Simple, intuitive "proof" that souls must exist

Discussion in 'Reincarnation Questions' started by GrandSoul239, Sep 12, 2017.

  1. GrandSoul239

    GrandSoul239 New Member

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    Here's my simple, intuitive proof that souls must exist. I think it makes a lot of sense, would be curious for feedback:

    Very simply, why does our physical brain happen to be the brain that generates our particular consciousness? It's a very simple, elegant question that goes very deep. If science explains consciousness as a byproduct of the brain, but science says NOTHING about why our particular brain generates our consciousness, rather than another brain, say the one of your neighbor, colleague, or boss.

    So if this is true, there must be some CONNECTION between our physical brain and our consciousness. There must be some force that connects our physical brain to the consciousness that we experience. Sure, even if science postulates that the physical brain generates consciousness, it says nothing about why our consciousness had to be generated by the brain we currently have, versus another brain. There are 6.5 billion human brains out there, why couldn't my consciousness have been generated by any other one of those brains?

    I think this is strong proof that there is some other force out there that connects consciousness to a particular brain. We may not know the mechanisms yet, but this force has to exist, in my opinion, and I believe it is a very strong argument in favor of the brain / consciousness duality and the existence of a separate soul outside of physical body.

    What to you think?
     
  2. Shawn T Murphy

    Shawn T Murphy Member

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    What Ian Stevenson showed was that the same consciousness can move from one life to the next, so the brain does not create it. Your consciousness and soul is eternal while your brain is temporary. Duncan MacDougall measure the weight of the soul at 21 grams and this means that it contains 5.2 billion kWh of energy, which is more than enough to carry our consciousness. If you want to read my trilogy on this subject, have a look at it on Amazon.
     
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  3. Native Son

    Native Son Member

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    With all due respect to whowever, it is all nonsense, in my opinion, that the soul has any measurable mass. Be it 21 grams, or any other physical valuable, as it is illogical, since the soul is not anything physical, and therefore not subject to any of the physical laws. If the soul is claimed to have mass, then it necessarily follows that it would also then be subject to physical gravity, and, obviously to all the other physical laws. The physical has no part in the eternal, and if the soul is immortal, then it belongs in the eternal, and therefore, no physical mass.
     
  4. Shawn T Murphy

    Shawn T Murphy Member

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    As a scientist we know that e=mc2. The soul is non-material but it still contains energy and energy has a mass per Einstein. The energy of the soul is in our body until we die and the amount of energy that moves into the ethereal world 5.2 billion KWh, thus causing us to lose 21 grams. When they hang around, this is the energy that ghosts have to impact the physical world with. The natural laws cannot be disregarded when talking about the ethereal world. Everything there has shape and volume and yes, mass. The ethereal world has a few more governing laws, but it still has the law of conservation of energy.
     
  5. Native Son

    Native Son Member

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    E=mc2 is neither a scientific law, nor a theory. It is only a mathematical consequence of a scientific theory. Let's also be clear that there is no such thing as a truly scientific law. Even the most widely accepted theories, such as the conservation of energy are not laws.

    The law of conservation of energy, also known as the first law of thermodynamics, states that the energy of a closed system must remain constant—it can neither increase nor decrease without interference from outside. The universe itself is a closed system, so the total amount of energy in existence has always been the same. The forms that energy takes, however, are constantly changing. I take it that the number of ghosts hanging around have some impact on our closed universe's total, and not so constant amount of energy? And where do the other souls go, I mean the ones that don't hang around like ghosts, and impact our physical world with such tremendous amounts of energy? And since energy is usually measured in joules, how many joules would 5.2 billion of kilowatts per hour be for each hour the ghost is haunting our physical world? Puerto Rico could surely use a ghost, or two right now! It would seem that with 5.2 billion KHh for each ghost, one single ghost would easily suffice to power most any one large city of the USA.
     
  6. Shawn T Murphy

    Shawn T Murphy Member

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    If you are going to say there is no such thing as scientific law, then we cannot have a logical dialog. E=mc2 has been demonstrated in the testing of atomic bombs, so this is a basic property of conservation of energy. In order to make the closed universe theory workable, 95% dark mater is needed. This is a theory and not a law! It is an extension of quantum theory which is still a theory, not a law. The first law of thermodynamics is a law, so where does the 5.2 billion KWh (of 1.9 billion MJ) of energy go? It is not measurable in the material world, so it has to go someplace else. But this is just a representation of the soul and not usable energy. It is the essence of the spiritual body of the ghost or the person between their incarnations. Since it cannot be destroyed, it must be carried in the soul in the non-material world.
     
  7. KenJ

    KenJ Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I'm hesitant to enter this discussion because it does not seem to fit in Reincarnation Questions the way it is going, but I have a few thoughts. Much of the later discussion is about Dr. MacDougall's 21 grams that he measured was lost when a human being died. Dr. MacDougall also stated that dogs do not lose weight at death which adds to my concerns about his conclusions. It would be assumed by the good Dr. that the soul that weighs 21 grams leaves the body and exerts no downward force on his balance-beam, but what is it that supports that 21 grams? It would mean that the departing soul would be larger than 1000 cubic inches in order to "float" in our atmosphere. I respect Dr. MacDougall's methodology, but I would like it to be replicated (I'm surprised that it hasen't been).

