Karma is not Punishment

Discussion in 'Reincarnation Questions' started by Deborah, May 19, 2006.

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Karma is not Punishment

  1. Do you think you have to experience everything to grow?

    4 vote(s)
    36.4%
  2. Do you think your consciousness has a choice?

    7 vote(s)
    63.6%
  3. Do you think evil is a must in order to learn love?

    1 vote(s)
    9.1%
  4. Do you think you are suffering because you were once a bad person?

    2 vote(s)
    18.2%
  5. Do you think everything is pre-planned?

    2 vote(s)
    18.2%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Charles Stuart

    Charles Stuart Probationary

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    Hi again, John.

    Regarding the person you mentioned against whom you held a grudge and apparently made him suffer, this is precisely the kind of situation I am referring to. YOU imposed a balancing of negative karma upon this person. However, if he had made a right choice using his free will, he could have avoided this.

    But, I still see it that we do not have the right to do so. It is not whithin OUR right to impose pain upon another, for in this way we can be perpetuating a karmic cycle. The breaking free from such situations is by forgiving, something we should all aim at and strive to achieve...:thumbsup: : angel
     
  2. Hammy

    Hammy Senior Registered

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    I personaly think that we tie our selves up in useless knotts trying to decide if karma is real, if it works in this way, or if it works in that way. All this does is show me that we have no idea. Basicaly I believe that if we do wrong we get punished, maybe by ourselves maybe by others or maybe by the creator, who I call God.
    I do not believe we automaticaly carry forward any 'bad karma' or sin or whatever you wish to call it, into any other life. Not never, just not automaticaly, I see no point, unless one is fully concious of the fact and is therefore able to learn.
    This thread also brings up, once again, the subject of pre-planning. As I have posted before, I do think there may be some minor planning and that could lead to greater things. But anything major just does not make sense to me at all. Without going into the whole thing yet again, I feel that major pre-planning has far too many holes in it as a theory. Also, and this is the scariest part for me, pre-planning can be used as a cover for a great deal of evil. Such as 'I raped and murderd that child because we planned it'. Sorry I do not buy it.
    Maybe a link could be found to these type of discussions? lol
    Hammy.
     
  3. tiltjlp

    tiltjlp A Recycled Soul

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    It was on an unrelated forum, and the other fellow was far from an innocent victim. While I was much worse behaved than he was, we did entertain most onlookers for several days. My pot shots seemed to bother him much more than his bothered me, and I took absolute delight in that.

    John
     
  4. glyph

    glyph New Member

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    very interesting Deborah... I think about this alot. I agree with two of the choices readily. I picked "We have to experience to grow" and agree with "evil is a must in order to learn to love."

    I think we contract to live our lives. To experience different things. From different views. It just rings true in me. So, in that, I ask myself, "Where does that put Jeffrey Dahmer in this mix?" Was he Evil through and through? Was he turned off? or is he playing out the other side... and growing? Was he necessary? Did his victims contract for their lives (and deaths)? Did it all flow together like the Universe always does? and can't help but think "Yes."

    EDIT: But, I don't really believe in Evil either. As an embodiment. There are forces at work here, created by us, but on the higher levels I don't see it.
     
  5. Charles Stuart

    Charles Stuart Probationary

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    Hi Hammy,

    Yes, I agree with what you say. Perhaps certain major events and "tendencies" are pre-determined, but if "everything" were pre-determined, where would this leave "free will"? We would be just like robots with no power to decide, living in a rigid pre-molded reality...
     
  6. MATT

    MATT New Member

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    Charles /Hammy
    I don't think anyone has said or implied on this thread that everything at soul level is completely preplanned .Only the key parameters are planned. Would one embark on a journey of learning based on a kneejerk reaction only . There is an old saying that if you don't know where youare going , then any road will get you there .In my opinion it is more like a baseball game . You plan your game ,who is the opposing team, place , date ,umpires , key players and a game strategy. No one knows how the game will turn out or what wonderful experiences,plays and lessons come from it. From time to time you get together and plan a bigger game like play offs and world series.
     
  7. Phoenix

    Phoenix Forgot to play nice

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    Charles, your conclusion is based upon accepting what this individual said as being true. And that is where the logic falls apart. Because it's based upon accepting your particular religious faith as fact.

    And not everyone does.

    Actually, what I was trying to point out, Charles, is that what it does is make people feel that there is some sense and purpose to a senseless tragedy.

    There's a big difference.

    Phoenix
     
  8. Hammy

    Hammy Senior Registered

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    "Charles /Hammy
    I don't think anyone has said or implied on this thread that everything at soul level is completely preplanned .Only the key parameters are planned. Would one embark on a journey of learning based on a kneejerk reaction only . There is an old saying that if you don't know where youare going , then any road will get you there .In my opinion it is more like a baseball game . You plan your game ,who is the opposing team, place , date ,umpires , key players and a game strategy. No one knows how the game will turn out or what wonderful experiences,plays and lessons come from it. From time to time you get together and plan a bigger game like play offs and world series."


    Hi Matt,
    I did not say anyone implied on this thread that everything is pre-planned, I was going also on past threads that many here took part in. We go round in circles.

