Recieving information from a source

Discussion in 'Past Life Memories' started by John Tat, Jul 27, 2015.

  1. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi Ken,

    I really like your post above. It mirrors many of the things I have found in my research. The ancient meaning of various words used in NT Greek have shifted (or been "shifted" either deliberately or by clumsy mistranslation) to something that would have been unrecognizable IMO to their original authors. With this, there came some very radical misunderstandings of the messages being conveyed. Years ago, after I had become a very thorough Calvinist, I realized I could no longer read the Bible without seeing it through the grid of my thoroughly inculcated theological paradigm. (This same affliction is common from what I can tell, and not just in re Christians and/or in re theology). It then took me years to try to break the grip of that particular way of looking at things so that I could look at scripture in a new way. However, even here I am continuing to struggle with understanding the implications of what was really being said. I can say, however, that it seems to me that despite what appear to be some pretty gross misunderstandings and egregious dualist/gnostic errors in a variety of areas, the ancient Cathars were probably more-or-less on point in terms of the overall nature of the "salvation" being promoted in scripture, as were the theological descendants of Origen (though I'm not so certain about Origen himself). Since you like to read interesting books, a very good summary of some of the things I am finding to be true in terms of scripture was written up by a Rev. Katsunoff in the last century: https://www.levir.com.br/theosophy/ReincBible.htm. This is only about 50 pages long and is also available for download as a pdf on the web at multiple sites. Like most books there is some "filler" to wade through, but I found it very worth the effort. BTW--Like you, I recognize that it is a tangled path and a very difficult task. But I believe it is extremely worthwhile! ALSO, I think it is cool that you get that "deja vu" reaction to some of the things that John says. No tingle of ancient memories for me. If I go back that far, I don't think it was in Ancient Egypt. Nonetheless, I continue to find what John conveys very interesting.

    Hi John,

    I envy you your no-pressure opportunity to talk to these two clergy-men. I'd definitely like to find some guys like that I could interact with outside of the types of environments and expectations that tend to confine the nature of conversation to the strictly orthodox and conventional. Frankly, I'd have a lot of ideas to discuss. As always, looking forward to what you have to share next!

    Cordially,
    S&S
     
  2. John Tat

    John Tat Senior Registered

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    I wanted to post about my memories of slaves in Ancient Egypt.. whether we.. Ancient Egyptians had slaves or not
    Different to others on this forum many (not all) of my memories are not complete memories... they are bits and pieces.. as I have described them before many are just small snapshots..As I have also said before.. I have no clues who the physical entities were I was occupying when the memories were recorded.. I don't even know if they are from one incarnation or from many incarnations I had into Ancient Egypt.. they are not in any sort of order.. they are completely random.. they are just memories
    With a complex subject such as slaves in Ancient Egypt I now understand the memories I do have cannot be taken as an accurate account. On the other hand individual memories are accurate and are interesting
    I remember talking to I think the council about workers walking away from major projects.. after being sent there to work on them.. I now understand we kept no records... in fact it was impossible for us to keep records on each and every worker .. who they were and where they had come from.. so they could walk away whenever they wanted... there were no roll calls to see who was there and who wasn't
    that's not exactly slavery...They would leave properly because they did not like the work they were doing and would go and work someplace else... The best way to keep them on these projects was to give them greater rewards for there work than they could get someplace else.. All workers were treated the same.. Egyptians and those who came from other lands.. there was no discrimination.. many workers came from other lands for a better life in Egypt.. to call those workers slaves to manipulate points of views is wrong
    I have no memories of individual groups (communities) of workers.. This memory is important with the writings of the Israelite's in Egypt I know it appears that I'm always looking for ways to discriminate
    against the Jewish and Christian religions.. but I'n not... all I'm doing is talking about how I remember things were way back then..
    There is no physical proof of any exodus from Egypt
    Why? Probably because there never was one
    Lets look at things from the reality of how I remember things were.. Many communities including the Israelite's live in Egypt for many generations.. so lets just talk about the Israelite"s even though it also applies to the other communities..but as I said I have no memories of people living in communities.. its just a term I'm using..over these many generations they became Egyptians.. most prayed to Egyptian gods .. there probably wasn't many "pure blood" Israelite's left after generations of of mingling.. marrying and having children to Egyptians and other communities..so why would they leave?.. Egypt was there home and had been for many generations... if there was an exodus I don't know who left..they had become a part of Egyptians and Egypt.. after so many generations they were Egyptians not Israelite's none of it adds up especially when you consider who would have to have left to be part of the exodus.. Egyptians would never have left Egypt for a god they did not believe in
    I have memories of being in foreign lands and watching with pride as some people from those lands begged our military to take them back to Egypt.. to a better life..Ancient Egypt had fabulous wealth so its reasonable to assume our workers were much better off than those in some other lands.. its also possible that these people taken back to Egypt as workers at there own request later on could be interpreted as slaves
    The easiest way for a worker to improve there living standards was to give themselves up to work for those of wealth and privilege.. voluntary and again not exactly slavery
    The following is interesting to me.. it's my conclusions from numerous memories
    Facts were not always important to us... keeping the quid pro quo was....quid pro quo was both a very powerful and influential force in Ancient Egypt.. that is never talked about or more likely not know about
    There is plenty more I could talk about.. that,s enough for now its difficult for me to write it down so its makes some sense.. so I can only do a little at any one time
     
