Super Soul Groups

Discussion in 'Reincarnation Questions' started by SeaAndSky, Apr 29, 2018.

  1. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    This thread is a continuation and transfer of a discussion that began under the Ted Bundy thread recently between SeaAndSky and Jim78 related to what I am terming Super Soul Groups, which is really an attempt to come up with a suitable name for an observed tendency, at least in indigenous cultures (and probably in more traditional cultures) towards intra-ethnic/cultural reincarnation. Obviously, I am looking for the right terminology here. This could be the result of past life vows, the continuing goal of being close to other family/soul group members that are doing the same thing, or ??. Overall, the topic relates to pre-existing threads related to Animistic Reincarnation, PL Vows, sense of affiliation with a certain country or people, etc. It also relates to a large number of posts/threads by Jim78 dealing with his PLs working for and on behalf of Irish independence, etc. and trying to cope with the violent consequences of this quest. I have sought to cut and paste as necessary to provide an adequate lead-in to the conversation.

    (2) So, beginning observations by S&S:

    t appears that we often enter into our lifetimes with knowledge of the bad things that are certain or almost certain to happen to us during those lifetimes. To that extent, at least, it appears that we accept the price we must "pay for admission", a kind of tacit agreement to the negative consequences we may experience. This doesn't mean that we "approve" of the evil that may be done to us, only that we are willing to pay that price for what will be accomplished (or perhaps otherwise experienced). And, what may be accomplished may be a lot bigger than what we individually suffer or gain.

    The last thought came to me because of conversations I was having with a Jewish colleague a while back, who continued to have trouble with God because of the Holocaust. I knew and he knew that the modern state of Israel would not exist without the Holocaust, something that was and is very positive from the standpoint of most Jews. But God allowing (or perhaps predestining) the slaughter of millions of Jews in order to bring that about certainly puts a very negative spin on the way God works. However, I later wondered about the Jewish souls that entered those lifetimes. (If you have some familiarity with Jewish reincarnation beliefs, you will know that they hold that Jews reincarnate almost always as Jews--which is not that far-fetched in view of some of the things determined about intra-ethnic reincarnation in traditional cultures by Stevenson and others). From that perspective, I had to wonder how many of these spirits quite willingly subjected themselves to the forces of evil and took on the price of martyrdom in order to see the ancient dream of the Jews fulfilled. It may be this way in other cases as well. For better or worse, wise or unwise, I think many would be quite willing to take on a lifetime where they knew they would die violently if it would help establish their own independent nation. The Jews and the Irish seem to have felt this way historically.

    (2) Response from Jim:

    Hi S&S. I'd love to hear more about intra-ethnic reincarnation and Jews reincarnating as Jews.

    I ask because I myself seem to be linked to Irish unity. The only time Ireland was unified was under Brian Boru in the early 11th century. I've worked towards Irish unity also in the 18th, 20th and 21st centuries.

    Its like Ireland draws my soul like a moth to a flame. It would be a great relief to me to know that I agreed to make the sacrifices I made to help progress the Irish race. Much better than just thinking I'm here to spread evil. Could you elaborate on what Stevenson found and what something like my souls repeated Irish incarnations actually might mean please?

    (3) Further from S&S:

    Of the three steams of Judaism--Orthodox, Conservative, and Reformed--only the Orthodox (who tend to be very associated with Kabbalah) tend to be really strong believers in reincarnation. So, I should have limited my comment to Orthodox Jews, though I think that many other Jews also believe. In any case, it is my understanding that this belief in part confirms and adheres to the fact that all of the Jews made a promise for themselves and their descendants to obey the Torah law given at Sinai forever, and so they return as Jews over and over again--obeying the laws and trying to make the world a better place by doing so. You can find a great many Youtube videos by Orthodox Jews on the subject of reincarnation ("Gilgul") if you want to look, as well as a lot of internet info. Wikipedia can also be a good source. I think there are also organizations that reach out to find and incorporate people who feel like they "should have been born Jewish", etc.--i.e., got born in the wrong ethnicity.

    This is not really out of place with other traditional societies that believe in reincarnation. Ian Stevenson's research was mostly with such groups, such as the Druse, Hindus, etc. In those cases, reincarnation not only typically took place in the same ethnic group, but often very close by physically or in the same family. Many American Indian tribes also held such beliefs, and I have heard the same about a lot of other indigenous groups from Africa and elsewhere. In many of these groups, it was apparently not unusual to "recognize" a child as being great-grandpa or grandma come back and to name them accordingly.

