How would Scientifically accepted proof serve our souls now?

Discussion in 'SCIENTIFIC and ANECDOTAL research' started by Native Son, Jan 12, 2020 at 1:18 PM.

  1. Native Son

    Native Son Senior Member

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    Provided that a source could be found which could present to the scientific world an ironclad piece of evidence on the reality of reincarnation, and which would be overwhelmingly accepted as proof of reincarnation, of what benefit would it serve humanity?

    In other words, how would this widely accepted scientific-based evidence change human behavior overall? Would it serve to rid all physically oriented evils of the world? No more killing, no more stealing, no more physical abuses, no more coveting what belongs to your neighbors, and other things generally considered as evils by societies all over the planet?

    But sadly, we do have those that will even deny the obvious. And even ironclad, overwhelming, worldwide scientific proof is something that will never convince some. However, if the overwhelming world population accepted the evidence of reincarnation, would it suffice to drastically change how human nature has performed to date?

    If we had such scientific proof on reincarnation, would it not be evident to most of us that Materialism is nothing worth pursuing, in the long run? Would we give it all away to the needy?

    With such evidence, would we still place Material Wealth and Material Comforts above Virtue?

    The soul, I said, being, as is now proven, immortal, must be the fairest of
    compositions and cannot be compounded of many elements?
    Certainly not.
    Her immortality is demonstrated by the previous argument, and there are
    many other proofs; but to see her as she really is, not as we now behold her,

    marred by communion with the body and other miseries, you must contemplate

    her with the eye of reason, in her original purity; and then her beauty will be
    revealed, and justice and injustice and all the things which we have described

    will be manifested more clearly. Thus far, we have spoken the truth concerning
    her as she appears at present,
    but we must remember also that we have seen
    her only in a condition which may be compared to that of the sea-god Glaucus,
    whose original image can hardly be discerned because his natural members are
    broken off and crushed and damaged by the waves in all sorts of ways, and
    incrustations have grown over them of seaweed and shells and stones, so that
    he is more like some monster than he is to his own natural form. And the soul
    which we behold is in a similar condition, disfigured by ten thousand ills. But
    not there, Glaucon, not there must we look.
    Where then?
    At her love of wisdom. Let us see whom she affects, and what society and
    converse she seeks in virtue of her near kindred with the immortal and eternal
    and divine;
    also how different she would become if wholly following this superior
    principle
    , and borne by a divine impulse out of the ocean in which she now is,
    and disengaged from the stones and shells and things of earth and rock which in
    wild variety spring up around her because she feeds upon earth, and is overgrown
    by the good things of this life as they are termed: then you would see her as
    she is, and know whether she has one shape only or many, or what her nature
    is. Plato's Republic
     
  2. Jaimie

    Jaimie Senior Member

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    Hi,

    I think sadly that no, not everyone would become less materialistic and selfish, I think it has to do more with how developed the soul is regarding this, it is a beautiful thought, though.

    I think I might have identified someone who was my husband in a past life from around the 1870's. He was materialistic. Then in another future life where I was married to him again ( not my current husband that is but the one from the 1870's or so ) he was still materialistic.
    I found out information about this man later on, and he was religious and in that religion they believe in reincarnation, but still I don't think he would be open to things like being less materialistic etc just because of that. He would only take the goodies out to eat, you know.

    Anyways, enjoy reading your words, only everything has it's time, for everyone individually. We all have our stuff to work out, I think.

    /Jaimie
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2020 at 4:32 PM
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  3. Speedwell

    Speedwell Senior Registered

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    I think this is a rather abstract discussion, based on some other version of reality, not ours.

    In my view, we already have "an ironclad piece of evidence on the reality of xxx, and which would be overwhelmingly accepted as proof of xxx", where xxx covers various topics relating to the nature of consciousness, or of the nature of ourselves, or the nature of this world .... and so on. What generally happens is that the sceptics simply discard the evidence, using such arguments as "we know that can't be true, therefore we can ignore it". This is the world we live in.
     
  4. KenJ

    KenJ Assistant Archivist and Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Plato's words were interesting and amazing to me several times in my life. His writings lead me to think how little we have learned since he lived.
     
