Is consciousness produced by the brain?

Discussion in 'SCIENTIFIC and ANECDOTAL research' started by Nightrain, Dec 19, 2011.

  1. KenJ

    KenJ Moderator Emeritus

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    I love to tell a story about Milton Erickson. He once attended a hypnotic stage-show where the hypnotist was abusive to the subject, she refused to come out of her trance, to defy his instruction. Milton was asked to intervein. He went on-stage and whispered in her ear, turned away and returned to his seat and sat down.

    After another few minutes, she miraculsly got up and walked off the stage, ignoring the hypnotist near her on-stage. Milton was later asked what he whispered in her ear. He simply asked her "when did you last use the toilet?"

    How powerful is the simple offer of a suggestion?
     
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  2. 4d4m

    4d4m 4dforum.org

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    It is powerful, particularly when in a different state of consciousness. I like that you use dowsing, I have also done it and do not believe it to be the use of power. Someday, and possibly soon, quantum physics will be able to explain why it works. The use of certain types of wood sticks is prescribed however I was shown how with straightened coat hangers. For practice I was able to find a buried water line and compare my results to a blue print drawing of the house and property. I was right on the money. Of course there's some sort of energy flow associated with the water that moves the rods to align themselves with it. It's simply science we haven't defined yet. I believe the same is true of hypnosis.
    The act of putting someone in a different state of awareness is not accomplished by pulling on their arm or swinging a pendulum before their eyes. This is the "magic" part. The slight of hand bit to give the observer something to focus on and question. The way it's done is through the exertion of power. By the correct manipulation of the subjects chi. This probably isn't being done by the man on the stage doing the exhibition.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2020
  3. KenJ

    KenJ Moderator Emeritus

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    Absolutely, IMHO, as I did as you described with coat-hanger wire as you did. My sister's first husband showed me how to do it when I was about twelve years old. I showed my daughters how to do it and some friends. I'm not understanding your statement about it not being the man on the stage.

    I read last week, that a company was moving to my "home" town that builds/sells equipment that detects pipes, wires, and voids under-ground. So, I see that the process is being both understood and manufactured.
     
  4. tanker

    tanker Senior Registered

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    The person who introduced me to dowsing (at a time I didn't believe in it, till I tried it) works for industry, dowsing on maps for sources of oil. So it seems to be taken seriously enough.
     
  5. KenJ

    KenJ Moderator Emeritus

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    That is where it turns paranormal in my opinion. Edgar Cayce did that and I have read of others. Cayce went bankrupt if I recall correctly - or did I read about it, or was it simply a memory from another time?
     
  6. 4d4m

    4d4m 4dforum.org

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    The guy on the stage is putting on the show. To put the people in a hypnotic state requires the manipulation of their energy which requires focus. Someone else in the room is doing that part, either a plant ( someone in the audience ) or this guy's guide.
     
  7. KenJ

    KenJ Moderator Emeritus

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    Woah there 4d, I think that you are carrying that too far back. Anyone can hypnotize anyone, even animals, spiders, and snakes like cobra's use hypnosis.

    Simply SOMETHING'S INTENTION OF FOCUSING ATTENTION, nothing beyond that. You can do it to yourself, so it is a matter of consciousness.
     
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  8. 4d4m

    4d4m 4dforum.org

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    Yeah that's true. But to hypnotize yourself you alter your own state of conscious through meditation. Now imagine putting someone else's mind in that state. That's not an easy thing. If you gain their cooperation somehow, say with the swinging watch, they sort of meditate themselves into that state you simply help. But what about someone who doesn't expect it or doesn't want it?
     
  9. KenJ

    KenJ Moderator Emeritus

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    I was thinking more about trees. And ocean waves that lead to relaxation and deeper thoughts, or the driving example that I started with

    Milton Erickson often hypnotized people by just shaking their hand, you can do it yourself. The next time you shake someone's hand, hold it for an extra few seconds afterward and observe.
     
  10. 4d4m

    4d4m 4dforum.org

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    lol, you know what? I might just do that.
     
  11. Learninghere123

    Learninghere123 New Member

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    I am new in this forum and I was just wondering if there is any new clues about this question. I would love to know if there is any advances in finding out if consciousness is created in the brain or is something it's been proven by science yet?

    I would like you insight into how that would affect what we believe about reincarnation.

    Thanks!!
     
  12. fireflydancing

    fireflydancing just a fly in the sky Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Welcome to the forum, Learninghere123!!
     
