Getting it Right

Discussion in 'Reincarnation Questions' started by fiziwig, Dec 21, 2002.

  1. fiziwig

    fiziwig moderator emeritus

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    We search back into our past to find out who we are now, how we got where we are, and what path we are travelling. All these past lives are a part of who we are today, and lead us to who we are becoming. Because of this it is important, very important that we get it right.

    It would be far better for us to not recall a certain past life than to recall something that is not true. To not recall a life means only that we are missing piece of the puzzle. To fool ourselves or to think that we recall something that is not true not only distorts the understanding of our past, it distorts our picture of who we are now, and diverts us from the path to who we are to become.

    To not know, only slows us down.
    to believe a lie stops us cold in our tracks and sends us down a false trail entirely.
     
  2. Wicker

    Wicker Senior Registered

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    I find your thoughts interesting Fiziwig. I agree that it is far worse to believe a falsehood and to proceed on that belief than to move forward unknowingly. Perhaps some of us may think that the task before us is to know what "IS"---a task that, from the vantage point of material existence, we can never satisfactorily complete. Man is inhibited in his ability to perceive complete reality by his very physical nature.

    Prior to reading this forum, I had rather stong convictions that reincarnation was a reality. I had read many anecdotes and reports that seemed to substantiate reincarnation. This forum, however has provided more insight for me into how these anectdotes and reports may come about and sadly I now am persuaded to reconsider the validity of those reports.

    Far too many people, for whatever reasons, proclaim what they think is a memory of a past life but what seems to me to be a contrived fantasy, constructed either by the conscious mind or the unconscious mind. There is usually nothing to substantiate the fantasy in most of the accounts. The unconscious mind can make up a good story. Whether these stories are true or not---who can say?

    That is not to say that I no longer believe that the theory of reincarnation is not worth considering. I do continue to think that reincarnation is a theory that makes sense out of a lot of happenings in life that can not be explained by other ready means. But perhaps there are other ways to validate the theory of reincarnation in addition to, or rather than, personal "rememberings" of us all.

    And that, those other ways, should be our search! - Wicker
     
  3. kris0503

    kris0503 Senior Registered

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    "Tain't not knowing much the problem as knowing much that ain't so."

    This was a line on one of my professor's classroom black board back in the old days when I went to college. I have reproduced it from recall and the words may not be exactly as he had them. His were better.
     
  4. fiziwig

    fiziwig moderator emeritus

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    Wicker,

    Odd you should mention that. I have, of course, studied Dr. Stevenson's cases and those of Dr. Banerjee as well. These are solid cases based on rational investigation, and are quite convincing.

    But frankly (no offense to other members of the group) I read some incredibly ridiculous nonsense on these message boards that makes even me, a firm believer in reincarnation, feel like I need to back away from the subject and distance myself from the lunatic fringe. Some of the posts make the whole concept of reincarnation sound like utter nonsense! At times I have to go away from these boards for a while and pursue the rational writers on the subject just so I can feel good about believing in it again.

    It's a rotten shame, really, that so many credulous and uncritical "true believers" can taint the whole field to the point where nobody reputable wants to be associated with it. I don't blame them for snickering at our field. It's tough to be taken seriously when you are seen in the company of credulous fantasy mongers.
     
  5. Jerry Johnson

    Jerry Johnson Senior Registered

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    Fiziwig,

    Is knowing a specific life provable without wrecking the current life? If the unconscious self fantasizes life situations as a cannibal in the Amazon in 1022 how do you verify it? Ok, easier one, a butcher born in Elbing, East Prussia in 1859? You muck around old church records etc. Nothing is provable except perhaps the childhood thing. Even the childhood reincarnations are proof only to the believer.

    Ok, someone like me with a significant past life or few. Who the devil needs it? The whole concept amounts to my sentiments about my Basset Hound in your thread "Revelation".

    I thought I would give this Forum a run to see if anything could be developed from the interchange of experiences.

    In the end, reincarnation is just another religion. A substitute for the more organized versions. This is a shame because reincarnation is more certainly a reality than much of theoretical physics. If so, it would be the only religion based on a natural fact. I ignore the idea of a spirit or soul because reincarnation would "Prove" both concepts.

