom and consolation in it over many years. It was not a decision I made because I had made decisions about 'faith' before and always gone back on them. But now, after this 'process' concluded--if it has concluded-- for some reason unknown to me, I don't need to 'see' it because I have discovered--and it's a complete gift, unearned and perhaps even undeserved--I can 'be' it. This may be vague. No, it IS vague.

    Reading back over what I have written I think it may have an unfortunate tone, superior and smug, which I hope is unintended. The truth is I rarely know my motivation for anything right at the time. Some instances when I have felt most burningly sincere I have later discovered myself to have been a raging jackass. Perhaps this is one of those. If it is I am sure someone will point it out.
    The mind, at least my mind, is more of a committee than a monarchy anyway, and the committee has no chairperson, people talk out of turn and out of school, and the chaos out of which all reality is said to have emerged reigns supreme.

    This posting was written, I imagine, by the Spiritual Sub Committee which meets in a mental side room under the motto: "Everyone can be a Smile Millionaire."

    Love
    Howard
     
  9. Howard Bott

    Howard Bott Senior Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2003
    Messages:
    0
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    San Mateo, CA
    Hi Moss
    Me too. Got the idea from Paramahansa Yogananda, a well-known and well-thought-of tacher from India who lived here in the US for thirty years. His foundation, Self Realization Fellowship, continues on in L.A. He said, "Don't worry so much about being a dollar millionaire. Once you get money you then get new worries about trying to keep it instead of relief that you fianlly got it. Be a smile millionaire instead. You already have millions of smiles in your smile bank. Start spending them recklessly. They are wonderful karmic investments that pay dividends both at the moment of spending and also later on in unforeseen ways." (That is a paraphrase of his teaching but I believe an accurate one.)

    All the best
    Howard
     
  10. Candide

    Candide Christian

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2002
    Messages:
    0
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Kiev, Ukraine
    There exists a dogma that the Bible once contained some explicit references to reincarnation but that the corresponding passages were removed, some say, in the 4th century, and some say, later. This dogma has nothing to do with the historical facts and can easily be disproved by turning to the oldest manuscripts of the Scripture, which are available. Still, this dogma continues to bite some people here.

    This is to point out that the Scriptures of the New Testament are available in manuscripts and in the writings of the church fathers in the original Greek beginning from the 2nd century AD, that they are published, and that all those interested are able to check the originals with the translation, so that any deception on this part is effectively excluded.
     
  11. Phoebeofthe3

    Phoebeofthe3 Registered

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2003
    Messages:
    0
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    CA
    wow...

    Wow, I loved those posts. GREAT!!!! RavinStar, I am sooo glad there are other people in the world who think like I do. The excerpt from teh book was wonderful as well. Deborah, your history was also SUPER interesting. I can never find any good texts with views from ancient relegions, and you posted them right here! Soooo cool. Anyway, just wanted to say that.

    My area is full of people who usually retort to me the comment "don't let your mind be so open your brains fall out" when I tell them what I believe. Yeah....right. Considering they go to the church down the street from me that happens to be larger than a small African country and their leader-type-person drives a BMW. Not that I have much against the people or their relegion, just how they've decided to commercialize it and use the power it has over humanity to obtain personal gains.

    Anyway, there's my rant, but great posts, again! Oh yeah! On more question. In the chapter excerpt it mentioned the church taking out passages and ideas, is it true they changed the date of the actual Christmas just so that it was coincide with pagan holidays, as well as easter? Anyway, just wanted to know...

    ~Phoebe
     
  12. Deborah

    Deborah Executive Director

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 1997
    Messages:
    227
    Likes Received:
    199
    Location:
    CA - USA
    Hi Phoebe,

    It's my understanding that -

    In Europe an old Celtic tradition was that a local priest, on the shortest day of the year (winter solstice) would go to the top of the highest hill and burn a tree. At that time the average person did not understand the changing of seasons and the tilt of the earth's angle.

    The Celtic Priests would promise to re-ignite the sun to full brilliance around December 25th. The largest pine tree was brought to the top of the hill and burned, and the priests power and control over the sun would be affirmed; for the next few weeks, nature would comply and the days began to get longer.

    Historians believe that Jesus actual birth date was not in December, but in April. And Early Christians did not celebrate Jesus birth. BUT - the Romans proclaimed the date, and by coincidence, most residents in Europe were burning trees on hill tops on that day.

    So today, we light our trees in our homes and celebrate the birth of a man who lived over 2000 years ago. Not thinking even once, about the winter solstice.

    I will dig up info on Easter - later tonight.
     
