Dogma Bites Man

Discussion in 'Reincarnation, Religion and Spirituality' started by Steve, Jun 15, 1999.

  1. kris0503

    kris0503 Senior Registered

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    Looking for meaning in all the wrong places

    If a person says this:
    to mean this:
    I would dismiss that person as someone lacking minimal level of intelligence to be taken seriously and not look for any meaning in his statements. This is beyond ridiculous.
     
  2. Kathleen J

    Kathleen J Senior Registered

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    Peter -
    I realize this is an old post to be replying to (finally), but I only just found this.

    Also remember that Hebrew letters also double for numbers. The letter Mem is used for the number 40, and means "water". Bearing this in mind, one can see how it might be very easy to assign the number 40 to the endless days and nights of rain, either through legend or mis-translation of the earliest texts.

    Kathleen
     
  3. Bluescorpion

    Bluescorpion Senior Registered

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    This is a seriously heavy thread to follow.

    Some very good points by many people. Both for and against.


    Its my thought that most people will interpret what they want to from any HOLY book !

    A close one to me is that after talking to many people from varied religions, they all agree that there is no mention of killing others. That has never stopped political or fanatical groups from doing so. Nor has it stopped adultery, lying, theft and a good handful of other " don't do's " that have been written for thousands of years.

    There are people who will always find a contradiction to anything they see, hear or find.

    Let people be people and have their voice and individuality !

    Mark
     
  4. pmahs

    pmahs New Member

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    Hi Deborah and all who read this thread. If Steve is still on this forum, I must tell him that the Christian-based churches in Georgia are still carrying the torch for the early church. The mere mention of any of these things brings immediate condemnation.

    I attend church with my husband (at his urging and against my preference), and I find myself wanting to scream at times. The people are wonderful, but totally brainwashed. Some of the scriptures they read as the "lessons" make absolutely no sense to anyone. I find myself feeling like a total hypocrit, and some people are beginning to notice, although they haven't said anything, that in the responsive readings I will recite some, but others I remain quiet. It's very hard to be a free thinker in a mind-controlled world.

    My husband, whom I love dearly, has even said "Don't ever tell anyone how crazy you are."

    Now you know why I'm so thrilled to find this forum. Thanks for listening.
     
  5. Deborah

    Deborah Executive Director Staff Member

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    Hi pmahs --

    Steve is Steve Bowman - Carol Bowman's husband. Yes, he is still around - he is the owner of the forum. We are gald you are here. :)
     
  6. Deborah

    Deborah Executive Director Staff Member

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    I hope new members get a chance to read the first post by Steve Bowman - especially if they have not read Carol's book.
     
  7. SMurphy

    SMurphy Senior Registered

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    Fighting Dogma: Look at what they do, not what they say...

    In my discussions this is the point that most modern people come to when discussing modern religions. They end up with only personal interpretations of the words. Try for a minute to forget the words, and look at the actions:


    In 543 AD the Emperor of Rome declared Origen of Alexandria a Heretic. Now why did the Emperor (not the church) declare the Origen (who died 300 years prior) a heretic?


    I find it most enlightening to read the words of the Emperor, which you can do in "The Anathematisms of the Emperor Justinian against Origen", and ask yourself what threat did the words of Origen pose to the Roman Empire?


    For me the answer is quite evident. The Roman Empire (like the Egyptian) was built on slavery. And the most efficient way to control a slave (or anyone) is to control his afterlife. What good is slave who believes in reincarnation? There is a scene in the movie Robin hood where the Bishop says to the king "you control their lives." and the king rebuts "but you control their souls". This scene demonstrates the earthy powers at play, and how the keepers of the word made they say what they wanted them to say in order to maintain their power-base. It shows why reincarnation was such a threat.


    You can see the level of the threat by looking at the first of the nine charges that Justinian brought against Origen: “Whoever says or thinks that human souls pre-existed, i.e., that they had previously been spirits and holy powers, but that, satiated with the vision of God, they had turned to evil, and in this way the divine love in them had died out (apyugeisas) and they had therefore become souls (yukas) and had been condemned to punishment in bodies, shall be anathema.” (see http://www.origenes2000.org/PDF/Origen_HereticorProphet.pdf for further information.)


    This is when reincarnation was erased from the history books and the Romans were very efficient at rewriting history. This is the source of the confusion in the words that we have left today from this source. Hope comes from the promise of Jesus to send the Spirit of Truth (John 14:17, John 15:26, John 16:13) to teach us and insure that The Word never dies. No matter how many books the world burns, the Spirit of Truth will return to teach them again.