    I heard somewhere that the ancient Celts also held such beliefs. But, no time to do much research, so I'm open to correction on any mistakes I have made. I think the interesting thing is that what is generally referred to as "Western Civilization" is not necessarily in sync with these tendencies. It seems that we are the exception--not the rule (though we may become the rule in these matters) in terms of coming back over a wider area geographically as well as ethnically. The whole thing is one of those background questions that need more analysis--are we that different, or is it just because Western Civilization is so wide-spread (so that you could be born all over the place and still be part of it)? If we are that different--why?

    PS--I think you understand very well why I mentioned the Irish in my last post. And yes, I think that a large number of "Irish" souls (including you) have been struggling over the last millenia to safeguard and/or obtain Irish freedom and progress--often living and taking on lives where they knew they would die violently. People sneer at Nationalism as being counter to progress and the source of great evils. However, all I have seen is that those who will not protect their turf will have it taken by others. (It's a hard world). Also, it appears that souls are associated with not just a small soul group, but by being part of a traditional society over hundreds or thousands of years can and would form tangled spiritual kinship relationships/groups (such as the Jews) who form super-groupings with shared loyalties and duties towards each other. I doubt this always leads to good things, but I'm not convinced that it inevitably leads to bad things either (as the Jews and the Irish may have proved).

    CONT'D
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2018
  2. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    (4) Further from Jim:

    If those various versions of reincarnation are to be believed and if it is born out in research that people incarnate into the same regions geographically or the same belief systems then it is possible , as you say, that reincarnation is not merely linked to various soul groups but also to a civilisations overall progress. My own PL memories bare this out ( although I did have at least one life that I remember in between my Irish incarnations where I was from a different culture, although I haven't been able to find any information on that ).

    In my eighteenth, twentieth and twenty first century lives I considered it at the time to be an honour to serve my country. I was a patriot. But just like how my perspective on war had shifted, my perspective on nationalism has also shifted. I see it as being responsible for many evils. Yet I can't shake this feeling that without Republican ideals I would not be now enjoying living in a Democratic Republic in my current life. Living standards have improved greatly, even the poor live comfortably compared to generations past. Things like the gay marriage bill point to a more progressive society. Even the homeless get benefits here. Ireland has changed drastically in the years since the founding of the free state and in particular in the last 25 years and none of that would have been possible without the fight for republican ideals or the loosening of the grip of the Catholic church. While its arguable that we would have won our freedom in the political arena without the need for war in the early twentieth century, without the groundwork laid down from the end of the late eighteenth century that progress wouldn't have occurred.

    This is my eighteenth century life:

    http://1916societies.com/2016/12/01/wolfe-tone-speech-john-crawley/

    And this is my early twentieth century life:
    http://www.generalmichaelcollins.com/life-times/the-struggle/collins-quotes/

    Its very clear that my twentieth century life picked up from where my eighteenth century life left off, in terms of how I served my nation. Although Tone is more lionised than Collins in Republican circles because as Tone I didn't have to compromise, but its very clear that my soul, as Collins, was contracted, or destined, to adhere to the principles set down in my life prior to Collins. Whether that was a vow or a contract however, I do not know. Your guess is as good as mine.


    (5) Final from S&S:

    IMO, one of the greatest blessings and greatest curses of the modern era in Western Civilization is individualism. It helps to put nationalism in balance, but its impact in places like this forum is so pervasive that I seldom find any inkling of a sense that there are larger spiritually important and lasting social structures/groupings in play than the individual and his/her particular soul group, or that there are larger and more nuanced plans at work in history other than (a) the evolution/development of individual "souls" at one end of the scale (along with their soul group mates) AND beyond that, at the other end of the scale, (b) the vast mass of individuals with their manifold soul groups considered as a whole.

    So, all you will hear about generally is the individual and his/her immediate linked "soul" group and grand theories about their evolution/development, and likewise grand theories about the mass of humanity and its evolution/development. I.e., as individualism becomes more pervasive and governing in people's minds, they tend to only see the microcosm of the individual with immediate links as important, and (if their minds are a bit larger) the macrocosm of humankind (a mass of individuals) as a whole. All intermediate structures and groupings tend to be ignored in terms of having any lasting spiritual value. These can be important in a more transient way for the immediate comfort/freedom of the individual incarnation or to help advance the comfort/freedom of the mass of incarnated individuals, but in terms of any other lasting value and merits--Nyet! It is as if the universe was composed of nothing but atoms/molecules at one end and stars/galaxies at the other, with no intermediate structures.