    So the Syndrome of the million Cleopatra's will probably win out. There are 2000 plus registered people contributing here.We have Grant, Alexander, Mozart, RFK,Bonnie Parker,Amelia Earheart, a number of kings and others. It is rather disproportionate at first blush. The average peasant probably stays a peasant for many lives or forever. Some rise to be of greater stature. Would those who are of greater stature in this life be computer literate and flock to such a site as this?

    My story about Grant is so massively complete a full book should be convincing. Not so, it would only convince the convinced.
    A waste of time, except for one self, assuming that one self could benefit from the knowlege.

    Besides what is a fantasy?? One could argue that material science is a very great fantasy. Self delusion of the worst sort, if reincarnation is factual? The powerful scientific Mogul would be doing far greater damage to society than one who fantasizes himself to once have been known as Grant.


    The accuser of people understanding past lives being fantasy is doing so from the underpinnings of his own even greater fantasy. If we are right, he is decidely more harmfully wrong.
     
  6. fiziwig

    fiziwig moderator emeritus

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    Jerry,

    I suppose in the end there are three distinctly different reasons why people become interested in reincarnation. One is for the very personal reason of finding one's own past and learning something personal from that to help then along in their own journey. The second is to find something to brag about, and the last is from a need to know more about the ultimate nature of how things work in general.

    Certainly a lot of famous people have died, and if there is anything to reincarnation, they have been reborn. There can be no doubt in my mind that the souls which were Mozart, Alexander the Great and JFK are alive and kicking today. But my take on that fact is: so what? That is an irrelevant side effect of the fact that almost everybody reincarnates.

    I couldn't care less who I was, or who Mozart is now. Those are small questions, in the same league with questions like "who is my buthcer having an affair with?". These are the questions that sell supermarket tabloids and gossip magazines to all those who are intersted in such trifling things.

    The questions I'm interested in are the big questions. What is the grand design behind all these comings and goings? What is the course a soul must follow to reach its ultimate destiny? What, indeed, is that ultimate destiny?

    So in a sense we have those who are here to improve themselves, those who are here to gossip about the little things and those who are here to ponder the great mysteries. It's like a big party where the group in that corner is discussing the dreadful dress Liz Taylor wore at the 1985 Academy Awards broadcast and the group in the middle of the room is discussing how to eat a healthier diet and the group in this corner is discussing whether Kant's categorical imperative is a sound basis for making ethical choices.

    I suppose that because I come here to ponder the larger issues I tend to become impatient with those who are here to gossip and or brag about their famous or infamous past personalities. And yet I feel a strong sense of connection with those who are here to discover things that will help them along in their journey. We are all in this together and I cannot help but feel connected to others, and to feel compassion for their predicaments. I certainly wish them well on their quest.

    But dwelling on the past is not what our journey should be about. I have friends who, like me, are 50 to 60 years old yet who still, given half a chance, will recount for you the glories of their high school football career. They live in the past, and consequently, make no progress toward the future.

    If I suddenly discovered irrefutable proof that I had been Leonardo DaVinci I would do my very best to forget that I had ever discovered that, because beyond giving me insight into my own present life artistic and technical interests, dwelling on it would do nothing but hold me back. I don't want to be one of those pathetic 60-year guys who substitute living in the memory of their 12th grade glory days for living in the present.

    Especially since half the stories about their glory days are pure fabrication.
     
  7. Wicker

    Wicker Senior Registered

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    The absence I feel in this forum is the lack of accounts of past lives of people less well known to western culture. Where are the leaders and celebrities of ancient China, of Spain, Africa, India, Australia, and other continents, countries and cultures? Surely there were holocosts other than the German holocost and World War II? Where are the leaders and victims of the multitude of other atrocities and invasions that have occurred over time. Where are the accounts of lives of billions of obscure people who have lived on earth for the last 10,000 years?

    Perhaps people of a certain culture continue to reincarnate in that culture so maybe that explains why so many people on this forum report past lives as people known only in western culture. But, why are the notorious people so vocal, so willing and able to reappear as a life memory. Maybe it is their ego and arrogance that drove them to excel in a past life that propels them to manifest as a memory in a current life. I don't know.

    As a life-long student of psychology of humans, I believe there may be more facil explanations of the origin of grandiose so-called past life memories.