  5. baro-san

    baro-san Senior Member

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    I wonder, as a concrete example, how did it change your thoughts and actions when you started to believe in "the reality of reincarnation"? How would it change your thoughts, if such an "ironclad piece of evidence" were accepted by the "scientific world"? The "humanity" is made of individuals ... even as most of them are manipulated by media, politicians, religions, "scientific world", ...

    What if actually there is no reincarnation as it is overwhelmingly believed? I mean: what if you don't reincarnate, but your inner-self will reincarnate into another personality?

    What if this physical world is like a virtual training ground, where our inner-selves come to practice, over and over, until they learn to do it right?

    My questions are mostly rhetorical expressing my point of view (like at Jeopardy :)), and not necessarily asking for answers.
     
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  6. Polaris8

    Polaris8 Senior Member

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    Native Son,

    In theory this is a nice idea and one to strive for sure. And I believe in some ways when the soul reaches a certain level of spiritual awareness over many lifetimes one naturally tends to become less material naturally simply because the soul realizes this is all illusion anyway and that life here is only temporary and fleeting. So the soul strides for more enriching inner experiences which will cause inner growth and unfoldment rather than the fleeting glimmer of material possessions and power over others ect.. Simply because it is aware now of the bigger picture. Once enlightenment occurs within the soul then the need to incarnate into the physicals world has ended. The soul then cycles off the wheel of birth and death and takes a more permanent residents within the higher dimensions.

    However even if scientific evidence where found to prove the processes of reincarnation exists this still would not change the majority of human behavior overall. The reason being and this is not only my opinion but actually information ones will realize along the path towards enlightenment is that this physical reality and its true purposes is a training ground for the soul so that is may know itself by it's own experiences. So it was never meant to be a permanent place for soul to reside in anyway. It is structures so that the nature of duality is at its most strongest expression in terms of matter, energy, time and space. Soul will spends thousands and thousands of life times here before it reaches a state where it is ready to cycle off the wheel of reincarnation.

    This dimensions is the lowest or densest in a series of planes or dimensions of existence within the universes. In fact we are at the bottom of creation in terms of vibrationally frequency's of dimensions. The human consciousness is tied into the lower ego and locked into the five senses of the body where souls awareness is for the most part very limited in term of awareness of reality. This is why it take soul many, many lifetimes to unfold and evolve beyond this Maya of reality of the Pinda Lok (physical world). The higher in dimensions one goes the closer one becomes to the true center of pure reality or what man terms as god. However the reason the soul comes here is because this is where the bulk of spiritual unfoldment and growth occurs the most. Simply because the challenges to overcome are at there highest manifestation.

    Well that's my two cents worth anyway.

    P.
     
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  7. Native Son

    Native Son Senior Member

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    How true is that old saying, "only time will tell"? When "time" is the same for everyone it will tell us all what it means to be here, in the world of shadows, the world of senses. The word "time" for me always reminds me of several musical songs which use that word in the lyrics, but above all, time makes me recall what Plato wrote in his Timaeus.

    Time, then, and the heaven came into being at the same instant in order
    that, having been created together, if ever there was to be a dissolution of them,
    they might be dissolved together. It was framed after the pattern of the eternal
    nature, that it might resemble this as far as was possible; for the pattern exists
    from eternity, and the created heaven has been, and is, and will be, in all time.
    Such was the mind and thought of God in the creation of time.

     
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  8. Native Son

    Native Son Senior Member

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    What if, what if, what if...it's a rhetorical if. An "if" here and an "if" there can make an "if" different. If it is an "if" as used in a proposition to makes us wonder what the truth is, then it's different from an "if" used as a proposition to make us doubt if there is any "wonder" of truth. And wondering if you are not necessarily asking for answers, then, necessarily these ifs are not meant to answer, necessarily. These ifs are an expression of my short and incomplete rhetorical point of view on reincarnation being shown as a truth, beyond a shadow of a doubt to nearly all the world's population, consciously. If makes all the difference in the world. If I were a rich man, then I would not be needing to ask myself if I was a rich man, would I? I'm just a fiddler on the roof, and don't know what's going on in the barn of reality. Before I consider a puzzle as being complete, the picture must come through clearly, but not before all the pieces in the kit are used, and fit together without having resorted to the use of force to make them fit. In other words, every little detail must make perfect sense, logically. Truth is such a puzzle. Truth comes packaged with no "ifs", "ands", and "buts" pieces.

