Karma is not Punishment

Discussion in 'Reincarnation Questions' started by Deborah, May 19, 2006.

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Karma is not Punishment

  1. Do you think you have to experience everything to grow?

    4 vote(s)
    36.4%
  2. Do you think your consciousness has a choice?

    7 vote(s)
    63.6%
  3. Do you think evil is a must in order to learn love?

    1 vote(s)
    9.1%
  4. Do you think you are suffering because you were once a bad person?

    2 vote(s)
    18.2%
  5. Do you think everything is pre-planned?

    2 vote(s)
    18.2%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. tanguerra

    tanguerra Senior Registered

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    Ailish and Chrissie, you are both right! The future is both fixed and up to us to make of it what we will by our choices and the exercise of our free will.

    The whole time thing can be very confusing, because we view it too simply. We are seeing something which is vast and complex from an ant's eye perspective, so it is no wonder we get a bit baffled sometimes. We perceive time as a long skinny line when actually it is not.

    I imagine it this way - time is ever branching out before us like the branches of a huge tree, with many forks and divides. Depending on the decisions we make and therefore the direction we choose to take, we might end up in a very different place. Whether to get up in the morning or not, run across the street against the traffic lights, give some money to a beggar, wear a red dress to a party....

    Time is always there, it does not move or go anywhere - just as the tree is just there. The possible futures are all 'there' existing in the eternities of the space-time continuum. But (fortunately) we are usually not aware of it. Like a little ant we are navigating our way along its various possibilities, exploring its enormous branches, twigs and leaves and cannot comprehend the vastness of the whole thing with our little ant brains.

    So, when you get a flash of the future it is a 'potential' future. It is what might happen depending on the decisions you may or may not make. It is what will probably happen depending on your circumstances, nature, fate (if you believe in that sort of thing),luck, accidents, temperament, talents and so on. Nothing is set in stone as far as the little ant is concerned. It can wander about at will, get lost, fall off, start again... What is it doing? What is its purpose? Probably looking for food - hopefully it has some idea how to go about that and will succeed eventually. What are we doing? What is our purpose? That is for the individual to decide. It might be love, enlightentment, nirvana, spiritual growth, God (however you conceive her), wealth, beauty, fame or simply food. Whatever. The tree has no preference in the matter.

    Now is where you are up to 'now'. The past, well, that's pretty straightforward, that's the bit 'behind' you. Ahead spreading out before you are limitless possibilities (it's a very big tree branch). You may get a glimpse of one of them now and again, you may not. Just keep going 'up' and you are bound to get somewhere. :)
     
  2. kingkoopa

    kingkoopa New Member

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    Interesting read! Thanks for the bump. I'm a new member here, and have slowly gathered as much info as a I can about life in my 18 years of living. Here are my two cents on the whole issue of Karma.


    I think that before we live a new life we must choose a body with our spirit guides, choose a lesson or a purpose for this life, and try to create a path to the lesson. I think you choose a body and situation that fits your soul perfectly. This can take years IMO before you find the right situation to live in. I think Deja Vu occurs when you remember picking this certain situation that is occurring.


    I agree with a lot of you guys about time. I think time is constantly in motion and every single choice we make can affect our future and what we hope to accomplish in this life. If we continually make mistakes and make bad decisions we fall of our path and end up failing to learn the lesson we set out to learn originally.


    If we do fall of the path I don't think there is punishment. I think punishment would be pointless. This is why I don't believe in Karma. I don't think good or evil exists. I think every life is just a learning experience designed to make you a better person. If we fail a we pick another life with similar circumstances and try it again IMO.


    We keeping incarnating until we have learned all the lessons we need to learn on this place. I have no idea what they all are, but that is just my two cents.
     
  3. tanguerra

    tanguerra Senior Registered

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    Rules! We love rules! If only things were really so orderly!


    In the reading I have done, not everybody follows this process exactly. Just like individuals within the present life, some people like to plan things out carefully, make goals and stick to them etc. etc. Other 'free spirits' like to make it up as they go along, have no idea what they are going to do and wouldn't have anything to do with goals, even if they were covered in chocolate.