  3. KenJ

    KenJ Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    John, I have no personal knowledge about slavery in Egypt, but I do know something about human behavior. I thought that this link might be of interest to you.
     
  4. John Tat

    John Tat Senior Registered

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    Hi Ken Yes that is an interesting link.. As it said it all depends on what you call slaves I was surprised at how little evidence there was that we.. Ancient Egyptians had salves.. The numbers talked about are very low..It talked about some of those found guilty of criminal acts being forced into some form of slavery.. that is hardly surprising.. not much different to today.. Prisoners of wars being forced into some form of forced labor (slavery).. again not much different today.. but as I talked about many people wanted to come to Ancient Egypt from other placers for a better life style.. and later on they could have been looked upon as slaves... As I said the link was talking about a very small number of people.. if this is all there is about slaves in Ancient Egypt from thousands of years of Ancient Egyptian history then it adds up to almost nothing
    What I was trying to pass on from being there... being an eye witness .. (not the theories and notions of partisan scholars).... I was telling as best as I could how it really was ... not defending the occasional bad acts that did occur...

    Regards
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2017
  5. John Tat

    John Tat Senior Registered

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    I'm putting together just one more post on slaves in Ancient Egypt..One of the important facts about all of this we.. Ancient Egyptians had no word for slaves.. So how did all of this talk and speculation begin that we talked about slaves.. that is obviously impossible because we had no such word.. The experts and scholars talk gibberish about the word servant... that we had a word.. servant.. and from that word they have perceptions that when we talked about servants we actually meant slaves.. That is perception as is not backed up by any facts.. there problems do not end there.. that the word they thought meant servant may not even mean servant.. so its likely they have nothing.. Nobody can possibly know what I know from being there.. My next post will have some more memories of what I actually witnessed and most goes against the written history of slavery in Ancient Egypt
     