    I don't want to discount the so-called past life memories of people of this forum. Some or all of them may be true. I myself have inklings and flashes of images of people living their lives in times past. I too have certain nebulous feelings of attachment to certain past lifestyles. None of them are about well known people that I can tell however. From time to time I have thought that they might concern past lives of mine but, I cannot accept these phantasma as fact based upon just a passing thought or image in my mind. I just can't. I know that my mind is creative and I do not trust the motives of my subconscious.

    I hate to be repetitive of my comments in another thread but for me, in addition to the work done by Ian Stevenson, I am enamored by the account of the life of Pearl Curran and her spirit author, Patience Worth. Patience was an obscure person, albeit of western culture, but the material evidence produced in this case, taken in total, is facinatingly perplexing---an enigma if you will. There seems to be no easy explanation how Patience Worth and/or Pearl Curran could know the detailed obscure facts of life in times past, without seriously considering that Pearl Curran/Patience Worth actually lived in the times she wrote about. This case might be more easily dismissed if it were not for the extraordinary quality of the written material produced by the Patience Worth entity. Patience was no second rate author. She comes close to equaling the quality found in Shakespeare.

    I don't want to ramble here but I certainly appreciate the comments made by Jerry and Fiziwig. I think that one must be a true skeptic in these matters and not be too quick to accept as truth anything conjured up by the human mind without something more than feelings and beliefs to substantiate it. - Wicker
     
  8. kris0503

    kris0503 Senior Registered

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    Jerry, could you please explain this statement. I am firm believer in reincarnation. It is not important how my belief in reincarnation came about. But to provide the context, I was born and grew up in a society that believes in reincarnation. My belief was emphatically reinforced by the saga of my daughter when she was 2 years and 3 months old. To me reincarnation is a fact of life. I detest religion. Why does reincarnation have to be religion?

    As I see it, one of the purposes of this forum is to disseminate the knowledge of reincarnation to masses who in the West generally don't believe in it. That is a worthwhile purpose. Accounts of "side effects" serve that purpose. I don't have any recollection of my past lives, but I enjoy reading about those who do, be they famous or infamous or nonfamous past lives. Perhaps some here like to "brag about" their past life experiences. So what? There is no need for others to envy them. After reading the accounts of Alexander, Mozzart, RFK, Jim Morrison, , to mention a few, it is hard to not notice that they too are interested in "big" questions even if their approach to big questions is different from yours.

    I think that people tend to reincarnate in familiar surroundings, i.e. in the same cultural setting as in their previous life. I am from India. A reccuring dream suggests to me that I may have lived in early 19th century England. If true, I believe I made the "move" to India not in the process of reincarnating, but probably while in human body, perhaps in the employ of East India Company or the Raj. I guess I learned to like my new setting and decided to stick around for a while.
     
  9. Jerry Johnson

    Jerry Johnson Senior Registered

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    Lovely posts everyone. I feel the same way as you Fiziwig. Who cares.

    I did think a very a large group of historic persons could prove reincarnation popularly. If such an understanding could take hold it just might provide a better future framework for the triumph of personal spirituality.It was most naieve of me. My own thing, would center about the West Pont Class of 1843. Together then, together now.


    I really could care less what the mainstream western intellectuals or religious leaders think. I believe their tenure has run out. Their own bad ideas are coming home to roost. In the coming civilizational clash and population implosion Western Civilization will expire. The remnants will rebuild along survivalist lines. That has been my main personal area of inquiry for many years.

    As of today anyway, the Civilizational War seems imminent. The Western Powers are not in charge of this decision, it's terrorist challenger's are. When one leader dies, two more will take the dead leaders place.


    Kris, most people believing in reincarnation attach dogma's purloined from older religious idea's to their understandings. This is why I used the term "secular reincarnation". I also tossed in the population explosion problem a number of times for the express reason of trying to show there must be no order to reincarnational decisions on a macro governance scale. I am reminded of Albert Brook's comedy " Defending Your Life". A lot of rules and regulations there, nothing here.
    Michael Newton's work demonstrates the same highly developed governance. Bluntly, the ruination of Earth was the deliberate decision of reincarnating souls. It could also be that we are more dumb in the "dead state" than the "physically alive state".

