Is consciousness produced by the brain?

Discussion in 'SCIENTIFIC and ANECDOTAL research' started by Nightrain, Dec 19, 2011.

  1. Speedwell

    Speedwell Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    In my opinion this is to state thing too severely. We all know what happens to a dead animal after a few days or weeks, the whole thing simply rots and decays. If we are talking about returning from the dead, there has to be some quantity of reasonableness allowed, otherwise, all one is doing is setting unreasonable conditions, and then declaring "I knew it was impossible".

    In real-life cases, there have been people dead for 18 hours or maybe longer. And then, by modern techniques, brought back to life. That seems to me to be more than long enough to fit any reasonable expectation. Here's a case of being brought back to life after six hours. That is pretty astonishing, I think we have become very casual and unexcited by what would in previous centuries been sufficient to declare a miracle:
    Briton Audrey Schoeman revived after six-hour cardiac arrest
    video: The woman brought back to life after her heart stopped for six hours


    Incidently, that was reported by the BBC, who were probably happy to do so given that the woman concerned had no memory of those six hours. In the past, the BBC was more broad-minded, but these days they tend to regard any mention of surviving death as mere belief, rather than (possible) scientific fact. However here's a BBC documentary on reincarnation from 1992:
    BBC on Remembered Previous Lives
     
  2. Learninghere123

    Learninghere123 Senior Registered

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    This is a very interestinf case. She doesn't remember anything of those 6 hours though. So it would point towards the fact that without a functioning brain there's no conscious activity? I don't understand how some people have OBE or NDE but others don't. This issue seems very complicated to me. Some cases are very impressive and then others don't report any experiences at all. I don't know why I think that if she had seen anything while being technically dead, she should recall it like others do? What do you think?
     
  3. The Traveler

    The Traveler Senior Registered

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    thanks, i watch it soon when i have a lot of free time.
    and sorry if i am a lot rude, i am only trying to have a more scientific approach about the question. nothing of persona, and i am not enrage on into bad mood :).
    i didn't knew about the cases of peoples revived after so many times! D: damns, seems that the old conception that peoples die in just few minutes is to reconsiderate.
    but
    that's is one the things that much struggling me and confuse me too.
    if really exist the after life, why "only" 30% of folks with NDE see something? why for most case there is only the void? :\
    if all folks that experiment a NDE see something, well, that is not an hypotesis but is a fact. i am pretty sure that there is something over the death, but why only few persons can see that?
     
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  4. The Traveler

    The Traveler Senior Registered

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    yes the reminescences and deja vu or the tales of little childs with strange memories and talence are too amazing for be just a child fantasy. there are so many prodigal sons that have a natural talent for do something when they have just few years...
    into my case, well, i had the strong feeling on my childhood that more that learn the things i was just reviewing old notions. considering that i have the genetical syndrome of EDS, i am interested about reincarnation because i am trying to answer to the question of what i was before this life for have now a so bad disease.
    pity that i not remember nothing of useful about that.
    :( so i am searching the answer about why childrens born with genetical disorders? if they are not genetical eredity problem or trouble caused by virus, or disease of parents, the unique explanation should be the karma, i guess.
    is the motivation cause i am doing research about that and also why i am here now to seeking knowledge.
    but honestly i not know what can be the start point.
     
  5. The Traveler

    The Traveler Senior Registered

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    @Speedwell. nice interview of ian stevenson. it was a lot of talk that i want to see him. i thank you. okay, too much cases with the same evidences and similar stories. reincarnation seems really a strong possibility.
    in alternative, some cases can be explained with possession spirit of dead child (the case of the girl assassinated).
    however i noticed two things.
    - all cases are ever of peoples died murdered or with a violence death. why people with natural death are so rare into reincarnation cases? why the common person's soul is much more rare that return on earth?
    - mostly are into indian culture or into not-occidental cultures like american native. why is so hard to find cases into occidental enviroment?
    so seems really that metempsicosis is a good explanation. but is strange that seems to happen only into certain circustamces.
    as alternative i can think to possession cases of peoples died with violence that want to continue they life, probably cause they left something to do into earth. instead of be ghosts these folks take control of the mind of new childs. but the birth mark is also increbible. seems really that souls can affect dna writing.
    most incredible is the case of dead brigant rebirth as a not-jaw guy.
    well, at least that can comfort me: on my pasted life i wasn't a brigand.
     
  6. Speedwell

    Speedwell Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    She doesn't remember anything of those 6 hours though. So it would point towards the fact that without a functioning brain there's no conscious activity?

    No, that's jumping to a conclusion which is unwarranted. She doesn't remember any of the events leading up the crisis either. So following your logic, she either did not go on the hike at all (false) or she walked the entire way in a state of unconsciousness (also false).

