What makes you feel someone's FPL is real?

Discussion in 'Reincarnation Questions' started by Petrichor, May 23, 2020.

  1. Petrichor

    Petrichor Senior Member

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    I'm sorry for the length.

    I know this discussion could turn heated, but my intention is not to start a debate of any sort. There are no right or wrong answers to this question. I'm simply interested in people's subjective perception. What is it that makes some cases feel more believable to you than others? Is it simply the amount of hard evidence or do other things factor into it?

    This question was inspired by considering my own bias, and I'm sort of inviting other people to do the same if you'd like to.

    Whenever I have met someone outside this forum, elsewhere online or irl, who had past life memories, it was always of a famous one. As has often been discussed on this forum, it's not believable that everyone had a famous past life, or that the famous one is the one everyone remembers. Especially since there are many people out there who claim the same FPL.

    I realized that for me the simple fact that these people wanted to announce their famous past life to the world, made them seem not believable to me. And another thing that made me immediately disregard someone as a probable impostor was lack of depth. Not necessarily a lack of concrete hard memories, but a lack of depth.

    None of the people I've run into have had irrefutable evidence, none of them have remembered something that wasn't in a history book, and confirmed it to be true. So, out of those people the ones who were humble and critical of themselves, and had insight into that past life, were more believable to me.

    However, reflecting upon these things, I have realized that this is my personal bias. I'm a shy person, and I seek depth, but not everyone has insight into their emotions or mistakes in their current life, so why would they have insight into their past life? Also, some famous people were indeed famous at least partially because they yearned to be. Why couldn't they still yearn for it in this life?

    This reflection got me thinking that sometimes, people also dismiss a FPL claim because it seems too convenient. Let's say someone claimed to be a famous musician, but that person also happened to have listened to said musician's work a lot since childhood because their parents were fans, and so that person had heard a lot about that musician's life before getting their memories. Then another person who claims to be the same musician, has remembered a lot of things before reading anything about them. Even so, the first one could still be the real one, and the other one could be a fan of theirs, from a past life. It has been pointed out in this forum a lot, I'm sure, but my point is that the real one might not even be the one that seems more believable, because when people start getting past life memories, they are most likely not trying to make a "case" of it that would seem believable to an outsider's eye.

    My point with this is not to come to the simple conclusion that "only cold hard facts count" because yes, that is true, but the way we determine cold hard facts is not always good, and we might miss a lot of things because of our personal bias. And that's my point in a nutshell. I simply think it's good for anyone to be aware of their own bias, that we are critical of ourselves when we are faced with a FPL claim, and not only ciritcal of the person who claims it. I'm not accusing anyone of not doing this in forum, I simply thought maybe someone could gain something from my reflection.

    It has been acknowledged that a lot of people with FPL memories are afraid to discuss them because of all this. Kind of like the MBTI theory were everyone wants to be an INFJ so the real INFJs leave INFJ spaces and start to think maybe they're not one. Weird comparison maybe, but I kind of really hate when this kind of thing happens. Because people go like "Oh another INFJ" and "Oh another famous person" in a really similar way and I wish people had more patience, even though it is hard to take everyone seriously.

    I just wanted to:
    1) Be critical of how I think.
    2) Say to everyone with FPL memories out there that I'm on your side and you deserve to be taken seriously, and if your memories turn out to be of something else than you originally thought, that's FINE, and you shouldn't feel shame about it.

    I'm not saying there aren't people who are in it just for attention, but for the sake of the ones who really have something to share, who are suffering because they can't do it, and from whom we could gain something, I just thought to write my thoughts out. Maybe if they felt like all the criticism wasn't always put upon just them, they'd feel more safe. I'm not saying this is how they feel, but it could be. Even if there ARE already a lot of people who do think critically of themselves, I just thought maybe if a lot of people wrote those thoughts out in the same thread, someone might gain confidence from it.

    Sorry, this is getting convoluted. I really hope no one takes anything I said personally or as an accusation, because none of it was inspired by anyone on this forum.

    Thank you if you read all of this!

    -Petrichor
     
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  2. SeekerOfKnowledge

    SeekerOfKnowledge Learner

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    My usual attitude towards people with FPLs is "in dubio pro reo" as "famous" people reincarnate, too and someone WILL have been them. As for who is most "convncing", it's not just hard facts. Some things are hard to impossible to verify. Personally, I'd rather believe a Napoleon or Cleopatra who remembers details that aren't in the history books, too, but who knows who is the "real deal"?
    It's also how a person comes across. More gut feeling here.

