Reincarnation baffles me

Discussion in 'Reincarnation Questions' started by Jim78, Jan 16, 2018.

  1. Mere Dreamer

    Mere Dreamer Super Moderators Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I've been in the same breathless quicksand, Jim. You should see my poetry from back then, all about burning corruption from within, deserving death, and being worthless.

    I was raised by and among missionaries in South America. It's not "war" in the same way as you're thinking of war, but the militant self image was very strong in our mission (and in the other organisations I've interacted with and read about in missionary histories). We were saving the world, which was worth every sacrifice of family, friends, etc. We were surely in the right. The beliefs and social arrangements of those we intended to save were wrong. There wasn't much dithering over when to step in and change people and systems because we represented God to these poor people who were so lost and confused.

    I call it a Savior complex now. And it sounds like you spent lifetimes in a similar mindset.

    So when my foundation shattered that was one of the core pillars of my self image that went in flames with it, especially the deep certainty that I was worthless because I couldn't fix other people. At the same time, "saving people" is one of the stronger elements that survived the breakdown of my world ... sometimes a little too much of it survived, I'm realizing.

    There is a core of truth to the path of helping others (protecting the weak, saving good things from destruction, fixing problems), but it isn't one where we take over for others, essentially replacing their will with our own. The key (one I'm still learning to discern) is finding those who are already ready for the change, yet without the insight and resources needed ... and investing just enough to help them move forward, but not so much that they fall under the illusion that we are necessary for their strength and progress. Always remaining equal to others, though with different strengths and resources.

    Rather than becoming "Saviors" or "Gurus" or "Authorities" to which they must submit, reminding them of our own need for growth and noticing where we can learn from them, also (for all can teach or reinforce at least one lesson). Being too high above others, even out of a desire to help them, will erode their sense of free will and blind them to the necessity of continual growth and progress in their own right. Once individuals delegate their growth to "greater people" they no longer take responsibility for themselves, then blame the great for not being "great enough" to fix their problems.

    No room for hero worship, because we all have weaknesses. Pedestals prevent others from seeing their own ability to aim for the target and grow into similar strengths, skills, and gifts. It also diverts them from noticing the hard work, time, and nurture that lead to reaching that point on the path. And it blinds them to how our weaknesses damage others, as well. Thus all the shocked "it could never be!" when this or that admired leader turns out to have taken advantage of their followers or treated those outside of their circle to various forms of suffering.

    S&S separates our views because he seems to see false belief (as I put it) as a core quality of self, while I see it as a mindset that corrupts the core self. I'm of the opinion that we are all light at the core, only how much of that light manages to extend through us into the world is restricted by the number of layers of false beliefs blinding us to our purpose.

    So, yes. The other side of falling into quicksand is discovering a path custom designed for you. It includes what you've learned from all the mistakes you've made. In fact, it could be said you would be a less effective ambassador of light if you hadn't made those mistakes because what you learned from those experiences has hammered the core substance of you into a shape that is needed in this world. Now that you're breaking out of the mold that confined you to your previous role, you're not sure what you have now been shaped to do. And nobody can tell you that except, perhaps, your spiritual guides (who do not hate you, by the way).

    I'm not "done forming" yet. I still face points where various beliefs melt down and I discover a new, lighter perspective from which to interact with life's problems. Each meltdown gets easier once I notice what's going on, possibly because I've experienced the pattern before so I know it's not the end of the world. There will be a benefit on the other side.

    Even incomplete, my soul's "shape" now comes with the ability to reach into certain, specific individuals and help them shake off the beliefs that trap them so they can find new and better ways to interact with the world. Not with everyone. Some don't resonate with this approach so someone with a different history must step in to fill that role ... because it is their past that shapes their light in a way that they can reach in and communicate clearly to those I can't support using my own story.

    Note: even if I meet someone who needs my story, they're not always at a point where they're prepared to apply it, so there are a lot of nuances to this process. Like I said. I don't get to be anyone's Savior. Usually I'm explaining where my own mistakes and false beliefs led me into a similar trap to the one they're struggling to escape. Once they see how I found my way through it gives them just enough information to create their own path. They thank me. I thank them for finding value in experiences I'm not particularly proud of. There is meaning, even in failure, when the lessons learned help us and others avoid continuing along that path.

