What and who are you?

Discussion in 'Reincarnation Questions' started by John Tat, Feb 2, 2015.

  1. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    John:


    The problem with your position is that it makes everything prior to, perhaps, the most immediate past life impossible to determine with any certainty. Every generation doubles the number of progenitors—i.e., 2 parents, 4 grand-parents, 8 greats, and so forth. Each of these will have, according to you, a shared storehouse of memories from—not just themselves--but all of the prior incarnations of all of their previous pro-genitors. One might be able to locate one’s most immediate past life if recent by process of elimination due to the fact that it was a life that could not have been lived by one’s parents (i.e., one’s progenitors) due to time constraints and obvious conflicts. However, after that, everything dissolves into a fog of possible sources for memories that would make it impossible to know one’s past lives.


    You say this problem is only in the human brain, which may be true. However, like you, most of the people on this board believe they are accessing memories and sources higher/deeper than the human brain as well. Also, though I hope you will not be insulted, I’ve long had some concern that you are not, in fact, in communication with your higher self, but with something else entirely. In fairness, you need to consider the possibility that your own source of information, like that of others, might be tainted and/or unreliable.


    Cordially,


    S&S
     
  2. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Tang:


    Having raised 5 kids and having been around innumerable more as well as having lived a long life without feeling constrained to adopt either the edicts of political correctness or traditional absolutes about the sexes, I can say that most of the differences between the sexes are innate, inborn, and apparent from earliest ages. In fact, everything I learned so many years ago about the differences between boys and girls and men and women have proved to be true—as generalities, not absolutes. The problems begin when what are indeed generalities and averages are turned into absolutes with all little boys or girls—no matter where they naturally fall on a masculinity/femininity axis, being forced towards the center of the bell curve for their sex (if they depart from the norm in the direction of the opposite sex).


    Traditionally, it has always been the “less” feminine female or “less” masculine male that is forced to conform with the norm, the hyper-feminine female or hyper-masculine male has “traditionally” been left alone or even exalted. Interestingly enough, the opposite is now true, with “modern” politically correct culture striving to force both genders towards some type of muddled middle, with the hyper feminine/masculine types being considered particularly deplorable and in need of social modification. Frankly, I can’t see this as an improvement. In fact, it forces even more folks away from what they most naturally are than the “traditional” approach.


    So it goes. Human society seems to always be looking for new ways to suppress natural individual differences and force people towards some type of idealized norm.


    Cordially,


    S&S
     
  3. Blueheart

    Blueheart Senior Member

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    Now, here is someone who clearly has not come across a Monster High doll or the trend in foot-long beards. Please, tell me where you shop, so I can experience this glorified muddled middle too. I can not find a kids tablet that is not pink or blue and even the LEGO sets are now hyper genderized.
     
  4. Blueheart

    Blueheart Senior Member

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    Back to the topic . . . I am a mother that has given birth to three girls. I have memories of being a man.


    In some lives, I ate meat. Now, I can not stand the stuff. Meat-eater or not, I was me and I am still me to this day.


    What is more, my oversoul is not at all confused, conflicted, or torn that now I am living as a vegetarian. It does not have a carnivore /herbivore identity.
     
  5. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi Blueheart,


    In terms of the innate differences between boys and girls (in general), I think my point is, indeed, proved by the toy aisle. Kids want to be what they are. The commercial establishment aims for the majority taste: where they can make the most money the easiest. This fact is lamented by the more politically correct, who keep trying to force dollies of some sort on boys and the opposite type of thing on girls (a minority taste at best).


    This is not to say that, as mentioned, more intermediate tastes should not have an outlet, and I think there is more of that around now than there used to be with pink tool kits and pink cowboy gun sets for girls on the toy aisle (at least here in the U.S.). I'm all for allowing for individual differences, not trying to force kids one way or another.


    Nonetheless, the bulk of boys still act like boys have always acted and want what boys have always wanted in terms of toys. Likewise, the bulk of girls continue to have average girlish proclivities. The human species is not so easily rearranged.


