Explain like I'm 5: the whole birthmark correlation

Discussion in 'Reincarnation Questions' started by Jack E, Aug 18, 2019.

  1. Jack E

    Jack E Senior Member

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    Gonna try to put this as uncontroversially as possible, lol. In all the things I've read about CORT's/PLM's, one of the main things I've seen come up as supporting evidence is the presence of birthmarks or defects that correspond to injuries sustained in the previous life, especially mortal wounds. This seems slightly more common in Eastern than Western cases, but don't quote me on that, I'm really not sure. Regardless, however, it does seem to be legitimately frequent, often including developmental defects that seem impossible or "moles where you never find moles", to paraphrase Stevenson. I've read the case data and the correlation is very hard to dispute, yet I cannot seem to wrap my mind around how this could work in the first place. Note that while I've read almost all of Stevenson's books, I haven't gotten to Reincarnation and Biology, because my library didn't have it last I checked, so if Ian gives a really good answer there, please quote it for me. I think that if we had evidence indicating that psychological factors have an impact on fetal development, then this would be very easy to account for, as the PLM's are likely present very early in development. However, we have no such evidence, and all indications seem to be that the only factors are genetic and environmental (e.g. maternal drug use). So how can having PLM's possibly result in developmental oddities aligning with past-life injuries? Where do reincarnation and biology truly intersect? Please point me toward any data that provides an opening for this to be scientifically possible.
     
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  2. Jaimie

    Jaimie Senior Member

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    hi, well the theory or belief is that the spirit creates/mold the body that it is in. But I don't know how to prove that with fancy words to make it more believable, besides a 5 year old would not understand that ; ) . I wish you all the luck with your research, I really do, I hope that science can prove reincarnation one day, for sure, but I don't how it would go about doing that, when will there be proof enough ? There will always be skeptics and non believers. Of course anyone is entitled to their own belief. We are all on our own journey. I always thought it would be impossible for me to prove that I have been who I think I have been in a past life considering anyone can say that I first found the evidence and then made up my story after it. Even if her loved ones would say they were true and I was reminding them of her it is still not evidence enough to say I was ever her, right? I mean, one can just go on and on about this. For me, it is that I can only prove it to myself and that is important in itself because I started out as a non believer and was totally unfamiliar with the concept.
    /Jaimie
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
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  3. Speedwell

    Speedwell Senior Registered

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    That would be the proper scientific way to proceed. First make some observations, then construct a hypothesis. (observations- evidence, hypothesis - story). The last stage is to try to find some data or experiment to disprove the hypothesis. Science is not about proof, but about making progressively better hypotheses to explain the evidence.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
  4. Jack E

    Jack E Senior Member

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    Speedwell's right. Here's my answer to the "there will always be skeptics" line of argument: the burden of proof on science with respect to reincarnation is no more than for, say, evolution. The goal of science is never to prove something beyond a shadow of a doubt; rather, it is to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, or in some cases where the primary sources are just too far gone, evolution being one of them, the only objective is simply "to craft the theory that explains the observed phenomena in the most comprehensive way and provides the most consistency with what we already know". Given that we can't use machines to directly observe the afterlife, just as we can't use them to directly observe organisms evolving, these two scenarios both fit the latter bill. There are still people who are skeptical about evolution, lots of them, but that doesn't mean it hasn't become an established scientific theory. The same will end up being the case for reincarnation in the long run; haters gonna hate, but they won't be taken seriously anymore because reincarnation provides the only coherent and consistent explanation for the existence of children born with PLM's. And it's their loss, knowledge is power.

    As for the topic question, I'm aware that no one really has a clean guess as to the biological cause of PLM birthmarks at this stage in the research, so I'm pretty much looking to be pointed in the direction of findings that open up a window for a possible explanation. Also, for those who don't know, "explain like I'm 5" is a turn of phrase originating from Reddit, basically meaning "explain it as simply and unconfusingly as possible". Something which has often been tough to elicit here...
     
  5. John Tat

    John Tat Senior Registered

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    I have always been a skeptic of this theory about moles and birth marks
    There is no reason I can see why it would happen My experiences tell me if there are no reasons for something about all of these things then it's not true
    Reincarnation is a different thing If you think about it we are surrounded by forms of reincarnation I
    for example we have a beautiful flower in our garden as it grows it produces a flower a beautiful flower It blooms and is radiant as it matures As time goes by the flower begins to get old it looses some of its beauty In the end it withers and dies We take the dead flower and put it in the trash Then we go back and dig up the bulb it left behind We take the bulb inside and a year or two later we take the bulb and plant it in the ground That bulb grows a flower the same species and many times the same color as the dead flower The flower has for all intent and purpose reincarnated The same can be said for many things We are surrounded by many forms of reincarnation
     
  6. KenJ

    KenJ Assistant Archivist and Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Nice analogy John! I like this thread, could we join it with or other posts Jack?
    I'm going to use this thread to start moving our posts to because I want to address something already.
     