    So your future options are likely going to be rooted in your mistakes and what you learned from them. But now that you're free of your false beliefs, your gifts can be applied in far different ways than you've applied them before. I like to tell people that everyone's greatest strengths and weaknesses are merely two sides of the same coin. A strength applied inappropriately is a weakness, like using a hammer to polish china or a soft cloth to fix a dented bumper.

    The problems that you see ... that make you feel so helpless ... there is something constructive you can do about them. Part of the reason you can see them so clearly is because you have at least one of the gifts necessary to contribute part of the solution ... only maybe in a completely different way, using a different approach than before. I can't tell you what that is. You're the one with the ability to see and act in that space.

    The shift from a foundation-less sense of uselessness and confusion for me had everything to do with my attitude toward others. Instead of coming from a place of neediness and reliance on someone to guide me I learned to see that I own my self and my will, and do have much to give. Then I gradually discovered where what I have to offer is needed (by experiment, mostly) ... and then where qualities I hadn't even considered to be gifts ended up being necessary to others (by asking whether I might contribute something useful instead of assuming they're worthless traits). I'm still uncovering what that means, how to develop my gifts into useful skills, how to know who is ready to make positive use of my contribution and who isn't, etc.

    I'm constantly diverted into worrying whether I'm wasting my time, moving too slow, doing it all wrong.

    But the truth is, I've supported people in ways that they claim have changed their entire future path for the good. I don't have the right to overwrite the significance of their growth and gratitude with my old self-sabotaging belief that I am worthless and have nothing to offer because I make mistakes, too. Only believing that blinding lie can make me truly useless, because the result of that belief is never offering or trying or giving in the first place. I can be generous because I allow myself to believe that I am intrinsically designed with a gift that pours out abundantly to others. I will never run dry so long as I don't fall into thinking it's possible to take over someone else's will and replace their connection to the source of life with myself. (Which I tried to do for several lifetimes. It's a difficult lesson to learn.)

    I make mistakes along the way. Amid regret, I learn from those mistakes. The process refines me into someone who can contribute insight in some new aspect of life. Maybe eventually I will end up shaping into someone who can't reach the people I help now, but instead most effective amid others who I can't yet help. If that's the case, someone else will come along to fill the space I grow out of as I learn from my mistakes.

    Do you see? None of us is useless, no matter how mistaken. The moment anyone begins to regret they also become capable of taking the past and refining it into growth. None of our experiences need to be wasted. In fact, the only way to waste them is to deny ourselves the chance to learn from them and grow.

    In mythology they talk about it as turning lead into gold. It's called transmutation. This is the soul's path. You've recognized that your past has resulted in a great weight of lead. It's your choice to create meaning from the past. Nobody else can do it for you. When you do, you will discover that you now hold a treasure of great worth. It takes work (and a willingness to make and learn from even more mistakes) as you discover how to create the gold you can invest in the world. But it is worth the process.

    Hopefully something in that will be useful to you.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2018
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  2. Jim78

    Jim78 Senior Registered

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    Hi Ken. I always thought that we were here on Earth to expeience good and evil and the moral challenges that that throws up. Although if this is a morality play I wish that the feelings of guilt that I have would disipate. It doesn't seem to make a differance to the weight of responsibility that I bear that those who died through my past actions have lived and will live again.
     
  3. Jim78

    Jim78 Senior Registered

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    In my view John, Jim and the higher self are the same entity, just on different planes of existance. I believe that we have moral teachers on the other side. We know true right from wrong. I believe we experience the life review for one thing. My own NDE tell's me that we feel more alive in the spirit world, not like we are merely existing.
     
  4. Jim78

    Jim78 Senior Registered

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    I'm not sure I had a saviour complex Mere Dreamer. I mean, I did constantly do things to fight what I perceived as evil or whatever, but I genuinely got incensed when I thought that a wrong was being committed. I realised over and over again that if it was heavy I'll be heavy with it. I wasn't trying to enforce what I thought was right on others, I was simply trying to stamp out what I thought was wrong. I figured in every life that someone had to stand up and be counted, it might as well be me. In my last few lives I tried to do the will of the people, even to my detriment as with stopping fighting sociopaths in my current life or supporting the peace treaty in my last life.