    Reincarnation, if it be factual, is central to explaining the entire mess the world is in. Obviously, I think reincarnation to a factual process.

    Secular Reincarnation is the conclusion that you are born, live, die and are reborn. Nothing else. Certainly the concept is too stark. We need to flush Jesus, Siddartha, Muhammad and Moses and others to gain new insights. These thinkers are hopelessly encrusted with the junk Fiziwig somewhat alludes to.

    Humans on Earth cannot go on much longer without a total new synthesis of relevant concepts. This can only be accomplished after the population implosion.
    Kevin Kostner's "Postman" was a brilliant look at the future!


    I am a very dark thinker like Malthus. Oddly, just like Malthus, I am a very happy go lucky type.
     
  10. JoeKay

    JoeKay Senior Registered

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    Why is reincarnation a religion?

    Because we ARE God - all of us. God consists of the collective, interconnected psyche of the sum total of all of us. The mistake organized religions make is that most of them reduce God to 'just another guy - only with miraculous powers'. And no matter how they say it, it always comes out that way. Prayer, to me, consists of quietly finding a connection with the origin of our spirit. And the only thing worth 'praying for' is wisdom. The acquisition of wisdom is the purpose of incarnation and reincarnation.
    What if I found, through one of these reincarnation searches, that I had recently been a Japanese soldier who beat POW's to death? How could I live with such a thing? I have the wisdom now to not do such things and isn't that what matters?
    To seek wisdom ourselves is to create a more powerful God, one who will have the collective wisdom to support this earth in peace and live forever here. And if we ain't there yet, it just means we have lots of work to do.
    So if religion is a belief in a divine (divine meaning pleasing or attractive) being, then count me in. Reincarnation, for me, is my religion.

    Joe
     
  11. Wicker

    Wicker Senior Registered

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    JoeKay, as an aside your example of a Japanese soldier beating POWs to death I find interesting and revealing of your beliefs. (My intent is not to be critical here but just to submit a comment to people who seriously consider that reincarnation might be a reality.)

    Perhaps in the big scheme of things, beating a POW to death is not an indication of lower or higher advancement. Neither is it something to be ashamed of nor proud of. It might be just a happening an experience, an opportunity to learn or an opportunity to fulfil some outstanding karmic debt. I may not say this right but perhaps it is of no consequence at all.

    God is present in all things including things that humans of certain cultures decree as good or bad but that in other cultures or times might be considered just the opposite. God permeates everything including acts of vengence (vengence is mine sayeth the Lord), jeolosy (I am a jeolous god), wraith, (The wraith of God)(I am a fierce god) and on and on. God is also a god of love. God is a god of opposites, the yin and yang that balances the universe. God is everything.

    God is as much a part of the Japanese soldier in your example as of the POW.

    If one remembers a past life of atrocities in which one was the perpetrator, it is not so much of living with one's self in that knowledge as it is of acknowledging the happening, accepting it, learning from it and moving forward.

    This is the path to godhood.
     
  12. asetneferankh

    asetneferankh Senior Registered

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    Wicker,

    Your last post really stirred something in me. Your sentiments are the stones of the path I am just now stepping onto.

    To all, I don't recall any famous past lives. But I think it is important that people who do remember them express them to the world, especially if they have no particular claim to fame in this time. In part, because as someone interested in history, I want to know the REAL truth. In part also, because it's important for people to understand that fame or greatness or ability is achievable for the average person. By that, I don't mean that anyone can be Mozart or Alexander the Great, but rather that the possibility for being more than an average Joe is inside all of us.

    Yes, there are people who want to believe they were a historical figure in order to compensate for an average life now, but is that so bad? I'm not an advocate of imparting inaccurate information, but that delusion might be helpful to them. Believing that she is was a princess might be what it takes to give self esteem to a young girl. If that makes her a better person, so be it.
     
  13. fiziwig

    fiziwig moderator emeritus

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    Again we come back to the two distinctly different purposes for looking into past lives. One is for personal healing, or satisfying personal curiosity and the other is to try to uncover the facts about how reincarnation really works.