    Without restating everything I have said in the past about pre-planning and why I do not believe there is any, apart from, maybe, small amounts, I will ask the following:

    If, as you say, we choose things to happen so we can learn, then what is the point of not remembering everything we chose, fully? Or more probably, at all?
    If we choose things to happen in order to learn, then we must already have found the answers to our questions before be were re-born. Otherwise how would we know what we needed to learn?
    Another analogy I have used before: Why take an exam if we have purposely made ourselves forget all the answers? What kind of waste of life is that?
    Surely we could 'learn' more if we were fully prepared and we surley would get more from our lives because we wouldn't need to waste time trying to recall things we had forgotten, indeed do not know anything about, and could therefore use our lives to gain even more learning experiences?

    The variables involved in any form of pre-planning are endless. The whole thing does not really hold water, in my opinion.

    That'll do for now,
    Regards all,
    Hammy.
     
  9. Charles Stuart

    Charles Stuart Probationary

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    Hi Matt,

    I also loved your analogy and think it is dead on track...:thumbsup: :)

    Phoenix,

    We have had these discussions here before. If I share something that is of my own personal experience, something I have personally learned from experience, I can take it as my own truth, my own conclusion, and I may share it for the sake of those who might benefit from it. This, of course, does not mean that everyone or even anyone has to agree with what I have written. It is not my intention to preach or claim that "I know what's right"... I have my own beliefs and understanding, yes, but what I am doing here is "sharing" them, not stating them... I can even argument in defense of my conclusions, hoping to do so in a logical way...

    Here in Brazil, Chico Xavier is reknown for having handed out evidence upon evidence of the existance of spirituality, but still many choose and chose not to believe. His life was an example to many. He published dozens of psychographed books that sold by the thousands and never took a penny from them. Instead he chose to hand all the proceeds to charity as, in his words, he "could not receive from what was not his own work". He opened orphanages, arranged meals for the poor and starving, and in all, his life was, to me, a wonderful example (he passed away a couple of years ago).

    Hi Hammy,

    I believe the purpose behind our "not remembering" is because we have to "experience emotionally" that which we must learn. Otherwise we would not have to incarnate, but just sit in front of a teacher in a classroom who would then simply explain or "teach us" what we needed to know. Just as in life, I believe the "experience", however, is fundamental.

    As for pre-planning, it is my own personal view that we do not hold all the answers. If so, it would be as you say. It is for this reason that, according to my own belief and the belief of many, we are "guided" in our previous choices by Spiritual Guides who have already experienced, learned and therefore already "ascended" more...
     
  10. Hammy

    Hammy Senior Registered

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    Just a thought: Would it not be best to learn about and experience something that we truly know nothing about, rather than learn or experience something to which we already have pre-knowledge of?
    By learning from and experiencing something completely new, are we not gaining, and therefore growing, more?
    Just a thought :)
    Hammy.
     
  11. Charles Stuart

    Charles Stuart Probationary

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    Hi Hammy,

    Yes, but the point is: we all know we should not kill, and yet many do. We all know we should not steal, and yet many do. We all know we should not envy or hold rage, and yet...:rolleyes:

    We are far from being perfect. Perhaps this is the purpose: to improve, to become better, to become more "purified"...: angel
     
  12. Hammy

    Hammy Senior Registered

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    Hi Charles,
    ONE of my main points is that such a way of learning is hardly a good use of any life. Much more could be learned without doing in so in the ways stated. Which is ONE of the reasons I do not believe in pre-planning on any major scale.
    Regards,
    Hammy.
     
  13. Deborah

    Deborah Executive Director Staff Member

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  14. Citsym

    Citsym New Member

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    Who measures the requirement?

    Quote: only a requirement that you experience all that you create. Ailish...

    In all the "knowing" and reading I have done, I find that the requirement to experience "all that we have created" is a rule devised by the "old gods" and is a rule that allows them to look back thru all our lives and say "well they fell short there, so they need to re-pay that wrong action...hence what we call Karma, and this is heaped up to the point that you and I never get free.

    We are in fact in slavery, though most are blind to this fact.

    Of course, in the world we live in, veiled to higher dimensions, we forever fall short, and end up in a catch 22 situation, and the old gods demand retribution.

    Its this authority that I want to see ended...

    However loving and peaceful we feel, however in control we think we are, I can honestly say, our minds are so layered with incorrect thinking, we are prisoners to other beings thinking..and they are the wrong beings to be on side with.

    Do you ever wonder about reincarnation, and why it happens?

    When you learn and overcome the limitations of this belief system, you will no longer need to be reincarnated...no more lessons!!!

    This of course is what we are seeking...
     
  15. Susie

    Susie Dreamer-former moderator

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    Hi Citsym,

    Could you please provide written sources, especially regarding what an old god is, the rule devised by old Gods and what it allows? It has been my experience that we all have "knowing." :)
    Again- written sources please. Doesn't it make sense that the only god, old or new, is the god of our perception and understanding? I believe god/spirit/universe is within and that there is nobody "out there" judging us.
    But, we can change our own thinking at any time if we so choose. Please clarify who these other "beings" are. Consciousness creates in there here and now.
    What belief system are you referring to?
     