    I am not sure where exactly my thoughts are going on this, but I believe the Jewish approach, both at its exoteric and esoteric levels has merit. For them the BIG PLAN includes not just individuals with their immediate groupings at one end and ALL INDIVIDUALS at the other end. It also include a special plan for them as a people group, a unique grouping of spirits/souls moving through history together. How this relates to the rest of us I do not know, but I think they are not the only ones who can claim this distinction. Once again, I'm not clear on all of this, I'm just having a sense that we are ignoring something very important in the overall picture.


    I could get flack on this post from a variety of levels, including from those on the board who believe there are no "Big Plans". Big Plans necessarily imply "Big Planners" and perhaps even an ultimate "BIG PLANNER" :eek:. Both Big Plans and Big Planners are found to be EXTREMELY offensive and narrow by many (and well outside the comfort zone of the most dedicated individualist

    (6) Queries:

    a) How does this tendency in indigenous/traditional cultures relate to the increase of and expansion of a largely Western global culture comprising a mixture of varying cultures from around the world?

    b) Do super-soul groups of the types discussed here exist, and if so, to what extent are they temporary or continuing, relevant or irrelevant in the governance and/or evolution/development of souls and planet?

    c) Is Jim's repeated reincarnation in Ireland merely the result of his love and devotion to the country and its future, or could it be a more general tendency (at least prior to the 20th century) towards intraethnic reincarnation in Ireland as a traditional culture?

    d) Etc.
     
  3. Jim78

    Jim78 Senior Registered

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    Individualism is a theme that runs through my own current life S&S. I seem to be increasingly undermanned in my various battles through my Republican incarnations, through to the point of taking an individualist, apolitical stance that was of benefit to a great many people in what I, as an individual, choose not to do. I was able to uphold the ideals of the Republic while being at a remove from 'civil war politics'. Without the individualism that is pervasive in modern western culture I wouldn't have taken that stance. It seems that whatever it is about the culture that has progressed, has also progressed in me. Conversely my individualism helped me to make a humane decision, something without unseen motives, something pure. My nationalism extended as far as the Republic, it didn't limit itself to one particular political group. What I'm saying is that individualism, wielded right, can be of great benefit to society as a whole. Individualism can help someone see the bigger picture of overall nationalism and Democratic ideals.

    I do see how individualism can limit oneself to the microcosm and macrocosm and nothing in between however. But I've never really limited myself to my soul group journeys. I want to know why I seem to be finishing the work I left off in my various incarnations. Why does the Irish problem seem to be linked to my own, and others I know of who have incarnated, soul journeys.

    I can't speak for anyone else's soul journey, but there certainly seems to be a BIG PLAN going on with me and others that I'm aware of. Why else would my soul strive for Irish unity?

    I don't know how any of this relates to the progression of cultures though. Maybe others will post on this thread who have soul links to various cultures or countries that seem to indicate something going on. Then I would have something to compare my experiences to.

    I doubt my soul has any love or devotion for a particular country. Maybe I have love and devotion for a certain grouping of souls striving towards the same thing? Maybe Ireland provides the best platform for me to learn. I don't know.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2018
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  4. fireflydancing

    fireflydancing just a fly in the sky Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Interesting questions in this topic.

    a) How does this tendency in indigenous/traditional cultures relate to the increase of and expansion of a largely Western global culture comprising a mixture of varying cultures from around the world?

    Recently I read a lot about the Kogi tribe from Colombia. This tribe had isolated itself from modern civilization. They live their lives in the same manner as hundreds of years ago. They claim to be a united soul. Their cosmology is in short: In the beginning, there was a womb-like Ocean, Aluna, the Mother. She birthed and created our realities. In daily life, the Kogi Indians are preoccupied to keep the balance between the male and female energies. They have lived in isolation until the end of last century. Although they had no contact with the modern world, they were aware: astral traveling, remote viewing and so on. They decided to break their silence and invited the filmmaker Alan Ereira (BBC) to make a documentary about them and their message about the devastating effects of climate change worldwide. They believe in reincarnation because they were also determined to visit the Netherlands for lectures and workshops. According to them at this moment a lot of reincarnated old Indians (Maya, Aztec, Inca etc.) had chosen to be reborn at that place and they wanted to reconnect and raise awareness for their call.

    b) Do super-soul groups of the types discussed here exist, and if so, to what extent are they temporary or continuing, relevant or irrelevant in the governance and/or evolution/development of souls and planet?