    Only God knows! None of us know the truth, and we all biddy-biddy-bum all day long! What if?

     
  9. Native Son

    Native Son Senior Member

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    And after thousands and thousands of reincarnations, we get off this wheel of reincarnation, but what, and where is this permanent place to which the soul will be going to? And what will these fortunate, higher frequency vibration, souls be doing in these higher planes? Really, our physical world is the lowest level for a soul to be at in a stovepipe arranged hierarchy? But if that is true, we are the fortunate ones, as we can only move up! As they say, the thrill of the chase is more exciting than catching the prey.

    Your two cents worth is just as valuable as my two cents. But only if the currency is the same. Old ideas, like souls, never die.
    Here is an old idea, and possibly a higher vibration standard currency than either of us is using on the idea of the soul's stovepipe hierarchy: from Plato's Phaedrus

    Of the nature of the soul, though her true form be ever a theme of large and more than mortal discourse, let me speak briefly, and in a figure. And let the figure be composite-a pair of winged horses and a charioteer. Now the winged horses and the charioteers of the gods are all of them noble and of noble descent, but those of other races are mixed; the human charioteer drives his in a pair; and one of them is noble and of noble breed, and the other is ignoble and of ignoble breed; and the driving of them of necessity gives a great deal of trouble to him. I will endeavour to explain to you in what way the mortal differs from the immortal creature. The soul in her totality has the care of inanimate being everywhere, and traverses the whole heaven in divers forms appearing--when perfect and fully winged she soars upward, and orders the whole world; whereas the imperfect soul, losing her wings and drooping in her flight at last settles on the solid ground-there, finding a home, she receives an earthly frame which appears to be self-moved, but is really moved by her power; and this composition of soul and body is called a living and mortal creature. For immortal no such union can be reasonably believed to be; although fancy, not having seen nor surely known the nature of God, may imagine an immortal creature having both a body and also a soul which are united throughout all time. Let that, however, be as God wills, and be spoken of acceptably to him. And now let us ask the reason why the soul loses her wings!

    The wing is the corporeal element which is most akin to the divine, and which by nature tends to soar aloft and carry that which gravitates downwards into the upper region, which is the habitation of the gods. The divine is beauty, wisdom, goodness, and the like; and by these the wing of the soul is nourished, and grows apace; but when fed upon evil and foulness and the opposite of good, wastes and falls away. Zeus, the mighty lord, holding the reins of a winged chariot, leads the way in heaven, ordering all and taking care of all; and there follows him the array of gods and demigods, marshalled in eleven bands; Hestia alone abides at home in the house of heaven; of the rest they who are reckoned among the princely twelve march in their appointed order. They see many blessed sights in the inner heaven, and there are many ways to and fro, along which the blessed gods are passing, every one doing his own work; he may follow who will and can, for jealousy has no place in the celestial choir. But when they go to banquet and festival, then they move up the steep to the top of the vault of heaven. The chariots of the gods in even poise, obeying the rein, glide rapidly; but the others labour, for the vicious steed goes heavily, weighing down the charioteer to the earth when his steed has not been thoroughly trained:-and this is the hour of agony and extremest conflict for the soul. For the immortals, when they are at the end of their course, go forth and stand upon the outside of heaven, and the revolution of the spheres carries them round, and they behold the things beyond. But of the heaven which is above the heavens, what earthly poet ever did or ever will sing worthily? It is such as I will describe; for I must dare to speak the truth, when truth is my theme. There abides the very being with which true knowledge is concerned; the colourless, formless, intangible essence, visible only to mind, the pilot of the soul. The divine intelligence, being nurtured upon mind and pure knowledge, and the intelligence of every soul which is capable of receiving the food proper to it, rejoices at beholding reality, and once more gazing upon truth, is replenished and made glad, until the revolution of the worlds brings her round again to the same place. In the revolution she beholds justice, and temperance, and knowledge absolute, not in the form of generation or of relation, which men call existence, but knowledge absolute in existence absolute; and beholding the other true existences in like manner, and feasting upon them, she passes down into the interior of the heavens and returns home; and there the charioteer putting up his horses at the stall, gives them ambrosia to eat and nectar to drink.