    To be honest, I was too focused on getting the job done in my lives, to think about becoming an authority or some such thing. I still find it mad thinking that I can even floor the powerful with my abilities when they don't seem any great shakes to me. Although I do now think that this hero worship is unjustified.

    I see this;

    https://www.irishcentral.com/news/n...ael-collins-in-ira-ambush-166682986-237523971

    and I think of this;

    http://www.newstalk.com/content/000/images/000063/66109_54_news_hub_59182_656x500.JPG

    I have much blood on my hand's. I took that on for the Irish nation or whatever, but it's my own self who must confront my demons. That's what both homelessness and reincarnation has taught me...one is left with their own baggage. What a hero...right?!
     
  5. KenJ

    KenJ Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Jim, I think that the concept that all of the characters agreeing to a general script of the "play", an agreement to experience the details that they would experience while playing those parts, is helpful. This is sometimes difficult to keep a belief in when I see a great number of people suffering and/or dying at the same time leaving me wondering how it is possible for three thousand people to happened to gather at the twin-towers to die on 9/11/01 for instance.

    We humans tend to do things in excess, to go to extremes, to test the limits of about everything. I recall my fearless youth as an ironworker testing my resolve by walking wiggly structural building members high above the ground, even catching myself from jumping off just to see what it would feel like. Now my stomach does flip-flops at the thought of some of those memories. That might be a poor example but it might illustrate, on a small scale, what I'm talking about - not so much the "fear" thing as the desire to satisfy something that was important to us at the time.

    I have difficulty sometimes putting things into words that adequately explain my meaning. One theme that keeps coming to me that I find hard to express is that we need to truly understand something that in reality we give "lip-service" to, perhaps like your understanding forgiveness yet being unable to forgive yourself.
     
  6. Mere Dreamer

    Mere Dreamer Super Moderators Staff Member Super Moderator

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    This is why I say each person's previous path, insights, and growth creates a key that allows them to resonate with specific people. My "motive" wasn't the same as yours, so it creates a disconnect when I tell you my story and how I learned to move beyond the sinking sand you're trying to escape. I think the story, as a whole, is still relevant even if the core problem you're outgrowing is different than mine. Though only you know if any of it resonated with you.

    Edit: Also, all heroes are flawed. There is no positive element of living on earth that doesn't have an inverse negative potential as it plays out in time. There are too many people tugging on the strands as they're being woven together. Too many different expectations going off on tangents.

    Most often people end up a muddle of good motive and bad execution, bad motives interspersed with accidental good, excellent intentions interspersed with accidental harm ... etc.

    The value is in seeing this. Realizing that there is a shadow side is one of the ways we learn to avoid those pitfalls.

    As KenJ says, if this is a stage, then we're acting out this play for full dramatic impact.

    Or, for a more modern context. We're all in this MMO together, and some of us like PvP mode a little more than others.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
  7. John Tat

    John Tat Senior Registered

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    I also have had a NDE as I have reported on this forum several times The most important thing I learnt from mine was that my spiritual self was far more advanced and had far more abilities than I had
    For a short time when I did in part crossed over I experienced just some of his abilities .. it was amazing.. I was still aware of being in physical but everything was different it was a different place.. Just one thing ...all of my senses had gone through the roof..,,That lead me to understand that none of us are a twin of our spiritual selves.. he is a separate entity.. If we all had the abilities and knowledge of our spiritual selves the world would be a completely different place.. it would not be the same place.. This I know and why I know its not possible that the physical and spiritual are one and the same... its impossible
    When I say we only exist in the spiritual.. nobody really understands what I mean.. It does not mean we do nothing there.. it means its impossible to live in the spiritual.. The physical brain dies with the death of the physical body.. the only memories that remain of us are the memories of our spiritual selves.. I have many previous incarnation memories of my spiritual self but as I had said many times on this forum I have no clue who the physical entries were my spiritual self was occupying when these memories were recorded..My spiritual self is BB.. unlike the physical entries he has occupied he has never died.. he goes on and on.. My experiences tell me that BB does not have any memories/ or has no need to remember who the physical entities were he has occupied.. they are completely irrelevant to him The memories are BB's memories they are not the memories of Jim.. John Tat or any other physical entity.. he has no distinction between incarnations.. why would he?.. he never dies he goes on and on... The physical John Tat will die just as the physical Jim will die...if we were not separate entities our spiritual selves would also die.. that is the biggest fact against all of those who believe we are one and the same..we are not... its impossible.. its impossible for our spiritual selves to continue on if he is not a separate entity
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
  8. baro-san

    baro-san Senior Member

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    So, what is that we experience during past life regressions? And, why does the "spiritual self" keep reincarnating, if those incarnations "are completely irrelevant to him"? (I didn't follow your posts; you may have already explained it somewhere)
     
