How Vested Should We Be, When We're Really Just Passing Through

Discussion in 'Reincarnation, Religion and Spirituality' started by SeaAndSky, Jun 12, 2020.

  1. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    How vested should we be when we’re really just sojourners here? This could include a lot of topics, but for the moment I’m thinking in terms of nations, cultures, civilizations, etc.

    I’m going to start with the question: How vested should we be in what we see as our civilization? Rome fell. First in the West and then, eventually, the Eastern Roman Empire fell as well, though it took around 1000 years to complete the job. I think I was around. No civilization lasts it seems, but I have to wonder whether it is best to be in the fight to save a dying world or to let it go. It is normal to flee and seek a place of safety. The Cathars did, and the last of their holiest fled to their own place of refuge—Montsegur. They might just as well have burned with the rest, for Montsegur also fell in the end, and their own turn at the stake was merely delayed a bit. Once again, I think I may have been around. If my suspicions are correct, I fled the French Revolution and its Jacobins with my parent, who then proceeded to once again paint portraits for the upper class in Imperial Russia. Later, in another “probable” lifetime, I most likely watched aghast from afar as another Revolution (just as terrible in the long run) destroyed what had been my former “world” in Imperial Russia. Ironically, I think it may have been my turn, next time around, to die under the bayonet of the Russian Bolsheviks as they invaded from the East in WWII. So, I had the dubious honor of being present when Communist “Jacobins” ultimately defeated National Socialist “Jacobins.”

    As you can see, I use the term “Jacobin” fairly loosely, but it serves its purpose, for all of the ones I label “Jacobins” seem to be ultimately cut from the same cloth. They are the opportunistic infection that invades the wounds caused by injustice in, or injury to, the “body politic”. They claim to be allies of the oppressed, but ultimately they seek control and domination, or are the unwitting dupes and “useful idiots” of those who do. They are the infection that ultimately kills the infected host, transforms it into the equivalent of a rabid animal, or leaves it weakened for conquest by outside predators.

    I will not say who I think fills this description at present, for that is not the question I am trying to answer. It is just that I find myself visited at times now by what seems to be a familiar feeling of hopelessness and despair at what also seems to be a never-ending cycle of collapse and destruction. Why despair? Because—fool that I am--I have once again become vested as I apparently always do in the “civilization” I currently call “home”. But should I? Should you? Civilizations come and go. We also come and go. We are in many respects just “ships passing in the night.” Why then should we allow ourselves to become vested in a particular culture or civilization? I have my thoughts on the matter, but I also would like to hear yours.

    In addition, what should we do when we see things crumbling into dust and the barbarian hordes rushing in? If it has not yet come to that, it may soon be here.

    Also, where could you go if you fled? This is extremely important as most of Western Civilization seems to be “infected” to some degree. Where could you flee to that would not be much worse or merely another Montsegur in the end?

    These are not theoretical questions. I don’t think the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution, or the Nazi takeover could have been predicted 10 years before they happened. What seems impossible can materialize very quickly when the situation is ripe and a crisis pushes things over the edge.

    Cordially,
    S&S

    PS--I'm not sure exactly where to put this topic, but this seems as good a spot as any, for it really does have a spiritual aspect.
     
  2. Cyrus

    Cyrus Senior Member

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    Hi, S&S,

    Not quite sure if I get you right.

    There has always been a place for exodus:

    The western Romans fled to the Eastern Empire, the Byzantines fled to the Western Europe or to Russia, the French fled to England and the rest of Europe, including imperial Russia, the Russians fled mostly to France, some fled to China and further to Australia, Canada or the USA. The Germans fled first to France, Switzerland and later to the USA, the Nazis fled to Argentina, Paraguay (after the WWII), and so on. Just read "A night in Lisbon" by E.M.Remarque.

    What could be a "safe mountain" (mont+segur) for an American nowadays, if the sutuation there gets much worse? Well, just look around you: maybe Australia, Europe or even Russia?

    I've always had an uneasy sensation that we are a kind of invaders in this material world, parasiting on (well, maybe symbiotizing with) the human bodies inhabiting this planet, so, to some extent, we don't entirely belong to this world. In the worst of cases we can always just escape into the other dimension and wait and see from outside how the situation on this planet is developing.

    Best regards.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2020
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  3. Klaud

    Klaud Senior Member

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    Where I am on my journey now, I'm tired of fighting. I have no need or motivation to do it. Everything falls eventually.