    Jesus only taught for 3 years before the world killed Him. Origen taught and wrote for 50 years, and when you look at what he accomplished, you can see how he fulfilled the role of a "Spirit of Truth". But since the majority his work was destroyed by the Romans, others were sent to teach. The most recent Spirit of Truth, that I am aware of, taught for 35 years in Switzerland. Fortunately for us, this entire body of knowledge was recorded and printed. It is now being translated into English and becoming available at http://probeatrice.ch/index.php/en/


    Please read for yourself the references that I have posted and make up your own mind. One thing that most people forget when trying to convince others; its not our job. "Seek and ye shall find" is not just a promise but also a requirement. Each of us has to search for the Truth before we can find it. Enjoy the search!
     
  8. Deborah

    Deborah Executive Director Staff Member

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    The first post in this thread holds very interesting information for those who are new and researching. Enjoy!
     
  9. Aboutface

    Aboutface New Member

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    Thanks for bumping, a very interesting read!
     
  10. Deborah

    Deborah Executive Director Staff Member

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    You're welcome. Carol did a great job - and Steve writing this chapter in her book. :eek:)
     
  11. Native Son

    Native Son Active Member

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    No doubt that anyone championing reincarnation by writing about well researched literature does a great job. And Steve's contribution must be appreciated too, even though, if I may be allowed to offer a little criticism from my own personal, and not a professional perspective. On this thread I noted a few posts where logic and reason were made objects on which we are to rely on in forming our opinions on reality, and for overcoming religious dogma. However, those same ones seemed to lack understanding of their own logical "dogma", as logic can also be dogmatic, especially for those that have little understanding of the dialectical process needed to assess logic itself.

    Regarding the first post on the thread, Steve seems to disregard, as also those others, that if the Bible is truly the word of the Father and Creator, and meant for humans to receive and understand His word, there is no way in Hell that anyone of us, emperor or common pauper, can prevent that word from being communicated to us, just as it was initially meant. And one poster got close to this, when he cited that the Holy Spirit would be sent to explain everything. The only problem with that was that it's not the HS that had enlightened Origen, or any other Christian Confessor, or any of the other early church fathers. The Holy Spirit has yet to come, to explain everything, and reincarnation will be one of the things that will be explained.

    Now I also observed that two posters made a big deal of Plato's cave allegory, using it to make out the Christians who believe in a being, an old man with a beard, and separate from anyone of us, to be those very prisoners of the cave too afraid to be released of their shackles, and see that there is no one God, as we are all, together, what forms God. But I say that these two are totally ignorant of the cave allegory, and what was being presented by Socrates/Plato. Little they must know that reading further on, we are given that to be released from the cave, is in order to be taken to the realm of the unchanging intellectual realm of reality, where on the last step, the freed prisoner can finally catch a glimpse of the absolute Good, or as we may call Him, God.

    This entire allegory, I said, you may now append, dear Glaucon, to the
    previous argument; the prison-house is the world of sight, the light of the fire is
    the sun, and you will not misapprehend me if you interpret the journey upwards
    to be the ascent of the soul into the intellectual world according to my poor
    belief, which, at your desire, I have expressed whether rightly or wrongly God
    knows. But, whether true or false, my opinion is that in the world of knowledge
    the idea of good appears last of all, and is seen only with an effort; and, when
    seen, is also inferred to be the universal author of all things beautiful and right,
    parent of light and of the lord of light in this visible world, and the immediate
    source of reason and truth in the intellectual; and that this is the power upon
    which he who would act rationally, either in public or private life must have his
    eye fixed.
     
  12. Deborah

    Deborah Executive Director Staff Member

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    An older thread but one that has an excerpt from Carol's book in the beginning and PeterV (whom I miss ......he was knowledgeable - a great resource) Here's one quote by him -
     
  13. RamaRaksha

    RamaRaksha New Member

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    "The kingdom of G-d is, in contrast to the Hindu Nirvana, an earthly concept, a just society. Olam habbah (the world to come) is a whole another chapter alltogether.
    Also, in contrast to the Hindu perceptions, material existence is good. Sin is misuse of the creation.
    While in Hinduism a person seeks to get himself a dwelling in the transcendental, in Judaism one seeks to make the world a dwelling for G-d."

    As a Hindu this was a What? Which religion is teaching Reincarnation? Coming back to this same life is what Hinduism teaches and which one says Only one life and then off we go where? Where is this Heaven? God's Kingdom? Amazing to see such topsy-turvy views of religious teachings. It is the total opposite - the word Namaste means "I greet the God within you" - God is here with us - Nirvana is a state of mind, it is not about running away to some magic land where the living is easy

    "material existence is good"??? Is that why Life is a sin and we must be saved? That we are all sinners and we must find the "right" God to be saved?

