Paying for something from a PL?

Discussion in 'Reincarnation Questions' started by LisaR, Jun 8, 2019.

  1. LisaR

    LisaR Senior Registered

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    What I’m wondering is if anyone feels like they’re carrying something from a past life into this life that feels like penance, karmic payback, essentially that you’re paying for a past wrong or misdeed? I don’t personally believe we reincarnate to be punished for past life actions, but there is a concept for example in the Seth (Jane Roberts) books that talks about how past life actions can be carried over into other incarnations in a needless way. He stated we sometimes bring old mistakes or wrongs into future incarnations in a misguided effort to pay for something “bad” we did. He gave an example of a person who wrongly accused someone important to them and that person suffered wrongly, so in the next incarnation the accuser was born mute or with a speech impediment to ensure they never do something like that again.
    Again, I don’t feel like this is a necessary part of reincarnation, but I’m wondering if anyone has dealt with it. I had a PLR in which I saw myself as basically a jerk to animals, and in this life I’ve devoted a lot of time to animal welfare (I’m vegetarian, volunteer at an animal sanctuary, adopt rescues, etc). In that case, I don’t think it’s unnecessary to be an animal advocate. But I also have a vague feeling that I’ve done something “wrong” in a PL, like maybe I made people feel alone or lose people, and have set myself up in this life to pay for it by losing people. I want to stop the cycle, if that’s what it is.
     
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  2. Jaimie

    Jaimie Senior Member

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    Hi, I think that means your soul has felt quilt about it and made sure to change this old pattern. The way you feel about animals this time around is just beautiful :)

    I think that if one for instance do not get it, if lets say if I was a strong built man in a past life that was brutal to a small child that I would in a future life be subjected to the same bad treatment so that I would finally, hopefully, get it and not repeat myself. But sadly I also think it can become worse until one realize it.

    Thing is sometimes we are really stubborn and it takes lots of experiences before we change the cycle, our way of thinking and break the chain.

    I'd like to put in a perhaps different perspective to it as well and it has to do with the relationships between soul mates.

    I remember a relationship in past life when we were husband and wife but I have recognized the same soul further back in time but then he was my dad and I was his daughter.

    When he was my dad he was in a strong position in our family and I think outside too, career wise.

    As father and daughter our relationship got into some bad weather.

    I think the karma and the way we used to behave sometimes became alive in the future relationship as husband and wife and later as each other's exes.

    We were still paying for something that had happened in the past because we did not recognize it to the fullest and were perhaps not mature or wise enough to change it as husband and wife either. But it takes two to do this.


    / Jaimie
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2019
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  3. Thyme

    Thyme Active Member

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    I think we unconsciously remember some "bad" things we did in past lives. If you hurt an animal or person in a past life, your memories may say "Hey, you did this". This does not happen in all cases, but it is common to feel that we have already done something "wrong" and we want to remedy all the damage.

    There are also people who keep making the same mistakes, over and over again. I'm sure that at some point those people will feel guilty or something without knowing why. There is always a first time for everything. If it isn't today, it will be tomorrow.

    I was a bad mother in one of my past lives. In almost all of my past lives after that life I had problems with my mother. In one life my mother didn't give me love. In another life my mother left me alone in the street. Now my mother is a woman who does not accept weaknesses, however, she is very protective and loves me.

    Children are very important to me. I am a psychologist in a school and a teacher in a music academy. I have to deal with kids all the time and they have a lot of fun in my classes. Something in my mind tells me that this protection of children is due to my past life where I was a bad mother. My daughter and son suffered a lot in that past life. I was such an incomprehensible, cruel woman. I am different now.

    So, yes, I think if you hurt someone, now you might consider doing the opposite.
     
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  4. Klaud

    Klaud Senior Member

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    We've all done the unthinkable, whether we remember it or not. I think it's natural to want to make up for previous mistakes and karma can have a different meaning and interpretation for everyone, although it doesn't have to be a punishment imo.