    We're slaves to a system that doesn't care about us and I'm failing to see the point in anything.

    This kind of global chaos is probably more beneficial to younger souls who are still trying to figure out where to go and what their own purpose is.

    If it all goes to pot, I'd just find a quiet place to hide away from everyone else.
     
  4. There and back again

    There and back again Senior Member

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    Most of us have been around in just about anyway one can care to imagine much less the surprises but personally I am pretty burnt out and need something fresh compared to what most of us have been living with for ages past. I hear a lot of good things about other worlds though some can be pretty bad in their own right but overall what we have right now is about almost as bad as it can get without kicking the bucket. I really don't have a place in this world so to speak anymore as I am bit of a throw back where things were less materialistic and less political but more so the psychological differences today are rather shocking for me to say the least. The older I get the more I have to come to terms with that old world introverts are just not what modern society wants.

    As for civilization we're just about to experience what could be the biggest collapse of them all as the decade plays out as there is too many compounding problems piling up all at once coupled with so many social problems plaguing society I really doubt that it can be pulled through this time. Without saying too much the rest of the year is going to be horrendous for all the expected reasons. I've started telling people recently to stock up on essential items again and when possible to buy a generator just in case.
     
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  5. tanker

    tanker Senior Registered

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    I used to be an optimist, but recent events have made me think that's unrealistic. I too don't fit in to this materialistic world, nor do I fit into the apparent 'culture' of the country I find myself in. I don't have any feeling of belonging, except to a life that is dead and gone. I see nothing as permanent, unless it's the cycle of death and rebirth. Personally? I've had enough. I've seen too much already. There's no more fight left in me. If the worst happens and there's a war, I'd hope to get a direct hit and go quickly. If not, I doubt if I'd flee. I'd just lie down and quietly give up.

    But there again, who knows ..?
     
  6. cloud potato

    cloud potato Senior Registered

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    in a previous post now deleted by staff i used the word bystander which is contrary to what i feel. i was hoping one would comment on it pointing out the contradiction and allowing for thoughtful discourse. had previously mentioned this coming down to a simple solution. love vs hate and choosing to live in the present. fear, anger or anxiety goes to the hate category. as does living in an outdated past or guilting another human being for simply existing. many of the confused and angry are innocent pawns to a rich mans game, waging a cultural revolution upon us and profiting off a divided people. it isn't a question of amount one should be invested but how one chooses to live. do you become dismissive when attacks are made against you or your family? as for my family and neighborhood, i shared with there and back again that we are stocked and prepared to fend for ourselves. we also agree to choose to live in love and do our best to respond from a place that would see each human being as equal. the war happening now is psychological. we are bombarded with propaganda and virtue signaling. we live in a hyper-connected technologic world which has accurately been described as a double edged sword. everything here is too political and we are witnessing overreactions by all parties due to this super highway of information. most of todays movements being politicized serve as a trojan horse for the change around the bend. the same changes you see that have caused you to post your thread. is history repeating itself? i'd think that the majority of us feel as you do, tired and do not wish to fight. it seems when you pit these tired and good men together they are primed to pull through. i've witnessed it(time and time again). how vested should you be? no you don't need to worry about that. but we need to ask ourselves how we choose to live. good luck. <3
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2020
  7. tanker

    tanker Senior Registered

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    cloud potato, I like that idea that there's still some point to the tired and good men if they stay together. It's a chink of light in what to me isn't an optimistic future. I've often asked myself the question 'how vested should one be?' and perhaps I'm lazy or perhaps I'm too uncertain, but so far have found no answer. So much depends on things unfolding that we haven't necessarily thought up, and at such a time I wonder if the basic survival instinct will come to the fore in any case. How well do we even know ourselves? Whatever reactions we might have to unexpected circumstances might surprise us yet. We're not that good at learning the lessons of history, though. As you say, only time will tell. I hope and pray not to be put to the test.
     
  8. Speedwell

    Speedwell Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Regarding the question posed in the title "How Vested Should We Be, When We're Really Just Passing Through", it seems to me that some of the viewpoints expressed in this thread are from deeply-vested positions. It seems to me a moot point to ask whether or not one should be so.

    Perhaps the title is merely a subterfuge to reintroduce political discussion under another guise?

    Addressing that opening question for myself: much of this lifetime for me has been a process of self-healing. It seems to require being here in this physical world to achieve that. Otherwise healing would have already taken place in the between-lives phase. So in that respect, I appreciate being here, for what it has allowed me to do. But I'm well aware of the idea expressed in a biblical quote, which I think gives sound advice:
     
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  9. cloud potato

    cloud potato Senior Registered

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  10. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi Speedwell,

    Re: "Perhaps the title is merely a subterfuge to reintroduce political discussion under another guise?"

