Good deeds and soul age

Discussion in 'Reincarnation Questions' started by Obie, Dec 19, 2014.

  1. Obie

    Obie Senior Registered

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    Do older souls generally experience tougher lives and do younger souls experience easier lives b/c that is all that they are able to handle?

    I see people who have nothing given to them and awful childhoods sometimes become the best of people. And people with wonderful lives where they are given the best of everything not amount to much. Why is this? Do old souls persevere no matter what? Do they always end up as good people who are capable of a lot of good?
     
  2. Blackbird

    Blackbird New Member

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    Many I admire most seem to have (or have had) a particularly tough time in the world. I've often thought it seems as though they've enrolled in 'graduate courses,' as it were!


    This statement by Elisabeth Kübler-Ross rings true to me:


    “The most beautiful people we have known are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss, and have found their way out of the depths. These persons have an appreciation, a sensitivity, and an understanding of life that fills them with compassion, gentleness, and a deep loving concern. Beautiful people do not just happen.”


    And I also think that the compassion and gentleness may well up after a good bit of natural anger, frustration and confusion have harrowed the field. I think perhaps one of the most important things is to be gentle with one's own flaws and failures in the midst of suffering... Growth is a strange organic non-linear thing, with unguessable ingredients, or so it seems to me. :)
     
  3. AOSpare

    AOSpare Zos Kia Cultus

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    In reincarnation you will never get into more than you can handle...I think just the opposite...


    Younger souls tend have it harder, but what is hard and easy life depends on your attitude and resilience. How you perceive hardships and adversity can be different for each and every one of you. Old souls usually have no expectations for beyond the bare necessities while younger souls would think with their ego and perceive that material means beyond their basic needs are paramount for their happiness. However, and this is the important part! Misdeeds can and will happen! We can go astray at any level of our "soul-age" and then you somehow will have to "reap what you have sown." Very high beings can and sometimes do make drastic karmic mistakes. These can be betrayal or other interpersonal issues.

     
  4. Blackbird

    Blackbird New Member

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    Yet, Paramahansa Yogananda, whose autobiography you mentioned, AOSpar, commented that 'saints have the hardest lives of all." I think it is perilous to imagine that troubles indicate the beginner, or even the preponderance of error. I must cast my (needless to say totally guessed at) vote with Obie's view, I think...


    Should add that I suspect it can happen both ways, in infinitely complex combinations that are beyond guessing -- for instance, the sufferings of Anne Frank and her enduring, eloquent response to them are clearly quite different from the travails of John Wayne Gacy, serial killing party clown.


    I suppose my feeling is that simplification is perilous...
     
  5. tanguerra

    tanguerra Senior Registered

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    Maybe some people are still working it out and it's nothing to do with their age, and everything to do with their attitude? Some people will be miserable no matter what, won't they? I read somewhere about people winning the lottery. If they were cheerful optimistic people before they won, they were the same happy people a year or so after the big win. Those who tended to be miserable and mean were still miserable and mean a year after they won a big prize. Many of them complained about it! They said they kept getting pestered for loans by their relatives. :)


    Maybe it's not related to the 'age' of the soul (if there is such a thing). You can get old people who are completely clueless about life, just as you can get young ones who are very, very wise.


    Maybe there is no why? Maybe it's random evolution? Maybe it's not all part of a plan?
     
  6. Demi

    Demi Senior Registered

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    Oh, I totally believe that. I've heard that from a person who was a disciple of a Shankaracharya, who did a lot of practice out in the Himalayas, and he said once he came back to society, it was like "going to hell". It was the smells and all of that mess we don't see because we have gotten used to it. But for someone who lived a very pure life, with very refined consciousness experiences, it's hell no doubt, as that person feels everything, such as the messed up energies of places and angry people... and all of that feels very real and tangible to them, like a physical pain. And so they must develop a way to protect themselves, and yet do their work in the world (and it is nice of them).