    There's no harm done to the first purpose if a person believes a false past life. But in the second case, that of trying to uncover the real truth behind the whole mystery of life the Universe and everything, every piece of false information we have to wade through makes it that much more difficult to find the truth.

    In addition, blatently ridiculous false past life memories tarnish the whole field in the eyes of people reasonable enough to recognize nonsense for what it is. So false memories have two harmful consequences. They lead us away from the truth we are seeking and they give the study of reincarnation a bad name. It's hard enough to get people to take reincarnation seriously without some goofball teenage burger flipper claiming to be the reincarnation of Ghengis Kahn and making us all look ridiculous by association.

    If I were convinced, for example, that I had been former president Andrew Jackson in a past life I would keep that belief totally secret from everyone because I recognize how that claim, even if true, damages the credibility of reincarnation. It piles one more incredible claim on top of a claim that too many already find unbelievable. To ask someone to swallow to much at once is guaranteed to scare them away.

    Example: Suppose you approach a skeptic with the case histories of Dr. Stevenson. You might actually get him to take a serious look at them. He might even find them convincing. Now suppose you approach the same skeptic with the claim that you are the reincarnation of Abraham Lincoln and that he is the reincarnation of Xontar King of Atlantis. BANG! You've lost him completely. He doesn't believe in reincanration, he doesn't believe in Atlantis, and he doesn't believe that you and he could both have been famous in past lives. He thinks you are a kook who wears tinfoil hats and prays to aliens and he doesn't want his academic career tarnished by associating with an obvious (in his eyes) lunatic.

    Now suppose that everything you told him is absolutely true! Suppose you really were Abe Lincoln. Suppose he really was Xontar King of Atlantis. It doesn't matter! You gave him more than he could handle and scared him away when holding back and presenting the information in bite-sized, managble chunks that he could swallow might have won you a convert.

    If we are going to spread the good word and teach people to see what we have seen then we have to take small steps, and not bombard them with wild claims then will send them away rolling their eyes in disgust.

    Yes, even if those wild claims are true, they harm the cause more than help it.

    Anyway, that's my opinion on the matter.
     
  14. Birgitte Heuschkel

    Birgitte Heuschkel Still MIA.

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    "What if I found, through one of these reincarnation searches, that I had recently been a Japanese soldier who beat POW's to death? How could I live with such a thing? "

    Well, at first there is denial. I was a hero. I tried to help the unfortunates and work secretly against the evil government. I really was a god guy. Yep.

    Then comes fact. Tough luck, kid, research into history, personnel files, and whatever, not to mention the sheer odds, say you weren't any better or the worse than the rest of them. The proverbial manure hit the fan and you just followed orders like the others. Questioningly, possibly, but you killed those people all the same.

    And finally -- or maybe I should say, so far -- comes acceptance. You didn't get to pick your past life when you began remembering. All you can do is remember, learn, and try not to repeat the mistakes you made last time around.
     
  15. fiziwig

    fiziwig moderator emeritus

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    I am not shy about admitting my beliefs, but I would never be pushy. I would just show them, if they wanted to see it, some good information. But what I would be affraid to show them is information that would be too alien to their own way of thinking. I'd rather just make it available in tiny little bite-sized pieces for whoever is ready to start taking a look at it.
     
  16. intuit

    intuit Senior Registered

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    To fiziwig,

    "Who could be a racists when he knew that his own past lives included himself as a member of a number of different races? Does it make any sense for me to be prejudiced against blacks when I remember my own African past life?"

    Why does one need to live a past life as another race in order to be accepting of that race? This experience is unnecessary. What is necessary is seeing the value of all that exists, which requires understanding.
     
  17. fiziwig

    fiziwig moderator emeritus

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    Very true. I didn't mean this was the only way to overcome racism. Just another of many ways of becoming enlightened to the equality of all souls reagrdless of the circumstances of their present incarnation.
     
  18. Jerry Johnson

    Jerry Johnson Senior Registered

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    Fiziwig would do it bit by bit and the mark would never notice. Without realizing it, gradualism has come to permeate almost everything in American society, anyway. WE accept the idea without even thinking about it!

    Gradualism butressed by technobabble has really become an insidious thing.