    Actually, I was thinking about certain images in my mind from various books I had read in the past. One was from Anne Rice’s “vampire” genre, where vampires were of the more cultivated variety that has become popular in modern fiction. These vampires no longer participated in most respects in human society. They kept to themselves and watched history being made, but remained aloof as timeless and largely unchanging and invulnerable immortals. Another variety of books—dealing with beings at the opposite end of the scale from vampires—introduced me to Tolkien’s elves. One of their characteristics was their unwillingness to be involved in most things involving “mortals” and mortal affairs--who they saw as transient and largely unimportant to their concerns, as ephemeral as may flies.

    Finally, there was a book that I did not read, but read about. It involved people more like us, with an important exception. They had complete memory of their past lives and never lost it lifetime after lifetime. They found others like themselves and formed a group that stayed together lifetime after lifetime (at least as a loose association) of fellow travelers who—in each succeeding lifetime could come together with their old friends and acquaintances. They knew themselves as immortal. How they used this knowledge I don’t recall. Certainly if they could come to a common plan of action they could choose to impact human affairs and their own subsequent lifetimes over long periods of time—kind of like super Illuminati (if such exist). I recall one person who posted here a while back who wanted to know how he could hide some things for himself and be sure to locate them again in his next lifetime. (A nice way to keep it all for yourself if you can manage it :cool:). People like I just described could certainly do that, but the main reason they interested me at the moment is because they shared a knowledge of their continuing existence in some new form that we also share.

    This raises some interesting questions when we see things heading in directions we know they have headed before and may have experienced. What should our reaction be?

    Cordially,
    S&S
     
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  11. Polaris8

    Polaris8 Senior Registered

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    SeaAndSky,

    That was an interesting view point and I enjoyed reading it. I must say that many that are incarnated today had PL's during the Rome Empire and it was a long one. I for one included. As during that time period I was at my young soul stage of spiritual development back then and was dealing with the handling of power and the lower ego. It is during this stage of spiritual development that most of our karma is created which will have to later be worked out during our mature and old soul stage of spiritual development.

    And in some ways America is following a similar path in the grand scheme of things as the US is a relatively younger country compared to Asia, Africa and even Europe. However from a soul's point of view all things in the physical world are temporary and ever changing including Civilizations. The earth plane and our physical universe was created as a lower school and training ground for soul to handle and master it's own reality by working through the lower ego which deals with the mind. So the only thing that is permanent is change and our experience as soul. Because in the end when we translate from the physical world the only thing we take with us is what is inside us (our experience). Everything else is left behind including our body which we return to the natural element's of the physical world which will in turn help nourish and feed other living things be it plants, animals ect. All things are in perfect balance. So we take this earth plane experience with us each time as come back and that experience is added to our overall spiritual maturity, growth and evolution. This is what we invest in while where. At some point along the journey we no longer need to come back here as our education as soul at least on this level of reality is finished.

    The empires we once lived in and where apart of have turned back to sand and the element's of the earth. However the experience of those states of consciousness we where once in will remain apart of us forever within our soul makeup as a individualized state of consciousness. In time the earth itself will be gone as our sun grows older and becomes a red giant engulfing all the inner planets including ours. By then humanity itself will be gone and those that are alive at the point in time will never know we ever existed at all as all evidence of us being here will be gone by then.

    So in a senses we are just passing through. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.

    Love and peace always...

    P.
     
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  12. John Tat

    John Tat Senior Registered

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    Hi S&S What you said is true ... IMO it should be looked at more in the reality of what is going on more so than the emotional aspects of what is going on
    The reality at present is... the world is in chaos because of the coronavirus....the only country.. at least the only western country that is in deep divide is the US and as a result chaos has reached very high levels .. as a result those living in the US are more likely to have a more pessimistic view about what is going on...
    When I as young I was told as America goes so goes the world.. I have always remembered that.. For decades after WWII that was how it was and I'm sure Americans knew and understood that
    But now things are changing.. the world is changing ... especially with the emergence of China as a economic and military world power.. The standing the US has had is being challenged
    IMO the uncertainty created by the deep divide that has been going on for a long time is added to the uncertainty about the US standing in the world then you have a country that is real trouble... as a result Americans feel uncertain about there future
    The images coming out of the US are terrible
    You are right that it is your country not any other western country that is in this situation
    IMO the US has to be careful on what decisions they make.. both militarily and economic.. they may find they have few friends if they make the wrong decisions
    The way things are going/have gone countries are not going to get involved in another American war

    All The Best
     
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  13. Cyrus

    Cyrus Senior Member

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    Hi, folks.