    BTW-I come from a family of 3 girls and 2 boys, I have 2 girls and 3 boys and now 2 granddaughters and one grandson. My youngest are now 15 and 17. So, you are correct that I don't spend as much time on the toy aisles as I used to; however, they look just as divided between pink and blue now as they used to look. My comments were not aimed at the commercial reality, but the misguided aspirational goals of the politically correct.


    Cordially,


    S&S
     
  6. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Blueheart,


    Just to be clear, I am not in agreement with John that individuals only incarnate in a single gender. Actually, I think there is good research (e.g., Stephenson) to show the opposite. However, unlike the average on this board--which probably does not represent a random sampling--Stephenson found that in the cases he reviewed the average was more like 80-20 with a majority of PLs in one gender or the other (rather than 50-50). Likewise, I remain agnostic in terms of whether that which incarnates (insert your preferred terminology here: spirit, soul, overself, etc.) is gendered or genderless. However, it seems clear to me that cross-gender incarnations do take place. I tend to think that one of the measures of spiritual maturity is the ability to take such incarnations in stride, rather than to be traumatized or thrown off by them. But that is just a feeling on my part.


    Cordially,


    S&S
     
  7. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Blueheart,


    Sigh! I hate to be a bore, but I feel like I have to clarify one more thing. My initial post re sexual differences was to Tanguerra based on what I saw as an overemphasis in her posts on socialization in the production of male/female differences. I think socialization has been used to emphasize and enforce differences traditionally (and sometimes oppressively) and that now there are attempts to use it for the opposite purpose (just as oppressively), but the differences are simply there in most people.


    However, as mentioned in my prior post, I have a feeling that one of the indicia of spiritual maturity is the ability take cross-gender incarnations in stride. This also seems to come with a degree of adaptability that spans the differences and seems to be able to more harmoniously integrate male/female qualities into life (no matter what the current physical gender). Farther than that I have not been able to go in my thoughts on the subject, but it seems to cover many of those on this board who remember numerous cross-gender incarnations.


    Apologetically,


    S&S
     
  8. John Tat

    John Tat Senior Registered

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    Hi Seaand Sky


    Firstly I will address your concern that I'm not in contact with my spirit/pure self but something else entirely.


    If you mean it is something evil or somehow bad then that could only be the opinion of a true believer in a god, who believes there god is the protector of everything they believe is true good and right


    In my opinion it goes to the deep seated insecurities of believers who have an uncontrollable need to both believe and challenge and yes even label someone who has different beliefs to them (whatever those beliefs are) as being something and/or someone evil


    You also post with no references to what you are saying is your belief and/or opinion, for example..


    You talk about cross gender life's as though they are a fact and you then give your opinions on something that is not factual to begin with


    Never forget there was a time when millions upon millions of people believed it was a fact the world was flat proving that millions of people can believe something is fact when it never was to begin with


    Yes, it's my belief it is next to impossible to know what previous life's you have lived. As I have said before its all about the growth and development of our spirit/pure self and what the physical brain believes is not relevant


    It's my belief our interruptions of previous life memories are totally depended on the capacity of the physical brain. It does not matter where the memories are sourced from the physical brain with it's limited capacities must interpret those memories for us. Again that does not matter because our sprits/pure self's knows if it was previous physical bodied life they had or not


    Its midday on Saturday here. I was going to post a different post before I read what you had to say. Because I live on my own and work all week Saturday is my supermarket day and cleaning the house day. Sunday is my day of rest?????. I haven't even had a shave or shower yet so the other post will have to wait for another day


    Regards


    John Tat
     
  9. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    John,


    No, I’m not trying to proselytize you in terms of God or anything pertaining to God. I am urging you to broaden your view of what the universe contains. You almost always talk about your “higher self” in terms and using descriptions of activities and interactions that are usually used in referring to another person, not to oneself. I think that is because what you are interacting with isn’t yourself. This doesn’t mean that you’re being influenced or interacting with something evil. A great number of people on a board like this will claim to have “spirit guides” they interact with and that such entities provide guidance and help. Some claim they are spirits like us that have moved beyond the need or requirement for further incarnation and seek to help others up the ladder. I don’t know about that, but the point is that if we are essentially something non-physical there are almost certainly other non-physical entities in the universe.