    Amnesia caused by various traumatic events is a well-known and established medical phenomenon. When someone has no memory of what happened during a period of time, it would be a mistake to conclude that the person had no consciousness - she clearly was conscious during the hike, but does not remember it.

    Interestingly, in cases of amnesia, sometimes the missing memory gradually returns, not all at once, but gradually or in fragments. This can be weeks or months or even longer afterwards. This does sometimes happen with NDEs too, where at first a person recalls nothing, and then much later the NDE may come to the surface.

    Personally I compare it to dream recall. Often I can be having a really vivid, intense dream, but on waking, the memory of the dream can fade within a few seconds. Yet - certainly for me, and presumably for other people too, sometimes as I'm settling down to sleep the following night, as I drift away, but before actual sleep, I may remember the dream from the previous night.

    My reference to dreams may not be comparable, because often with an NDE there is some physical circumstance which causes damage to the brain function, so that the memory may not return. How memories are stored is, like consciousness, yet another mystery. It is usually assumed that memories are stored in the brain, but that may not be the case. Perhaps the brain only acts as a key to unlock the memories stored somewhere else. These are just my ideas. But we do know, from the plentiful examples of past-life recall, that memories of that previous life cannot be stored in the long-since turned to dust brain of the deceased.

    You asked about my own situation, whether I have any past life recall. The answer is yes. I wrote a little about myself here:
    http://www.reincarnationforum.com/threads/memories-of-a-different-kind.7700/
    and another:
    http://www.reincarnationforum.com/threads/veil-of-forgetfulness.8347/
     
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  7. Learninghere123

    Learninghere123 Senior Registered

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    I didn't know people with NDEs can remember later on. I understand what you mean. I thought about it and it is jumping into conclusions to be honest.

    Thank you for sharing the link to your experience! I have no memories of my own and I have tried a regression tape but it didn't work for me. It sounds amazing that people can recognise themselves in photographs or match their memories to accurate data online. Thank you again for sharing.
     
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  8. Learninghere123

    Learninghere123 Senior Registered

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  9. The Traveler

    The Traveler Senior Registered

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    insufficient data for have a definitive response.
    PRO NDE:
    - peoples can see therselves out of body
    - peoples experiments all mostly the same kind of experiences
    - they are more lucid of the reality and the standard cosciunsness state
    - the experiences follow ever the same pattern and the same things:
    (drowning feeling, darkness, OBE, tunnel of light, visions of afterworlds, meeting with other spirits, meeting with God, examination of all life experiences).
    CONTRO NDE.
    - missing objective things observable into material / physical world. there are only the word testimoniances
    - lacking of data
    - too much unknown about brain structure and functionality.
    - missing data about how and where are stored memories into the brain, IF they are stored into the brain.
    - missing data about the origin of the consciousness
    i guess we can't know at moment. also if brain stay "active" for hours into same way after the physical death.
    that's is also my horrible and more terrible fear and scary thing: that these experience are temporaney. that they are however connected to the brain and that also afterworld experience, God vision etc, will be fall into void, oblivion and darkness after few hours, one time all brain is shut down.
    how horrible perspective...
    :(
     
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  10. The Traveler

    The Traveler Senior Registered

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    however i want to make an observation: thinking that brain can have consciousness and lucid mind, memory and obsersvarion when is without any kind of activity, is not like think that a television can show images when is shut down? despite that his neural structure can be again intact or not.
     
  11. Learninghere123

    Learninghere123 Senior Registered

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    I don't understand your last question, but thank you for pointing out those things you said in your first post. I'm not sure if everyone's experiences are the same to be honest. They seem to be very particular. Also these are very rare, peopld usually don't remember any NDEs.

    I'm not sure if the brain works after a few hourse. I think it means there's a chance of resurrection without brain damage. Apparently the brain shuts down before that.

    There isn't enough data. I'm not sure how to keep researching. There aren't any new projects that I know about.