    Please don't take our ideas and pass it off as your own
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
  14. RamaRaksha

    RamaRaksha New Member

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    The stress is one following a person - which as the OT has made clear - makes sure that one stays within the religion and is condemned if one does not - and that was the problem with Reincarnation. As a Hindu, to me a follower of God Rama is a person who tells the Truth, walks the Truth and strives to do the right thing. Religion does not matter. Who is a follower of the Buddha? A person who is compassionate, strives for enlightenment - not necessarily one who calls himself a Buddhist. Any fool can call himself a Buddhist and I have met some - full of hate and anger, potty mouth and saying they are Buddhists. When I asked them what about one of Buddha's precepts - the Right Speech - they cleaned up their mouth for a while but in later posts they went back to their potty mouths

    The Christian and Islamic religions on the other hand, say that one is a follower of Christ only if he accepts Christ as his savior and one is rewarded by Allah only if one is Muslim. These ideas came from times when Kings ruled and demanded absolute obedience and loyalty. If you did not swear loyalty to the King, out you went - no King would allow a disloyal person to remain in his Kingdom

    For the former two faiths, the stress is on becoming a better person, Enlightenment, Knowledge whereas for the latter two it is more about getting the easy good life and X God will give it to us, but we must follow him and him only and assure him of our loyalty and must not follow anyone else otherwise he will get angry and won't give us the good life that we want. The operative word here is GIVE, for Hindus and Buddhists and operative word is EARN! Enlightenment is Earned, never Given.
     
  15. Tinkerman

    Tinkerman Administrator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Thank you for your thoughts RamaRaksha. Welcome to the forum, I look forward to reading more of your thoughts. It seems to me the principles of these religious institutions are all connected. And in a strange way I've come to know the "truths" in each of them... but these truths are mine alone, found along my journey. When asked my "religion" I have no defined group, instead I simply call myself a seeker... part Buddhist, part Christian, part Pagen etc etc etc. And I am quite comfortable with this. As stated many times throughout this thread the need for man to define God and harness power over people is obvious, and sad. The Great Creator within each of us is a powerful force of discovery, of curiosity, of good, and of compassion... this is the light in a world of darkness. Blessings to you... ~Tman
     
  16. RamaRaksha

    RamaRaksha New Member

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    There is a constant fight within me - the mind says there is no evidence for Gods and the Heavens, whereas the heart disagrees. How much is the heart's views dictated by the fear of Death? Religions have used this fear to promise an easy living in the sky - "all our dead loved ones will be there" - yet few ask about the living loved ones that we leave behind.

    What frustrates me is that we seem to have moved forward in so many areas of our life but when it comes to religion, we remain primitive and backward - that Master/Slave religions - "Master will give us the good life and so we must get down on our knees and swear loyalty to him and then he will be pleased and reward us or else!" - dominate the world and that is one sad statement
     
  17. Tinkerman

    Tinkerman Administrator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    RamaRaksha, the Great Unknown is planted within each of us. The "fight within you" is just that. I believe this innate curiosity is the tingling shadow of wisdom... and wisdom, for me, is knowledge sanctioned by the Creator. The fear of death is in some ways the opposite of wisdom, for by seeking wisdom fear of death dissipates into understanding. The vestiges of religious institutions will always hold people to their slavery, they feed the fear... the darkness. A simple truth for me is the concept of light and darkness, ie good and evil, positive and negative, perhaps yin and yang. Within each of us is this light, our free-will choice will dictate if it shines upon creation or not. ~Tman
     
  18. RamaRaksha

    RamaRaksha New Member

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    And where is this Creator? How come there is zero to nil evidence of him or her? Lack of evidence is actually a good thing in that it means that a Creator, if one exists, thinks and treats us as Adults, we have to make choices based on what we think is right and wrong and not be guided by a "higher power". The dominant religions treat people as children, as Slaves - down on our knees and bow to the King - "every knee shall bow" - not this knee, though. God is not my King, certainly not my Master

    I do not believe in other worlds - to me, THIS IS IT! This is the only world there is and that is why Reincarnation holds such appeal to me. I have no wish to run away to some magic lands in the sky - they all sound the same - the easy living forever - free food, drink and accommodation - we die and suddenly a Sugar Daddy being appears ready to cater to our comforts? - a total opposite to our world where even one's own mother won't let us sit around doing nothing.

    Plus i am excited about the future world to come - another 100 years we will surely conquer death - i guess that will put an end to belief in Heaven. The world depicted in the Star Wars movies will surely be here - maybe dominated by robots or evil empires but i will be glad to find out
     

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