    At one point you blocked some memories of your past life because your aversion to anything having to do with a God made you want to block out your own memories of your own PL position on the matter. I am suggesting that you’ve thrown out the baby with the bathwater. In order to avoid a divine entity in the spirit realm you have thrown out the idea that there might be other non-divine entities there. In fact, you seem to have become almost entirely self-referential on matters of this type.


    However, as far as I can tell, no one claims infallibility for spirit guides—they are not divine—just entities that have a higher level of knowledge and wisdom than we have. Hence, you should not necessarily be surprised if your “higher self” can err in some respects, even though much wiser than you in others. BTW: (1) none of this discounts the idea that there might be evil entities in the spirit realm as well, but that isn’t the subject at the moment; and (2) your idea about basic gender differences at the level of our “true” self is supported in a variety of traditional and non-traditional sources. It is just that most of those sources also indicate that cross-gender incarnation can occur as part of the “educational” process (or sometimes even as punishment). I’ll stay neutral on the latter, but the former makes sense to me.


    Cordially,


    S&S
     
  10. Mere Dreamer

    Mere Dreamer Senior Registered

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    It seems to me that the elephant is once again being experienced in very different ways by two unique individuals. Perhaps one of you is handling the trunk and the other the leg of this creature we call reincarnation?


    It seems painfully obvious that the differences between the perspectives here are becoming divisive rather than simple observations or suggestions. We don't even know the subject well enough to identify our personal false beliefs, so how can we define the margin of error for each other?


    None of us can communicate our own "tangible" experiences to another in exactly the way they were given to us. We only handle our own journeys and cannot direct the paths others will take, even if each might eventually see what the other once saw.


    This integration of truth through experience is meant to develop between the incarnate being and the spirit that guides each of us. Others are part of the process, but cannot define the process.


    Everyone here has had valuable experiences. We all have a deep investment in our search for truth and understanding. I hope we can trust each other to seek truth, and count on the spiritual guidance that makes these experiences possible to help us progress in ways that fit our personal needs.


    In the end, the mystery is vast and and somewhat removed from our more tangible pursuits in life. We cannot speak in absolutes.


    Like travelling through a vast country we may each have experienced a different city, road, or terrain. This doesn't mean it isn't the same country, but that we don't have the whole map within our personal experience yet. I don't think we need to know it all at once, either, so long as we continue the journey.


    Who am I? I don't even know the full answer to this yet, so how can I speak for anyone else?


    It is important to leave the space around our known "lack of knowing what we don't know" open for each other.
     
  11. John Tat

    John Tat Senior Registered

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    Mere Dreamer you are right about how we interpret our own experiences. But what SeaAnd Sky are doing is not divisive. A good healthy debate is good for both of us as well as I believe the forum. This is not like when I was young and I would get into fight in a bar, and the girl/women I was with would run away crying. It's nothing like that


    Different to what others may experience my communications with my pure self/spirit is an anguish task. It is in no ways easy. It can sometimes take weeks even months for me to gain some understanding about was is being communicated to me. It's never just one thing at a time, but most of the time I have to ask over and over again meditation after meditation to gain some understandings of the communications.


    Its interesting to me he never uses such words such as beliefs, facts, or truths. It appears as though he has no knowledge of those words. I think they must be terms that only have meaning in the physical. In all of his communications when the need is there something is either right or it's wrong


    Everything is black and white to him.


    It took a long time for me to gain some understanding of the following, and it is only "some" understanding


    It is now my belief that our consisiouness is also the consisiouness of our spirits/ pure self's


    It has dual purpose. That is our connection between the physical, the spiritual and reincarnation. They are all connected through our consciousness


    There is of course more to the physical us than our consciousness just as there is with our spirits/ pure self's, but our consciousness is the integral part and the connector that makes it all possible


    The following is somewhat controversial.


    Our consciousness does have gender. Nothing like physical gender but it does have gender. When I first understood this communication I did not belief it, I thought I had misunderstood


    I asked over and over again mediation after meditation was this right? In the end it was communicated to me something like "If you only what to hear from me what you want to hear and not was is right or wrong then we are wasting our time"


    I then asked how does our consciousness get gender? After weeks and weeks I gained a very small glimpse of how it happens. Our consciousness gender is solely determined by its purpose. I don't fully understand that, hopefully one of you do


    I will write another post later
     
  12. Mere Dreamer

    Mere Dreamer Senior Registered

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    Very well. I can accept that this particular form of rhetoric isn't as close to a personal wound for you as it is for me. I can handle intense discussion, but I do not handle others' attempts to define my own experience "for" me well at all. Heh. When people begin to debate without respecting my ability to know my experience better than they do, I strongly wish to defend the right to feel what I feel and think what I think, and to go through the process of being wrong or right and learning whether I am wrong or right by experience.