    Such is the life of the gods; but of other souls, that which follows God best and is likest to him lifts the head of the charioteer into the outer world, and is carried round in the revolution, troubled indeed by the steeds, and with difficulty beholding true being; while another only rises and falls, and sees, and again fails to see by reason of the unruliness of the steeds. The rest of the souls are also longing after the upper world and they all follow, but not being strong enough they are carried round below the surface, plunging, treading on one another, each striving to be first; and there is confusion and perspiration and the extremity of effort; and many of them are lamed or have their wings broken through the ill-driving of the charioteers; and all of them after a fruitless toil, not having attained to the mysteries of true being, go away, and feed upon opinion. The reason why the souls exhibit this exceeding eagerness to behold the plain of truth is that pasturage is found there, which is suited to the highest part of the soul; and the wing on which the soul soars is nourished with this. And there is a law of Destiny, that the soul which attains any vision of truth in company with a god is preserved from harm until the next period, and if attaining always is always unharmed. But when she is unable to follow, and fails to behold the truth, and through some ill-hap sinks beneath the double load of forgetfulness and vice, and her wings fall from her and she drops to the ground, then the law ordains that this soul shall at her first birth pass, not into any other animal, but only into man; and the soul which has seen most of truth shall come to the birth as a philosopher, or artist, or some musical and loving nature; that which has seen truth in the second degree shall be some righteous king or warrior chief; the soul which is of the third class shall be a politician, or economist, or trader; the fourth shall be lover of gymnastic toils, or a physician; the fifth shall lead the life of a prophet or hierophant; to the sixth the character of poet or some other imitative artist will be assigned; to the seventh the life of an artisan or husbandman; to the eighth that of a sophist or demagogue; to the ninth that of a tyrant-all these are states of probation, in which he who does righteously improves, and he who does unrighteously deteriorates his lot...


    "Sophia" I love you, as you are giving me good vibrations. Sophia is Greek for Wisdom.

     
  10. Native Son

    Native Son Senior Member

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    Knowing is always good, even if only a little. To have learned that we have learned little in these subjects of reality since Plato's times, is to have learned a great deal of that which we think we know. What we think we know we know little of, in truth.

    Know Thyself! We have learned little of ourselves since the time which "Know Thyself" was written above the entrance of Apollo's temple at Delphi. Perhaps if we can come to realize that to know oneself is to realize that we are, in essence, soul and not just concern ourselves with the clothes we wear (physical bodies), then we have come to know much since Plato's times. Or should I say since Socrates' times, and perhaps even further back than that? How can we still hold a place for time in our discussions when attempting to know ourselves, if we are eternal? I Am, I said, once I knew myself! For the soul there is no past and no future, but only an eternal IS.

    From Plato's Timaeus:
    First then, in my judgment, we must make a distinction and ask, What is
    that which always is and has no becoming; and what is that which is always
    becoming and never is? That which is apprehended by intelligence and reason
    is always in the same state; but that which is conceived by opinion with the
    help of sensation and without reason, is always in a process of becoming and
    perishing and never really is. Now everything that becomes or is created must of
    necessity be created by some cause, for without a cause nothing can be created.
    The work of the creator, whenever he looks to the unchangeable and fashions the
    form and nature of his work after an unchangeable pattern, must necessarily be
    made fair and perfect; but when he looks to the created only, and uses a created
    pattern, it is not fair or perfect. Was the heaven then or the world, whether
    called by this or by any other more appropriate name–assuming the name, I am
    asking a question which has to be asked at the beginning of an enquiry about
    anything–was the world, I say, always in existence and without beginning? or
    created, and had it a beginning? Created, I reply, being visible and tangible and
    having a body, and therefore sensible; and all sensible things are apprehended
    by opinion and sense and are in a process of creation and created. Now that
    which is created must, as we affirm, of necessity be created by a cause. But the

    father and maker of all this universe is past finding out; and even if we found
    him, to tell of him to all men would be impossible.