    Totally possible that the "real" incarnation is none of the "claimants" but either doesn't talk or doesn't remember. Or isn't aware of their past ID or doesn't believe it and dimisses it immediately.

    Interesting comparison with the INFJ. What I sometimes find hard to understand is why people would actually WANT to be an INFJ or have a FPL... just because it is "special" in a way? Wouldn't someone who has had such an experience and has reincarnated as someone not so famous understand that there is nothing special about it? Maybe this is my own bias here.

    The only personal reason I see why I would WANT to have a FPL would be that in that case I would have already had this experience and won't have to go through it in a future life.
     
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  3. Eva1942

    Eva1942 A Walking Enigma...

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    I’ll write a better, longer reply later, but for the FPL memories I have of being Queen Nefertiti, I have memories and know things about her that not even the most esteemed Egyptologist knows about.

    Like for the fact that she never really agreed to her husband’s religion change and still worshipped the old religion as well as Atenism. That she raised her surviving daughters to have a dual religion knowledge and never once pushed Atenism onto her daughters. I even found validation for a memory I had where I told my surviving daughters that when we died, and they were Pharaoh and Queen, they were free to make their own decisions whether they continued the worship of Atenism, or to return to Thebes and continue worship of the ‘old religion’. I actually found out that my surviving daughters DID RETURN TO THEBES and lived in Malkata Palace (Amenhotep III/my first husband)’s Palace.

    Why don’t I talk about my FPL’s? Because I don’t want attention. I don’t want to be treated any differently, and I have had my fair share of ‘boring’ lives too. I just consider them another life I have lived, and it doesn’t matter whether I lived a life of royalty or I lived a life as the average girl on the street, a life is a life and the lessons I learned have made me who I am today.

    By the way, last time I did a personality test, my results were INFP-T.

    Eva x
     
  4. Petrichor

    Petrichor Senior Member

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    I probably thought of this INFJ drama because I'm an INFJ (which people will atutomatically question lol) and I too think it's silly to want to be one. I guess it is indeed the label people crave, being "special". It's the popular narrative that people want to be a part of, I suppose, which doesn't have much to do with real normal average persons who happen to be INFJ. But I think some people also just read the type description somewhere and relate to it, or they take a test that tells them they're INFJ and they believe it without any further research. And no, I'm not going to turn this into a talk about typology, I'm saying this because I think it's the same for some people who think they had a famous past life. They relate to a famous person strongly, so they think they must have been them, and don't really think about it through. Or they have a vague memory of some event and when they research it they identify with a historical figure mostly just because they are the only person who was there that the world paid any attention to so there isn't another clear figure to indentify with. Some people just don't really do their research, and it isn't really a call for attention but rather results from just being a little naive that leads them to believe certain things. I think it's understandable and innocent in nature, and I hope that when this happens, and those people find out that they weren't who they thought they were, it would be because other people helped them on the way to finding the truth themselves, not because other people were immediately throwing stones at that person.

    I admit I'm also inclined to think a person who was famous would understand it's not necessarily a good or more meaningful experience than a more unkown life. But maybe that could also be why someone, in some cases, who was previously famous would want to be famous again. If they were naive enough to think being famous would be glorious, and then they became famous and it wasn't, but in the next life they still didn't stop believing that it could be. Maybe they became even more adamant to make a good famous life for themselves in the next life. People's motivations are so different and all FPLs are so different as well. I'm sure people's experiences of fame vary greatly, not only because there are different kinds of fame, but also because our individual dispositions vary so greatly.
     
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  5. Petrichor

    Petrichor Senior Member

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    I appreciate your perspective! Can I ask, does the way your own memories have come to you, influence the way you think about other people's FPL memories?
     
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  6. Speedwell

    Speedwell Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I did have to look up the abbreviations used here. I got FPL = famous past life. The other stuff, it kind of lost me, even after I'd looked up the abbreviations MBTI and INFJ, I was still not any clearer.

    Other than the jargon, I thought the first post from Petrichor was thoughtful and balanced. Definitely some good sense there. Though in the end I tend towards a view that most of this stuff is meaningful on a personal level, demonstrating it to others is usually not the important part.