    If the departing soul had mass, weight, and a volume of 1000 cubic inches or more, how could it instantly Think itself to a distant location as has been reported? How could the soul possibly travel outside our atmosphere if it had mass? Maybe it is the "silver cord" that disappears as a burst of energy that accounts for the 21 grams;)
     
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  8. Shawn T Murphy

    Shawn T Murphy Member

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    There exists an ethereal world or dimension where the soul goes in an OBE or NDE or after death, it does not stay in the material world as earlier stated. The soul is coincident with the physical body and has the same volume and same appearance. This is best seen in reports of ghosts who do not recognize that they are dead. They see themselves in the same clothes and soundings look the same to them as it did when they were alive. But none of that is in the material world. They are in the ethereal world and cannot tell the difference. Enlightened souls move on quickly to nicer plains in the ethereal world.
     
  9. Native Son

    Native Son Member

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    Please do enter the discussion KenJ, as I believe that it will get interesting, as following the meaning and essence of Rhetoric will, eventually, lead us to reincarnation. And since the one torn between two worlds is an expert in science, philosophy and religion, we need an active and well informed moderator like yourself, to keep us on topic, and warning us when we begin to venture out of our physical universe and into that territory that is forbidden here, religion preaching. But I would like to remind our author here, that in order to conduct a dialogue, we cannot have professors lecturing others, if we are to have a discussions on this forum. And I realize that anyone advertising their books for sale will not easily be persuaded out of their opinions and convictions, as it would not appear a good thing if an author were to accept and acknowledge errors in their thinking, and reflected in their writings, as pointed out by mere amateurs who go by only on their personal experiences in these matters of the supernatural. And most here are posting from that very personal experience perspective, and not from a dedicated research project.
     
  10. Native Son

    Native Son Member

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    In your opinion, what can you tell us about this ethereal world? Is there space and/or time there? And do you believe that there we have any kind of "physical" laws, as we have here? And I do not mean physical, as belonging to the five senses, but used the word, physical, for laws there comparable to our physical laws. And of what kind(s) of energy is the soul comprised of when it is coincident with the body? For instance; mechanical, electric, magnetic, gravitational, chemical, ionization, nuclear, etc. And is it of the kinetic or potential class? Or is this soul energy something unlike anything here in the physical world? And have you ever seen and had a dialogue with a ghost? And when you say reports of ghosts who do not recognize that they are dead, are you referring to something like in the movie with Bruce Willis in The Sixth Sense?
     
  11. Native Son

    Native Son Member

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    We can have a logical discussion even if I say that there is no scientific law, since, the so called scientific laws have been know to change throughout history. And if you are going to be citing Socrates, then you should have a good idea just what Socrates meant in his allegory of the cave, as written in Plato. This physical world is the world of shadows (unreality). Which is that in this physical world everything is in a state of becoming and nothing here, is ever an IS. And absolute laws, by definition, and logic, are never becoming but are always in the same state, as they never were, nor will ever be other than IS/ARE. Therefore we have no absolute laws in the physical world, but only in that other, which you identify with the ethereal.

    Dark Energy, Dark Matter
    In the early 1990s, one thing was fairly certain about the expansion of the universe. It might have enough energy density to stop its expansion and recollapse, it might have so little energy density that it would never stop expanding, but gravity was certain to slow the expansion as time went on. Granted, the slowing had not been observed, but, theoretically, the universe had to slow. The universe is full of matter and the attractive force of gravity pulls all matter together. Then came 1998 and the Hubble Space Telescope (HST) observations of very distant supernovae that showed that, a long time ago, the universe was actually expanding more slowly than it is today. So the expansion of the universe has not been slowing due to gravity, as everyone thought, it has been accelerating. No one expected this, no one knew how to explain it. But something was causing it.

    Eventually theorists came up with three sorts of explanations. Maybe it was a result of a long-discarded version of Einstein's theory of gravity, one that contained what was called a "cosmological constant." Maybe there was some strange kind of energy-fluid that filled space. Maybe there is something wrong with Einstein's theory of gravity and a new theory could include some kind of field that creates this cosmic acceleration. Theorists still don't know what the correct explanation is, but they have given the solution a name. It is called dark energy.

    And if you are going to be citing specific amounts of dark matter, and you are persisting with the scientific angle, then get your numbers of percentage correct. More is unknown than is known. We know how much dark energy there is because we know how it affects the universe's expansion. Other than that, it is a complete mystery. But it is an important mystery. It turns out that roughly 68% of the universe is dark energy. Dark matter makes up about 27%
     
  12. John Tat

    John Tat Senior Registered

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    Can anyone offer any proof that the concept of a soul is nothing more than a figment of the human imagination I'm not talking about proof based on faith I'm talking about real substantial proof...
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2017
  13. Shawn T Murphy

    Shawn T Murphy Member

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    Thank you for your feedback. I will proof my posts better in the future. It is a problem with quoting this type of theory anyway. Dark matter and dark energy are plug numbers for a theory which changes as the observed behaviors change. You quoted 68% and one from last year quoted 80% from NASA, but since this not the point I was trying to make, I will refrain from naming numbers and just say: the majority of the energy in the universe is thought to be unknown under the current "closed system" theory. And if it is more prevalent than visible matter, why has no trace been found in our solar system?
     