    I think if we really believed in re-incarnation, it wouldn't matter so much to any of us what will happen to America, not more than it matters what's happened to Rome or to Babylon.

    But it matters, and it's because of the lack of faith. Because, deep in our hearts we know that this is the only life each of us will ever have, and that's what makes all the difference.

    A couple of weeks ago I almost got infected, when they sprayed my hands with an antiseptic on entering a supermarket, and one of my fingers began to sting, and so I found out that there was a micro-wound on it (from a kitchen knife), which means I could have been infected each time I touched anything outside of my house.

    I was quite surprised by my own reaction: instead of being shocked and scared, I was glad it had happened.

    Because now I know for sure that when I die I'll be re-incarnated, and I had once expressed on this forum my willingness to even accelerate this process, though some of the forum members tried to dissuade me from doing this deliberately (bad karma and all that).

    But in the case of that hypothetical infection I was clean - it would be an accident which could have happened to anybody and for which nobody could hold me responsible, and so I had a clear way to start a brand new life.

    Something like this, folks.

    Rest regards.
     
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  14. tanker

    tanker Senior Registered

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    Hi Polaris. Is this your opinion, or do you have some evidence? Created by whom with this intention? I'd be interested to know where your information comes from, and if we could share it.
     
  15. Jim78

    Jim78 Senior Registered

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    Hi S&S. Excellent topic. I hope the mods realise that this topic goes faaar beyond politics and into the more ethereal and separated state of having memories of having lived before.

    To steer this topic even further away from political discourse I would like to offer my own experiences on what is being discussed.

    As you know, in November 2013 I made a decision to sit history out and not to interfere. This was before I had past life knowledge. I realised at that time that combating a certain evil would have created a greater evil...so I decided to fade from histories glare.

    It was only after that decision that I came to remember that I had always engaged with history making events in all of my remembered past lives so stepping aside and letting history run its course without me was a new choice for my soul.

    Yet this has left me in a moral quagmire that has made me become impotent and less invested in my life and in western civilisation as a whole.

    The root of this is a simple realisation. Suppose I happen upon a lady about to be murdered by a man. If I do nothing the lady dies and an evil occurs. If I do something and engage her attempted murderer I will have done an evil to another person, no matter how immoral their actions are. My soul will be stained with blood in the name of righteousness.

    Either way an evil happens...

    Is this the natural state of man? To be put into a world again and again where there is no choice but to let evil occur whether by ones own hand or another? Does the devil ( if one believes in such things ) hold dominion over mans free will? If I protected that lady by killing would any God understand why I chose to stain my soul with karmic debt?

    Such questions arise in my mind constantly in a circular fashion without any clear resolution. All choices except not investing seem wrong.

    I guess its the trolley car dilemma and my choice was to sacrifice no one but myself and run down the tracks and fling myself in the cars path. But life doesn't always present such clear choices all the time. Sometimes you have to drag evil down with you.

    As a result I am now a bystander to history. I am not invested in life. It seems to me that by becoming invested in life one makes bad choices even when one is protecting the innocent...bad choices on an individual karmic level. This is unavoidable.

    Yet why be sent here again and again if the most prudent course of action is not to become involved in life?
     
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  16. Polaris8

    Polaris8 Senior Registered

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    Tanker,

    It's a bit of both opinion, experience and some research into other spiritual paths that are on this earth. I follow the path of Eckankar which gives one the tools to learn the art of soul travel so that one may experience these other higher dimensions for the self so that this becomes a living reality to the individual. By learning this acience art one will eventually learn self realization as soul which takes places on the soul plane some may call this the casual plane and then eventually god realization where one becomes enlighten and aware of god consciousness within the self. This differes from astral projection which many are more aware of. Astral travel is a good start however it can only lead one to the astral and physical worlds only. And there are far more higher dimensions then just the astral world. So in astral projection one is spliting off the astral body and projecting it away from the physical to explore this other realm. We all do this in our sleep as it is a natural process however many are not aware of leaving the body at night.