  7. John Tat

    John Tat Senior Registered

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    Thanks Ken I have posted this analogy a couple of times over the years... If my memory serves me right it was part of the first post I made on the forum.. Deep down inside me it feels this is very significant..something like... our connections to nature are strong and meaningful and reincarnation is a part of that connections..inside me it makes complete sense... if the flowers and trees go through a form of reincarnation then we also do.. People of science may well say that is ridiculous there are no connections at all.. two very different process's ...which leads me to the following..I believe the thing with Jack E is... it appears to me he does not have the essential abilities needed to understand what is going on There is his science which appears he is very well equipped in many ways to undertake scientific research..but in my opinion he lacks the abilities to have the proper understandings to begin to understand ... That is my opinion but I could be very wrong

    All The Best
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
  8. landsend

    landsend Senior Registered

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  9. Spirit Sword

    Spirit Sword Senior Member

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    The best explanation I have seen, both for physical defects and unexplained ailments that correlate to past life injuries, is not exactly scientific, though it is all that I have.

    Basically, it is similar to karma and emotional trauma sustained in past lives: the soul holds onto the energy of an event even after the lifetime has ended. Then event's energy is stored in a similar location on the new body and it influences bodily processes to manifest the energy in different ways, depending on the event type. A bullet wound might become a birthmark while a drowning incident might make the body more likely to activate a gene that causes bad asthma. Similarly, odd ailments that cannot be explained by the medical community, such as pains that have no real cause or effect, are often manifestations of past life events. Sometimes defects and ailments caused by past life events can decrease in severity or disappear entirely if the cause is acknowledged and processed by the individual in question.

    I was incredibly skeptical about this whole business as well, and while I doubt every small mark and defect traces back to a past life, I have been forced to believe that some do. For many years, I would occasionally get strange ghost pains in my lower torso. No one could explain why, but there would be a sudden, intense pain focused in a point on the left, then working over to the right in a line. After a few minutes, it would disappear. Then I did a past life regression session and relived a memory where I was a samurai who had to slit his own belly in a lost battle. The pain never came back after that. Eventually, I came across a book which explained this concept, and it seemed to make sense. I was holding onto energy in that area and by reliving the memory I was able to let go of the event and the energy it carried, ending its strange effects.

    I understand this sounds unscientific and almost mystical. Unfortunately, this comes with the territory. I hope that this was helpful and I wish you luck in your scientific endeavors!
     
  10. Jack E

    Jack E Senior Member

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    As I hinted at in the OP, I can almost picture something psychosomatic like this being the cause. Basically, if we could get to the point where we know that an unborn child's thoughts and mental states can affect its physical development, the PLM connection would immediately follow from that. Given that PLM kids often tend to view the past and present lives as an unbroken continuity, it's possible that the newly reincarnated soul could simply still think it is injured, and that would cause the same injury to reemerge on the body. We currently have no evidence that this effect is possible. However - and this is crucial - we also have utterly zero information on what the mental life of an unborn child even consists of, full stop. And even with our current neuroimaging tech, I don't have a clue how we would be able to investigate that, which is probably why science has never really asked the question at all. So this is a possible solution, but any validation of it is decades up the road, probably after reincarnation itself has already taken hold in science. Given that there isn't a lot to think about before birth in a normal circumstance, it's even possible that psychosomatic influences can affect fetal development if and only if PLM's are present, since they're likely the strongest thoughts anyone's capable of having at that time. Standard Mendelian genetics would apply in all other instances.

    My take on landsend's point regarding gender identity follows a similar course. The newly reincarnated soul is very used to being the gender it was in its first life, so if it reincarnates into a body of the opposite gender the second time, it very well may lead to hormonal development that more follows the pattern of the original gender, leading to more opposite-gender tendencies and characteristics, despite having the biology of the other gender. The tendency for the child and previous personality to be the same gender (about ~90-95%) may be based on direct personal choice in the afterlife, or it could also be due to an even stronger application of the above. Our theory is that mental states may affect gene expression in fetal development, so if the soul incarnates early enough in the gestation period, and still thinks it is the original gender, it may actually make itself that gender entirely, rather than just taking on some of its traits while remaining biologically the other. If this is true, then the latter case (gender dysphoria) would actually be the result of the desired process of biologically becoming the original gender failing to fully take hold. Now we just need to explain all the gender confusion out there that doesn't have anything to do with PLM's...
     