    While I think it's important that reincarnation cases are studied scientifically in order to broaden acceptance in the academic and scientific fields of human beings not as mere machines made of chemicals, but having a real inner existence, deserving to be accepted as genuine and not just an illusion. Some scientists hold that consciousness itself doesn't exist, but is a mere illusion. And they say that with a straight face, while denying their own existence. Placed in that context, we, society as a whole, need all the counterbalancing evidence we can get, to bring some practical common-sense into the rarefied and bizarre world occupied by such academics.

    In that context, the famous ones have a sort of mid-ground. On the one hand, it is often said rather glibly, and without much thought, that famous cases don't count, as the information is too readily come by in other ways. On the other hand, there may be quantities of documentation of minor, trivial details, which are simply not recorded and preserved in the case of ordinary past lives. Some of these obscure and trivial details would certainly not be well-known, not even to an obsessive fan or researcher. It can take the passage of time for hidden details to be brought into the light, for example locked away in some dusty archive which no-one has visited for a long time, or turning up during archaeological excavations and so on.

    Personally though, I take the view that much of the evidence is not visible and cannot be demonstrated or shared with others. That is, the emotional feelings or inner state of mind. This is something which may constitute the most significant part of the evidence. And one is left with the difficulty of trying to match this hidden interior life, against a presumed or inferred inner life of the supposed past-life person.

    In the latter case, though there is nothing to show, no hard evidence to produce and put on display, it may be that it does not match the usual expectations. Sometimes I read biographies of famous people, and each one gives a different version, a different interpretation of the inner self of that person. For example I've long been fascinated by Joan of Arc, and there are many accounts of her life. I came across one in recent years which, because of modern-day belief systems, was unable to give any real credence to the spiritual descriptions which Joan herself gave, but instead attempted to use modern psychological theories. It seemed to me that the author was simply incapable of putting him/herself into the time-period and thought-processes of the original era, and was instead re-imagining it viewed through 21st-century eyes. The result seemed to be lacking, it didn't really do justice to the nature or character of Joan.

    I guess what I'm saying, is that we may not be in any position to assess the validity or otherwise of a presumed past life, since the inner world of the current person cannot be readily shared, and the inner world of the past-life may be unimaginable.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
  7. Eva1942

    Eva1942 A Walking Enigma...

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    I think that everyone is entitled to be believed about their own FPL’s, and the way people express them or ‘tell them’ influences me a lot on whether to believe them or not.

    But what I do have a problem with is that people that FPL’s or Royalty, think they were easy lives. I’ve had at least three FPL’s that I am aware of and/or had memories for/to and they were by no means easy. I could go on and on, but I don’t want to send the thread off topic.

    Eva x
     
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  8. Jim78

    Jim78 Senior Registered

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    Even if a person has memories not in the history books how does that prove to others the reality of their claim? If its not recorded it can't be validated. At best it can be viewed as a logical extrapolation of behaviour and character that an outside observer ASSUMES to be possible. It can only be subjective interpretation.

    There really is no way to prove to others one has an FPL. It simply comes down to others opinions. I have talked about things not recorded by history but I can't prove that to anyone. I simply know...

    Also I don't know what INFJ means.
     
  9. Petrichor

    Petrichor Senior Member

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    Sorry to everyone who isn't familiar with MBTI. It's not a very important part of my reflection. :D
     
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  10. Eva1942

    Eva1942 A Walking Enigma...

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    Actually I find the Myer-Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI) very interesting.

    Eva x

    For those who don’t know, here’s a video about the MBTI:
     
  11. Speedwell

    Speedwell Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I tend to resist such classification systems. I might make an analogy with the Ptolemaic system of astronomy. It was a system which had its uses. But once one becomes familiar with such a way of thinking, it may become harder to conceive of other ways of viewing reality. I don't mean that as a perfect analogy, such things never are, sooner or later the comparison breaks down.
     
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  12. Klaud

    Klaud Senior Member

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    If there's tangible evidence to their FPL claim, I'll believe it. If it's just something they feel, I'm a little skeptical. That's not to say I'm completely dismissive, just skeptical. Jim made an excellent point in saying that if it's not recorded, it isn't provable.

    I've seen two different people on this forum claim with conviction to be Julius Caesar. Which one is credible?