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  13. The Traveler

    The Traveler Senior Registered

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    personally i think consciousness mind is strickly related to physical brain and body, and unconsciousness mind to astral-mental body. i guess that the "underworld" state of mind is like a lucid dream. on my life i risked to die various time, i never experimented strickly OBE or NDE things. my mothers nothing, too. just a time, the "tunnel of light" vision, but nothing of very significative. the most i had on my life are just some visions, some lucid open eyes dreams and a lot of visions, lucid oniric dreams and hypnagogic states.
    that's all.
    so i guess that is the individual consciousness , and the universal, collective unconsciousness, but that are just my personal convitions based of my NOT-experiences about that.
    i have some prebirth memory and reminescences that i ever had, that i guess are linked to pasted life: some related to paleolithic, some other to the end of 1800, first 1900 with a jungle explorer (seems that i am strickly connected with the figure of percy fawcett, explorer of amazzonic forest disapperared into nothing searching the city of Z, also astrologically i see that his north node fall close to my sun and his sun to my imum coeli). and some other things related to middle age, but i not know if i was artisan, scholar or wizard, or all the 3 things. i just "feel" myself resonating to byzantine empire into same way, but i not know why.the character that have so strong resonating with me is a byzantine phylosopher of 500 a.D called philematio ceionio, but i not know why. it's also possible that is simply, on that case, genetical memory. about fawcett insted, is memory is perfectly upon my imum coeli, so i am connected to him into some way, seems i am connected to his "intelligent spirit", mostly of all. is also strange that fawcett had a brother that was a teosophic and a adventure tales writer, and other strange things, like the common names of his mother to my mother and of his wife with a my aunt. [​IMG]
    well, That's all.

    so i not know if the mind can truly exist without the body, but i am pretty sures that minds can be connected into some way over the space and time, maybe quanstic soul entaglement can be an explanation about "reincarnation" phenomenon.

    tha't all IMHO, however. talking scientifically, i have not sufficient data or experience for tell what's the true. just feelings and strange remembers.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020 at 3:08 PM
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  14. Speedwell

    Speedwell Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    This is the way I see things at present.

    The idea that consciousness is produced by the brain is simply a default position, taken for granted in much of the academic establishment. However, there is a history underlying how it became the default. There was an effort to separate science from religion. That in itself was a practical step. It meant - in some respects at least - that experimental observation could guide scientific thought, rather than for example, some ancient scriptures, or folk-tales and popular traditions. A fresh start with a blank page we might say.

    However, at some point, these fresh ideas started to solidify into a new belief system. Perhaps this is the human condition, to start off with great ideals and hopes. But after a while, things settle into a rhythm, a routine, what was fresh and had a sense of exploration, began to solidify into a strait-jacket, obstructing exploration.

    At least that's how I'd summarise the position of science with respect to consciousness. One where to even suggest that it might not be produced by the brain is a new heresy.

    But let's be practical. All the time, individual people are, here and there, having unusual experiences which make them question everything they have been taught. Take for example the experience related here:

    https://www.petercummingsmd.com/nde

    These things just won't stop happening. Like a thorn in the side, different people keep reporting their own experiences, some of them in prominent positions in society. Sometimes they keep quiet, for the sake of keeping their reputation or career and livelihood intact. But people are different. Not everyone remains silent. Little by little there are chinks of light appearing.

    That is, in my view, there won't be one sudden big discovery to turn the tide. Instead, lots of smaller ones, distributed across all strata of society. Lots of little events, able to be ignored if there was just one, but when there are many, over a prolonged period of time, it could cause a re-think and a rewriting of the textbooks.
     
  15. Learninghere123

    Learninghere123 New Member

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    Thank you for sharing. One question, what is IMHO?
     
  16. Learninghere123

    Learninghere123 New Member

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    I understand this position and I share it to some extent when it comes to how society and stablishments in different areas are right now, but isn't science is evidence based. It wouldn't be assumed if it hadn't been proved right?

    I don't even have my own past life memories. I am interested in the topic becuase the fact that people can verify their memories sounds very compelling to me, as in it proves that it happened as the person remembered. I cannot understand how if they are a product of our imagination they can be accurate historically and proved with data.
     
  17. Speedwell

    Speedwell Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I don't think science deals in proof. Mathematics has its proofs, but these are more abstract, based in axioms and rules from which can be demonstrated conclusions.

    Science is supposed to start with observation, then various hypotheses may be put forward to explain them. Next some predictions are made from the hypothesis, and experiments are done to see how well the predictions match the measured results. As such, science is never complete, a hypothesis only stands for a while, until something better is found and the old is superceded or discarded.

    Where does consciousness fit into all of this? Well, frankly it doesn't. Consciousness cannot be seen or touched, it cannot be measured. How then could any experiments be done and what measurements would be made? There are none.

    Realising this quandary, sometimes correlations are observed instead. A correlation is something associated with whatever it is we are trying to observe. But it would be a mistake to presume that the correlation is the cause of the phenomenon. Correlation is not causation.