  13. yoki

    yoki Senior Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2003
    Messages:
    0
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    New Zealand
    The topic and replies are an enjoyable read both thought provoking and intelligent.
    There will always be those who claim exclusive rights to God thumping their bible as evidence. Its the physiology behind this mind set that tweaks my interest, although I’m only a amateur in this field I would guess that it revolves around security .The past and its adherence to rules would provide a no need for thought way of life. And then there's the ultimate security of an eternal heaven the carrot dangled by religion.
    When Darwin introduced his theory of evolution the Victorian churches were horrified they did their best to stamp it out. People could see the logic behind it and from that point onwards-church attendance dropped. About the same time Theosophy introduced evolution of the soul a concept not as wildly excepted but neither the less just as logical .Add to the mix education of the masses science, physiology, democracy and freedom of thought and we get to were we are today. Now it’s possibly to explore and study a myriad of belief s and ideas. I for one love it.
     
  14. Paris

    Paris Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2003
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    San Diego
    Intersting threads

    Hi Everyone,

    Well that was a lengthy read on my part and very interesting, and theory is a great way to do something with nothing. Problem is that no one knows the answers. People around the world are the same with the same hopes and fears, even those that are indigenous peoples.

    The everyday questions that we all worry about are: Where do we get our next meal? how do we survive the next day? How will we carry out our traditions? What can we teach our children? Why are others stronger than us?

    And the theological questions: Where did we come from? Why are we here? What happens when we die?

    We can come up with answers for the first set of questions, and we can theorize about the answers to the second set of questions.

    Alot of people and cultures have put alot of effort into the theorizing before us. I do not believe that there are any "definitive" answers to the second set of questions, but alot of what we can answer in the first set plays a huge part with the second set, especially "What can we teach our children?"

    I'm waiting for the day that I get to that place in the universe where I can ask all the questions I like and get all the answers. Like: Was it aliens that brought us to this Earth, Pyramids, etc..., Did Atlantis really exist, where do souls wait to be reborn, was it the Big-Bang or was it God, Who killed Kennedy, etc., etc., etc..

    But in my opinion (mind it is just my opinion) I don't think that such a place and time exists, and I only know that morality is in the eye of the beholder. I get more of a general impression that we all come back to the "fold". What that means, I really don't know but that seems to be the prevailing theme through many religions. (My own personal "picture" is alot of white light souls hanging out in a large white light "room" just "Being".

    Maybe its just a state of total fullfillment and happiness without the need to know the answers, but as a living human being that is inquisitive I would hate to think I can never learn all the answers.

    One of my questions that no one has a good answer too (again my opinion) If God is Love and Love is Light and we are Light, then how come there is so much hate and terror in this world. And why has it )hate and terror) been around for so long where no real headway has been made that the masses understand this God/Light/Love ideology instead its a handful of beings here and a handful there.

    I think that's why Revelations only has a finite number of those that will be saved. I've seen too much hatred in my lifetime to ever believe that everyone will reach Nirvana or any other sort of Heaven. Which leads to another question, How many lives do you have to live to get to that point? And from my understanding of the various religions there have been very few beings that have ever reached that state among us humans, all of them great prophets of the religions (though I don't believe all of them were great prophets myself after reading some of their words).

    So its a nice thread with lots of contraditions, lots of opinions, no answers but quite entertaining just the same.

    HUGS
    PAris
     
  15. Norway

    Norway Enjoyer

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2002
    Messages:
    0
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Milky Way
    To much pain and fear for the EGO to handle and it’s giving up?


    The ego is a prisoner of time, but as we come into the present moment we are released from our attachments and anxieties, freed from our past and our future and liberated from our ego. The present moment gives us perfect freedom from our “conditioned ego” – Rebirthing Made Easy – Colin.P.Sisson
    :)
     
  16. Artzab

    Artzab AS2

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2003
    Messages:
    0
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Canada
    I didn't know about the "40" term before. That's interesting. So, Noah could have sailed his ark for more than the literal meaning of "40 nights" and if the actual term that should be used is "many", then for all history knows, Noah could have taken three weeks, a couple months or a few years while he sailed, instead of literally 40 days and 40 nights. I must say I learn of a lot of different things I never heard about before.

    I think I understand the term "Son". In ancient times I can see it being used to the one who inherits because I think weren't the men way back in the past the ones who would "bring home the bread"? I think that's the term used that means bringing home money earned from working. It could mean something like the son had to take over his father's business or something like that once he got old enough. I hope I have understood the term correctly.

    When I think of "G" and how we are all "G" 's children, I wonder if that means that with us living on earth, could that mean that "G" intended us to "inherit" the earth? I think it's interesting to think about, if nothing else.
     
  17. Sandra

    Sandra Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2001
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    In bringing this back up to the top, I saw that Deborah didn't get a chance to come back and address the Festival of Easter.