    Politically , our freedoms have been removed from us by gradualism. Your boss screws with you little by little till you leave. A nation of Lester Burnnham's till he smartened up ! "American beauty". The other extreme was a man whose entire existence was wrapped up not in "colonel". But resoundingly in "Marine Colonel". Both characters suffered through a life of gradualism.

    I never accepted gradualism anywhere. I never was subjected to the kind of crap Lester Burnham suffered either. I once heard a friend tell a fellow employee. "Never set up Jerry, he is the most diabolical mind I ever met". My friend never put up with gradualism from the top either. We are both well beyond the age range where the old coots get canned. My boss tried sneaky XXXT on me years ago. I did triple sneaky XXXT too in returning the favor.

    In school, the psychobabble and rancid butter like PC are slowly indoctrinated in the kid till he is a clone of the role model desired by the system. Of course the gradualism in poor areas differs remarkably from that of very wealthy areas. You do not just say, here is the horsedump the system wants you to absorb. Read it and adopt it, or else. That is the honest way, at least. "Slow Dosage" is how the Churchs' steal your mind.


    One of the things you learn early in accounting is sneaking the grift on to the books. Many years ago, we were told this year the number is $1.21 a share plus or minus 3 tenths. Every year, there was this gaggle of goosepusses at my door. Jer.. We need a cent or we need to lose a cent. Of course, I gave them what they wanted. They hated me for it because i always asked if they thought they were honest. A ritual. Dutifully, all said yes. It was not to much to ask. The rate of growth of earnings per share is a planned thing.. Nearly universal.

    Let them have it all , at once. If they do not like it, too bad. Now if I want to steal their money, that is a different matter.

    What really irked 'em was my retort about being honest. "I am a crook as long I do these things. It is worth the pay. Besides, I never met a stock speculator that was not a grifter."

    On an over all scale, of any concoction, most all honest people are really petty dishonest. Most all admitted crooks have greater integrity.
     
  19. intuit

    intuit Senior Registered

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    To Jerry Johnson,

    "Every year, there was this gaggle of goosepusses at my door. Jer.. We need a cent or we need to lose a cent. Of course, I gave them what they wanted. They hated me for it because i always asked if they thought they were honest. A ritual. Dutifully, all said yes. It was not to much to ask."

    You went along with it,yet you criticize them for cooking the books? That's hypocritical.

    "Let them have it all , at once. If they do not like it, too bad. Now if I want to steal their money, that is a different matter."

    So, it's okay for you to steal their money and get away with it.

    "What really irked 'em was my retort about being honest. 'I am a crook as long I do these things. It is worth the pay. Besides, I never met a stock speculator that was not a grifter.'"

    You're saying that it's okay to steal for your company as long as you're getting paid. You say it is worth it because you get paid. Then, you excuse yourself by saying "everyone does it". Morality has no price and if you think it does, then you have little integrity.

    "On an over all scale, of any concoction, most all honest people are really petty dishonest. Most all admitted crooks have greater integrity."

    If "honest" people were dishonest, then they wouldn't be honest, would they? Just because a crook can admit to doing something wrong does not give him integrity. So, you're saying it's okay to steal as long as you are honest about it. You need to take responsibility for your actions. You're as immoral as your bosses.
     
  20. Jerry Johnson

    Jerry Johnson Senior Registered

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    Barrington, Illinois USA
    Thank you so much for the compliment! No, I lead them to a better view. I am not a fanatic about it. My present job for many years is to prevent such things. I now have the power to stop similar such things and do! I got the power because, I know the angles.

    If it makes you feel good, I am immoral. Immoral is being gloriously alive , a trait I never see in do gooders! I swear, invent very wicked jokes about honest folk and do lots of immoral things like refusing to poison the Dandelions in my lawn! My neighbors put this in a class with Capone!

    Immoral is a judgement call. Especially in accounting.. or so us immoral ones say. What I described takes place in EVERY publically held company. The little junk begats big things if you ardently subscibe to the immoral being moral. It is better to knowingly do wrong than to not know the difference.

    A question. Is it immoral to defend a client you kmow to be guilty with a not guilty defense? Take into account you are appointed Counsel with no choice. If it were an essay, the title would be "How to get disbarred".

    Rigid moral structures fascinate me. They would be the perfect structures for hell. If people called me moral, I would be insulted.
     

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