    Now, this is my own view on life and existence. I am still observing and discovering every day. I think that our souls and purposes are many layered. It is not possible to explain or view the overall with logic. Anything is possible. If souls make agreements, they can do whatever they want. If a group of souls want to stay close, they can do. But it is not a law, just a decision. Doesn't mean that it is impossible to leave a group.
    During my soul-searchings, I found a personal pattern of me going through the world. It's a line going from area to area through the world. Not a one time visit, but several lives before moving on. In this life, I can easily tap into cultures and their energies without assimilating or losing myself. It happened so many times that people got confused, not knowing to what culture I belong. So many funny stories.
    But what I want to say: as soon as I am 'done' with a culture I just leave. I know other souls don't but my group of souls do.
    I know I've been Jewish too. Not recently. And no nostalgia, on the contrary. I've had enough. But sometimes, when I'm feeling bad or lonely, I listen to Ladino music. I understand the words and I feel comforted again. Just a feeling of keeping alive part of 'me' but no political or religious drive.
    .
    Back to the question: Countries and cultures give you the opportunity to experience aspects of life. So there might be keepers (groups) that want to preserve these conditions as a service to other souls. Other groups (like mine) just flock around like birds, just to get an overview as a basis to create new options and possibilities.
    Needless to say that I don't believe in a patronizing God that rules the planet and the Universe. We are all some degrees of God without hierarchy.
     
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  5. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi Jim/Firefly,

    I guess one of the issues here is to what extent souls make binding determinations to remain in/with a particular supergroup, and to what extent they are simply directed there. As I noted on the prior thread, this interacts with the idea of soul determinations/vows explored here:

    http://reincarnationforum.com/threads/stories-and-consequences-of-past-life-vows.5630/

    But there is also something else that figures into the equation--the sense that some people have that they "are" something in a way that transcends the fact that they were (or weren't) born Irish, Chinese, Egyptian, etc. in this lifetime. That was also explored in a prior thread:

    http://reincarnationforum.com/threads/are-you-really-irish-chinese-or-and-why.5706/

    Orthodox Jews certainly seem to believe this. Likewise, are the Jews a special case in the sense that those who believe in reincarnation apparently believe they are called to be and will continue to be Jewish through all of their reincarnations (though they may have others that merely "pass through" like Firefly)? I don't believe this negates some time off in another ethno-religious group from time-to-time for those forming a Jewish supergroup, but this seems to be the overall tenor of what I have read and heard.

    If so, what about the rest of us? I assume we can also form such links, by vow or preference--which may be the case with Jim and may be common in a lot of indigenous/traditional cultures. Do we move beyond this tendency at some point, or are we simply absorbed by expanding supergroups? Is this what Western Civilization has done? Is this the reason that the types of people on a board like this report PLs all over the globe as opposed to those reporting PLs in the traditional cultures that Stevenson interviewed?

    Cordially,
    S&S
     
  6. AlexD

    AlexD aka Shadow

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    I've reincarnated in the East (Eastern Europe/middle East) for quite some time, and in the lapse of time that I could validate (20th century) I reincarnated twice in Romania. I have the deep feeling, though, that those two were just the last of a longer list of lives spent in the same geographical area (Transylvania). I can currently clearly remember just those two in which I opposed the communist regime for now.

    Aside from a deep, unexplainable energetic connection to Transylvania and the Southern Carpathians (a connection that I had the luck to renew in this life), I felt deeply connected to the people too. I felt closer to them than I've ever felt to my current countrymen. Yet people are people, all over the world. Is it simply a cultural thing? I reckon this might be my first experience in a Western country, at all. Yet part of me knows that it wasn't really a cultural choice, at least this time, I simply followed my friend who was already here. I do wonder if in my case I found myself involved in the evolution of Romania, as a democratic republic, because it was my soul group's choice, or simply my own.