    I have read many books on this whole topic, including the 'life between lives' aspect (Dr Michael Newton is particularly interested in this for those who might like to do further reading, but there are others also).


    Many of the stories cited in these books more or less follow the pattern you describe above, but by no means all of them. Perhaps this is to do with the skill and methods of the individual regressionist, or the class/type/culture/ evolution/ personality of their clients. I don't know.


    I have read accounts of others who say they were having a lovely time 'floating about' in 'heaven', minding their own business, when they felt a gentle (or not so gentle) a 'push in the back', just went 'Whoops!' and found themselves incarnated again with very little input in the process as far as they know.


    So little is known on this topic for sure it is unwise to jump to global conclusions based on a small number of anecdotal stories.
     
  4. dreamer8682

    dreamer8682 New Member

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    ICAM, sometimes karma needs to be seen as positive, as a chance to do things different. Sometimes the things that happen to us in certain lives just happen, but the best thing is to change reactions to them, so any things in life can fix themselves just by that. Of course this also means working to make what you want happen.
     
  5. Florence

    Florence Senior Registered

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    To me, it's not so complicated. I believe we are all born carrying over certain traits (some positive and some negative) Karma? maybe. It's up to us to further develope the good and try to eliminate the bad, as best we can. That's all we can really do. To question why we are selfish may be interesting...but to try to develope generousity


    is far more important.. I think if you reach a point where you LIKE yourself for developing traits that you admire....then your on the right track and that in your next life you might just be in a position to do a lot of good for MANY people.


    We have a number of souls posting here that are living those kinds of lives right now....


    The only hands that GOD has on this Earth....are yours....
     
  6. Charles Stuart

    Charles Stuart Probationary

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    Hi Florence,

    That was nice. I liked that... :thumbsup:


    I personally believe that "God" has delegated a lot of responsibilities upon all of us... :) (But I also personally believe He/She/It is watching closely over us to see how we do. ;) )
     
  7. Inphanta

    Inphanta New Member

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    Another excellent and insightful thread, with some interesting thoughts being shared and expressed. I think the best way to address this is by looking at each of the statements and questions individually.


    Do you think you have to experience everything to grow?


    I believe that whilst experience is generally a good thing, some are more beneficial than others, therefore it isn't necessary to experience everything to grow. In fact, some experiences will not only impede growth, but reverse it.


    Do you think your consciousness has a choice?


    Choice (or free will), I believe is the most important thing we all possess. I am very wary of any philosophies that imply fatalism of any kind. Without free will, we cannot learn. If things are pre-determined, then what we consider choice is only an illusion, and we're nothing more than pawns in an elaborate game who have no say in what they do, good or bad. Nothing is set in stone.


    Do you think evil is a must in order to learn love?



    Yes and no. Yes in the sense that one gains a greater appreciation of one having experienced or seen the other, but no in that one does not have to have done "evil" things in order to then be a good person.


    Do you think you are suffering because you were once a bad person?


    I believe that if I suffer at all, it is a result of choices made by myself and others.


    Do you think everything is pre-planned?


    As mentioned earlier, I have a big problem with deterministic thinking. It removes choice and turns us all into automatons. It's also why I'm very sceptical of scientific "gene theories" (most of which have been debunked) that attribute human traits and characteristics to genes (i.e. a murderer is only such because of their genes). Choice is a gift, yet some choose (ironically) to wish it away.
     
  8. Inphanta

    Inphanta New Member

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    Thing is, if good and evil don't exist, then what is "better"? Surely the concept of such becomes meaningless without absolutes as a measure? And what then are we striving toward?
     
  9. Deborah

    Deborah Executive Director Staff Member

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    A older thread that new members might enjoy reading. :coffee:
     
  10. Nightrain

    Nightrain Senior Registered

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    Yes! Indeed!


