Is Reincarnation Real?

Discussion in 'SCIENTIFIC and ANECDOTAL research' started by fiziwig, Feb 23, 2003.

  1. Native Son

    Native Son Active Member

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    Since you seem to be a Joni Mitchell fan, I figure I should respond to your request. Quickly I'll share my opinion that Joni is a Platonist, or better still, a Neo-Platonist, since I sense the mysticism in the artistic expression of her music. Take, in this case, as point in question for this thread, her song; Both Sides Now, and her album, Clouds. Carefully taking into perspective much of the posts on this thread, and then considering the lyrics of Both Sides Now, a keen mind should be able to see the connection and how they cover the discussion here. And we need to keep in mind the term "Clouds," both for the lyrics of the song, and also for the title of the Album, and place it along side with an ancient Greek comedy; Aristophanes' Clouds. Although Joni gave the public a different take for her inspiration on the song, if one were to press her, I think that she would reveal her inspiration came from Socrates' take on reincarnation, the spiritual world, and both sides merely allude to the physical and the spiritual world of Plato's Cave Allegory. And her conclusion was that she really does not know, either life, or love, or reality, in general, although she thought she did when merely looking at it from only one side, the physical.

    Rows and flows of angel hair
    And ice cream castles in the air
    And feather canyons everywhere
    I've looked at clouds that way

    But now they only block the sun
    They rain and snow on everyone
    So many things I would have done
    But clouds got in my way
    I've looked at clouds from both sides now

    From up and down, and still somehow
    It's cloud illusions I recall
    I really don't know clouds at all
    Moons and Junes and Ferris wheels
    The dizzy dancing way you feel
    As every fairy tale comes real
    I've looked at love that way

    But now it's just another show
    You leave 'em laughing when you go
    And if you care, don't let them know
    Don't give yourself away
    I've looked at love from both sides now
    From give and take, and still somehow
    It's love's illusions I recall
    I really don't know love at all

    Tears and fears and feeling proud
    To say "I love you" right out loud
    Dreams and schemes and circus crowds
    I've looked at life that way
    But now old friends are acting strange
    They shake their heads, they say I've changed
    Well something's lost, but something's gained
    In living every day

    I've looked at life from both sides now
    From win and lose and still somehow
    It's life's illusions I recall
    I really don't know life at all
    I've looked at life from both sides now
    From up and down and still somehow
    It's life's illusions I recall
    I really don't know life at all.



    Without seeming rude or completely disregarding any plausibility to what some are claiming here, especially by Dking 777, everyone expressing their paranormal "experiences" are mainly taken as truth on the basis of the claimant, without any reflection and constructive criticism. What I note is that everyone seems to have an unspoken code; you accept my experiences and I will accept yours, no questions asked. Well nearly no questions, as one or two here have raised some very polite-put expressions of doubt. Now, considering that there are few on this forum bragging about logic and how it is applied by them, I fail to see this logic being applied to the head-question; what is reality? Reality cannot be subjective, as related by perceived personal experiences, at least for those that are not a result of self-delusion, or just "daydreaming" accounts, or possibly even hoaxes. Reality is objective, and the standard, if one can can be applied, has to be objective, and one consistent with repeatability/reproduceability.
     
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  2. KenJ

    KenJ Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I know, and understand what you are saying in your response to my prior post, the part that you left out was your motivation in demeaning other peoples "game" by the nature of your posts. Do you have a point beyond your admiration of ancient dialogues?

    There are "Truths" being told in other civilizations other then the Mediterranean, why have you limited your interest?
     
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  3. tanguerra

    tanguerra Senior Registered

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    Neither do I. But exploration is fun. Isn't it?

     
  4. tanguerra

    tanguerra Senior Registered

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    Correct. We assume that people willing to share their experiences are not trying to trick anyone, but simply to find a safe and, indeed, welcoming place to talk about sometimes very heartfelt, personal, sometimes upsetting experiences. These experiences usually don't feature unicorns. Hardly ever even any mermaids. ~

    That's life.

    T.
     
  5. baro-san

    baro-san Senior Member

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    (1) "constructive criticism" seems an oxymoron, one of the brainless children of political correctness (in my opinion)
    (2) "reality" is perceived only through our senses, so inherently can be only subjective; my reality differs from your reality
     
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  6. Native Son

    Native Son Active Member

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    Ken.....Apparently I must have said something that has been misinterpreted, as I was not able to post for a couple of days. By peoples' "games" I was referring to our current physical existence, which meant to encompass all, and not referring to the experiences of those posting here on the forum, regarding their subjective feelings of recalling flashes or more in- depth memories of perceived previous past lives. Although I also expressed my opinion as to why, in the last 30 years or so, there has been a very significant increase of claims for past-life remembrance. Additionally, I started to use musical items, as I had noted that some were expressing some of their sentiments by referencing certain songs, which, obviously, to them, these artists were expressing some obvious, or not so obvious, belief about the afterlife. But it should be clear that just because I expressed my opinion as to be incredulous of certain claims, as I also noted others here to have expressed, I was not intending to demean anyone or any thing. I believe that Mrs. Bowman is wanting to show that her work has scientific roots and a base for objective evidence, even if it is, mostly, dealing with personal subjective experiences. I have also expressed my own strong belief in the immortality of the soul, and its reincarnation process, although my faith in this universal truth comes from a different source than most of the posters here, I think! And my point is not merely my admiration of "ancient dialogues", but the point is that these ancient dialogues are as current as anything we have today, or rather, more current, as the truth they contain cannot be but always current, as truth never falls out of fashion. And without seeming rude, as I had previously expressed, a better understanding of Plato/Socrates would not have had you pose to me that question of why I have limited my interest in the civilizations of the Mediterranean Sea basin. Plato's work brought Eastern and Western thought together, and made each better. Additionally, again, without seeming rude, You have no familiarity with that which I have or not have limited myself, and therefore you cannot assume this, just because I have, exclusively, presented my opinions by referencing some excerpts from Plato's dialogues.

