Discussion in 'SCIENTIFIC and ANECDOTAL research' started by Nightrain, Dec 19, 2011.
That's a worth edition for just small spending, thanks for posting that here.
Dr. Peter Fenwick , a highly regarded neuropsychiatrist, also has something similar to say...
I just read this article and especially the last bit seems to explain NDEs from a natural point of view? Apparently similar effects can be induced to the brain and resemble partial seizures too.
I was just wondering if this would explain NDEs or if it's a way of explaining it away. There seems to be some research done behind it. What do you guys think?
I think that NDEs are indeed natural. Perhaps what you were getting at was whether they might be explained in materialist terms? Sorry if that sounds picky, I know there are terms like 'supernatural' and so on, but even ordinary everyday consciousness cannot be explained in materialist terms. Just having the ability to be aware, to experience. Materialist science cannot explain that. How does an atom or a molecule become aware of anything?
As for NDEs, it's important to note the veridical information obtained - acquiring knowledge during an NDE that could not be acquired through ordinary means. This in itself is a wide-ranging topic. One particular and rather narrow class of such experiences are termed 'Peak in Darien'. That is worth looking into. And remember there are other types of veridical information in NDEs too.
Bruce Greyson article link: Seeing Dead People Not Known to Have Died: “Peak in Darien” Experiences
As for the article, I didn't read every word, but it starts rather poorly, the opening text asserts that they are caused by " a loss of blood flow and oxygen". Sadly that completely overlooks the fact that NDEs can occur in a perfectly healthy, normally functioning body too. In some examples, simply having the expectation of impending harm, such as being in a vehicle and seeing that it is about to undergo a collision, can trigger an NDE, even when there is in the end no actual collision. I should really post examples and references, but for now I hope it is sufficient to mention that these do exist. After all, if one does not know something exists, one might not think to look for it. This is where articles in mainstream scientific publications often do a disservice to the reader. By omitting crucial information, an article can be made to appear coherent. These days, I don't look for what is contained in such articles, but what is missing.
clinical NDE for what i know occurs into 30% of cardiac arrests. there is not any kind of brain activity into these moments, also if doctors doing the BLS.
all folks victims of that, despite of their culture, religious belief, country, experiment ever the same kind of feelings also if not all all of these, mostly only few or one of these:
- floating outside of body, looking at what is happening around, ability to see thorught walls and be aware of all happen around. ability to refers to doctors what they had seen when they come back to live.
- the darkness with the tunnel of light.
- the revisitation of all life experiences.
- the meet with other souls or "God" into a light and beatiful place with music, or an garden eden, or simply a white energy foggy place.
- see or meet with souls of dead parents or other peoples dead and close to the victim.
- the fact that the soul, or energy entities tell that is not again the time for die etc, and they are send back.
some case experiment a grey and sad place, like the "purgatory" some other experimented instead a vision of the "hell".
the lack of oxygen or various brain affection can also explain the "tunnel of light" cause that vision can be stimulated also into artificial but not the others. that are not just simply allucination of pharmacus, for the simple fact that allucinations have not any kind of logical sense.
instead that experience have a deep logical dsense and is more lucid that the awake state of brain. peoples that experiment that change totally behavour and become much more kind and loveley. the most baddest
the most convinced atheist becomes a believer, the selfish become altruistic. many feel anger and refusal to return to the material world, so wonderful is what they have glimpsed.
there is also the fact there is not any kind of brain area that
be the seat of consciousness or memory. it seems that these phenomena reside outside the brain and that the brain is a kind of transceiver of them. basically, it is as if in material life we control the body remotely using it as an earthly avatar. on the other hand, since we have control of the body in this sense, we have the illusion of being inside our head.
these last things I am saying, however, are hypotheses, personally I have never read scientific studies that verify them. there may be other explanations for NDEs, but I don't know of.
Brain cells need some hours to die also after physioligical death.
the materialistic explanaion is simply that "mind" is the effect of collective team work of neuron cells. but if is on that why, why a
a brain expecting a cardiac arrest, which as such could not expect any form of mentality or consciousness, expriment with the NDE?
Yes, this is true. Dr Sam Parnia has talked and written extensively about that. It should be understood that what this refers to is the ability of a person to be successfully resuscitated after a cardiac arrest. It doesn't mean the brain is active or 'alive' as a whole. For example a person may be caught in a snowstorm or fall into icy water. Under these conditions, as well as the stopping of the heart, all biological functions come to a halt, there is no brain activity. But the individual brain cells are preserved by the cold temperature, just as we preserve food in a fridge. At normal temperatures, the cells begin to die and decay more rapidly.
Exactly, you explained that much more better then me
another nice analogy is a computer.
when you shut down the computer it contains however into the hard disk alls the data and broadcard intacts, but you cannot see informations into monitor if you not switch on your pc. so...
why folks on NDE continue to have their monitor and mind active, if their "hard disk" is switch off?
So, well folks experiments NDE when brain is shut down. how is possible if mind is a product of the brain activity? the unique explanation are 2:
1 - Mind is not a product of brain, and is stored else where.
2 - Mind transfer itself into istant way to another destination if happen a shut down of host body.
I'm not familiar with cases in which people report being aware of things really happening around them while they're unconcious. I read that Sam Parnia did a test putting images high up in the ceiling and people reporting NDEs didn't seen them when they woke up afterwards. Am I wrong?
I understand that it's a difficult topic to prove, but I guess the very low incidence of remarkable cases is very disencoraging. Most of the NDEs that I read about sound like dreams or hallucinations to me, but that's just my opinion. I guess the peak Darien could be a good way to prove them, but those patientes could have heard nurses or other patients talking about these other deceased people and incorporate it to their dreaming, and then report it as a vision of a deceased person. I find it all very confusing to be honest.
I appreciate your input! Thank you both
On a technicality you are correct. However, of the small number of patients who survived cardiac arrest and were willing and able to be interviewed, none had an NDE while they were in a location where there were any pictures. For example a patient might have been in a corridor, or travelling in an ambulance, or some other part of the hospital at the time. When they described their surroundings, they could not be expected to mention the pictures, because there were none to be seen.
On the other hand one patient in particular described the process of his rescuscitation in detail, as he observed it from above, at a time when his heart was not beating and there was not enough blood flow to the brain to enable consciousness. This case was included in the official report of the AWARE study.
Another patient actually read the private thoughts taking place in the mind of one of the doctors who was treating him at the time. That one was not mentioned in the official report, which had a narrow scope, but Dr Sam Parnia has described it elsewhere. It is really worth reading Parnia's book if you'd like a deeper knowledge of the background, I think I've given details in a previous post.
Also, when you say "I'm not familiar with cases in which people report being aware of things really happening around them while they're unconcious. " there was a book I previously pointed to, containing over a hundred such cases.
I'm getting the feeling this topic doesn't really interest you very much since you haven't followed up on previous information.
Oh not at all! I am interested in the topic and followed all the links you sent and I really appreciate you sending them, Speedwell. Unfortunately, I have not been able to buy the books you've mentioned yet. I usually look for information on the Internet because I'm on a budget to be honest.
Thanks for elaborating on the technicality that you mentioned. I didn't know that was the reason why the images on the wall didn't work. I'll keep researching for sure and I hope you are still open to share your knowledge in this topic
I do agree with this too. Nice comprehension.
Separate names with a comma.