    I also wish to protect others from that particular debate technique as well. I'm glad you handle it better than I do.

    I do agree with the separation of spiritual gender from physical gender. It seems evident to me that physical gender doesn't always match the cultural trajectory and common characteristics of the gender people know themselves to be. They struggle with the disassociation between their purpose and the path they are guided toward by their social circles. Even if they are comfortable being male or female, they may still challenge their roles in society because their purpose calls them beyond the commonly accepted framework, or into relationships that break caste and other social strata.


    It also seems clear that individuals have multiple spiritual purposes for living, as shown in the patterns and lessons of their remembered lives. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there are more than two spiritual genders in the end. We usually need teamwork to get anywhere meaningful. (I'd say "always", but there's a chance someone once independently did something without any help or encouragement ... maybe.)


    Our incarnate consciousness doesn't always have hold of our ingrained purpose in the way our higher consciousness does. Though they do function together as a single unit as seen from outside of time, within time I may not always recognize my own participation in those plans.


    Also, we are all part of the network of consciousness, and our individual purposes fit together like puzzle pieces to create larger designs. I have a feeling these designs function (in a fractal way) to interconnect themselves in even greater patterns ... until all of consciousness actively forms the whole of reality by experiencing it at every level.
     
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  13. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Mere,


    I think you mischaracterize my interactions with John. First, though I listen to what he says, I also try to “read between the lines” in terms of what he says. The latter is an exercise in intuition as much as anything else, and may err or sometimes prove successful. Either way, I am not trying to force a viewpoint on John, though I do sometimes suggest alternative interpretations based on my overall gestalt of a whole variety of posts he has made on a particular subject. (BTW, this is not the first thread on which John has discussed this issue, my statements are based on many descriptions I have read by him of his interactions with his “higher self”). Second, John is certainly not going to be browbeaten by me into anything. We are both tough opinionated old coots who will decide what we want to decide on issues we face. He hasn’t said anything so far to offend me and I don’t think I’ve said anything to offend him. I think we’re both too thick skinned for that.


    Also, you seem to be projecting me to be some kind of domineering character or someone who has domineering tendencies. You are incorrect in this. Frankly, though this might not be much of an exercise of intuition on my part, this indicates to me your concern both about being subject to such characters and that others might be subject to such characters. This is not a bad thing, but you’re missing the mark in this particular case. Just so you’ll know, I’m pretty much considered a push-over by the people I care about, as my family could tell you (though the two teens still at home might disagree).


    Cordially,


    S&S
     
  14. Mere Dreamer

    Mere Dreamer Senior Registered

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    I often read into situations based on my own intuition, and add my perspective in hope of helping to clarify someone's viewpoint, also. I do understand what you're saying S&S. As you can see I am easily concerned at times, and it isn't always necessary. I still react, because sometimes it is needed and I'd rather moderately offend someone tough enough to handle it than fail to protect someone who can't handle it ... if that makes sense?


    I didn't see you as domineering, though I was concerned with your phrasing in several areas, and I don't think I'm the only reader who felt that way. *sigh* Sometimes telepathy would be convenient because then I could project the nuance that written words don't always convey. Now that I understand you more clearly I won't worry about it.


    If you and John can handle it because you're "tough old coots" as you say, then I admire that in you two. I'm glad you understand each other.


    I love this conversation. It fascinates me. And the differences and similarities in the views shared here are challenging me to think about different aspects of our existence and confirming to me what I currently believe ... and what I don't yet understand. So I do thank everyone for that.
     
  15. Blueheart

    Blueheart Senior Member

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    Hello SeaAndSky,


    Just so that we are clear, I understand what you have been saying, and on the whole, I agree with you.


