What would it take to make reincarnation a fact?

Discussion in 'Reincarnation Questions' started by Majic, Oct 12, 2001.

  1. Majic

    Majic Senior Registered

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    Many people "believe" in reincarnation. Some people feel good about the "theory" of reincarnation. I feel certain that it is a fact - it is a truth. My certainty comes from an inner knowing. Is it possible to once and for all establish reincarnation as a fact? What kind of scientific experiment can be done that will accomplish that goal? Will only objective evidence be considered? What kind of objective evidence do we need? Do you think that someday everyone in the world will accept reincarnation as a truth and live and act with that truth?
    Is it really necessary for reincarnation to be established as a fact for the people in the world to evolve to their full potential? Is there anyway to establish "subjective" proof that will convince everyone of the fact of reincarnation? We need reincarnation to be established as a fact so it can be taken out of the area of belief and religions. What do you think?
    Majic
     
  2. Susie

    Susie Dreamer-former moderator

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    Hi Majic,

    Truth doesn't need to be proven, it simply is. Experience is the best truth and teacher there is.

    Susie

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    Free will allows me to choose my path, but my Higher Power lights the way....
     
  3. Deborah

    Deborah Executive Director Staff Member

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    It would take an evolution of consciousness.

    ------------------
    Love and Light,
    Deborah

    The soul's Center...is God.
     
  4. Szofie

    Szofie Senior Registered

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    It would take scientists learning how to tag people like they do migratory birds and seals and etc. Then you could track them on your energy body tracker and check up on them when they come back
     
  5. Susie

    Susie Dreamer-former moderator

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    Hi Majic,

    I came back to read your post and responses this evening, and I had another thought: you asked:

    My answer is no. I believe that no matter what truth one lives they can evolve to their full potential. I think a deeply religious person has just as much potential as the ultra spiritual. You see, it's all about our journey as we live it, not someone else's based on facts. We choose our reality and no spiritual journey is right or wrong. AND....

    Potential is merely a state of mind.
    Susie

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    Free will allows me to choose my path, but my Higher Power lights the way....



    [This message has been edited by Susie (edited 10-12-2001).]
     
  6. nexus

    nexus Senior Registered

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    In some parts of the world..especially the east people DO believe in reincarnation as a fact.You could say it is their religion although they tend to practise their beliefs in everyday life. Think of Chinese traditional medicine, Feng Shui etc..
    Even though Western religion ..based on the European tradition doesn't tend to believe in reincarnation,mainstream North Americans don't really believe everything their religion tells them anyway.It is not like in the east where religion is a part of life.
    As a matter of fact, most North Americans live their lives by "scientific proof".In fact , maybe we live in a world that has SCIENCE as its TRUE religion.So, aside from the minority of Americans(growing but still the minority) who are students of Eastern traditions I'm guessing the most effective way to spread the acceptance of reincarnation,alone, is by SCIENCE.
    What we need to teach by example, is how a spiritual,not religious, not scientific lifestyle brings true contentment.
    That IS a challenge for us living in this area of the world....
    More later...gotta run.
    Nexus
     
  7. Deborah

    Deborah Executive Director Staff Member

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    More thoughts Majic...

    Specifically about Science Nexus ----

    Since we are so chained to the causality of Newtonian or classical physics, it is nearly impossible for most people to BELIEVE that inner and outer events might relate noncausally. An actual relation seems like no relation at all. Besides that there is the obstacle of the deeply held belief in the split between mind and matter.

    When we BELIEVE that the MIND is a self --a contained autonomous mental principle that gazes out upon the material world, we create alienation and isolation of subject, and alienation from nature. This separatness also keeps us from embracing the truth of spiritual matters including reincarnation.

    There is new research being done -- it suggests more than most can fathom ----- it goes something like this -----

    If our thoughts deduce matter, then it exists. If matter is not observed, then does it exist? Science now questions this very premise. How can science weight and measure that which is real..if that which is real only becomes so by observation?