    Personally, I think that reincarnating in Transylvania several times in a row created a deep energetic connection between my soul and that land/culture. BUT when a member of my soul group -with whom I have a particularly strong connection- decided to reincarnate in another country, I simply followed. I presume that my soul gave a greater importance to personal, individual connections, rather than simply sticking to a national supergroup. That, or maybe my objective was just to give my contribution to the fall of communism... after that happened, my presence there was probably not needed anymore.

    I still feel part of Romania but also of other places I've probably lived in before. I can't deny that at times I have felt like a stranger in my own country. But western society might just be a new step in my path, regardless of how I may long for the East now. I may try other countries in my future lives, and why not, maybe in my current life as well.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2018
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  7. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi Alex,

    I suppose that my interest in this area is part of a broader interest in "What lasts". We recently had an interested person with cancer ask about personal survival and what survived. I gave my thoughts that what lasted was what did not die with the body. Name, Sex, family, wealth, position, nationality, etc.-all seem like transient things, but a basic character/personality (though malleable and being slightly re-shaped by each successive lifetime) definitely appears to go forward.

    But, even on its face, this is an oversimplification. People appear to be associated with soul groups that move through time together. This is at least a very long-term arrangement even if it is not permanent. As I look back at my posts over the last few years, I realize that I have been looking into a variety of other things that if not permanent, at least have varying degrees of permanence. This started with gender. From what I can understand of Stevenson's findings, people predominantly incarnate in a single gender with cross-gender incarnations occasionally (apparently to give balance). Some others seem to deny this. However, if true, this would seem to reflect an underlying gender preference, which is (from my point of view) gendered. Then there was a question of adherence over multiple lifetimes to a particular ethnic, national, geographic and/or religious "supergroup". This certainly seems to be the case with traditional/indigenous cultures, and with Orthodox Jews from what little I know. This does not mean that such people will not periodically have lives outside of these supergroups. As a matter of fact, it seems to me that there may be an overall pattern of taking breaks for balance with regards to gender, soul groups, supergroup, etc. I have also known some folks on the board who strongly identified as "Irish" or "Chinese" or etc. despite the fact that they were not currently part of that culture/lineage (and sometimes did not even have most of their PLs there). So, it may sometimes be a type of self-identification that transcends a need to have repeated lifetimes in a particular supergroup.

    However, overall, it appears that there could be a whole variety of (at least) semi-permanent intermediate characteristics/structures that occupy the gap between individual souls and the totality of individual souls. These may shift and change with time, and as Firefly notes--may be a matter of agreement or preference that could change with time.

    Cordially,
    S&S
     
  8. Jim78

    Jim78 Senior Registered

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    I don't think anyone can say whether or not a soul made a binding determination or was directed to certain groups or to what extent S&S. That would involve proving or disproving the existence of a big planner and I find that only comes down to individual experience or belief.

    I never had a pull towards a particular culture but I did feel a pull towards Dublin city. I operated there in my last incarnation and I'm a native of the county of Dublin in my current incarnation. I always identified as Irish though and rebel music always had meaning to me. I knew what kind of man I was and I served my country in a selfless capacity. It was sobering to realise that that wasn't the first time I'd done it.

    I don't have lives spanning the globe so I don't know why others incarnate into different places. All I know is that if I hadn't of grown up Irish then I wouldn't have seen the extent of the evils my fight for Republicanism had caused. If Tone and Collins hadn't of been lionised heroes then their icons would not have been torn down for me and I needed icons torn down to help me see the evil that 'good' men do. Without my Irish incarnations I would have never learnt the error of my ways.
     
  9. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi Jim/Alex,

    Perhaps I am tip-toeing around the ideas of "mission" and "purpose". People on this board (and not on this board) struggle with the idea of their mission and/or the purpose of their current life. IMO, I think this is a very valid question. However, I think the question usually tends to be very individualistic and limited in scope. E.g., there is also the issue of continuing purpose/mission at the individual level across multiple lifetimes. In this regard, it certainly seems that people take on continuing missions/purposes that transcend a single life-time. Jim has had more than one lifetime in Ireland fighting for an Irish republic. Alex, fought against communism (though I can't remember at the moment whether this spanned more than one lifetime). That mission is completed and Alex now feels free to be elsewhere. How about you Jim?