    I think we often over-simplify the concept of karma for a number of good reasons; the main one probably having something to do with our need for justice. Undoubtedly, we have all been wronged in some way; and we need the satisfaction of knowing that nothing escapes the notice of karma. But, like many who have posted before me, I have learned that karma is not really about justice or even cause and effect. It seems that the principle is far more complicated; and, like the concept of time and space, it may appear as something else on the spiritual level. As such it cannot be fully understood on this plane of existence. Suffice to say that it may appear as justice to some of us, while it may appear as free-will, or cause and effect to others.
     
  11. Jenla

    Jenla New Member

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    I'm not sure about the concept of "karma" but I think I live with persons who are paying it.


    I'm not sure, I'll explain.


    I have two older sisters, they're 20 and 16 years older than me, is a huge difference, , since I was a child, I think that I'm here for a specific reason, my mother gave birth to me when she was 41 years old, she didn't know she was pregnant until the 4 month, she said she was near to abort me, and when she was 5 months pregnant she was in danger again.


    But I'm here, well...


    My sisters are really the opposite of each one, a friend of mine told me they have karmas, because they were enemies in a lot of PL, then I think, well, they have to learn how to be friends, and love each other, and I'm so sad when I see that they are not learning that at all.


    They are not fighting anymore, but their decisions were, "not to talk to each other, avoid the problems".


    Honestly I don't know what to do, I feel I have to, but I just don't know.


    My mom, said one day "I probably have a karma or something with them", my dad and me said "Well, you're not the only one".


    What I want to ask, is.


    Is karma something you have to learn?, even with the problems of other persons, in this case my sisters?


    I have read your post, but I'm still confused. :(
     
  12. Nightrain

    Nightrain Senior Registered

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    The trouble with Karma is, that very few of us know what our karma is supposed to be. We can guess that your sisters most likely have differences to resolve; and it may be that your job is to rise above it and witness the harm such differences bring about. My experience has been that we can't change others. We can only change ourselves. Our job, or Karma, is to do the "right" thing to the best of our ability. What we do may not always meet with the approval of others, but we can't help or change their opinions. If we make a mistake, the best we can do is admit it and move on.
     
  13. stardis

    stardis Senior Registered

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    Hi Jenla.


    Just my personal thoughts about karma:


    When I was in my teens, I was in an Asian country and was traveling with a Buddhist acquaintance when we met a legless man begging for money. I was appalled at the poor man's condition and wanted to give him some money but my friend pulled me away saying, "No. No. It is his karma". I never found out what my friend meant by that statement but I have always thought about that chance meeting. I think the unspoken thought was that the beggar had to suffer and that helping him would, in effect, not be helping him.


    I have since realized that it is probably not possible to understand what is or is not karma when it comes to other people. I am sure that Mother Teresa gave little thought to the karma of the people she helped nor to her own karma, and in the end she just helped people out of love for them and her Creator.


    I know that karma means "cause and effect" but sometimes that is hard to understand when you see the vast suffering in the world. I have never felt like saying to anyone that they were suffering because of some past life action. (I actually did say that once and regretted doing so - it is kind of a mean thing to say when you really think about it). Neither would I want to say they were having a fabulous lifetime because of something in their past lifetime. Probably most problems in life are related to our inability to live well with each other in this lifetime. Your sisters problems are probably just differences in their personalities - the cause of many problems.


    The best that we can do in this life and in all of our future lifetimes is to follow the Golden Rule: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That is the best rule to follow to ensure that you are doing the right thing when it comes to karma even when you don't really understand how karma works in your life and that is what I try to do.
     
  14. Nightrain

    Nightrain Senior Registered

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    You reminded me of an instance, when I was 10 or so, and riding my bike with three other kids, one of whom was particularly irritating and complaining. Being a Catholic at the time, I invoked the "God's justice" opinion about his behavior. Instantly, as soon as I uttered that opinion, I was somehow thrown off my bike -- much to the amusement of the irritating kid.


    I realized that my mistake was to make such a pronouncement; and figured that I was being punished for having done so. I laughed it off in spite of the embarrassment. But, I remembered that lesson ever since. Deep in my own subconscious soul, I knew that what I said was wrong, and I became distracted, losing control of the bike and resulting in me eating my own words. That's an example of Karma.