    And whenever more people get spiritual in the world, I believe, everyone is going to have to go through the phase of seeing all the dirt and vibes around them, and how much "it stinks!"...
     
  7. Eowyn

    Eowyn Wrought out of steel

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    Well, I don't agree with this at all. If you are allegedly a more "spiritually evolved" person, you are able to feel a lot of love and compassion towards all these "dirty people" like me living down here, especially knowing you were one of them not long ago. If you feel "superior" or think living here is like "Hell" because you can't stand humanity only shows you need to mingle more with them and learn to love them.


    From my point of view, "saints" as such don't exist. In the spiritual world we all are the same, and being a soul with more experience doesn't make you better either, that's like saying your elder brother is better just because he's older. And while we keep looking for "masters" who have to teach us something, we forget God (if it exists) is within us and the only master we need is ourselves.


    Saying saints live the hardest lives of all is also a generalization. I think it's more accurate to say we all can be saints and sinners, whatever we prefer, in the same life or in different lives.
     
  8. AOSpare

    AOSpare Zos Kia Cultus

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    "Originally Posted by Blackbird


    Yet, Paramahansa Yogananda, whose autobiography you mentioned, AOSpar, commented that 'saints have the hardest lives of all."


    Paramahansa Yogananda is a "real-deal", you could be right....


    I am not certain who has it better or harder, but let's quote a different saint, Master Jesus that supports this;


    “Blessed Are the Ignorant” (1 Sam. 28:1-25),


    I'd guess "knowledge" carries a burden, and often knowledge is false and misleading. Of course soul-age is not equated with knowledge but rather wisdom but you get the point...also at some point saints might stumble into the cross-hair of the "dark-forces", which is not very pleasant.


    Incidentally, Jesus was tortured and killed, that ought to tell you something....
     
  9. Demi

    Demi Senior Registered

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    You misunderstood what I said. There is no element of feeling "superior", or better than anyone. Those people do not judge anything, and they experience compassion with everything and everyone. That is why they come out to the world to help, even if at some level it is not comfortable for them.


    And what I mean by that, is that their nervous system is more refined, more pure, ergo more sensitive. When one becomes sensitive to love, one becomes sensitive to everything else too, that is the downside. The influences of the environment. It is not personal or emotional, it is at a concrete, physical level. The environment has an influence on how you feel. It can be uplifting or the opposite.


    Imagine that you lived for many years in a smokey drug hole pub with lots of drunks and heroine addicts, and got used to it and found it normal. Then you went away to a nice place where you get off booze, learn philosophy and become sensitive to nature. After that, you return back to the pub... the people there might still be your FRIENDS, and you might love them and want to help them all you can, yet you are not longer feeling comfortable in the environment. Alcohol fumes make you sick, cigarette smoke makes you throw up, and you found there is more to relationships than being paid for sex to fund heroin use. Seeing how wretched they are, you are overrun with compassion, and really want to help them out to show them how being healthy and happy feels like, but they completely do not understand what you are talking about, and all they say when you try is "F... Off" This is sort of how a saint might feel like when coming back into the world, and a 1000 times more strongly.
     
  10. RainyLotus

    RainyLotus River Wanderer

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    I could not disagree with this statement more. It lacks much truth. Younger souls are incredibly care free, nonchalant, and move through experiences very aloofly. They tend to look at the world like a new born child seeing a butterfly for the first time. It's actually quite inspiring to witness such individuals who find just about everything that moves entertaining. Life is not kind. It is for those perhaps born into easy circumstances who have never had struggles. We may chose to incarnate into tougher positions to attain enlightenment. Enlightenment will never be possible without suffering. And I don't mean Grandma dying last week. We all experience sadness and loss. But to experience the harder things in life, like 'not' being a part of the crowd, not fitting in because one is different, or not fitting in because you're perhaps more mature and wise beyond your years. I have always suffered for being too wise beyond my years. Young people do not want to spend time with another young individual who caries the weight of the world upon their shoulders. I have always known things, since being very small. And I am particularly sensitive to philosophical and ethical subjects, they are of great importance to me. Most young people just want to talk about partying, getting drunk, and being irresponsible. They gang up on other young people like a pack of wolves or sharks. It happens everywhere, from the professional business world or many other types of social situations. It is very uncommon that I meet an individual who is also wise beyond their years, and feels as though they are 29 going on 70, as I do. This alone, has made life full of great suffering. Though it isn't something that saddens me any more, it's something I accept as a strength. I know I am an old soul, I have always known and so have my parents. They knew I chose them by the time I was 2-3. And I have known much suffering through out my life. I will say that.