  6. John Tat

    John Tat Senior Registered

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    I'm not good at doing long posts.. so this is the first of three on this subject
    I believe its important to bring some sanity into that has been both written and talked about slavery in Ancient Egypt
    To begin with lets look at what the word slavery-- slaves is defined as
    Collins online...A civil relationship whereby one person has absolute power over another and controls life liberty and fortube
    Oxford online...A person who works very hard without proper remuneration and appreciation
    So the problems begin in defining who were slaves in Ancient Egypt and who are slaves today
    I believe its important to compare as best I can from my memories of being there of slavery in Ancient Egypt and similar situations today and how the scholars have defined slavery in Ancient Egypt through there own perceptions and bias
    Its only through these comparisons can there be any logical conclusions made about slavery in Ancient Egypt
    As I said I/BB my spiritual self are not defending the bad actions of some
    Also as I have said before its important to keep in mind that we had no word for slaves.. but we did have a word for servants.. which can be challenged.. but that's another story
    Its also important to keep in mind that we kept no records of who workers were and where they came from
    So lets assume that the word servant is accurate.. At the very best its nothing but guess work for the scholars and experts to decide when we wrote servants that they would decide when we meant servants and when we meant slaves... So lets talk about a couple of things that are claimed is proof we had slaves and compare them to day
    Its claimed at it is true that we did list some servants as assets .. lets compare that to today...
    Most business's admit there greatest asset are there workers.. those who work for them
    It's claimed we sold slaves..I have no memories of slave markets.. I don't think there were any.. so who sold servants and how were they sold?
    Yes we did sell servants.. they were sold on a regular bases... all the time.. I have memories of how and why they were sold.. I off course do not remember them all .. I will give one example which gives a good insight to how and why it happened
    Lets say you were a person of wealth and privilege and you went to another persons place of the same social standing.. and you were served food while you were there... and the food you were served was excellent.. much better than was being prepared for you at your place.. you could ask your friend.. what would you require from me to allow your servant to come and work for me... and between you you would negotiate a deal.. and the servant goes and works for you.. The fact that it was a business deal cannot be hidden.. As far as the experts and scholars are concerned that servants statues changed from servant to slave after the transaction... The thing is.. none of the servants rights changed... they were still rewarded for there work (probably more as a reward) .. they came and went as they did before and there connections to there family and friends remained the same... nothing changed except who they were working for
    Lets compare that to today....When a business is being sold all of the assets of that business including the worker asset are examined by the people buying the business.. Nobody would argue that the value of the worker asset in not a serious consideration when the price the business is to be sold for is being negotiated..After a price is agreed upon the business is sold to its new owners ..assets are sold along with the worker asset... Workers are sold today at a level never seen before
    Everyday sports people are sold from one team to another
    In almost all cases whether they were in Ancient Egypt or today most people after they have been sold to new owners there circumstances remain the same.. The only thing that did and still does happen is wondering how your new owner/owners will treat you
    I will continue in a week or so
     
  7. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi John,

    Why are you so interested in speaking to the topic of slavery (or lack of slavery) in Ancient Egypt? I don't disagree with anything you have said, and obviously, you are perfectly entitled to do so if you wish. But with all of the truly amazing and interesting things about Ancient Egypt that you could discuss, this seems way down the list of available topics. I can't speak for anyone else, but with the information you have to share on so many interesting topics, this definitely seems like a fairly dull sideline. Once again, I'm not meaning to disrespect you, its just that I truly believe you have far more engaging subjects in your memories.

    Cordially,
    S&S
     
  8. John Tat

    John Tat Senior Registered

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    Hi S&S .. BB my spiritual self wants me to talk about slaves in Ancient Egypt... The way things have evolved... painting a picture of slavery in Ancient Egypt that gives a false impression of how it really was really pisses BB off..He/we are trying to bring some reality to how it really was.. the best way to do that is to compare situations back then to equivalent situations today everything is relative to the times we live in..The way things have been twisted and misrepresented to suit narratives and peoples bias's is really bad.. I wonder about and question the ethics and motives of the so called experts and scholars .. not only about slavery in Ancient Egypt but also the history of Ancient Egypt
    You want memories.. I get more and more all the time.. most I will never share .. they have nothing to do with anyone.. they are Egyptian memories
    The following I will share... I have memories of leading men.. around 200 on missions into foreign lands.. there is one I have a clearer memory off than some of the others.. As I have said they are not complete memories.. I don't remember everything that happened but I do remember some important parts.
    I'm not sure which land I went to..that's probably not important.. Different to what you see in movies .. big battles involving thousands of men were rare.. very rare.. Around 200 was a realistic number to take to a foreign land to fly the flag and to send messages not to mess with us... I remember feeling excited.. like going on a hunting trip and anticipating there will be plenty of game to hunt
    That is basically what we did.. we hunted out groups who we knew were there who were stirring up trouble against us.. These groups snuck into Egypt and would do us damage.. so we went to there land seeking them out.. When we went to another land there were no rules...We would kill anyone we came across just because they were there.. if they had with them food and water that was a bonus .. I know that sounds bad but that's how it was
    It was hard dirty work.. we could go days sometimes a week or two without finding any of these groups.. Sometimes we found them and sometimes they found us
    When the fighting began.. I had my ways of doing things.. If we came across o group of around 50.. I would send in around 70 of my men to tackle them.. I never sent all of them at any one time
    After my men had killed around 40 of them I would call them off.. I wanted the others to go back and tell there leader what we had done.. it was good when this happened these groups carried plenty of food and water with them.. Those I allowed to live I told them to get on there knees in front of me and thank Egypt for the mercy I had shown them.. then I would kill one of them to make my point of what could have happened to them... I always carefully examined the weapons we took from them.. there weapons would tell me plenty about the group and who made the weapons and where they came from.. that was extremely valuable information
    Sometimes some of them asked me to take them back to Egypt with us.. If they looked like good fighters I would tell them if they proved they were worthy of Egypt they could. That meant they had to kill there own people when we fought them.. This was good because they replaced those men who had been killed
    I tried to stay away from villages and encampments..When I went there the men would rape the women and pillage there belongings.. On the other hand if we had been away from Egypt for sometime and the men were getting restless I would take them to a village and allow them to do what they wanted Also there were times it was necessary for me to go to villages .. there was always plenty of food stored in them ..feeding 200 men took a lot of food.. they never went hungry I saw to that.. the food we could not gather ourselves we took from the people
    All of the men kept count of how many they had killed .. it was a competition of sorts I invented this tactic.. it became a tactic that was used by all leaders who took men on missions such as this
    It made then eager to kill.. I used this tactic to keep there minds on the job over long periods of being away from home.. a competition that kept there minds on the job and to kill s many as they could was important.. The winner the man who killed more than anyone else I rewarded him with substantial rewards when we got home.. that was what they all wanted to win .
    Going home was always difficult.. by then the word had spread we were there and they knew the route we would take to go home.. well there were several options and they covered each option
    That's enough rambling

