"every man occupies just that position in society which he is qualified to occupy"

Discussion in 'Reincarnation, Religion and Spirituality' started by baro-san, May 14, 2017.

  1. baro-san

    baro-san Active Member

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    Quote from Edward C. Randall's 1917 book "The Dead Have Never Died":

    ... every man occupies just that position in society which he is qualified to occupy . That must be so, or the law of cause and effect would be a failure
    I found this quote thought provoking ... If we karmically pay for whatever we think, desire, do, it means that sometimes we have to have unhappy, difficult lives.

    Then, trying to better someone else's life, to even out people's conditions and opportunities ... Can it be accomplished? Is it a desirable endeavour? Do we try to interfere in something we don't understand, and in a way that is counterproductive to both the helper and the helpee?

    How does "love everybody" figure into this? Just love them, but let them carry their burdens?
     
  2. AlexD

    AlexD aka Shadow

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    There is a difference between the real world and the ideal world. In the real world a large percentage of people occupying important positions in society don't possess the qualities and requirements to be there in the first place, while there are a lot of people with potential that for different reasons cannot achieve their ideal place in society. So to me, the statement makes little sense at all, mainly because I don't rely on deduction but on induction. That, or the laws of cause and effect do not apply to the real world. Which, given the state of chaos we are currently in, could be plausible after all.

    I personally do not believe in karmic retribution. I believe in destiny, but in a more complex and somewhat more confusing way. In my view, things happen for a reason but it doesn't necessarily mean that I did anything to deserve them at all. God's ways can be more unfathomable than what we may think. Likewise, I've seen certain people never getting their "retribution" in a way that I could logically expect. So, to sum it up, not everything that happens in society is always well deserved, and not much of what I see daily is the result of some perfect mechanism of "justice". If someone is powerful and corrupted, there is no justice in this in my view, same if I see someone with many positive qualities but completely powerless, and this is the everyday norm. And even if I believed in retribution I wouldn't use it to justify the political and social asset of our world, if it is obviously flawed. In many past lives I made my choice to oppose the system, if I considered it wrong, I did what I deemed right above all. There is no reason, in my view, to accept a society in which people's rights are not respected and there are no equal opportunities allowing people to really get to the places in society that they deserve because of their "qualifications". This is what I think, I hope you won't take amiss what I just wrote. In my opinion there must always be hope. Without that, we are all lost.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2017
  3. baro-san

    baro-san Active Member

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    I'm interested more in opinions about the quote from Randall's book and its practical implications.
     
  4. KenJ

    KenJ Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    A couple of things came to mind when I first read your post, the first was the "Peter Principle" that looks at it differently - "A person rises to the point of their incompetence" (although I think he was talking about Managers). The second thing was that I once started a similar thread and the thought deeply offended a group of people who, in my opinion, live in a shallow "unreality".

    To address a question you might ask in this vein, does it help someone who is to experience Poverty if we eliminate Poverty? But, those kinds of things are of a scale that they would not occur rapidly or completely. And, a concept as large as Poverty would be too broad since there are plenty of impoverished wealthy and healthy people. I guess I am responding just to let you know that I hear your question and have examined the concept, but hesitate to respond since it offends some delicate folk who feel that those ideas violate their "safe spaces".
     
  5. baro-san

    baro-san Active Member

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    Thanks for your reply. If my invitation suffices, please express your opinion. You can add the disclaimer that you don't want to offend anybody. Maybe, if you still have the link to your old thread, you could post it here. I would be interested to read that discussion.

    I did several self-guided past life regressions. When I ask what is the lesson I was meant to learn in that life, I get a one word answer, that is striking by its power of synthesis of one's whole life experience. Excepting in the case of my current life, when I was already given the answer (maybe because I already went through the assigned lesson), I get an answer only after passing on from that life (before that moment of the regression, I get no answer when I inquire). The kind of lessons I had to learn where never of the "poverty" kind, which is a relative and somehow external characterization but more of the more internal kind: simplicity, duty, solitary duty (one of the exceptions to one word answers), mission, stoicism, resolution, persistence, sacrifice, love, power, feminine (last four in female incarnations), survival, suffering, humility, ... I assume that when I didn't receive an answer at all, that particular life didn't accomplish its goal. Sad ...

    It is also true that all these lesson are subjective: we might think that somebody should be happy with the life they have, but they may not feel so; sometimes we think "only if I had that", "only if that happened" I would be happy, then when that wish is granted we are neither happy nor satisfied.