    I spent a great deal of my youth being demonized and bullied at a catholic school for not 'agreeing' with the church, I had parents not wanting their children to hang out with me because my parents were 'Buddhist', I was often times isolated and completely alone. My parents sent me to an expensive and elite catholic school for the education, of which I most certainly got the best of the best. College prep by the time you were in 6th grade.. However, most of my life at this school (K-12) was always being the outsider looking in, never knowing proper friendship, or knowing what its like to have people like you. All I had to do to be dis-liked, was not follow the herd. People operate like sheep, often times. Take the one who's different and cast him outside of the circle. This is suffering - but it has brought me great character and compassion for others who have known a lifetime of being bullied, harassed, or not part of the crowd or popular opinion. I came out on the light side now in my late 20's, and I never allowed my soul to go dark. I am full of light, love, and understanding. I have compassion and patience for all people because of what I went through. But I carry great sensitivity to those who aren't 'the popular' kids in life because of being different. I do believe this is some of the greatest suffering one can undergo spiritually, beyond the physical sense.
     
  11. AOSpare

    AOSpare Zos Kia Cultus

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    Rainy,


    Which sentence? You have quoted both. Either way, it is silly to quibble on who has it easier or harder. I have mentioned above that it is subjective and depends on YOU and how you roll with the punches.


    "In reincarnation you will never get into more than you can handle" do you disagree with this, too?

     
  12. RainyLotus

    RainyLotus River Wanderer

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    What you've said here is a great example of what it means to become more enlightened (if one chooses this route). Choosing to not be a part of it all doesn't necessarily mean you're a coward. One does deserve peace, after all. And if this, as the example you chose, is no longer peace to the enlightened individual, then by all means, get the heck out of dodge. I retreated from the city to the mountains 5 years ago because I felt spiritually poisoned by it all. I now live on 45 acres with a 360' of 14K peak mountains. Not waking up to the hustle and bustle of city life every day has brought great peace to my soul. It was the best decision I ever made, and my spirit no longer feels poisoned. Am I cowardly saint now? I hope not..
     
  13. RainyLotus

    RainyLotus River Wanderer

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    I actually only deleted some of your paragraph out to make sure there was room to post. I'm new, and didn't know how many characters it will allow.. I was quoting your entire statement. Do I agree with not getting more into what we can't handle, regarding reincarnation? No, I don't agree, because of free will. It is the free will of others that effects how quickly or slowly our souls progress into a more enlightened state of being. We can't control any one. I could get murdered tomorrow, or brutally beaten to death, and I wouldn't blame it on Karma or my soul's stage of evolution. Free will is far more powerful than Karma, if that even exists.. I don't ever blame Karma on bad experiences or bad luck. It is what it is, and that is the nature of reality. Though the people who are inflicting pain upon others, whether it be emotionally or physically, are certainly DE-evolving quite rapidly..