    As for past lives, yes there are all sorts of verified cases where a person recalls things which are not mere fantasy or imagination, but match the real world. It's a big topic which I'm not attempting to detail here.
     
  18. Learninghere123

    Learninghere123 New Member

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    Do you remember any past lives? I'm not sure what you meant. I know PLs is a very extense topic but do you think that the fact that people can verify memories is a good proof that they were that person? I am genuinely curious about what people think about that. I would like to try and recall some PL memories myself but until then I can't really talk about it from my own point of view.
     
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  19. The Traveler

    The Traveler Senior Registered

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    sorry for late of answer, i was a lot busy.
    first off:
    is aacronym to indicate "according to the humble opinion". sometimes it is used when expressing one's own opinion, rather than a concrete fact based on solid evidence, precisely to make it clear that what is said should not be taken too seriously because, in this case, it is my subjective vision of things. it is based on my experiences, but everyone has their own. and what I say does not necessarily correspond objectively to reality. I can say that in my life I have fainted twice. the first I drowned when I was five ... and in the minutes of unconsciousness in which I was rescued I saw nothing. absolutely nothing. only nothingness and emptiness. the second concerns a collapse that I had following a bad anemia where I had to have transfusions. in that state I had no NDE or OBE, I simply couldn't stay awake, I couldn't keep my eyes open, I couldn't even think straight, process thoughts. I was in a state of total mental confusion where in my closed eyelids I saw a swirl of colored flashes, swirls and jumble, almost as if I had had a brain short. the mystical experiences of my life are all based on deja vu, reminiscent intuitions, memories and lucid dreams. I have never had experiences like OBE, NDE, apparitions, etc, so I can only give credit to people, and analyze opinions and facts. I do not deny that these phenomena may exist, but personally I am still very conflicted about the true nature of NDEs and OBEs. The point is that no one has ever really returned from death, these are people who were saved at the last minute and who had cardiorespiratory arrests or very long surgery, trauma and states of coma and near death that lasted even an hour or more. no one has ever been brought back to life within days or weeks of death by current resuscitation techniques, which are useless if they are not performed promptly. therefore these data are insufficient, there are no testimonies of 100% dead people who can describe in detail the afterlife. there is regressive hypnosis, there are the trance states of the mystics, but how can they be interpreted? if I reason coldly, having ascertained the good faith of the witnesses, I can think that they are lucid dreams, self-suggestion, altered mental states or fantasies of the unconscious. to the limit of extrasensory perceptions or contacts with other spirits, to the limit, why not? dormant and unknown powers and abilities of the human mind. but all this always concerns living subjects. Forgive my skepticism. The fact is I want to investigate these matters as objectively and logically as possible. Occam's razor means that an unlikely or metaphysical hypothesis must be considered only when all other material and physical explanations have been absolutely discarded. Same thing applies to the use of Popperian falsificationism. So I'm sorry for my skepticism. I am more than willing to accept the existence of the soul, OBE, NDE, reincarnation, etc, too, and I am delighted, but I need concrete evidence to examine.
    Yes, is for all that little testimoniance that i am too pretty that there is very much again to discover about human mind and human soul.
    at the end, is not much different respect of investigation about ufology and abduction, i'm pretty sure that's something of true about that phenomenom cause can't be wrong or crazy milions of peoples.
    If someone can provide me a nice amount of data-testimoniances i will be very pleased :3
     
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  20. The Traveler

    The Traveler Senior Registered

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    that's a very interesting point of view.
    you right too about modern science cause is a business, not research. a business with dogmas. i want to start with an open minded approach without prejudices and i am trying to search about proof and testimoniance. there are a lot of things i reading into the years, but are not again sufficient for me. i am searching mostly about:
    - scientifical research about OBE, NDE, nature of mind etc.
    - PL memories with fact checked, not just deja vu, or vision or affermations, also if i found truely fascinating my own visions.
    i am also curious about PL experience of speedwell.
    about me, i remember 4 different scenarios PL.
    1 - stone age savannah.
    2 - byzantium
    3 - jungle expericence
    4 - prebirth scene into a black space with spark lights, talking with a voice.
    about point 4 , is the most lucid for me. point 1 and 3 are memory of my childhood that i understood and elaborate after the age of 4-5 years. but i am not sure about it or if they are just my childhood imagination. also if i discovered that is really happened something about jungle stuff, studying explorators of the end of XIX centuries.
    about the point 2, is a vision-deja vu that i had listening a song some years ago, for some years i was obsessed to find information about an ancient phylosopher of byzantine age but i again i havent' found nothing.just some poor informations, i see only that really existed into the council of Nicea a noble called "philematious" that was minister of the treasury and count of the imperial harem. but that is all i discovered.

    about all the other things, are based about my astrologic studies.
     
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