    Regards
     
  9. KenJ

    KenJ Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    John, that is very interesting and understandable; quite detailed memories. I have a question that I would like you to run by you and BB concerning the time period, and asking about their understanding of who had preceded them and built the pyramids and/or what remnants, if any, of their technology that could be recalled. I know that this takes you a bit off focus, but it is something that would perhaps help me to clarify some of my memories/imaginings that could have come from most anywhere huge stones were sculpted to fit tightly together and moved great distances. I'd love for these kinds of memories to help solve these types of questions.
     
  10. John Tat

    John Tat Senior Registered

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    My memories of the real problems I had of keeping 200 men fed on a mission out of Egypt.. how very real it was that food and water were as big a problem maybe even a bigger than the military engagements were ... got me thinking about the written history of Ancient Egypt and slavery.. There has been written we bought back thousands of slaves from other lands.. If my memory is accurate one report said we bough back 16000 slaves at one time... I did the figures on how much d food that would have required each day as we bought them back.. lets say each person needed one pound of food a day in various forms and at least one pint of water ...for every 2000 people we needed to find one ton of food.. that means each and every day we needed 8 tons of food and 2000 gallons of water.. that's every day.. each week 56 tons of food and 14,000 gallons of water... from my experiences of feeding 200 men that's impossible..in any reasonable way that is impossible
    Now look at the exodus and only the 600,000 men without women and children.. 600.000 men at one pound of food a day in various forms is 300 tons of food a day and at least on pint of water a day that's
    75,000 gallons of water a day again that's every a day.. over a week that's 2100 tons of food and 525000 gallons of water... over a year that would be 109.500 tons of food and 27,375,000 gallons of water and that was just the men
    What I'm finding as these memory's begin to happen is... it gives me perspective to many things that have been written about Ancient Egypt
     
  11. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi John,

    This is good stuff. It seems to me that you may be circling around with an intention of refuting Bible stories about Hebrew slavery in Egypt and their subsequent Exodus from Egypt. I.e., you don't believe accounts of slavery in Ancient Egypt are true, and don't see how it could be practical for such a large group to survive the harsh conditions they would face after leaving Egypt. Be that as it may, your account of the realities of ancient military operations and warfare against raiders, and of the difficulties of surviving in the wild have a very gritty ring of truth. You really give a very good view of what it was like.

    Cordially,
    S&S

    PS--On the "slavery" issue, I suppose it depends on how one defines the institution. On the Exodus issue, I would agree that the account does not portray a "practical" plan for the survival of a large number of people in the wilds between Ancient Egypt and Canaan. However, on the latter issue the Bible is clear that God supernaturally supplied their physical needs, so that problem seems to have been anticipated. Overall, I am no longer sure how much of the first five books of the Bible (the Pentateuch) were actually intended to be understood literally rather than figuratively or symbolically, so I may not be the person to argue any of these points.
     