    Others seem to believe they have an "occupational" purpose across multiple lifetimes--warrior, artist, etc. Often people see this mission or purpose as not just an individualistic determination, but as something they have been given to do. I.e., it is not merely a preference and individualistic determination, it is an "assignment". People often even express a sense of frustration in determining or remembering/accomplishing the mission/assignment they have been given for a particular lifetime. In any case, the language used strongly implies the existence of structures or beings who can give or at least approve a mission or assignment.

    Still, this is at the individual level--what about all the other groupings formed by individuals? Do they also have missions and assignments they are "supposed" to accomplish? If so, is this merely a decision formed by the composite of individuals composing them at any particular time, or is it something given to them or approved at some higher level? So, as to religions, do Buddhists have such a continuing mission/purpose approved or assigned at a higher level? Do Jews? What about countries? Does Ireland or India or Egypt? What about cultures? Eastern, Western, etc.?

    Cordially,
    S&S
     
  10. KenJ

    KenJ Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Yesterday was a good day for messages on the Masters of the Spirit World webpage, here is something that is related to this thread that may lend another perspective.
    "What is real
    May 1st, 2018
    QUESTION: Masters do we create our own reality? If so, then what is real? ~Angela, Canada

    ANSWER: All souls are composed of unconditionally loving energy. Everything in the universe is energy and energy is everything. It is amorphous – without form – unless it is given form through the intention of a soul who needs physicality in order to complete a desired lesson.

    If you never left the universe of unconditional love, you would not need a physical reality. It is only to complete your learning experiences that it is needed. When in a body form having a human experience, you are ruled by the ego, which demands the ability to rate, grade, and judge everything around you. So, you create the reality needed to fulfill your wishes.

    For this purpose, it is insufficient merely to have energy sensations around you. You need something that can be considered by those sharing this life with you, something that is visible to all.

    “Reality” in the physical sense has length, width, and depth. Regardless of an object’s appearance to you, it may be interpreted differently by others. The beauty or usefulness of a possession may be vital to you and frivolous to another. The need or desire for a situation will vary with the construction of one’s path.

    If you journey away from home, your reality is dictated by what area you enter. You can accept things as others intended them to appear, or you can provide your own interpretation. You may see an item as a work of art or a piece of junk, while its owner appreciates it as a chair.

    Reality is fluid; it changes to meet your needs. What is real is what you choose to see as being present, and its definition of purpose is as you choose to dictate. It is different for each human. When solidity is needed for an exchange between two individuals, it will be seen as such by both."


    From this perspective, would it matter if the agreements had a greater breadth than just between a small group? Perhaps it would just be something to join in with in order to get your individual experiences. I realize that channeled material is greeted with a great deal of skepticism, but I found it credible.
     
  11. Jim78

    Jim78 Senior Registered

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    I have an idea of my individual souls mission but the big picture eludes me S&S. When I first remembered reincarnation and I was suffering ego problems because of who I'd been I thought that it was my destiny to help further Ireland's interests. Now, after I've been humbled, I do wonder if there is still truth in that idea.

    I mean, I didn't just incarnate into times of conflict in one specific country...I was a leader again and again. Obviously some conscious decision was made by someone, whether my soul or a higher power or whatever, to incarnate into such positions for some reason. Considering the impact my lives have had on many souls surely my being destined to be those people has some bearing on someone other than me?

    Also, if my PL actions were wrong from my current perspective then how come I enjoy living in a Republic partly due to my PL contributions? Wrong may not be right but surely a democratic Republic is right?

    I wish I was done with the Irish problem or any other wide reaching problem S&S. I don't want the responsibility. I don't know why I was given the responsibility in the first place. I don't know why I had to be a leader. I just want to be anonymous Jim with average problems.

    It certainly seems like I've an occupational purpose. I resent that though because I've been slapped for being what I am. All I tried to do was put others first and I've been shown that I've been a bad person. At least I can enjoy living in the republic in peacetime. The republic was still a goal and a dream during my last two lives.

    Surely someone is planning this? Why would I now be learning a moral lesson if there is no higher morality? I've certainly spent my life reaching for something greater than myself. I doubt that the book stops here.

    I see it as an intricate, malleable structure. Every action has a purpose, every life has a plan, and we are all on this journey together, evolving emotionally and socially together. Why would we all be doing this? Why as individuals are we all on this journey together?
     