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  11. John Tat

    John Tat Senior Registered

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    I'm tired of all of this talk Our spiritual selves or souls whichever you call it was not shot was not injured is not scared in any way the spiritual suffers no physical injury yet there is endless talk about how these physical scares tattoos and all the rest of the BS is passed on to the next physical entity by the spiritual IT MAKES NO SENSE
     
  12. tanker

    tanker Senior Registered

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    John, I'd be interested to know whereabouts the evidence is for your claims about our spiritual selves or souls. Is what you have written your opinion, or do you have some factual basis for your beliefs that you can show us?
     
  13. Spirit Sword

    Spirit Sword Senior Member

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    @John Tat I do not believe that the soul or the higher self or whatever you wish to call it is the recipient of these injuries in such theories, merely that it takes the energy with it and the injury reappears when we are in a less perfect human state. The soul is not scarred, but it has a likelihood of scarring when incarnated? That being said, most of this is above my pay grade.
     
  14. Totoro

    Totoro Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    My personal theory is that it's encoded in our "energy patterns" somehow.. we exist as energy and that energy contains information about us, our body and so on. To me, it's like how a cassette tape, when new, sounds great, but over time the tape gets stretched out, some of the magnetic coating loses it's magnetism and this all ends up as pops, hiss and other sounds that we can hear.
     
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  15. Jack E

    Jack E Senior Member

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    My hypotheses are grounded in the assumption that human psychology works the same in death as in life, and also abetted by the observation that a lot of PLM kids seem to have some confusion between events from the past and current lives, almost as if they not only perceive the two as continuous, but are barely able to tell the difference. So when they're just newly reincarnated, before birth, many of them could very well be aware of the injury but still think they are alive in the first life, causing them to believe they didn't die of their injuries and thus are still injured. Just a guess, but it aligns exactly with how a confused person who has no idea they're dead would think irl.

    I'm not claiming that souls themselves can be damaged; my hypothesis on that matter is that a soul is a fundamental particle, equal in status to a quark or electron, and thus is not made of parts that can be damaged. Just as fundamental particles of matter have their own properties and forces, thought, perception, and subjectivity are inherent properties of souls, and the brain is the machinery a soul uses to allow its natural abilities to exist in physical dimensions.
     
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  16. KenJ

    KenJ Assistant Archivist and Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Who knows what is carried away in the 21 grams of the 1907 by Duncan MacDougall experiment!
     
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  17. KenJ

    KenJ Assistant Archivist and Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I'm hesitant to post more here even though the sub-forum is about science and studies/experiments and design until I get admin approval or have an open PM conversation. I'm on a roll right now and have more energy and intent to "help" Jack than he probably wants. I feel that he is worth my interest for some reason.
     
  18. tanker

    tanker Senior Registered

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    Jack, I'm pleased to read that, as it makes me feel less worried about myself! Certainly I perceive it all as continuous, helped I guess by the fact that I came back almost straight away, into the same war, albeit in a totally different context. I talk about myself as a returning war veteran, as that's just how it feels. In the same way as an old vet will tell his tales to any who want to listen, that's all I'm doing.

    I try not to confuse the two to the point where I can't tell the difference, but have to admit that there are a few odd occasions it happens, and that's very disturbing. It's just reassuring to hear that I'm not alone in this.

    Because I have no sense of anything in between these lives, it seems quite logical to me to see it as a continuation, even though I remind myself that it isn't.

    And just as a lot of war vets find it very hard, after years of fighting, to return to normal society, I feel that too. I don't think I've ever adjusted, and probably at this late stage never will.
     
  19. tanker

    tanker Senior Registered

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    Go for it, Ken! It all makes interesting reading, even if I don't really understand what you're saying.
     
  20. KenJ

    KenJ Assistant Archivist and Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Thanks tanker, a quick view of my long-ago research and statistical knowledge lose may make what I've said easier to understand may be in order.

    A null hypothesis is the reverse form of the problem test, it is an attempt to prove to "prove" that the assumption is NOT true, in other words, to prove that eye-movement was NOT associated with sensory words spoken in the subjects utterances in the current sentence.

    The p-scores (p.<00001) is simple short-hand for ["the probability" is less than 1 in 100,000 chance of it Not being associated]. Pretty straight-forward, just unfamiliar to most folk.
     

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