    John Tat likes this.
  12. John Tat

    John Tat Senior Registered

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    Hi S&S As I have said before and I am somewhat embarrassed about my comments circling around and connecting slavery the Jews and the Exodus.. If you look in a realistic way at the written history of slavery in Ancient Egypt much of it is obviously written with that in mind.. .. making it impossible for me not to talk about those things when I/BB talk about slavery in Ancient Egypt
    From my expediences it was impossible for us to bring back large numbers of people from other lands..Over the last couple of days I have not meditated but given serious physical thought about what I posted.. My estimate of one pound of food a day was very low.. when you consider we were very active for 12 to 16 hours a day .. the same could be said for those that are claimed we bought back with us also... one pint of water a day .. we could never have survived on such a small amount.. This problem of us needing tons of food to bring back even small amounts of people from other lands is possibly the biggest factor on how slavery in Ancient Egypt has been blown out of all proportions... my two hundred men for each six months of being away from home needed at least 18 tons of food to survive `more likely 25 to 30 tons .. the water we would have needed I could not calculate ..

    Regards
     
  13. John Tat

    John Tat Senior Registered

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    As the memories of my Ancient Egyptian incarnations begin to increase.. what I'm finding is that as these memories gives me more knowledge it gives me greater understandings.. I did not fully understand before that knowledge gives greater understanding and that in some ways in more important than the knowledge itself .. The memories of me leading 200 men on missions lead me to understandings that gave me the understandings that the claims about slavery in Ancient Egypt have been blown out of all proportions ... I was there... I now know it was impossible for us to bring back large numbers of people from other lands that were claimed to be slaves by the experts and scholars... we could have never fed them...I have never seen that talked about before and could only have come from me being there.. Now I have proven by being there that most of what was been written about slavery in Ancient Egypt has been for the reasons, beliefs and bias's of the authors and are not based on any realistic facts.. In other words most of what is written is wrong...again I was there and I know its wrong..I will now more on to others areas of mis information... most will be understandings from the knowledge gained by my memories through meditation... I have much to talk about and pass on including the spiritual
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
  14. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi John,

    I don't really have an argument about a lot of what you're saying about Egypt and slavery from a Biblical standpoint. Actually, I think you may be reacting against an idea that the Bible says things about the treatment of the Hebrews that it does not say. So, what does it say?

    First, the Hebrews were not captives when they came, but welcome guests. Also, they were not a multitude at first, just one extended family of about 70 people that made the trek into Egypt with Egyptian help and settled in Northern Egypt (the land of Goshen) and worked as shepherds.

    Second, the oppression of the Hebrews did not begin happening until around 400 years later, after the Hebrews had grown to be a sizable multitude forming a separate enclave in Goshen. At that point, the Pharaoh at that time perceived them to be a threat, as they constituted a large alien population in the midst of Egypt who might side with enemies during an invasion. For this reason he took various steps against them, including putting them into servitude. So, there is no indication that this type of slavery/servitude was common, the Hebrews were not brought in as a great multitude, and the reason they were put into servitude 400 years after entering Egypt is basically concern that they were a danger to Egypt. Further, there is nothing in the Biblical record that indicates that this type of servitude was common (or uncommon) in Egypt. Actually, the Bible does not have a lot to say on the subject of "slavery" in Egypt one way or the other outside of what it says about the Hebrews as an ethnic group being placed into servitude based on Egyptian security concerns.

    Third, the Hebrews were only able to escape this situation by Divine help and intervention (i.e, miracles), and were sustained in the wilderness after they left Egypt by Divine help and intervention (i.e., miracles). Anyhow, that's just a quick gloss based on my memories of the relevant Bible passages. But I hope it makes the matter a bit clearer.

    As always, I remain interested in your memories, and look forward to more "including the spiritual".

    Cordially,
    S&S
     
  15. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi John,

    I'm going to expand slightly on what I have above to include the story of Joseph, a Hebrew who the Bible says was sold to a group of non-Egyptian traders outside of Egypt by his own brothers (who were a pretty disreputable group). It is said that he was then taken by these traders to Egypt and sold to an Egyptian there. Joseph eventually comes to the notice of the Pharaoh through his wisdom and ability to interpret dreams, and rises to very high position under the Pharaoh at the time. Some time after this, during a time of famine outside of Egypt and with the knowledge and encouragement of the Pharaoh at that time, Joseph was able to bring his family (the 70 I mention above) to Egypt to be with him and escape starvation. So, the beginning of the whole story does start with someone being sold in Egypt by foreign traders to an Egyptian, but I don't know how common this sort of thing would have been, and I don't recall anything said in the Bible that specifically speaks to the matter. However, the story also shows that someone (even a foreigner) could rise to high station in Egypt at that time, and that it was through the benevolence of the Pharaoh that his family were encouraged, allowed and helped to join him in Egypt and avoid starvation. So, overall, the Bible story is rather positive about the Pharaoh at the time of Joseph, and very negative about the Pharaoh 400 years later who oppressed the Hebrews who were in Egypt at that time due to security concerns.