    Were as in soul travel one learns to shift or move ones consciousness to various levels within the higher or inner dimensions of our universe. There we naturally use one of our inner subtle bodies which operates on these other higher dimensions already to have experience there and then bring that memory back into the physical consciousness. . So there is no splitting off or projection one of these inner subtle bodies but rather naturally moving our full awareness within them since they are already apart of us. What we learn in this is that soul itself is eternal in nature. That we exist and live in all this other dimensions including this one all at once. We are just not aware of it of the physical world in general.

    Hope this helps some.

    P.
     
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  17. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi John,

    Actually, I didn't restrict the problem to the U.S. I think what is called "Western Civilization" is in deep trouble wherever it exists, including in Oceania. However, the timing may well be different in different areas. Still, if the first and biggest domino goes . . . . o_O In any case, I didn't start this thread because I thought the U.S. was in more trouble than, e.g., Europe. We're having our problems at the moment, but it could just as easily be a string of suicide bombings, terrorism, economic collapse, plague and riots in the EU next. I think the rot goes deep everywhere in the West. The issue is how we deal with the increasing likelihood of the "fall" of the West, and whether we've learned anything about how to cope with such things since the "last" time we were in this situation.

    On China, we already had some discussion of this on another thread. However, because we're trying to be historical in this thread, I think that history generally shows that Australia will be in a bad situation without the U.S. nuclear umbrella (if it goes). E.g., Larger power 1 wants what smaller power has. Smaller power relies on another larger power 2 to deter large power 1. When large power 2 is withdrawn the balance shifts and the smaller power has to kow tow to larger power 1. In this case, China wants what Australia has. Without the U.S. to counterbalance expanding Chinese power it will come to dominate that area of the world. Without the U.S. nuclear umbrella, AU will be quite susceptible to nuclear blackmail, and all the conventionally armed subs in the world won't be able to stop it. Perhaps some other countries will step up to the plate on behalf of AU. So, maybe the UK will fill the gap as it is nuclear armed, but also . . . perhaps not.

    Cordially,
    S&S

    PS--You may not have much connection to the subject of this thread at this point, as you are not planning to exist in the future and BB is concerned about Africa rather than Australia. However, glad to have you. ;)
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2020
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  18. There and back again

    There and back again Senior Member

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    The problem with John is that he politicizes when he can and singles out the US which I find irksome, I don't enjoy calling this out but I just can't ignore this when the problems are not exclusive to the US. Many of the problems and faults with the US isn't to our time but partly to times long before this as it inherited old karma from the downfall of Atlantis as well other aspects that need to be healed but sadly people choose to play politics instead helping the process of healing.
     
  19. Cyrus

    Cyrus Senior Member

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    I hope Europe avoids this parafernalia, if it is still capable of learning from its own mistakes.

    I have no words for what could result from the red nuclear button getting into the hands of those who now demolish monuments.

    It's demography that matters, and the West had been given a fair warning long ago, which it preferred to ignore.

    IMHO, of course.
     
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  20. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi Jim,

    I believe that we have a duty to try and make the world and/or ourselves better while we are here. That makes me sound far more grandiose and good than I actually am. In real life, it is about as much as I can do to try and keep up with the bills and the requirements of work and family (and hopefully work in an occasional "good deed" and some things on the "spiritual" side). However, what I would do if the @#$% hit the fan would vary a lot depending on circumstances. One set of actions is available if I'm not where it is happening (such as in the U.S. during WWII). Another set of actions would be called for if I was in the midst of the conflagration. But in terms of the latter, the experience of the Jews in WWII has been instructive, as well as the flight from the French Revolution described above. First lesson: Watch and be prepared. If I see the "Jacobins" gaining power I will know it is time to make preparations to move somewhere safer or go into hiding. Second lesson: Don't wait too long. They will take steps to prevent flight. The borders will close, things will lock down. Third lesson: Their eyes and ears are everywhere, and this will be even more true given present technology. Could one stay and fight? Possibly, but everything changes when there is a family to protect.

    As to your current feelings on the matter, I believe that you are still in "recovery mode" after some revelations about yourselves and your past lives you received. I think you might see things very differently and be drawn to act vary differently in the types of situations we are discussing on this thread. We generally live in a world of gray tones, with black and white often shading subtly into each other. Nuance and subtlety are more often called for in this situation than armed resistance. However, in the types of situations we are discussing, the contrasts between good and evil are stark and unmistakable. It no longer matters if the "good" is not perfect, because the evil is so extremely evil in comparison.

    It makes a difference.

    Cordially,
    S&S
     
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