    I spent a PL being a horrible excuse for a human being who destroyed everything he touched and ruined people's lives, but this time around I've made it a point to try to help people. Not so much to atone for what my past self did (I definitely do still feel some of the guilt), but because that's the right thing to do and it's what the incarnations between he and I have learned.
     
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  5. Kalos

    Kalos Senior Registered

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    I was hunting down buffalo for a living for a while in a PL. After I remembered that PL, I became a vegetarian. Spontaneously. Might say something.
     
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  6. baro-san

    baro-san Senior Member

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    The way I see these karmic influences ... Our thoughts generate thought-forms. Those thought-forms remain attached to our non-physical essences (souls) until they're eventually balanced by other thoughts we have (during the same life, or subsequent ones). Those thought-forms materialize into the situations and persons we have to deal with. We don't deal with others' though-forms, only with ours, and our-though-forms don't affect others either.

    Regarding our memories of our past lives, and past selves ... They are affected by our current beliefs, emotions, and judgement. We get glimpses of information all the time, but we unwillingly distort them. The more we think and try to make sense of them, the more we shy away from the real message. The best attitude toward such things is of mild curiosity, and emotional neutrality.
     
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  7. Cyrus

    Cyrus Senior Member

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    Does the life of a buffalo count more than that of a cow? Or what matters is who does the killing? Lots of cows, pigs and chickens have been killed by other people so that I could go on living. In this life and in the previous ones, I guess, too. Maybe that's why I feel no urge to become vegetarian. If I had killed them with my own hands, then perhaps, it would be different? Out of sight - out of mind. Or maybe you wouldn't be a vegetarian now if you had killed that buffalo not for living, but for fun?

    I only want to understand where the limit is. How seriously will my karma be damaged if I refuse a beggar on the street?
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2019
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  8. Polaris8

    Polaris8 Senior Member

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    LisaR,

    Reincarnation is the evolution of Soul (consciousness)

    The whole process of reincarnation and karma is basically the evolution of the soul’s consciousness and expansion in awareness. The laws of Karma is simply the laws of physics in motion. For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction. This law applies to all life within the lower worlds of duality.

    However karma is not a system of punishment or reward has many in the west and some in the east like to think but a learning tool for the soul to know the self and master and handle its own density through spiritual growth and maturity by lessons and trials which the higher consciousness sets up for the self. In between lifetimes soul will reside on one of higher dimensions either the astral or mental planes before manifesting back into physical.

    When soul reincarnates back into the physical dimension our lower consciousness which is the ego is expressed and manifested within the material world of matter. The higher states of awareness are usually block out until such a time the soul evolves more in conscious awareness to handle such information. Each lifetime lived is then added to the expansion of consciousness and awareness of the inner self and over time the soul evolves into what many would call an old soul. At that point the during the old soul stage we are nearing the end of our cycle of reincarnation in the physical dimension is we chose. From there we will take on a more permanent residences within the higher dimension unless we chose to come back as a spiritual teacher or avatar if you will. So karma is really a teacher in adding soul to balance out the inner self.

    As far as meat eating goes that I believe is a personally preference. I understand the reason why some become vegetarian or vegans. However remember that plants and animals are also soul just like we are. The differences between them and us is animals and plants belong to a group state of consciousness still as they have not yet developed an individual state of awareness in the form of an ego that is self aware. Therefore they gain experiences in the physical world thru many incarnations over millions of years before reaching the human level which has developed an ego that is self aware. Plants have a two dimensional state of awareness and animals depending on the species are starting off in the three dimensional state of being. This also includes their inner bodies on the emotional and mental planes as well. Over time both the inner bodies and physical form change as the soul evolves more and more over time.

    So; as long as meat eating is for the purpose of food and survival then no karma is actually created. On a higher level of consciousness the soul group of animals understand this and knows this is a means and way to evolve to higher physical forms of being by giving up their life for the common good of all. However if killing is for sport and fun then that is where the karma is created as intent behind the action is the major factor behind creating karma be it good or bad.