    Personally I do have an INFJ personality type and being special means nothing to me. I want to make the world better, even if I don't get acknowledged for it.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
  13. Jim78

    Jim78 Senior Registered

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    Hi Klaud.

    I know what you mean about multiple claimants and who to believe.

    I myself know of many claimants to one of my lives and two claimants to another.

    Personally I want to utterly destroy and humiliate them. When I read their 'memories' I get insulted because they subscribe such banal, mediocre thought processes to what my past selves were thinking and what was motivating them.

    For me personally they come across as being jokes.

    That's just my impulses though and considering I was a conqueror in both of those lives hardly surprising.

    As for who to believe in multiple claimants I tend to believe the one who can stand their ground, point and laugh....at least when it comes to aggressive lives.

    All the other claimants to my lives I've read have been shrinking violets, delusional, insecure cowards. That wouldn't be expected from those lives therefore they are mistaken IMO.
     
  14. Scavenger

    Scavenger Senior Member

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    Sometimes I wonder where's the line where an unknown life becomes famous. What's the exact amount of information that makes a life famous? If having a wikipedia page and short appearances in books counts, then yes, my WWII life can be called famous. But I can walk around Budapest (where my PL self served for months and had visible impact on people's lives), ask people if they know this officer and I won't be able to find a single one (except for WWII geeks maybe). So was it a famous life or not? Good question. My luck is that even though there's enough data to read, they're mostly raw data with big gaps. And there's always space for personal memories to fill up those gaps and connect dots. But as Jim said, if something is not recorded, it isn't provable. I won't be able to use those scenes if I want to validate my life to somebody.

    The time period can be problematic too. If an FPL is from the 20th century and you recalled a memory not present in the history books, you can still try to describe the place where the event happened and if you're enough lucky, photos or videos would prove you were right. But if I try to decsribe the look of - for example - a long disappeared monastery's library, I don't know where to start with validations, since the place is in ruins, there were no photos back then and chances are high that the room didn't appear on paintings either. Due to the lack of accurate data, lives in medieval/ancient/prehistoric times have more space for personal, unwritten memories and feelings, but on the other hand, it is what makes it harder to validate such a life. More like, harder to convince others.

    When it comes to descriptions of a famous person from a certain era, it can be influenced by many circumstances. Medieval chroniclers, the people around the famous person, the historians of the 19th century and then a contemporary historian would describe the same person in several different ways. And there's a chance the famous person him/herself would laugh at those descriptions and say "You don't even know me!". However, contemporary historians try to use new methods to be less subjective and biased. But there will always be gaps that only the famous person and his/her reincarnation can fill up. There were several historical figures in my country who left behind tons of letters, but every single letter was about formal subjects and it's impossible to get the pesronality of that historical person. So there are endless data, but no "soul" in these researchable documents. But again, the unwritten memories would not convince strangers, but they would give the right emotional support and feedback to the researcher who had that exact FPL. And after all, it shouldn't be a competition for approvals by as many strangers as possible. It must be about the personal growth, but it's something we all know. ;)
     
  15. Cat1965

    Cat1965 Time flies by with such wickedness..

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    I adore Eva:) And i envy her super clear memories when i grapple with all the haze that surrounds my pl's. On another note I am sure there are many fake FPL claimers. Hell it is not easy to remember the past and I am sure some people just get confused. Some of my lives are clear and some are NOT. I was never famous although i think i may have been the child of someone famous more than once. Which of course is certainly possible. I firmly believe that some lives end too painfully for our souls to remember. And sure lots of people want to claim they are a fpl for who knows what reasons.
    But than there are people like Eva who remembers thing so above and beyond. Eva did you use any particular regression techniques? i can't remember what i ate last week for dinner never mind the details from a life from ancient eqypt . It is rather funny that twice in my life older woman have come up to me telling me i was Egyptian royalty. Mind you i am blonde with blue eyes. I will never forget these strangers. The randomness of it all. I have no memories of being a queen like they said, But a daughter of one sure. However short that life was.
    Guys i have attempted listening to self hypnosis youtube videos but i got nowhere. I think the key is zero interruptions which is impossible these days. Hopefully in 2021..lol
     
  16. Eva1942

    Eva1942 A Walking Enigma...