     
  11. baro-san

    baro-san Senior Member

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    Kind of what I expected ... :)
     
  12. John Tat

    John Tat Senior Registered

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    All of the above comes from the imaginations of man and continues the never ending discussions about what is really going on
     
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  13. Polaris8

    Polaris8 Senior Member

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    Native Son, Love your expression ( the thrill of the chase is more exciting than catching the prey.) to answer your question when soul is finally done with all it's lifetimes here on the physical world it will reside on one of the higher dimensions depending upon where the soul resonate most with. From the soul/causal plane and on up is where the true god worlds of pure spirit resides. Meaning there is no more karma. Time as we understand it exists as a singularity where all possible realities or outcomes in different time lines reside. It is here where the soul will decide to reincarnate back into the lower worlds of duality which are the physical, astral and mental worlds or move on up further in the true gods worlds of pure spirit which is on the soul plane and beyond.

    Some souls decide to be teachers, astral helpers, spirit guides, on the lower planes instead to aid in the spiritual development of souls that are at a younger stage of spiritual development that have yet to cycle off the wheel of rebirth. Others handle the mechanics and workings on how our physicals universe operates with planet, stars formations ect on a quantum level. They are called the silent ones and take no orders from anyone except god. From a human standpoint they seems rather cold and indifferent to mankind however their job is to make sure all runs smoothly in the lower worlds of duality. The list goes on.... In fact life on the other side of the veil is far more active and rewarding then life here in the physical dimensions simply because the soul is now free from the bonds of time, space and matter. There is no need for food, shelter from the elements, sleep, money ect.. and all other earth plane concerns. If you really want to know more about this read on line the multidimensional man by jurgen ziewe. Be prepared for a lot of text to read. However you can just read what relates to you.

    Thanks for the comments and your point of view. Enjoy. P.

    https://www.multidimensionalman.com...r_death_-_a_description_of_the_afterlife.html
     
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  14. Jaimie

    Jaimie Senior Member

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    Hi Polaris8! Sorry for jumping in like this. Love the link, have read it before too. I am just wondering if my "memories" are correct. I know we have "talked" of this before, but still I have one question...In the 1920's life I became a ghost afterwards following "my man" around. I saw all on earth as colors, I saw him in color. Then in another "memory" I realized as a medium was contacting me through a gigantic mirror with her gigantic head in (her eyes frighten me as they saw me, I don't know, she looked different from how average people's eyes, look at you) that in my surrounding it was all foggy, like the worst London fog, really, I could not tell what was in that fog but I was aware that there were other "things" that could be in there. If I was in "hell" how could I still see what was happening on Earth, still follow "my man" around like I did ? That is what I don't get. Do you know if that would have been possible ? Or was this possible because I was "in the air" between 2 worlds ? I could also create my own wedding dress and ring by using sheer will, but it says this is impossible in the lowest realm I have now read. I felt a form of coldness coming from the inside.

    /Jaimie
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020 at 7:46 AM
  15. Native Son

    Native Son Senior Member

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    It's all so true...the imaginations of man. John, it's all tit for tat, or perhaps it would be more appropriate to call it quid pro quo? You believe me, and I'll believe you.

    Is there something that we can all believe in, without a quid pro quo? Can we all believe in those ET aliens? But if they truly exist, they too must reincarnate, as reincarnation must be universally true, or not at all.

    Does anybody really know the purpose of reincarnation? Does anybody really know; how, where, and why we reincarnate? There are billions of people out there that care to differ with those of us who believe in reincarnation. And there are many believers of reincarnation that differ within our ranks. When does man's imagination end and reality begins?

    Science is less imaginative and more realistic. Why? Because it's more objective than man's subjective imagination, that's why! Science allows ALL of us to, objectively, see the same thing. And what can be more objective than a unanimous objective agreement? Seeing is believing!