    This one might be interesting too:

     
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  12. The Traveler

    The Traveler Senior Registered

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    @Learninghere123 i explain with google translate:
    the human brain is a large organic and biological computer, one of the most complex in nature. the great extension of the cortex, its circumvolutions, its mass and the mass-to-body weight ratio higher than that of all other animals make us the sentient beings that we are. the human mind is structured in such a way as to allow mainly associative functions between concepts and ideas. a computer uses a binary system of 1's and 0's, of on-off switches to communicate. when we turn on the computer it shows us through the monitor and its operating software what it contains inside its transistors.
    in the same way, when we are awake and clear our brain shows the same things in the form of thoughts.
    the brain cannot be turned off unlike the computer. at most you can put it on standby when you sleep and there are processes of maintenance and restoration of data and memory in progress.
    a brain in cardiac arrest is like a computer that is deprived of electricity. however, both contain their information stored inside transistors or inside neurons and synapses. my metaphor is this: can the brain have thoughts organized so logically and continuously that it causes these amazing and wonderful experiences, far more vivid and elaborate than any dream, when it is devoid of any activity? the EEGs are completely flat, even if the brain cells are still alive, they do not work anyway, there is no activity and they do not communicate with each other.
    a computer when it is off cannot transmit information to the monitor, it cannot perform operations, you cannot copy, move a file from one folder to another when the pc is off, nor use it to watch a video on youtube or listen to music.
    the brain of a person in cardiac arrest is similar to a turned off PC. so how is it possible that such a movie starts to broadcast?
     
  13. Learninghere123

    Learninghere123 Senior Registered

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    I agree with you on that. The cases are very rare and even less few of them include OBE experiences that can be proved. It would be jumping into conclusions to say that because because people experience NDEs is proof that the conscious is outside the brain. I think these are anecdotal cases and it would be great if there were more studies about them to keep investigating what they are about.
     
  14. The Traveler

    The Traveler Senior Registered

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    not so rare as you think. 30% of cardiac arrest lead to NDE, OBE or some strange experience. but can't be explained why appen only to 1 person to 3. is rare cause many folks remove these memories or simply avoid to think to it, or they are just not documented by serious research. we are again at start of scientific study about afterworld and sure will get more data with time.
     
  15. 4d4m

    4d4m Active Member

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    When people have become deceased and are between lifetimes or travel out of body (same thing really) they can still think. They no longer have a brain.
     
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  16. Cyrus

    Cyrus Senior Registered

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    You've hit the nail, buddy !

    But mind it, that when one dies, a part of him/her dies irreversibly - namely, the very part of our "Me" that was managed by the physical brain.

    We are not the same in LBL, it feels differently without our physical brain.

    The consciousness is only partially defined by the soul, there is a part stored in the physical brain, that dies along with it.

    In this way we may conclude that real hundred percent immortality does NOT exist.

    IMHO.

    Regards.
     
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  17. tanker

    tanker Senior Registered

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    I'm not sure I understand ... 'forced to?' 'done intentionally?' 'prearranged systematically?' 'inflicted on a soul once they are dead?' Who by?
     
  18. Speedwell

    Speedwell Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    The results of the first AWARE study were published in 2014.
    https://www.southampton.ac.uk/news/...ear-death-experiences-study.page#.VDa5LhaOqSo.

    The full research paper from the study is currently behind a paywall, though it was available free of charge for a while. Basically it covered the immense difficulty of the task at hand. The subjects under consideration were people who were seriously ill, the primary activity was their medical care. Gathering data for the AWARE study had to be a background task, subject to ethical considerations. In the end, only a small quantity of useful data emerged from an initial much larger group of patients.

    There was one significant result, certainly not 'anecdotal' since it was fully documented and recorded according to the strict protocols of the study. This patient was able to describe his resuscitation attempts in accurate detail, as he observed from above at the corner of the room. There were other interesting findings, not all of which found their way into the research paper, but were discussed separately or in Parnia's book.

    Dr Sam Parnia has from time to time given interviews and appeared in video discussions. One article I appreciate for its level-headed approach was published in Spiegel Online.
    https://www.spiegel.de/internationa...ection-is-a-medical-possibility-a-913075.html

    These is a book variously titled "Erasing Death" or "The Lazarus Effect" depending on country.

    Other prominent researchers in the field include Dutch cardiologist Dr Pim Van Lommel and British nurse and PhD Dr Penny Sartori. Books, articles and youtube interviews with each of them help to illuminate the subject.

    As for the AWARE study, back in 2008, addressing the United Nations, no less, Dr Sam Parnia said that he thought it would take about three years to answer the question of whether or not NDEs were an illusion or real. He also said he expected it would turn out to be an illusion, and in that case there would be no need to continue. Well, research is continuing, the follow-up study AWARE II is currently in progress.

    At the very least, the idea that NDEs are just an artefact of the brain has not been substantiated, and current indications are that these are real verifiable experiences. It is this verification, by cross-checking what a patient says they saw or heard, including reading the thoughts of those present, or observing events out of sight or at a distance which is the subject of work by both Van Lommel and Sartori as well as Parnia. Their work is well worth a study.
     
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  19. Speedwell

    Speedwell Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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  20. Learninghere123

    Learninghere123 Senior Registered

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    Thank you Speedwell. I appreciate you sending the link :)
     
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