    And of "Truths" there is only one set, and God only knows them, whether Eastern, Western, Northern, Southern, or any other cardinal coordinate in-between. Absolute Truth belongs only to the First cause of all, our Creator, the Absolute Good.

    Best regards
     
  7. Native Son

    Native Son Active Member

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    Tangurerra....I had posted a two part post to provide an answer to your questions, however, I do not know what happened to the second part, as it does not show. I can assume that perhaps some of the content was deemed not worthy of being posted. I cannot understand why, if that was the reason, as I do not believe to have written anything to prevent posting, but I will leave it that, as you may have a better clue, since you are an administrator on this forum. If anything, I apologize for that which may have been deemed as such. But I also noted that the first part was slightly edited, but only by having added a link to Joni's song, of which I had only posted the lyrics, if I'm recalling correctly.
     
  8. Native Son

    Native Son Active Member

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    How do you weigh and consider someones' else reality, which differs from yours? Taking Bacon's words partially, and at face value, puts you at enmity with your own personal reality. It definitely puts you at enmity with my reality, and by definition and understanding, with everyone else who do not see the same things you do.

    Age appears to be best in four things; old wood best to burn, old wine to drink, old friends to trust, and old authors to read.
    “Man prefers to believe what he prefers to be true.”
    Francis Bacon
     
  9. crobar

    crobar New Member

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    I'm a long-time Spiritualist who does not need to be persuaded that we may reincarnate if we choose and perhaps many or all of us do exactly that. I've noticed, though, that the ideas that underpin my modest understanding of life, death and what follows seem to have less appeal than they once used to have. Perhaps coincidentally there appears a developing interest in NDEs and past lives, the latter naturally linked to the subject of reincarnation.

    I'm wondering if the increasing interest in such issues is becoming a way that new generations look for their own understanding of life, death and what comes next? Perhaps everyone here already knows what I'm asking and if so I apologise for asking the questions.
     
  10. KenJ

    KenJ Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Native Son, I feel that I probably owe you an apology. I “heard”, in your post, the voice of a classmate who boisterously proclaimed his version of reality as superior to others. Your more recent messages seem to be above that. Indeed, the words of Socrates are as relevant today as they were in 400 BC. The expression, and debate, of philosophical ideas is certainly acceptable. My concern was that the Forum’s purpose and Guidelines were not being recognized.

    The second thing to apologize for is my lack of welcoming you to the Forum, so – Welcome to the forum Native Son, I look forward to hearing about your experiences and understandings related to reincarnation, parapsychology, and other areas of interest related to the various areas of the Forum.

    As for Plato’s writings, I read some in the 1950’s and again in the 1970’s when I was trying to get my life back together. The thoughts are good things for the “head”, but lack much for the “heart” in my opinion. It could be that the discussion was beyond my “pay-grade” in some respects. My reference to your inclusions of Mediterranean thinking was directed toward the head/heart differences as follows.

    “The truth is not always beautiful, nor beautiful words the truth.”
    ― Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

    “So the unwanting soul sees what's hidden,
    and the ever-wanting soul sees only what it wants.”
    ― Lao Tzu

    and

    Humankind has not woven the web of life.
    We are but one thread within it.
    Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves.
    All things are bound together. All things connect.
    - Chief Seattle

    There is no death, only a change of worlds.
    - Chief Seattle
     
  11. fireflydancing

    fireflydancing just a fly in the sky Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Hi Crobar,
    I think the main reason for the increasing general interest in reincarnation is because of modern technology and most of all: the internet. I knew about reincarnation in the era before the internet, but it limited itself to reading some books and visiting some meetings. Nowadays it is so easy (and cheap) to collect information. It is so easy to talk with people about this subject online. It's easier to get some sort of confirmation very quickly. Increasing interest is just a natural thing to happen. During my life I I heard several stories first hand from all kinds of people but they fell back in memory over time. Now I can compare and share those stories thanks to Mr. Google and websites and forums.
     
  12. crobar

    crobar New Member

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    I'm sure you're right about the ease of finding information on the web and easy communication with others sharing an interest. Beyond that, though, where do our net-enabled friends find information that extends their knowledge beyond the simplicity of incarnation indeed being an authentic, perhaps demonstrable, notion?

    Acknowledging and accepting that we have had at least one previous incarnate life may be a profound revelation but to understand WHY we do, why we did, why we will again in the future is another issue, wouldn't you agree? I'm trying to figure what others do learn about such an issue compared with what I did.

    Or is an interest in finding out about their previous lives largely all they wish to know about, I wonder.
     
  13. tanguerra

    tanguerra Senior Registered

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    Hi Native Son

    There was some discussions among the moderators as to whether the thread had gone 'off topic' and was becoming a bit heated. Sometimes the best thing is a time out for review.

    We love lively discussions, as long as they are respectful, on-topic and done in a spirit of discussion rather than dissertation. It is easy to get a bit carried away sometimes. We all do it.

    Enjoy the forum (not toooo much).

    T.
     
  14. Native Son

    Native Son Active Member

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    Thanks for the explanation. I'm one to follow rules, especially when explained to me. I would appreciate being told when I am not aware of being in violation, as I don't mean to, intentionally.
    Also I realize that I am overly zealous when it comes to Plato/Socrates, in relation to the immortality of the soul, and the reincarnation process. And yes, I did get carried away....my apologis to all concerned.

    And I am sure to enjoy this forum, otherwise I would not be still loitering about.

    Best regards,
     
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