    I don't think we can fully prepare ourselves for anything, but surely it is our soul's current state of evolution that effects the way we handle the experience. An older and more experienced soul is going to handle pain with grace. And by grace I mean, just because he/she got dumped on their whole lives (much like I have), they will not take it out on others or inflict pain upon others because they felt they got a rotten hand at cards this life. The younger soul will consider it the end of their world and react like a child, inflicting pain emotionally (or physically) to people as some sort of justification for the fact they aren't getting the perfect life. Most criminals, for example, often times have the psychological background of an individual who underwent a lot of abuse growing up - so, they are now dishing out the same treatment to the world. These are our young souls. Turning lemons into lemonade, is the idea. It's not very easy to do. I mean, it's not as if the more experienced souls even realize they are experienced when handling a terrible situation. Often times they have no idea and its those around them who are observant to their evolution stage. I have known people who were beaten, abused, and tormented as children (modern psychology would say these people are at high risk to become troubled members of society), and they turned into some of the most enlightened , kind, and caring individuals I know. It blows your mind that that could even be possible judging by what they endured. With no example of love, how did they do it? They may not believe in reincarnation. What they don't realize, is that they were already prepared to handle it because of their spiritual evolution's stage, something they perhaps aren't aware of. Their past lives provided them the tools to see the abuse for what it was, rather than internalize it and become full of hatred/poison. Just my two cents.
     
  14. AOSpare

    AOSpare Zos Kia Cultus

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    Interesting post. When it comes to most things I am a determinist except for 1)quantum mechanics, where I am an indeterminist and 2)the human mind, where I am a proponent of free will. We seem to have choices but isn't that perhaps an illusion?

     
  15. RainyLotus

    RainyLotus River Wanderer

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    How could it be an illusion? We all can change any single thing we want in our lives at any given time. I'm a fan of putting myself in uncomfortable situations that I normally wouldn't do, just to prove to myself: Yeah, I'll do it. It's like constantly testing the 'system', if there was a system per-determining anything.. Sort of like: Hey, you think you're going to send me in that direction because my thoughts are steering that way? Nah, screw you. I think I'll go this way instead. I'm constantly re-charting/re-routing what I'd like to do.. I know, I sound like a firecracker. Huh? :) I'll be moving to the Oregon coast this spring, just because I'm ready for a change, and want one.. My long term companion passed away recently of cancer, so I'm randomly and chaotically picking a new place to call home. I just need the change of scenery. Of course I'll be going prepared (I'm not that impulsive..)


    Most certainly though, that is free will in its glory. wine**
     
  16. AOSpare

    AOSpare Zos Kia Cultus

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    I believe we "exist" on many levels/dimensions. Maya(Illusion) in this temporal life (according to the Hindu's/Buddhists view is all just in our head(mind). Paradoxically, in this "illusion" of life we are making wise or dumb choice, decisions etc. But Life/Nature is choreographed to perfection.


    Namaste (means merry Christmas) among other things...


    Anyway, welcome to my madness Lotus

     
  17. Eowyn

    Eowyn Wrought out of steel

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    Their nervous system is more refined... and this, was analyzed, by who? Is there really any physical sign in a nervous system to say someone is "sainter" than others? I've always been quite sensitive, I've never been comfortable in most places like those you describe, and I like to help people, and some of them even told me to "F... off", do you think that makes me a saint?


    Learning philosophy and become sensitive to nature doesn't make you sainter either. Am I a saint because I am a veggie and I feel compassion for animals and try to convince people to stop eating meat? I don't think so (Just to clarify, it's just an example, I don't try to convince anyone to stop eating meat, it's their choice, and what I think it's right, it's right for me, not everyone else). Nothing guarantees in my next life I'll be a veggie again, by the way, the same way I was a hunter once and now I wouldn't be able to shoot anyone. So, I don't think any person considered "a saint" by us like Teresa of Calcuta is planning her next reincarnation thinking we need her help, probably she has her own personal agenda.


    Btw, don't take my comments so personally, quoting you doesn't mean I'm totally against you, I'm just reflecting and saying my opinion. I know what I read, but I can introduce my own elements like "feeling superior", can't I? I think that's what many "gurus" and so called "spiritual figures" do, even when they don't show it.
     