    That said, I may have over simplified before. Upon reflection, I do have memories of Bardo and there were some entities there that presented themselves with a gender - sort of. For example, one always wanted to wear a red dress. Most (people, souls, spirits, oversouls?) were just a sort of egg-like shape with a light in the center.


    What disturbs me about your writings is the use of the phrase politically correct. What you call politically correct, I see as being polite. (Not using the N word, not building boys up by pushing girls down.) When you write about them you are writing about me. Only, I am not forcing, oppressing, or suppressing boys to be more like girls or girls to be more like boys. Let me assure you, I have no aspirational goals to push all people to a genderless middle, nor am I deploring or lamenting that is not going to happen. I would suggest to you, that you have built a straw-man. Consider what you said below:

    Boys play with dolls ALL THE TIME. No forcing has been required. They are called action figures and toy soldiers.
     
  16. tanguerra

    tanguerra Moderator Emeritus

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    Let's just try to keep the personal comments out of the debate all the same, shall we? There is no need for them in an abstract discussion of ideas. People are entitled to their viewpoints and their opinions, their religious beliefs, or lack of them. Even if others think they are completely 100% 'wrong'.


    Please don't try to guess what others are thinking or feeling either. In my experience, people are projecting their own feelings onto the other nine times out of 10, and that's when they are having real life interactions. Only relying on the written word, it is even harder to gauge someone else's personality and mood. There is no reason to assume that just because one person doesn't think the other would be offended and can 'handle' criticism that it's OK to be harsh or judgemental.


    Please remember, strong discussions can be had without getting personal. It's best to just stay on topic and John has raised an interesting one.


    Thanks


    T.
     
  17. tanguerra

    tanguerra Moderator Emeritus

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    Gender is only one aspect of John's topic, but while we're here....


    Fashions in gender identity come and go and vary from one culture to the next. I assume your remarks above relate to 'white' European / US society in the 20th century, but even in the past 100 years, even just in that small segment of society, the ideal of gender identity has changed several times.


    In the 1920s, an androgynous style was all the rage. Men wore pastel colours dressed comparatively flamboyantly. Sexual ambiguity was very much 'in vogue', especially with the Bohemian crowd. Women were encouraged to be boyishly thin and cut their hair short, even cross dressing - remember Marlene Deitrich in the Blue Angel?


    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]


    In the 1930s, with the war coming, women were even more masculine, adventurous and outspoken. Think Katherine Hepburn and Amelia Earhart, Gertude Stein and Dorothy Parker among others. In the 1950s it all turned around again after the war, then before long women's lib came along, and androgyny was back in again and so on and so forth.


    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]


    If one must make generalisations about this kind of thing, it's probably safe to say that there is always an element of society that likes to know what 'normal' is, in order to conform to it. But 'normal' is a moveable feast, always changing and always open to interpretation.
     
  18. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi Blue,


    I have no personal knowledge on the subject of the gender (or lack thereof) in the reincarnating entity (just things I’ve read on the subject). It makes sense to me, but I could probably be swayed in the opposite direction by research or an author I respected. Consequently, I appreciate hearing about your experiences


    In terms of “political correctness” I think we are obviously not working from the same definition. What you set forth as examples of political correctness are, to me, merely examples of common courtesy/fairness and therefore exactly the opposite of some of the more common and objectionable acts of political correctness tolerated and/or encouraged, e.g., on college campuses today. (I’m thinking about speakers being shouted down or otherwise prevented from speaking and a long list of other acts that basically make a mockery of concepts of freedom of speech, inquiry, religion, association, etc.).


    Legally speaking, a doll is a jointed (or articulated) human figurine. Action figures are technically “dolls” and there are legal cases on the subject. This is one of the reasons that I used the term “dollies”—which I think conveys a very different message and image.


    Cordially,


    S&S
     
  19. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Tanguerra,


    I think re your post #36 you may wish to read the 1st paragraph of John's post #31.


    John,


    I'll PM you. I think we'll make more progress that way.


    Cordially,


    S&S
     
  20. tanguerra

    tanguerra Moderator Emeritus

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    I am not singling anyone out in particular for being 'naughty'. My remarks apply to everyone. It is better to stay on topic and avoid making personal comments is what I'm saying.
     

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