  9. KenJ

    KenJ Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    John, your posts have always interested me, and I've always wondered about the differences between your comments and others. I've often though it was more a matter of definitions and misunderstandings. Let me put out a structure that I consider to be "the way things work" kinda thing and track down the differences. My thoughts that may be totally wrong follow:
    Something that we agree upon exists that does not die exists "on the other side" that we refer to as Spiritual self, higher self, soul, or whatever that is an intelligent energy form.
    Something else we agree on is that physical "humans" exist that have a part to them that has ties to that "thing" that does not die - referred to as Aspect or even soul, which confuses for me. Anyway this "physical" form is a partnership between a physical organism and a small portion of the unit of energy that survives the death of the human body.
    A body is formed - an Aspect of a soul inhabits that body and experiences life's physical limitations - body dies - the Aspect returns, sharing its experience, to join other Aspects of that soul and perhaps gradually dissolves somehow into it.
    A new body may be formed later where another Aspect of that soul (some of that energy) forms a partnership and the process is repeated. This last Aspect/body combination named, John Tat, shares an energy source with its previous Aspects and remembers their experiences as his "previous lives".

    When I read your post, I'm thinking of a tree and a toothpick where the two were once One, the toothpick is not the tree, it is an aspect of it, but in that example there is no rejoining.

    Now what have we said differently?
     
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  10. John Tat

    John Tat Senior Registered

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    Baro.Scan I never said that the incarnations were not important that was your interruptions.. As far as regressions are concerned I am a skeptic A new brain has no memories of any previous incarnations of its spiritual self its impossible not even is its sub conscious would it be impossible.. So where are these memories coming from while you are being regressed? I have never seen that explained.. If its possible or it had been proved that another person can help you contact your spiritual self where the memories are they would be seen as some sort of genius.. I have never seen that reported ...I have only seen what people have claimed happened.. where imagination plays a very big part
    Also the point you seemed to miss was that its impossible for the physical and spiritual entity to be one and the same ... As I said its impossible because our spiritual self continuous on on its own after the death of the physical body
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
  11. KenJ

    KenJ Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Whoa John, you just added more confusion for me! I noticed you gave me a like for my previous post that expressed a connection between Aspect and Soul where the Aspect is/was part of the Soul - so they are/were the same.
    Which is it, same, or not the same?
     
  12. John Tat

    John Tat Senior Registered

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    Hi Ken Yes I gave you a like because what you said is right in some ways.. maybe my interruptions is different to yours.. I John Tat is very connected to BB my spiritual self.. I trust him.. and he guides me
    For the past ten years or so I no longer worry about many things.. Right now I have one very big problem in my life and I give little thought to it...BB looks after all of those things just as he has for the past 10 years It's amazing it appears he can manipulable situations that always works out for me... Each time I have the urge to contact someone in regards to a problem I remember I have no need to interfere with what BB is doing .. so I don't do anything I just wait for the outcome . There has been times when I have thought wow BB messed up that time.. but within a short amount of time something happens that more than makes up for what happened.. Its amazing I do nothing about my big problems I just wait for outcomes.. BB during my meditations tells me while we are loyal and worthy of each other everything will be fine.. That is just one thing our spiritual selves can do that no physical entity can do. This only came after years of dedication to meditation and improving me mediation techniques
    Is this what you were talking about?

    Regards
     
  13. Jim78

    Jim78 Senior Registered

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    I dunno Ken. Thinking of this as just a play let's me off the hook in a way. I did things I wouldn't do now in my youth too. A mere four years ago I did things I wouldn't do now.
     
  14. Jim78

    Jim78 Senior Registered

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    Whats MMO and PvP Mere Dreamer?
     