  14. Shawn T Murphy

    Shawn T Murphy Member

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    Thank you for this. Yes, when it comes to matter, everything in the material world is temporary. But Socrates also taught that we need to discover the laws of nature in order to understand the permanent, ethereal laws that govern them. So, an ethereal being or reincarnated soul could not effect the material body if the governing laws were not compatible, right. As long as the material world exists, there will be covering laws. It has be political (religious) forces that have promoted the idea that there are no laws, so that they could enable themselves to do anything they want, like genocide and slavery. Please don't discredit the few laws that have been discovered, becuase they help us to show scientists that reincarnation is real. It is the 21 gram soul and the first law of thermodynamics that has helped me to convince pure scientists that there is more to a human than just his genes.
     
  15. KenJ

    KenJ Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    As you stated, some stay in the Earth realm as ghosts, and spirits are reported to be present in great numbers all around us. So in order for that to happen they must essentially be having an OBE from their ethereal world back here. It would seem to make as much sense to have the E=mc2 not apply at that minute level as to have some distant realm from which they OBE back here.
    I thought a little bit about this last night and considered some of the newly understood concepts, that I'm aware of, and wondered if Consciousness had mass since it has been shown to effect the outcome of experiments, if it does then it would have weight according to your statements and general acceptance, this would account for some of the 21 grams (which I seem to be stuck on!).
     
  16. baro-san

    baro-san Active Member

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    If I remember correctly from school, light / photons don't have mass. Besides, mass means nothing on the non-physical range of the consciousness dimension.
     
  17. KenJ

    KenJ Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I'm somewhat a "light-weight" in matters like this, but it is difficult for me to imagine of photons as being without mass when they are affected by both gravity and Consciousness. For photons to only have "radiation pressure" and no mass would equate to the same, or like/kind, of definition for Consciousness - which then leads me into areas where I have no understanding at all. Much like a new occurrence where I requested that my spirit guides protect me from unhelpful spirits and one that has interfered with my thoughts for years has vanished leaving me feeling as though part of me is missing. I previously had no idea that I either had that capability or it was that easy - almost afraid to state that as it makes me seem a little "touched in the head" (which in reality I have been :)).

    And, on the subject of dark-matter, Prof. Erik Verlinde has proposed a theory that excludes the need to postulate the existence of that "never found" substance entirely. Further, there is speculation now that dark-energy does not exist, it was merely a fudge-factor that Einstein used to make his equations come out as expected.

    If that had been done, much of what has been discussed on this forum would need to be deleted and there would be fewer atheists. My visualizing souls hovering above bodies when I was four years old and remembering being able to freely come and go from my body previously may not be "proof" to anyone else, but it surly is for me. That memory is seventy-five years old for me, yet it is still vivid - I could take you to the exact spot where it occurred. Now if we are calling whatever that is that I think of as the "me" that entered my body as a "soul" rather than a "spirit" (or "Aspect"), that would fit your question better, but this is yet another example of my lack of understanding and/or confusion of meanings of words and the structure of our existence beyond the physical.
     
  18. John Tat

    John Tat Senior Registered

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    Hi Ken... Yes you are right as I have said I'm no longer aware of a soul only my spirit.. Looking back I don't think I was ever aware of a soul but was swept up in the probable myth of the concept of a soul
    I believe its important to meditate and search your spiritual side for the truth.. Its all very well for many to be experts from the writings and beliefs of others and other data that is out there... but those who are these experts are what I call experience ignorant... they have not had enough experiences of there own to really understand what is going on.. its more than obvious to me by what they quote of what they have experienced
     
  19. Native Son

    Native Son Member

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    Are you not being rhetorical with this response? You talk about plug numbers being resorted to, in order to accommodate the observed behaviors changes. What about plug numbers for the future changes that man will be able to observe in the future, and which he does not see at the present moment? Is not truth become a changing law, when future physical theorists will have to accommodate the new observations by plugging the old E=MC2, with some changes? After all we do know that much of the science fiction of today, which ultimately becomes just plain science in the future, when we have a major breakthrough in dogmatic thinking, like E=MC2. And science fiction talks about warp drive, and hyper drive, etc. A wormhole, if you ask me, it's this discussion of the eternal and the ever-changing physical. And have they the perfect diet in the ethereal realm, that we souls should all be 21 grams exactly? And all along I thought that the unit of measure up there was justice and injustice, when it comes to the souls weighing in. What, no need of the Adkins diet up there? What does an angel weigh? And how about the One Creator Soul, what kind of weight does He carry in heaven? Hopefully, for my sake, as well as yours, enough to forgive me, and possibly even you, from going to hell again for telling lies, trough rhetoric.
     
  20. Native Son

    Native Son Member

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    What? Another of Protagoras's disciple? Well, now what makes you so sure that your experience is closer to the truth than mine? What criterion are you using, spirit?
     

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