Dogma Bites Man

Discussion in 'Reincarnation, Religion and Spirituality' started by Steve, Jun 15, 1999.

  1. kris0503

    kris0503 Senior Registered

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    Looking for meaning in all the wrong places

    If a person says this:
    to mean this:
    I would dismiss that person as someone lacking minimal level of intelligence to be taken seriously and not look for any meaning in his statements. This is beyond ridiculous.
     
  2. Kathleen J

    Kathleen J Senior Registered

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    Peter -
    I realize this is an old post to be replying to (finally), but I only just found this.

    Also remember that Hebrew letters also double for numbers. The letter Mem is used for the number 40, and means "water". Bearing this in mind, one can see how it might be very easy to assign the number 40 to the endless days and nights of rain, either through legend or mis-translation of the earliest texts.

    Kathleen
     
  3. Bluescorpion

    Bluescorpion Senior Registered

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    This is a seriously heavy thread to follow.

    Some very good points by many people. Both for and against.


    Its my thought that most people will interpret what they want to from any HOLY book !

    A close one to me is that after talking to many people from varied religions, they all agree that there is no mention of killing others. That has never stopped political or fanatical groups from doing so. Nor has it stopped adultery, lying, theft and a good handful of other " don't do's " that have been written for thousands of years.

    There are people who will always find a contradiction to anything they see, hear or find.

    Let people be people and have their voice and individuality !

    Mark
     
  4. pmahs

    pmahs Registered

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    Hi Deborah and all who read this thread. If Steve is still on this forum, I must tell him that the Christian-based churches in Georgia are still carrying the torch for the early church. The mere mention of any of these things brings immediate condemnation.

    I attend church with my husband (at his urging and against my preference), and I find myself wanting to scream at times. The people are wonderful, but totally brainwashed. Some of the scriptures they read as the "lessons" make absolutely no sense to anyone. I find myself feeling like a total hypocrit, and some people are beginning to notice, although they haven't said anything, that in the responsive readings I will recite some, but others I remain quiet. It's very hard to be a free thinker in a mind-controlled world.

    My husband, whom I love dearly, has even said "Don't ever tell anyone how crazy you are."

    Now you know why I'm so thrilled to find this forum. Thanks for listening.
     
  5. Deborah

    Deborah Executive Director

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    Hi pmahs --

    Steve is Steve Bowman - Carol Bowman's husband. Yes, he is still around - he is the owner of the forum. We are gald you are here. :)
     
  6. Deborah

    Deborah Executive Director

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    I hope new members get a chance to read the first post by Steve Bowman - especially if they have not read Carol's book.
     
  7. SMurphy

    SMurphy Senior Registered

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    Fighting Dogma: Look at what they do, not what they say...

    In my discussions this is the point that most modern people come to when discussing modern religions. They end up with only personal interpretations of the words. Try for a minute to forget the words, and look at the actions:


    In 543 AD the Emperor of Rome declared Origen of Alexandria a Heretic. Now why did the Emperor (not the church) declare the Origen (who died 300 years prior) a heretic?


    I find it most enlightening to read the words of the Emperor, which you can do in "The Anathematisms of the Emperor Justinian against Origen", and ask yourself what threat did the words of Origen pose to the Roman Empire?


    For me the answer is quite evident. The Roman Empire (like the Egyptian) was built on slavery. And the most efficient way to control a slave (or anyone) is to control his afterlife. What good is slave who believes in reincarnation? There is a scene in the movie Robin hood where the Bishop says to the king "you control their lives." and the king rebuts "but you control their souls". This scene demonstrates the earthy powers at play, and how the keepers of the word made they say what they wanted them to say in order to maintain their power-base. It shows why reincarnation was such a threat.


    You can see the level of the threat by looking at the first of the nine charges that Justinian brought against Origen: “Whoever says or thinks that human souls pre-existed, i.e., that they had previously been spirits and holy powers, but that, satiated with the vision of God, they had turned to evil, and in this way the divine love in them had died out (apyugeisas) and they had therefore become souls (yukas) and had been condemned to punishment in bodies, shall be anathema.” (see http://www.origenes2000.org/PDF/Origen_HereticorProphet.pdf for further information.)