  15. Jim78

    Jim78 Senior Registered

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    It sounds to me like you're overly complicating it John. Your interpretation of reincarnation doesn't align with my experience of it at all. All the past life flashbacks I have shows that I was always me...not just another aspect of my soul. I don't know how incarnates are viewed from the other side of the veil but I do know that once I got here I was the same soul, just with a different body, life circumstances and name. Unless your saying what I remember is just my imagination. I don't buy that. My memories are too detailed and too spot on with the historical record, that I could verify, to be just my imagination. If my past lives were just another aspect of my higher selves soul then I doubt it would resonate so much with me. Past life memories have given me a greater understanding of my souls journey on Earth and most of the aspects of my various lives are similar to the aspects of me in my current life. I just don't think our various incarnations are unrelated to us. They are to similar in my case anyway.
     
  16. John Tat

    John Tat Senior Registered

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    Jim I'm not saying anyone in particular has been influenced by there imagination.. My experiences of over twenty years of dedicating myself to meditation and and developing better techniques of meditation have lead me down many paths
    I have been through many things and the problems associated with them.. I may be different to everyone else but it took me years to win the battle over imagination while I was meditating..I still have to put up the barriers to prevent my imagination interfering with my meditations.. Imagination is a powerful force it would lead me to situations I wanted to go to and I thought were right.. You have a real battle on your hands to eliminate imagination from what you want .. again I'm not saying anyone in particular cannot control there imaginations.. what I'm saying is... it is a real battle that can take years to control
    I have learnt things about BB my spiritual self .. who I really am.. that has shocked me..He is certainly no evolved spiritual entity... whatever that means... I have no clue what people actually mean when they say that.. I assume they mean as time goes by the spiritual us becomes more understanding and benevolent.. that is certainly not BB.. My journey has lead me to believe that the only way you can get to the memories of our spiritual selves is through deep and meaningful mediation .. It takes years to develop those skills.. From my point of view from what I now understand any other way is filled with many problems and bad outcomes...where imagination can lead you to where you want to go When you are connected to your spiritual self through mediation as I have said before you will know it.. it's an amazing experience.. time is irrelevant sometimes I think I have been meditating for ten minutes but it has been three hours.. the other night is a good example of the opposite... I had a very good connection plenty was coming through and I though that was an hour or so....When I looked at the clock after mediating it was barely five minutes.. that is just one aspect of how things are
    You said that your soul is the same but in a different body.. that's also what I'm saying.. does that mean you also are saying what "I'm saying that the physical and spiritual are different entities?
    I'm interested not only with you but also with others where you believe the memories off previous incarnations are... where do you believe they are coming from and how do you get to them?
    You will know when imagination is playing no part... when you have memories that could never have been generated by your imagination... where there is no written history to back them up.. you just know by connecting the dots they a real memories
     
  17. Jim78

    Jim78 Senior Registered

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    Your making assumptions about me John. My flashbacks play out in real time, full colour reruns of events from my past lives. I could tell you many things which are not in the historic record...such as that my tenth century incarnation definately saw my murdered brother back then dead ( it's not recorded in the annals ) or that that same brother looked at me like I was bloody nuts when I told him that I refused to stop fighting years before. How about that the most overweight person I remember from back then was a priest or that everything I did I thought I was doing for Gods' glory. I prayed regularly and in as much solitude as possible. You seem to be forgetting that I remember the nuances of those long past events. I didn't get that stuff out of a history book. I still feel a bond with Mathgamain, my brother from that life, because I lived it. I find your dismissive attitude to anyone that got flashbacks without meditation to be very uninformed. I'm living it whether you can accept it or not.
     
  18. DorothyGail

    DorothyGail New Member

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    John, I have not read all of your posts on here, but I've read enough to get a sense of your experiences and perspective with regard to BB. I just have a few things to say.