    I don't personally think the Bible's negative treatment of the later Pharaoh is out of line. In America we are still ashamed of our internment of around 120K Japanese Americans during WWII, who were considered to be a security risk at that time. According to the Bible, the Pharaoh's treatment of the Hebrews due to his security concerns was far, far harsher. This shouldn't surprise you, as this was a much more brutal age in many respects.

    Cordially,
    S&S
     
  16. John Tat

    John Tat Senior Registered

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    Hi S&S ... I was not talking specifically about Hebrews in Ancient Egypt.. It was more of a general observation from my memories..When I say I have no memories of something that in no ways means a situation did not exist or something did not happen.. It means what it says "I have no memories" of something.. I also have to consider that I had no incarnations into Egypt and specific times in Ancient Egypt history so I would have no memories of events when I was not there..
    I'm not attempting to get one up when I repeat myself ..I have no memories of large ethnic groups living in Ancient Egypt.. I remember a blended Ancient Egypt with those who came from other lands
    What has been lost are the realities of those times... just one thing...The pharaoh was a living god.. A living physical god controls events in the physical like no other god can.. I could write many pages from my memories about how that fact alone would have played a pivotal role if any group had become a problem to him...but I'm tired of this subject just as you must be
    When I talk about some of the knowledge I have learned about the spiritual I face problems...Firstly it will be compared to the teachings of the bible and secondly it will be compared to traditional beliefs so once I will find myself in hot water..As I gain this knowledge which at this time is very incomplete .. its only bits and pieces .. but it does challenge traditional beliefs
    Since these memories/knowledge began I have tried to analyse in my own restricted ways where these traditional beliefs of the spiritual and reincarnation comes from...There is of course the bible.. but in there own ways what has been far more influential has been the opinions and beliefs of brilliant minds from long ago....What they said has been handed down from generation to generation and over time have turned into some sort of accepted facts of how things are and happened/happens.. These people lived in very different times where such things as religion was a much bigger and different part of everything... living from day to day was completely different to today...where things of importance were very different to today..where peoples roles within the community was very different to today...and on and on.... The beliefs and opinion of these brilliant minds were in many ways a reflection of the times they lived in
    When you read what people say today almost all of it comes from these traditional beliefs.. They put there own spin on it but they all say much the same thing
    I will talk about some things I have learned about spirits .. First of all "our higher self" is a mis representation of who we are..He is "our spiritual self"... there is a big difference
    In most cases spirits are just run of the mill spirits... there is nothing special about them.. they are in a constant state of evolving,,,If you want to believe all spirits come from a god then that's up to each individual person
    Different to what is believed there is no shortage of spirits.. There is plenty of them waiting there turn to begin there incarnations into the physical.. The following I understand to some extent but in no ways do I fully understand it..Spirits come from many different levels within the spiritual.. what level our spirit came from makes them who they are.. For spirits to move to another/higher level they must reach a certain level within there own level...in other words when they have outgrown the level they are in they incarnate to the next level... they can do this within the spiritual or in the physical..after the death of the current physical entity they occupy.. they incarnate to the next level
    Spirits on the fringe of the spiritual waiting there turn to incarnate into the physical can be mistaken for different things
    When spirits have reached a certain level they begin to develop the abilities to educate the physical.. This process is extremely difficult to explain.. I experience this process. I cannot at this point find the words to describe in an accurate manner how it works.. maybe there are no words...I don't think those words exist... Do not confuse communications with education.. Education is very different and requires both the physical and spiritual to have reached levels where education can begin
    All I can put into words is..its important that the physical works with there spiritual self when this process begins..The spiritual us is very different to the physical. As the spiritual learns from each physical entity about the process's the physical uses for this process to work.. it takes that knowledge and because of what he has learned from the physical entities he has the abilities to pass that knowledge onto a new physical brain.. when this process begins with each incarnation the spiritual is becoming more physical... the more physical the spiritual becomes the greater abilities the physical has
    Something you may find interesting...what drives our spiritual selves nuts is starting from scratch with each new physical entity it occupies,, It strives for the abilities I have talked about,, but its a long... long process for a spirit to evolve to that higher level of existence that will allow them to do it and not begin from scratch with every new physical entity it incarnates into..
    It's the same that has been instilled into me from the beginning... nothing will be given to you you must earn it.. also applies to the spiritual
    That's enough for now