    When I read that quote, I was thinking: not letting somebody learn his "suffering" lesson, and forcing him to have to do it again, in another life, seems a bad and selfish thing. If I knew that to be the case, I couldn't in good conscience sabotage that person's life lesson. On the other hand, how do I know if I am selfish helping, or if I am selfish not helping?

    At a young age I was given this advice, I still consider a great one: "Do always what YOU think is right, and be sure that life will reward you as you deserve!" This has corollaries like: "If life seems to treat you badly, probably you did something that wasn't right. Find out what, and change it!", "Listen to others' opinion and advice, but decide for yourself! Each person is different.", and such.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2017
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  6. baro-san

    baro-san Active Member

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    Peter's Principle:
    Quote: In any hierarchy, each individual rises to his own level of incompetence, and then remains there.

    [​IMG]

    Research
    Alessandro Pluchino, Andrea Rapisarda, and Cesare Garofalo used an agent-based modelling approach to simulate the promotion of employees in a system where the Peter principle is assumed to be true. They found that the best way to improve efficiency in an enterprise is to promote people randomly, or to shortlist the best and the worst performer in a given group, from which the person to be promoted is then selected randomly. For this work, they won the 2010 edition of the parody Ig Nobel Prize in management science.

    Comparable texts
    José Ortega y Gasset suggested that: "All public employees should be demoted to their immediately lower level, as they have been promoted until turning incompetent". Ortega died in 1955, about 14 years before Peter published The Peter Principle.
     
  7. KenJ

    KenJ Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    It got "political" and I asked that the thread be deleted. Two examples of what you addressed were the Australian "stolen" generation and a local (to me) occurrence where a group of people got together and funded a playground and equipment while another group demanded that some of the equipment be removed since some physically-challenged kids might be offended or somehow damaged by not being able to use them - like not being able to use the slide because of their being wheelchair-bound.
     
  8. AlexD

    AlexD aka Shadow

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    In my own personal view, there's not really a way that I can sabotage a person's learning process, because his or her life is already predetermined from the beginning. There is a destiny which was already decided at the point of reincarnation -if not long before-, but in my view it transcends the common idea of karmic retribution, and it's not really a matter of strictly deserving anything but something more complex and obscure, but still aimed at some ultimate goal. Many times I had the impression of having already seen all the events of my life before even being born, and for the sake of this 'plan' I forgot about that after being reborn. But again, this is my experience and my own humble opinion. If there is a moral rule that I wish to follow, it's do what thou wilt... specifically, do what I think is right, even if others may not agree. If I had to worry about altering other people's destinies, which is a paradox in itself since even my own interactions with them were predetermined, I wouldn't be able to accomplish my own destiny at all. And this matters both in terms of making one's life better, or worse.

    I had to experience for myself that doing what I think is right doesn't always bring good consequences in a short time. I was arrested for defending my own ideas once, killed and then I returned and did it all again, getting myself killed again eventually. And even after that, it still took several years for my country to get closer to a democracy. But politics aside, because this is a matter of life choices more than just politics, I was satisfied with what I did until the end. This is what mattered the most to me, that even if it brought me no good in the beginning, my actions still left their trace in history, no matter how small. I can look back at my past, for the little that I can remember now, and be satisfied with my work. Perhaps I'm just stubborn, but this is who I am.
     
  9. baro-san

    baro-san Active Member

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    Maybe the fact that you had to repeat that experience, and that it ended the same way, shows that you didn't learn what you were meant to learn. Your conclusion about being stubborn might be right, and maybe that's something you have to work on.

    In my case, I try to do what I judge and feel to be right, but I'm also paying attention to how the Universe pays me back, keeping an open mind that I might be wrong, and need to adjust.
     
  10. AlexD

    AlexD aka Shadow

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    Maybe. Maybe I might have survived but felt miserable for the rest of my life, or I might have died young anyway because I was simply supposed to. I did many mistakes in my existence (even recently and I do realize it), so it's not like I think I am flawless, just saying: I pay attention to the consequences of my actions. In that case, if doing what I did in those occasions was wrong, the Universe should have tried harder to make me change my mind. I do see the reasons behind my deaths... everything has its price, and that was a price that I was prepared to pay. Sometimes we can bend to the circumstances like reeds bend to the wind, other times this is simply impossible.
     

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