    I can still be a harsh critic, especially when it comes to politicians. But, I know that I can't pass judgment as to what a person's Karma is or should be, because doing so would become my own bad Karma.


    I would venture to say that my idea of Karma is very much like Conscience, except that Karma applies even when someone has no Conscience.
     
  15. stardis

    stardis Senior Registered

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    Wonderful story, Nightrain.


    Your statement above makes me want to examine whether I really do or really don't believe in karma. I have read on the internet about karma being the original sin repackaged (Seth material) and I no longer believe in the original sin. Perhaps we mistakenly think that karma is cause and effect intertwined with our past lives when it is just the cause and effect of our actions in this life or even just our current life's storyline. But whatever it is, I think we make it a millstone around our neck and that our Creator never intended it to be so.


    Don't anybody gag, but I will have to think about karma in light of my questioning of simultaneous lifetimes.
     
  16. Charles Stuart

    Charles Stuart Probationary

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    Hi to both of you, :)


    Personally I believe that all things have a purpose, and that there is no such thing as a coincidence. Certainly this would also englobe physical or mental impairments, for whatever reasons may lie behind them; and no, I certainly don't believe that all such things are brought about by errors in the past. Many times there are other reasons behind such events. A child with a deficiency can, for instance, suffer of such an ailment as a choice this soul made to teach parents and family a lesson in love.


    As a personal story, I have already shared here the story of my 1st wife, whom I married and had my first son with when I was just 21, and who left me for my best friend when I was 27. I could not express all the pain I underwent, but it was only when I had a sequence of dreams of a possible past lifetime as a German soldier in WWII that I came to learn that I may have taken her life then and that her husband, the friend she left me for, had been her father in that lifetime.


    Certainly I am no longer who I was in that lifetime and in the lifetime as Bonnie Prince Charlie. I do consider myself now a much better and more evolved person, but apparently the Divine Justice is set and does not permit that we might avoid past karma. Only the chance to diminish it via our conduct in the present.


    Just for the record, however, the implementation of karmic rescues is in my view not an issue directed by God, but by the Spiritual Masters and Guides who supervise our spiritual progress.
     
  17. Deborah

    Deborah Executive Director Staff Member

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    Please vote - I'm curious.
     
  18. Malvina

    Malvina New Member

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    What happen karmically with suicide?.
    I have always wanted to die, and i also feel that I have killed myself in any past life.
    I think reincarnation is true, therefore i won´t kill myself even when i have dark times and a very difficult life. I also think that there is not punishment for souls who did that, only that you have to come back one more time and with the same issues, therefore: suicide was not useful, and you will have to face the same situations that caused you so much pain in a past time. Like when you sleep for many days in order to "rest" and avoid sad events: you wake up with the same events after those days, and you will have to solve them, so...to sleep was not useful, same for suicide. In relation to punishment, who would punish a soul that was already tormented and decided, in that desperation, to kill himself?.
     
  19. Eowyn

    Eowyn Wrought out of steel

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    Once again, NOTHING. I killed myself in WWII. That choice hasn't influenced my current life more or less than other lives, not even "facing the same situations", because circumstances are always different. I am in no war currently, I wasn't in a real war in my previous life (where I died in West Germany in a helicopter accident), and hopefully I won't see much violence in the rest of my life, I won't be raped or see my boyfriend die again, shot down by the enemy.

    The ONLY thing that remains in your next life are unresolved emotions, and that's independent from the way of dying. Obviously, those unresolved emotions might be quite hard in suicides, due to the circumstances you were in when you decided to kill yourself, but that happens with all traumatic deaths, not only suicide.
     
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  20. AlexD

    AlexD aka Shadow

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    True. Unresolved emotions are carried on from incarnation to incarnation just like any unresolved trauma within the same lifetime. They may be more or less buried as we grow up but in the end, at least in my experience, they all come back with a vengeance. This happens regardless if you kill yourself, if you are killed, or if you die in some kind of accident. The only thing that can be done is to face them and digest them, no matter how long it takes. I think they are the only thing that can make us repeat certain mistakes or patterns regardless of the outside circumstances.
     
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