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    Aww shucks... :oops: You have to got remember that I’ve been researching all my past lives for years. And my Ancient Egyptian lifetimes I do remember very little, it just seems like I’ve remembered a lot because I’ve pieced it all together over the years :)

    There was one I used, and it was very vague. All it literally told me was this: “get in a comfortable position. Tell your conscious mind you’re going to sleep. Then call on your Guides.” That was all it said.

    It helps to have a good connection with your Guides and your chakras are healthy. Even I have periods where I don’t remember anything. I even had to ask what day it was yesterday! *facepalm* I’m not a vegan/vegetarian, I’m not a hippy, I’m just a girl who has a thin veil and connection with her Guides. Really, it all depends what you and Guides chose for you, and if you don’t remember any FPL’s then obviously the lessons learned in that lifetime have been taught and you don’t need ‘revision’.

    Eva x
     
  17. Klaud

    Klaud Senior Member

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    Honestly same. I wish I had that kind of clarity. Mine always come in bits and pieces that I have to string together, but Eva's seem pretty clear.

    Most of my PL were like yours though. I haven't seen a single one that's even remotely well known. They've all been lost to time due to a lack of record keeping. My English one might be traceable through baptism records if I could ever get his name, but he certainly wasn't famous.

    Self hypnosis doesn't work for me either. My body isn't having it lol. Meditating and thinking of historical places and times that interested me on a deep level was a lot more effective.
     
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  18. Elle C.

    Elle C. Active Member

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    I rarely claim any of them, much less known people. On here is the first time I've mentioned most in one place, and I left one out because everyone knows her and there is someone famous for claiming to be her, and frankly, she is welcome to it. Usually if I do talk about them, I talk about being a seamstress in the 1700s. Total nobody. But I liked her, and it's more then I can say for some of them. And there are a couple I claim that were famous and have on here, but they both threw me for a loop...and not really in a good way. Mostly, I try to forget that they happened.

    I do know a few people who claim to be who I remember being in a past life, and I go, Oh, cool. But like Jim I have issues with the fact that they are so opposite of the person in question it's often something that makes me want to stab them in the eye with a spork and scream at them there is no way they were so and so. It is also possible I was not that person, but a friend or a maid or someone who knew them.

    In the end, I have a few that were well known (one for a video game and nothing to do with the person at all), and a whole lot that weren't. I don't really talk about them, and no one I know believe in past lives, so there is no reason in mentioning any of it, normal or not.
     
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  19. Speedwell

    Speedwell Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I don't disagree, your ideas make a lot of sense.

    Though there is some ambiguity in the term 'contemporary historian'. Is it referring to the time period of the original person, or our present-day time period?

    What I've found is that descriptions of famous people tend to acquire a certain mythology, what we might say as describing the characteristics of a life 'in a nutshell', a brief, phrase or concept to characterise a person's life. I've found these mythologies change with time, but do not become any more objective. One bias is replaced with another different bias. There really isn't any definitive version, there are just shifting fashions.

    One thing, unrelated to past lives or reincarnation, with regard to changing fashions, much present day broadcast media is encrusted with the attachments of present-day beliefs and popular ideas. That's all well and good, and entirely to be expected. However, what seems very shallow and naive to me is the assumption that 'this time we've got it right, all our predecessors were wrong'. Not realising that in say thirty or fifty years, present day ideals will be considered to be folly by our successors.

    That comment seems like a side-track from this topic, but it is very relevant to past-life research, since views and ideas of historical figures are subject to present-day errors, every bit as problematic as errors of previous generations.
     
  20. Petrichor

    Petrichor Senior Member

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    You're so right. "Summaries" are simply never accurate. Heck, people can't sometimes even summarize a book in a meaningful way, much less a life, which I think tells something. (Maybe this comparison will be more intelligible for everyone than MBTI, ehee.) As an avid reader I can't help but notice that when people try to summarize books they often make it sound like an overly-simplified version of what that book is trying to say and sometimes their summary can even make it sound like the exact opposite of what that book's point was. And especially when the person doesn't like the book and tries to criticize it! This is true of something as "short" as a book, which is also accessible; it's there for anyone to read and people still misunderstand the author completely sometimes, even though they can read the author's exact words... If that's true of something as short and accessible as a book, I think one can imagine, just based on that, what kind of gross simplification and misinterpretation happens when people try to put a historical figure in a nutshell over a long period of time. Whether they worship that person or hate that person, or don't care about that person at all, the result will almost certainly be wildly inaccurate.
     
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