    What you are describing/experiencing with BB matches up very nicely with what others report of contact with lower astral entities who claim to be a "guide." There is an amazing book one man's experiences with these types of spirits, the book is called "The Siren Call of Hungry Ghosts." It's fascinating. These types of spirits establish contact with a person either through meditation, through mediumship/channelling, through Ouija Board, etc. and they present themselves as a helpful spirit guide, talk about spiritual things and past-lives, creating a rapport and even a dependence on the part of the person. They sometimes present themselves as wise teachers who work for your benefit and they create a sense of trust by relaying information that could never have been known by normal human means, or working for your benefit. They often tantalize the person with talk of past lives in the ancient world. But they seem to be, invariably, low-level spirits who long for power and for the world of the physical senses. They are tricksters and possibly even malevolent. What is disturbing about your words in particular, is your unquestioning acceptance of BB and his information. You are a trickster spirit's dream!

    I *really* encourage you to begin to see through the machinations of this low-level spirit and take what he tells you with a grain of salt, because BB's intentions are not high-minded. You seem to realize this on some level - ("not benevolent") so I'm not sure why you would continue to cultivate a relationship with BB.

    Please order the book "The Siren Call of Hungry Ghosts" and read it. The information you receive from this low-level astral entity is not from a high or profound place, and likely not accurate at all. I am not calling into question the reality of BB, I am expressing doubt about the accuracy of his information and expressing concern about your acceptance of it. Your experience is not unique at all: BB falls into a normal pattern of low-level astral spirits establishing contact with humans, but this entity is not good, not reliable, not benevolent toward you or anyone else.
     
  19. John Tat

    John Tat Senior Registered

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    Hi Dorothy.. Thanks for your concerns.. I have had this discussion with both Sea and Sky and Ken J in the past.. They have also expressed the same concerns you have.. I understand why all of you have these concerns.. but with me and BB they are unfounded concerns.. As I have said many times before I only talk about a fraction of what is actually going on.. BB is my spiritual self... to much has happened over many years for me not to believe that.. BB is me not some entity who is haunting me.. Sea and Sky and Ken J described him as an earth bound spirit.... I know a lot more than I ever pass on ..... If there is a bad egg in this relationship its me not BB... I have reasons for saying that.. BB has at times laid the law down to me that I must control what I have learnt.. Since the discussions with Sea and Sky and Ken J I have researched as best I could about these types of entities.. From what I put together all of this talk about earth bound spirits and so on have mostly come from people who believe in the Christian god and are looking for spooks to talk about

    Regards
     
  20. DorothyGail

    DorothyGail New Member

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    I don't believe in a Biblical view of God, and I'm not religious in any way. A strict Christian would tell you that believers go to heaven, nonbelievers go to hell, and anything communicating with you must be a demon. What I'm saying is that people have an essence that survives death, and some dead people maintain a strong attachment/longing for the physical world that they no longer can experience. So instead of moving forward to a higher state of consciousness in the afterlife realms, they linger at the threshhold of the physical world, eager for any opportunity to indulge their vice: alcoholic spirits hang out at bars, and controlling, cult-leader type personalities still crave a person or an audience to influence, and they're all too eager to make contact with vulnerable people who are very open or have natural mediumistic talents. I say this not to make people fearful or shake in their boots, but just to emphasize the importance of cultivating love inside oneself: a loving, happy, "functional" person has a strong aura (like a healthy immune system) and will not be prey to a malevolent spirit. They're like oil and water, they literally cannot interact with one another. But a person whose spiritual defenses are down, due to guilt, depression, dysfunction, etc. has a very ragged, weak auric sheild and is vulnerable to darker energies. This is what I've found to be true, and I've read something similar in other sources as well.

    If your spiritual self, BB, is "laying down the law" and encouraging you to be secretive about the teachings, that raises even more red flags...because a teaching that is high and from a place of love should be brought out into the world to bring light, wisdom, and healing. As the saying goes, secrets make you sick. If BB is encouraging you to not tell certain things, then...yikes!

    It seems like you feel that you and BB are two peas in a pod: like attracts like, that's for sure. So if you like communing with BB, then who am I to say "don't do it." But I believe strongly in discernment, and it just seems like you put SO much stock in what one source says - a subjective source no less, perceptible only to you internally - that I definitely question the accuracy of the info about the nature of the afterlife, the past lives, etc. And other posters are questioning it as well, I see, saying it doesn't jive with what so many other sources say or other people's experiences. So please be cautious and try to open up a space that allows for doubt. It's never a good idea to trust any source 100%, and to consider alternative ideas than what is presented to you on a silver platter. Just my 2 cents!
     

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