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  12. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi Jim,

    All of your conclusions, even where tentative, appear to be correct to me. At the least, they are firmly founded and deserve careful consideration as working hypotheses.

    Cordially,
    S&S
     
  13. baro-san

    baro-san Senior Member

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    I believe that we don't come here with earthly goals. I don't believe that we come here to advance humanity in any way. Heartwarming, and heart pumping, goals like the ones mentioned seem, to me, too earth centric to be a probable purpose for incarnating over eons. Not grasping the real reasons of our sojourn on Earth results in minimal, if any, progress, hence reincarnating over and over, forever in earthly terms.

    Each life has a lesson we learn, which can be summarized in one or two words like duty, humility, sacrifice, love, but that's not the purpose for which we incarnate.

    We incarnate here, on a physical plane featuring space and time, to learn to master our thoughts and emotions, because not being able to control them creates insurmountable problems when on an instantaneously thought responding environment. Space and time make the physical a much slower thought responsive environment. Learning to create what we wish, here, in physical, while mastering our thoughts and emotions, is the purpose of our repeatedly incarnating. This is an individual journey of each one of us.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2018
  14. Guillaume_D

    Guillaume_D Active Member

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    I'm interested in this topic as I try to understand how reincarnation of soul groups shaped our geopolitical world. I think there's no rule about whether a soul chose to reincarnate in the same ethnic group or not. Some souls seem to like staying in the same family or ethnic group, while some souls like to travel from one incarnation to another.
    In my many lives, I was incarnated (as far as I know) on 4 continents. I was predominantly in Europe, but I incarnated sometimes in Asia, Africa or America. Studying my incarnations and those of my soulmates and other cases, I think we can nevertheless conclude about spiritual filiations of some countries.
    For example I found there's a strong link between USA, France and England. Souls actually incarnated in one of these three countries seem to have often incarnated in one or another of these countries, mostly from Renaissance until present.
    Another example: I was surprised to read on this forum how many american people can remember incarnations as germans in WWI and II. In France people often find incarnations during this period, but rarely as germans. May it be concluded that there's a super soul group of world wars germans reincarnated in USA ?
    3rd example: I found that many people I'm talking with about reincarnation have incarnated in Renaissance Italy around 15th and 16th century. It seems that a super soul group from italian Renaissance has reincarnated in France and USA.

    These are just doubtful suppositions but I would like to know your opinions and remarks on this issue.
     
  15. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi Baro-san,

    It seems to me that different lessons and different skills are likely to be in the process of cultivation at different levels. At our level, I think what you outline is the primary purpose. So, I agree with you on that. But in the world of spirits we are still in kindergarten. Also, I don't know that our other ambitions and urges to change the world are not used and directed by others higher up, or that they are purposeless in the big scheme of things (especially when altruistically undertaken). So, I also would not discount what is being accomplished and learned by the type of efforts that Jim has undertaken.

    Also, from what I can tell, there are guides over soul-groups, and supervisory guides that handle multiple soul-groups and their guides, and so-forth up the ladder, layer after layer. (I'm going mostly on what I've read in Newton here). At some point some type of "super-guides" or something of the type will be responsible for overseeing and guiding huge numbers of sub-groupings, adding up to super-groups. Such "super-guides" are also not only learning, but accomplishing goals as part of their continuing development.

    So, why wouldn't they have goals that are far beyond the "kindergarten" ethical/personal development goals that we have while we're still bound to the wheel? I can easily imagine that learning to guide and develop large groups towards the light would be part of what they do. There is also something else to be taken into account here--the continued maintenance of the "school" itself. This is especially true now when humanity has the power to cause massive destruction and "blow-up" the school itself. So, this would also be something that such spirits would seek to avoid by directing humanity in certain ways.

    Anyhow, when we discuss spirits that are much farther up the ladder than we are, we are soon out of our depth. I think their thoughts and plans are far beyond our thoughts and plans. This could be a bit like comparing the sandbox work and finger painting of small children with the much more mature work of great engineers and artists, etc. So, I would not consider that all souls are bound to the same simple lessons and tasks that we are, nor that they do not use souls/spirits like Jim (or Washington, etc.) as part of larger plans and tasks than we could ever imagine.

    Cordially,
    S&S
     
  16. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi Guillame,

    I can only give you speculations at this point. Real proof would take a good deal more research and may be for future generations.