    This is when reincarnation was erased from the history books and the Romans were very efficient at rewriting history. This is the source of the confusion in the words that we have left today from this source. Hope comes from the promise of Jesus to send the Spirit of Truth (John 14:17, John 15:26, John 16:13) to teach us and insure that The Word never dies. No matter how many books the world burns, the Spirit of Truth will return to teach them again.


    Jesus only taught for 3 years before the world killed Him. Origen taught and wrote for 50 years, and when you look at what he accomplished, you can see how he fulfilled the role of a "Spirit of Truth". But since the majority his work was destroyed by the Romans, others were sent to teach. The most recent Spirit of Truth, that I am aware of, taught for 35 years in Switzerland. Fortunately for us, this entire body of knowledge was recorded and printed. It is now being translated into English and becoming available at http://probeatrice.ch/index.php/en/


    Please read for yourself the references that I have posted and make up your own mind. One thing that most people forget when trying to convince others; its not our job. "Seek and ye shall find" is not just a promise but also a requirement. Each of us has to search for the Truth before we can find it. Enjoy the search!
     
  8. Deborah

    Deborah Executive Director

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    The first post in this thread holds very interesting information for those who are new and researching. Enjoy!
     
  9. Aboutface

    Aboutface New Member

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    Thanks for bumping, a very interesting read!
     
  10. Deborah

    Deborah Executive Director

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    You're welcome. Carol did a great job - and Steve writing this chapter in her book. :eek:)
     
  11. Native Son

    Native Son Member

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    No doubt that anyone championing reincarnation by writing about well researched literature does a great job. And Steve's contribution must be appreciated too, even though, if I may be allowed to offer a little criticism from my own personal, and not a professional perspective. On this thread I noted a few posts where logic and reason were made objects on which we are to rely on in forming our opinions on reality, and for overcoming religious dogma. However, those same ones seemed to lack understanding of their own logical "dogma", as logic can also be dogmatic, especially for those that have little understanding of the dialectical process needed to assess logic itself.

    Regarding the first post on the thread, Steve seems to disregard, as also those others, that if the Bible is truly the word of the Father and Creator, and meant for humans to receive and understand His word, there is no way in Hell that anyone of us, emperor or common pauper, can prevent that word from being communicated to us, just as it was initially meant. And one poster got close to this, when he cited that the Holy Spirit would be sent to explain everything. The only problem with that was that it's not the HS that had enlightened Origen, or any other Christian Confessor, or any of the other early church fathers. The Holy Spirit has yet to come, to explain everything, and reincarnation will be one of the things that will be explained.

    Now I also observed that two posters made a big deal of Plato's cave allegory, using it to make out the Christians who believe in a being, an old man with a beard, and separate from anyone of us, to be those very prisoners of the cave too afraid to be released of their shackles, and see that there is no one God, as we are all, together, what forms God. But I say that these two are totally ignorant of the cave allegory, and what was being presented by Socrates/Plato. Little they must know that reading further on, we are given that to be released from the cave, is in order to be taken to the realm of the unchanging intellectual realm of reality, where on the last step, the freed prisoner can finally catch a glimpse of the absolute Good, or as we may call Him, God.

    This entire allegory, I said, you may now append, dear Glaucon, to the
    previous argument; the prison-house is the world of sight, the light of the fire is
    the sun, and you will not misapprehend me if you interpret the journey upwards
    to be the ascent of the soul into the intellectual world according to my poor
    belief, which, at your desire, I have expressed whether rightly or wrongly God
    knows. But, whether true or false, my opinion is that in the world of knowledge
    the idea of good appears last of all, and is seen only with an effort; and, when
    seen, is also inferred to be the universal author of all things beautiful and right,
    parent of light and of the lord of light in this visible world, and the immediate
    source of reason and truth in the intellectual; and that this is the power upon
    which he who would act rationally, either in public or private life must have his
    eye fixed.
     

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