    Regards
     
  17. DorothyGail

    DorothyGail New Member

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    Since my university background is in critical study of the Bible, I'll just pop in here to add some thoughts on the historical Exodus.

    So the Bible is actually not a book - it's a collection or library of many different books, all written by different authors from different places & with different agendas over the course of about a thousand years. Some of the books contain fairly straightforward history, but the books dealing with very early times - antediluvian, patriarchal, Exodus, conquest, Judges, and the monarchy - are not actually straightforward history at all. A lot of these stories are etiological, giving fanciful/legendary origin stories for objects or circumstances that the ancients were confronted with in their environment, or allegorical. Storytellers in primitive societies are highly prized and because there was no radio/TV, stories created about ancestors and popular leaders were common and very popular. They were the main source of entertainment.

    Regarding the Exodus specifically, it is now believed by most scholars that the Exodus did not happen. The primary reasons are:

    1. There has been no evidence found for any kind of mass exodus from Egypt. There is an Egyptian story of chasing two fleeing slaves out into the desert one night, and there is the story of the Pharoah Ahmose (note the resemblance with the Hebrew name for Moses: Mosheh/Moseh) ousting the ruling Hyksos nobility - they were a Semitic people with strong trade links to Pheonicia. But those incidents are the closest that we come to any kind of exodus from Egypt.

    2. The Exodus saga in the Bible was written more or less around the time of the Babylonian exile, hundreds of years after the events it purports to describe. The Biblical writers had forgotten something though, and it was only rediscovered seventy years ago: that Egypt in fact RULED Palestine during the time of the purported Exodus. The discovery of the Nag Hammadi tablets made clear that Egypt had control of Palestine during the time the Bible places the Exodus. This fact had been forgotten by the time the Exodus saga was created. And the Egyptians ruled Palestine for 350-400 years, approximately the same amount of time the Exodus story says that Egypt oppressed the Israelites. Hmmmm....

    3. Hundreds of small villages sprang up in the central hill country of Palestine in the Iron Age at the time the Bible places the Exodus/conquest. The villages appear in the time and place that the Bible says the Israelites left Egypt and settled the land. However, there's a catch. The archaeology makes clear that the material culture of these newly arrived villagers was local - not from Egypt or Midian or the Sinai peninsula, or any other far-flung locale. There is no difference between the material culture of the new villages in the central hill country and the lowland Canaanite sites: the newly arrived "Israelites" came not from Egypt, but from within Canaan.

    Soooo....It is now believed that the original bare-bones Exodus story - the very earliest kernel of "escape from Egyptian bondage" - actually referred to the withdrawal of a segment of the population from the Egypt-controlled lowlands of Canaan up into the hills where all the new villages sprang up in the Iron Age. Because the memory that Egypt had actually ruled Canaan was eventually forgotten, later people remembered the story (or possibly shaped it allegorically) as an epic journey, complete with calamities and law-giving, from the ACTUAL land of Egypt, although in reality, it was a smaller journey of throwing off the yoke of Egyptian hegemony within Palestine/Canaan.

    I could keep going, there are more fascinating details to this argument, but I'll stop now. This is a very interesting topic, and the focus on the Exodus right now in critical Biblical scholarship is on memory - how historical events are remembered/transmitted. This smaller historical exodus within Egypt-ruled Canaan really needed the "epic saga" allegorical version as a vehicle to preserve the event, although the original context had long been forgotten by the time the epic story began to take shape hundreds of years later.

    Ronald Hendel, Nadav Naaman, and others have written very compellingly on this topic, for anyone wanting to explore this more.
     