    Animals kill for food and survival so no karma is creating for them. We were as soul many millions of years ago also animals as well when the earth was still young during the age of the dinosaurs ect… So the cycle of life continuance's. Not everyone is cut out to be a vegetarian or vegan. But they should eat their vegetables. It's all a matter of respect for each others decisions during this lifetime. Either way all life is eternal as all life is apart of the source of all that is in the cosmos that which man terms as god.

    Love and peace my dear.

    P.
     
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  9. Kalos

    Kalos Senior Registered

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    Honestly, I have no idea on how to answer these. IMHO every life is sacred but no, one doesn't carry the same burden taking one over any other. I can't justify that taking out some weeds in my garden (to help some other plants grow, mind you, not out of pleasure in doing so) carries the same cosmic weight as taking out an apartment building full of people with a bomb.

    I killed many a buffalo back then, wasn't getting any pleasure in doing so. I clearly remember being remorseful even then, while on it. It was my "job" as people had to eat - I was a forager. But it felt bad. I met an Indian for the first time in my life while "working" on a buffalo. Was too busy I guess and he approached making no sound at all, wind in his face, riding his horse. He could have easily killed me, save me from going through a lot of trouble in the years to come with the same end result - die very young, alone in a field. He did not, just hailed me, turned his horse around exposing his back proudly in defiance while doing so, and just rode off calmly. He was an "old man" for these days, maybe 50 or so, from the Ute tribe. Not famous for their ferocity so to speak but they had their share of being involved in such "incidents".

    I only mention this because I used to believe, even back then, that he spared me as he saw me cutting it down to chunks - so my act of killing it was justified in his eyes. I was "making use of it".

    I tend to think in the same pattern, so to speak. If it's justified, not under human morality but within natural necessity, it's bearable.
     
  10. Kalos

    Kalos Senior Registered

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    I agree with almost everything you wrote in that post, just wanted to let you know :)
     
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  11. Cyrus

    Cyrus Senior Member

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    Hi, Kalos.

    It was one of your great philosophers (Protagoras) who first declared more than 2.5K years ago that "man is the measure of all things", though men vary too, as much as their accompanying measures.

    I can't see why should it matter to the Kosmos if a human kills a buffalo or a weed. Moreover, when there is re-incarnation, killing someone, even a human, is no more a misdeed than spoiling a provisional physical wrapper, like destroying a violin's case without destroying the violin itself. As the soul survives nevertheless, it's just an inconvenience of changing the wrapper that you cause, nothing graver. When entire galaxies collide, black holes absorb a star every x hours and super-novas keep exploding every now and again, could such a trifle like digging a weed matter?

    I remember having talked once with a young moroccan immigrant, almost a boy some 18 years old, who told me how he used to kill lambs for their religious celebrations, looking steadily into their eyes while they were dying, as in a sort of a psychological contest, something almost personal between him and the animal. I don't catch that, I think it is horrible. But maybe it's only a lack of some special education or training.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
  12. LisaR

    LisaR Senior Registered

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    Thank you. I agree with you, that we set up experiences on all sides - for example being abused and later the abuser, being female and male, etc. I appreciate what you say about us people being stubborn and how we can easily not recognize what we needed to learn soon enough. I do think that is part of it, too. In the case of your marriage/ex, I think it would be very hard to know how to respond to the way the PLs affects the current problems, since it takes two in a relationship to work on it (I’m also divorced)- did your ex know about the past lives you had together?
     
  13. LisaR

    LisaR Senior Registered

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    Thank you. I agree about the guilt and how it can be used to evolve and grow in other lives. How interesting that you have the perspective of past lives to help you know why (in part anyway) children are so important and why you’re in a protective role. These are things that ring true for me too (I am a child therapist).
     
  14. LisaR

    LisaR Senior Registered

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    It must be difficult to remember horrible behavior in a PL. I too have a somewhat vague memory of being a horrible man in a PL and it was disturbing and confusing to sit with his emotions, which are completely opposite to me now.
     