    One aspect of the goddess from ancient times spread her name throughout the western world in different forms. In the old Hebrew religion, before Judaism started developing into its modern form, her name was Ashtoreth, and she was the consort of Yahweh. In the middle East this name would be gradually transformed into Ishtar, and in Europe, one of the names was Eostre ( the source for female-related terms such as estrogen )

    The primary festivals for celebrating the goddess throughout the western world occurred in the spring, to honor the return of fertility. The festival of Oestre was one of these, and incorporated within its rites the symbols of the goddess, including the hare and the egg.

    This festival was so important, centered at the Spring Equinox and the Equinox moon, that when Christianity absorbed the pagan festivals and this one was attached to the celebration of Jesus's death and resurrection this festival never underwent a name change , at least in some of the languages, primarily English.

    In countries that have concentrated more on the Christian aspects of the holiday time, Easter is known by some form of the Paschal term, which denotes the sacrifice of Jesus. But....they still keep the eggs! ;)

    This time of spring festival has kept such importance that eventually a number of major religions have focused a major holiday around this time; for example, a number of Buddhist communities now celebrate the Buddha's birthday at Easter time (my community, at least, used to celebrate it in June).

    Anyone who believes dogma shouldn't change should really take a look at the history of changes and transformations throughout the religions...

    Sandra
     
  18. ssake

    ssake Senior Registered

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 1999
    Messages:
    0
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Myrtle Beach. SC
    I personally think that reincarnation was taken for granted by Jesus and the immediate disciples, so it only came up as a topic of direct discussion when there was a fine point of karmic law. There are at least two instances of the disciples putting a karma-related question to Jesus (one being John 9:1).

    There is also a direct reference to reincarnation in the Gospel of Thomas, from the Nag Hamadi documents, albeit in parable form:

    "The kingdom is like a man who had a hidden treasure in his field without knowing it. And after he died, he left it to his son. The son did not know (about the treasure). He inherited the field and sold it. And the one who bought it went plowing and found the treasure. He began to lend money at interest to whomever he wished."

    (Gospel of Thomas, Nag Hammadi documents, passage #109, Thomas O. Lambdin translation)

    My interpretation:
    The hidden treasure is the true Self or Atman, which is essentially One with God. "Without knowing it" means that the man is not conscious of this Self. Inheriting and selling the field means, reincarnating, reinheriting the body and the physical world of experience. We have three incarnations represented here for purposes of illustration, but of course the actual process takes many more lifetimes. "Plowing" means directing consciousness inward, seeking within oneself. Finding the treasure means finding the Self, becoming consciously aware of the Self within. "Lending with interest" means teaching and spiritual work after attaining Realization.

    Steve S.
     
  19. SMurphy

    SMurphy Senior Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2004
    Messages:
    0
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Bermuda
    For the greatest Christian Teacher of all time, Origenes of Alexandria, reincarnation was the central theme of Christianity. At the center of his theology was the “Restoration of All Things”; the imperceivably slow restoration of all souls lost to Heaven in the Fall, including eventually Lucifer himself. From what we know today this process has taken billions of years and will take billions of years from today until it is complete.

    Origenes was declared a heretic by the Emperor Justinian in the 6th century and, in one of the greatest actions of genocide of all time; this belief was burned out of the heart of Christianity. Fortunately, we have access to a few of Origenes’ original works which gives us a glimpse of the basis for this early Christian requirement for reincarnation. It is pleasure to read his “sweet reasonableness” as he helps us to reveal the lost spiritual meaning behind the words of Jesus and the Prophets that have been lost to our materialistic generation.
     
  20. Majic

    Majic Senior Registered

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2001
    Messages:
    0
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Canada
    One thing that I find objective-able about quoting verses from scared books, especially the Bible, is that people feed the need to interpret it to fit their agenda. For example, Steve quoted this verse,

    "The kingdom is like a man who had a hidden treasure in his field without knowing it. And after he died, he left it to his son. The son did not know (about the treasure). He inherited the field and sold it. And the one who bought it went plowing and found the treasure. He began to lend money at interest to whomever he wished."

    and then he offers an interpretation of it. Maybe the literal meaning is the correct meaning. Maybe the translation of the original changed the original meaning. Maybe my attempt is the correct one - although I doubt it.

    Interpretation by me: The hidden treasure is a book that the father never read. He passed it on to his son, who didn't read it. And then it move on to the next generation and someone finally read it and learn about charging interest for money that was lent, and began the first bank.

    My point is that quoting verses from the Bible and adding translations to them doesn't contribute one little bit to any spiritual understanding. It only generates more dogma, and the creation of more branches of the original religion, muddying the waters of wisdom even more.
    Majic
     

Share This Page