    John Tat and Tinkerman like this.
  18. John Tat

    John Tat Senior Registered

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    Hi Dorothy I was not aware of most things you talked about... I find them very interesting...Its complicated and difficult for me to connect all of the different events.. but I feel good about historical events backing up my memories.. You also would understand the powers and influences of pharaohs back then...

    Regards
     
  19. John Tat

    John Tat Senior Registered

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    Hi Dorothy.. I have memories about Ancient Egypt.. most I don't talk about because as I have said before they are Egyptian memories.... You are interested in the Exodus... I will share a memory you may find
    interesting.. I remember taking young children.. not a whole lot but several at a time away from there parents in various regions of Egypt.. We would bring them back and educate them in the ways of Egypt.. We would then send them back to the region they came from... we took them from...It was important to us to keep the people informed about our ways... this was a good option for us.. These young men going back to there people and informing them about us and our ways and how to go about things that would benefit them by working with us in ways they were.not doing. As happens more often than not my memories are not complete there was more to it than that but I don't remember what they were..I had this memory some time ago it came to me while I was mediating with my spiritual self..As I thought about this memory I wondered could it be possible that this is how the story of Moses began.. A boy child taken from his parents taken back to be educated in the ways of Egypt.. then he was sent back to his region and his people.. its just a thought and probably wrong

    Regards
     
  20. DorothyGail

    DorothyGail New Member

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    I just read my post above about the Biblical Exodus, and noticed that I wrote "Nag Hammadi" where I was actually referring to the El-Amarna letters: the El-Amara letters are a cache of ancient correspondences found in Egypt from puppet-kings in Palestine and beyond in the Late Bronze Age, when Egypt ruled those territories. The Nag-Hammadi documents were ancient Christian texts found in Egypt in the 1940s, and I got them mixed up, so my apologies: It was the El-Amarna letters that made clear that Egypt ruled Palestine during the time period that the Bible places the Exodus.

    John Tat, I don't know a lot about Egypt and slavery although I have read that they did not enslave people living in their midst as described in the Bible, but that they did bring back prisoners of war who then became slaves within Egypt. And the pharoah would also demand human beings - almost like a tax - from subjugated rulers to be slaves and concubines in Egypt: "send me 100 young women and 200 strong young men..."

    The process you describe is one that I have heard of before, but I don't remember the context - whether it was in ancient Egypt or different civilizations.

    About the name of Moses...In Hebrew, Moses is actually Mosheh or Moseh. It was a normal Egyptian suffix name, meaning "son of" or "born to," but as it has come down to us it has lost it's prefix. Most likely it was originally a typical Egyptian theophoric (God-name) like Ah-Mose or Tut-Mose, but the Egyptian divine name that formed the first part of the name was dropped at some point, perhaps because it was embarrassing. The Bible attempts to diminish Moses' Egyptian origins by suggesting that the name Moses came from the archaic Hebrew root M-S-H ("to draw out") and says that he was named Mosheh because he was drawn out of the water....However, this is absurd because Mosheh is the active participle of the verb so it actually means "he who draws something out" and not "he who is drawn out." Moreover, the story of Moses being cast adrift in a basket on the water and then being drawn out and saved is a motif that was popular in the ancient Near East, and this element was apparently borrowed directly from Sargon the Great of Akkad, of whom the same story was told. The various details of the Exodus saga incorporates many motifs borrowed from ancient literature, like the story of Sinuhe, etc.

    In his book "The Levites and the Boundaries of Israelite Identity," Mark Leuchter makes the point that Moses need not have EVER come from Egypt but would more likely have come from an established Egyptian family of administrators within Canaan/Palestine during the early Iron Age when Egypt ruled Canaan. It's also plausible that he came from a mixed family - a family of an Egyptian administrator who had taken a local wife, and was given a normal Egyptian name - but had come to identify with the oppressed, local Canaanite side of his heritage, and ended up leading the withdrawal into the central hill country that apparently was the original "Exodus" event that came to be memorialized years later as an actual epic journey from Egypt itself.

    Or it could be that Ah-Mose, the Egyptian ruler who expelled the Semitic Hyksos leadership from the Nile Delta and sent them running to the city of Sharuhen in Southern Canaan, was later re-cast as the nominally Egyptian leader who led the "Israelite" people out of Egypt, rather than the hostile Egyptian leader who actually expelled the foreign people.
     

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