  15. LisaR

    LisaR Senior Registered

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    Wow! That’s pretty cool. My decision was also quick, after some images (not of a PL) had been presented to me.
     
  16. LisaR

    LisaR Senior Registered

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    I have so very little PL memory/info, I really don't have much to draw upon. The example I gave was from one memory that made sense of my focus on animals in this life. My desire to learn more about my PLs is to try to put certain other things in my life into more perspective that I haven't been able to make sense of in other ways. My original post regarding paying for something refers to another situation, the end of a 13 year relationship and two more friendships along with it, nothing to do with animals. (I don't believe eating animals causes karmic debt, although the mistreatment might.) This discussion is helping me realize something about the loss of relationships. If this life were a play that was written before incarnating, I've set up a scene or maybe an entire act in order to learn something from losing them. And I'm not really learning, I'm just feeling the payment/debt/loss and that it's "not fair." (Sounds so much like a child's protest.) I will simply try to learn something from this and focus less on the "payment." I believe suffering is only useful if it teaches you how to end the suffering, though I don't quite know how to end it yet.
     
  17. fireflydancing

    fireflydancing just a fly in the sky Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I am sorry for your loss. I think mourning is part of real life too. No matter what ideology or philosophy you hang on to. It sucks but avoidance of proper mourning ( and anger and so on) won't help you in the long run. We are just humans with our emotions and we have to deal with them. And some people need little time and some people need a lot of time.

    I know, I have to live with my intense emotions too. My head and my intellect might tell beautiful stories about the purpose of Life and so on but my heart and my stomach usually need a lot more time to digest emotional stuff. They scream: I want to be heard, I want you to see my pain!! Yeah, a bit childish according to my brains but so be it.

    Sometimes life is just not fair. People leave us by free will or by death and we just have to deal with those facts. The broken dreams, the unfulfilled promises, the loneliness, and emptiness. Sometimes this in itself is a purpose and sometimes there are other purposes. Maybe something great and new is waiting for you. Maybe you were on the wrong track. You only know when all is over at the end of your life. In the meantime, we sort of struggle our selves through our obstacles, a continuous training in letting go.

    Wishing you the best!
     
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  18. Klaud

    Klaud Senior Member

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    It's definitely disturbing, to put it mildly. During a meditation, I saw a vivid image of me slashing someone's throat in a PL and not feeling anything except pure unfiltered anger. That kind of anger and hatred feels completely foreign to me now.

    I just sat there and bawled, while going, "oh my god, I did that??" Can't say it really traumatized me, but I felt kind of physically ill for a little while after seeing that.

    The best thing we can do is to try to accept what happened, make it right, and move on.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
  19. Jaimie

    Jaimie Senior Member

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    Thanks, :) no, neither of us did I think, I have only recognized him later on.
     
  20. Kalos

    Kalos Senior Registered

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    Hey there Cyrus!

    Protagoras wrote that indeed. The full phrase is like "Man is the measure of all things, these (that he declares that) they exist they do exist, those (that he declares that) they don't exist, they don't". That's a fair translation at least from ancient greek to english - ain't easy translating it in modern greek even. It's widely regarded as the first written mention in Relativity and even further, to Solipsism. It is not an Anthropocentric axiom.

    It matters to the buffalo and that's reason enough to consider it twice :)

    Reincarnation belief doesn't promote killing everything alive before finally killing yourself so they all "reincarnate into something better". I don't feel I need to expand more into this now, right?

    Let's just consider this, a big oak tree makes more than 10,000 acorns per year. Once every few years, one of these seeds will manage to grow into an oak tree. So the initial tree spent say, 5 whole years and a huge amount of energy to produce 50,000 to 100,000 seeds of which, maybe one will make a new tree some day. Now I come along and chop it down, just because. See the pattern there?

    I hope he was trained properly so he got real pleasure doing so. It would be easier then to comprehend why someone might do the same thing to him some day and hold no grudge against his torturer and killer. Really now.. You really put that down for discussion?
     

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