    However, at one pole, it seems that rebirth in traditional cultures, such as those Stevenson was working with in the East and Mid-East, had a tendency to occur close to the prior life both geographically and culturally. This does not mean that all did, just that this seemed to be the norm. Likewise, the other traditional cultures that I have read about that believed in reincarnation also considered that their ancestors came back to the tribe, and confirmed that over time (at least to their own satisfaction). The latter may be more probative than the former, as Stevenson tended to focus on the cases he could prove, which necessarily would occur in close proximity where he could locate all of the relevant witnesses. So, his research may appear to show a trend because the reincarnations occurring close by were the ones he could find and prove. This is something that will need further study.

    At another hypothetical pole, we have more modern cultures, that seems to thrive on change, novelty and exploration. This would certainly include Western Civilization, but I would hesitate to say that it is the only one. Once again, a tendency in these cultures to move around from life-to-life does not mean that there are not others in these cultures that tend to stay put a great deal more, but from reports on a board like this Jim is more the exception than the rule. Most seem to move around quite a bit. But once again, people that post on a board like this may be exceptional and at a different point in their spiritual development than others that have no interest in past lives and/or no memories of past lives.

    Consequently, at both poles (and in between), we can at best only speak in generalities. Plus, proof on the issues is not as clear as could be hoped. However, to my mind, there does seem to be some point in thinking that there are larger groupings of souls than a handful of souls forming an initial soul group. As noted in my prior post to Baro-san, the presence of guides charged with supervision of larger and larger groupings would also tend to indicate that. Likewise, from my own personal standpoint, I find it difficult to believe that there is not someone (or maybe more) in ultimate charge of this insane asylum, kindergarten, or whatever it might be called--if only to keep us from burning the place down.

    Cordially,
    S&S

    PS--I will not pretend to be free of religious inclinations on this point as well.
     
  17. baro-san

    baro-san Senior Member

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    Hi S&S,

    I doubt Newton's model. It is too Earth centric, and too anthropomorphic.

    It seems suspicious that all the subjects regressed by Newton's followers describe in the same way the afterlife, while all the subjects regressed by those believing in alien control describe in another, same way, as the subjects regressed by other followings describe in other different, same ways. I find probable that the hypnotists inadvertently influence their subjects' regressions, honestly not realising it. After all, each of us creates their own reality, mostly unconsciously. I can't think of any other explanation, which doesn't mean that there isn't ...

    In an infinite multi-plane Universe, the Earth's evolution, on a microscopic period of a few thousand years can't matter much. A cosmic accident will likely wipe out life on Earth, as probably happened several time already. The multi-plane Universe doesn't depend on that.

    To me, none of the anthropomorphic models of the multi-plane Universe can be right, as the Sun doesn't revolve around the Earth.
     
  18. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi Baro-san,

    I'm not familiar with the alien model you are discussing, though I do recall that alien life and living on other worlds as other intelligent species comes up with Newton's subjects. (That is another reason I think the restrictions on discussing off-planet incarnation on the board is a bit absurd). So, I don't know that there is anything particularly anthropomorphic and/or geocentric about what Newton found or reports. From what I can tell from Newton and others, souls/spirits incarnating as/in alien species are apparently being brought along towards the same general goals that we all are (with due allowance for differences).

    As to the Earth's continued existence, I can't see why it wouldn't matter to advanced beings. The existence of other worlds and options doesn't mean that inhabitable planets or intelligent species are a dime a dozen, nor does it necessarily dictate a cavalier attitude towards life on earth or anywhere else. I don't see why intelligent life and the planets that harbor it wouldn't be considered precious wherever they occur. At the very least, they provide multiple options for soul/spirit development. To me having no consideration or respect for life, especially intelligent life and the planets that bear it, it is exactly the opposite of what I would expect from advanced souls/spirits/beings.

    Cordially,
    S&S
     
  19. baro-san

    baro-san Senior Member

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    :)

    Our difference of opinions starts to sound like arguments between spouses ... One says something, the other one interprets it differently than how it was meant. Unfortunately, spousal arguments aren't recorded, so they can't replay it to figure out who misremembers.

    I didn't say, and didn't infer that. The way you perceived my post is different and beyond the point I intended to make.

    I stated some opinions. I neither intend to convince anybody, nor to get in prolonged contradictory discussions.
     
  20. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    OK :) Sorry I misunderstood you.
     

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