    The more relative question that needs to be answered is this. Is there a higher power that wants to prove reincarnation to ALL those of us incarnate at this point in time? This is the red line! Will it be crossed? No pun intended.

    I don't mean this to be preaching of a particular religion, as reincarnation is the only thing religiously professed by me. Reincarnation itself is at the center, and is the golden thread that weaves all wordily religions into a tapestry of universal truth. There are discussions on this forum where it is asked if there is any mention of reincarnation in the Bible? I believe that the following passage is such: Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him— even those who pierced Him.

    Every eye will see Him. This Him is referring to Jesus Christ, who once shed the physical body about 2,000 years ago. If every eye will see Him, that act of seeing will be the ultimate "scientific" proof that we are all more than a mere physical body. And it's not just Jesus, as the implication of reincarnation is further corroborated when it was written that even those who pierced Him will be here, in the physical, to see Him coming back. For those who pierced him to see the coming spectacle, they must reincarnate too. It can be easily surmised, and it's rather obvious that the passage alludes to an event that all existing souls will be present, and privy to the ultimate event of universal eye witnessing of the existence of souls and their properties of indestructible immortality of eternal life.

    The ultimate moment of the eternal truth that we are, in essence, spiritual souls is also alluded to in this other passage: "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.…" What I interpret from this passage is the "universal awakening." Like a universal alarm clock sounding off, and we all awaken to the ultimate reality. The reality that we are both gods and humans. We are gods because we are immortal souls, and we are humans when in mortal physical bodies.

    We have the best of both worlds, because God is Good and the Best that can ever be. And God wants the best for all of us too, as we are His children, all. "We are not stoning You for any good work,” said the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because You, who are a man, declare Yourself to be God.” Jesus replied, “Is it not written in your Law: I have said you are gods’?


    From Plato's Timaeus:
    Let me tell you then why the creator made this world of generation.
    He was good, and the good can never have any jealousy of anything. And
    being free from jealousy, he desired that all things should be as like himself as
    they could be
    . This is in the truest sense the origin of creation and of the world,
    as we shall do well in believing on the testimony of wise men: God desired
    that all things should be good and nothing bad, so far as this was attainable...



    WE ARE ALL GOD'S CHILDREN! Bless our souls.....


     
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  16. KenJ

    KenJ Assistant Archivist and Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    This seems to be played out in this forum where it is talked about and we can learn from it. I discovered my bias of not believing teenagers that become members for associating it with the turbulence of their hormone deluge.
     
  17. baro-san

    baro-san Senior Member

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    I disagree with everything you wrote here. Isn't it amazing?
     
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  18. KenJ

    KenJ Assistant Archivist and Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I like your attitude baro-san, mild, honest, and direct.
     
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  19. baro-san

    baro-san Senior Member

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    Thank you :)
     
  20. Polaris8

    Polaris8 Senior Member

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    San Francisco
    Baro-san Good call on that one. There is a big difference between knowledge and wisdom. Also science can only go so far as our physical universe will take us. Not that its a bad thing as science does have its place in the world however it is limited by the confines of the laws of our physical dimension. Only the soul (consciousness itself ) can explore and experience the higher dimensions. Which sciences would term as subjective.

    However subjective reality is just as real as the objective one. In fact the two are linked together. When we dream we are experiencing a different reality. It is a subjective one but just as real to consciousness as our outer one. Case in point. Science can't view or observer the mind. It can study the physical brain and test it for objective signals within the neuro path ways ect….. But it can't view what the mind really is. And science does understand that there is a difference between the mind and the brain. Science can't view feelings either. They can only observer there effects they have on people outwardly. But the mind and emotions are subjective in nature and are the working of our inner world which actually resonates on a higher dimension. In fact the mind actually creates all reality in the cosmos. And sciences is beginning to understand that all there is in the cosmos is consciousness. As the Double-slit experiment has observed.

    https://explore.scimednet.org/index.php/consciousness-and-the-double-slit-experiment/

    So good call there baro-san.

    Love and peace.... P.
     

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