  18. AOSpare

    AOSpare Zos Kia Cultus

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    Welcome to the West Coast Brother.(I have lived in Colorado briefly)


    Also, I am sorry about your companion. The "free will" thing is an age old philosophical sticking point, that cannot be settled. In my mind I am also somewhat skeptical of any "ultimate truth" is this matter. What I have learnt in my life that true spirituality= myriads of paradoxes. We cannot just know for certain, because as soon as we do, it will flip on us, on a dime.

     
  19. Demi

    Demi Senior Registered

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    There actually is, and it is measured on an EEG, people with global brain coherence (activation of brain waves in many areas simultaneously) and Alpha1 in the waking state, experience higher states of consciousness, which is the ability to experience "restful alertness." It is a deeply peaceful internal state even in the midst of dynamic activity (as opposed to most people whose inner peace is determined by circumstances/overshadowed by activity). Other sign is "witnessing sleep", which is during all stages of sleep, including the deep dreamless state, one is blissfully aware. One's awareness never goes to sleep, so to say. Other measures include skin resistance, breath rate, etc. So the physiology is linked to consciousness, and the purity in nervous system - how well the body channels consciousness, determines these things. People in this state when asked to describe it, tell its absolute inner freedom from fear and an acceptance of all things, and they feel like they are being subtly helped by higher powers at all time. They say it's a wonderful state of mind, also called "flow" by athletes, and "enlightenment" in world traditions.


    Yes there are a lot of fake guru's, and the random person next door could be in higher states...


    Hook your guru up to an EEG... :) (Or at least check on the signs.)
     
  20. Eowyn

    Eowyn Wrought out of steel

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    Well, if you want to back your beliefs with science, let's do it right. First, I'd appreciate an actual link to this scientific study you mention, to see for myself if it's valid.


    In the meanwhile, I hope this study includes clear definitions of "saints" and "enlightened people", as I thought we were talking of these, not of athletes. In a scientific study we have to know from the beginning the objective of our study and the subjects we are going to use for the experiment.


    I know the existence of studies that focused on the brain of meditators, such as Tibetan monks. And it's a proven fact that meditators have certain areas more developed than normal people, but does this mean Tibetan monks are all saints or enlightened? I think that's like saying all nuns are good and more advanced souls than the rest of us, and I know a few who stole babies from their mothers to sell them to other women... Also, if I commit myself from this very moment to meditate all day long and practice astral projection every night, it's quite likely the structure of my brain will change after a few years. Does that mean I'll also be an enlightened, more loving and compassionate person, and I will be so for the rest of eternity and I'll come back in my next incarnation as an avatar to bring light to human beings? Let me doubt it.


    You say: "the physiology is linked to consciousness, and the purity in nervous system - how well the body channels consciousness, determines these things". This might be well your theory or your opinion, but I doubt this comes from scientific knowledge, as scientists have still a lot of research to do to determine what consciousness is, where it resides, and how it influences our bodies. As far as I know, scientists still doubt if we indeed survive death, as the latest study conducted on NDE's by Sam Parnia has brought nothing different than what we already knew from Dr. Moody.


    That said, does "consciousness" affect our phisiology? Well, according to my experience, yes, undoubtedly. Everyone who meditates in a regular basis knows this, but this alone doesn't prove anything, beyond the fact that we, somehow, can control our body. My own theory is our soul can influence our physical body, including genetics, especially at the moment of birth. The more you meditate, the more aware you become, you also gain intuition and it's possible you even start seeing other realities, but someone who is born with these "abilities" or someone who develops them through hard training (like lamas do) is not necessarily a "saint", an "old soul" or someone enlightened. It only means they learned the techniques to do this, something we all can do.

    No, I don't have gurus, so I can't measure that. But I've been feeling for a few weeks strange sensations in my brain's right temporal lobe (some say it's related to mystical experiences) and lately I'm constantly feeling pressure in the center of my forehead, maybe you'd be surprised if you hook me up to an EEG, or any other people in this forum. And no, I'm no one special. Least of all a saint.
     

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