  16. Deborah

    Deborah Executive Director Staff Member

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    HI Citsym; mystic

    Facts are funny things. ;) I use to teach art history; what I learned was that there are no plain facts in the history, only degrees of plausibility. Every statement no matter how fully documented -- is subject to doubt, and remains a fact only as long as no one questions it.

    Every condition that lays as a fact in history is temporary, and the field is too vast for anyone to encompass all of it with equal competence. I imagine, our understanding of Karma, God(s) and spirituality is also temporary, all we really have are degrees of plausibility. That and a personal point of view.

    From my point of view -I am not in slavery, what is in my life - I myself created. I am responsible. I like to joke around with a friend of mine sometimes, suggesting that; I am the master of my own universe. : angel Which -I am. :)
     
  17. Ailish

    Ailish Administrator Emerita

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    Hi citsym,

    I completely disagree. One must take responsibility for their present situation – understand that they indeed have the power to create positive change – and stop blaming “karma” on certain life situations. In my opinion -- it’s an easy out to say “I have a miserable life now because of karma – and there is nothing I can do to change it.” The only person capable of inciting that change within – is you. No one else can do it for you.

    Both negative and positive actions create reactions. That statement does not mean someone is sitting their judging us and doling out the punishment for each perceived “mistake.” It simply means -- whatever we persistently hold in our mind will surely manifest in our lives. Like energies attract.

    So -- if we continually obsess over problems, stirring them around, wringing our hands, bemoaning them, resenting them, blaming others and fearing them -- we have held those problems in consciousness and those problems will remain energized and continue to materialize, expand and worsen in our present and future lives.

    Consciousness and limitation are intimately related; limited consciousness creates limited reality; unlimited consciousness creates unlimited reality.

    Consciousness is the manifestation of Pure Being. Consciousness creates the world in which we live and have our being. Just like a mirror, consciousness reflects things on its own surface. Our “role” as individuals is to allow consciousness to reflect itself through us…

    Consciousness is ultimately who we choose to be. It starts with what we think about all day (lack, anxiety, anger or abundance, peace, joy) and translates directly to our experience of life. Our health, relationships, sense of fulfilment, everything is determined by it. An individual's state of consciousness will determine if that individual is joyous, abundant, peaceful or angry, lacking and anxious.

    The consciousness of the mass or majority of a population can significantly influence the consciousness of individuals. On the earth, "mass consciousness" is focused on scarcity (or lack) anxiety and conflict - more so than on the more enjoyable alternatives. In other words if everybody else is choosing to be angry, lacking or anxious around you -- it is very easy to be influenced by the sentiments of mass consciousness. And so, the "practical translation" of these same emotions is what shows up in the majority of peoples' lives (i.e. anger, anxiety, lack, etc).

    The benefits of raising consciousness (of individuals and of the collective humanity) is that Peace, Prosperity and Joy become the predominant reality on the planet. There are many people who successfully live lives of joy, abundance, peace, every day - simply by consciously choosing to!!

    The act of choosing consciously with positive intent creates positive situations in this life – and sets up for positive situations in the next.

    Ailish
     
  18. tiltjlp

    tiltjlp A Recycled Soul

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    I couldn't disagree more. Each of us is free to consider endless opinions and ideas, and if they feel right to us, we can then adopt them as Fact. No one is spiritually standing over my shoulder to make sure that I Believe any certain doctrine. If a person honestly believes that they have "incorrect thinking" and they don't do anything to change that, I not only pity them, I worry about them.

    Reality is whatever you perceive it to be. So simply perceive a different reality.

    John
     
  19. Charles Stuart

    Charles Stuart Probationary

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    Hi everyone,

    Based on my own experience, I wouldn't instantly knock off the concept of the "Old Gods". They are very much an active part in the concepts held by the line of African origin here in Brazil known as Candomblé, and have clear associations with the Egyptian, Greek and Nordic myths of their "gods"...:cool
     
  20. Ailish

    Ailish Administrator Emerita

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    Hiya Charles,

    Most systems of myths have an explanation for the origin of the Universe and its components.

    Granted, I know very little about the rituals or origins of Candomblé, but when you look at myths from other places -- they do give importance to their gods/goddesses -- but there are also many, many differences in the telling of these stories regarding the origins of creation -- and the reasons for human suffering. There is always some sort of choice involved.

    The idea of gods judging humans and inflicting karma upon them -- simply doesn't work for me. Many myths site a god as being the reason the earth is not a paradise. So, in my opinion -- it doesn't make sense that a human be made to suffer for the wrong-doings of a "god."

    There are always consequences for our actions and our reactions -- but ultimately we choose how to act/react. Choose anger -- you will draw anger and negativity towards you. Choose to react in love and compassion -- and it will be reflected back towards you.

    I do like these stories -- in fact I enjoy reading them very much, but to me they are just stories. I believe the Universe is One -- and we are all part of it -- we are all connected.

    Therefore, everything we need to be happy, fulfilled and knowledgeable is already inside of us. We just need to remember how to use what we've already got. ;)

    Ailish
     

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