    If we are to "believe" -- to have a structure that contains our understanding of what is real, what is life, what and "who am I" - do we then FIRST CREATE? Do we create what we "believe" in?

    It gets real complicated --and seems to be the stumbling block to which you would like to see clarification.


    ------------------
    Love and Light,
    Deborah

    The soul's Center...is God.
     
  8. Justin

    Justin Senior Registered

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    "that has SCIENCE as its TRUE religion"

    I would say "science" as belief system is most common in human history. It was the case in Greece and partly in Egypt and throughout Gnosticism. Also the Shamans or the buddhist priests are scientists, as they rely on (spiritual) knowledge, never on faith. Religion in a sense of obedience, moralism, punishment or non-founded reality is rather what I would call significant for our and other contemporary civilisations. What today we call science or truth in general doesn't deserve that name. Same in politics. Maybe for 1500 years rationalism is at it's lowest point since prehistory.

    Justin
     
  9. nexus

    nexus Senior Registered

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    Justin,
    I would like to be sure I understand what you are saying.My interpretation is that ;
    Both modern society and shamans rely on what you would call "scientific knowledge" whether through what most people classify as "scientific experimentation" or through spiritual truth.
    According to what you are saying,"religion" refers to beliefs that are based in faith, only, and imply obedience and/or punishment, "morality, etc..having nothing to do with reality. Politics are also not based in reality.
    I assume you are therefore saying that the world has been dominated by religion and politics for the last 1500 years rather than the TRUTH.
    THIS is what Majic keeps trying to say should be eradicated...blind belief that is oppressive.
    If this IS what you are saying.it is certainly a breakthrough for me..because I keep seeing the mixture of blind belief and spiritual truth in the name of religion...and so tend to defend it as not completely harmful.
    Words are a most difficult medium. When Majic says "religion" he means blind belief, oppression etc..Spiritual Truth is what we want to separate and preserve.
    Reincarnation has been considered by the masses as "spiritual" because many say that spiritual truths can only be felt...and never proven by experiment.This may or may not be true... I believe that all spiritual truths will, in time be "proven" as fact..but we are missing the technology to do this to satisfy the masses who cannot or will not use the tools to recognize the "mystic" truths.
    My favourite analogy is how would one explain a falshlight to a caveman?
    HOW does one prove a "spiritual" TRUTH to those not trained in spiritual sensitivities?
    Nexus
     
  10. talka2001

    talka2001 Guest

    I am a University Graduate who has had a past life as a prostitute. I am a teacher now at an elementary school, so there is no way I can discuss this type of MEMORY. It is nice to think that reincarnation is a fact that can be taught in schools but that is not the way we are headed...in fact it is the opposite way with less open mindedness. Even here peaple think that I was NOT a "respectable person" in a past life, are not as open to me in this life, even the beleivers. I have changed but I still hurt.
     
  11. Susie

    Susie Dreamer-former moderator

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    Hi again, Talka. You wrote:
    We have all been all things in past lives- murderers, prostitutes, you name it. That's what reincarnation is about, moving forward in our soul evolution. We make the choices in our lives, we create our reality.

    I am stepping out on a limb here by asking this question, but is it your perception that others don't accept you based on your past life as a prostitute or have they verbally communicated this to you?

    Susie

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    Free will allows me to choose my path, but my Higher Power lights the way....
     
  12. Majic

    Majic Senior Registered

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    I love your answers. I agree that it is very difficult to collect "proof" that will convince our conservative world. I have thought that if we could get "past-life readings" from several psychics and they all said similar things - report identical lives of a particular person - then we would have some proof. But, upon reflection, the scientific world would dismiss such evidence with their "rational" talk and say psychics are quacks in the first place so how can anything be proven with them. Or they might say that the different psychics were communicating by telephacy. (Which in most cases they don't believe anyway.)
    Any form of proof is really for the converted anyway. The rest of the world is so conditioned by their values, based on their religion, that they wouldn't admit to seeing a wildcat if their religion said it didn't exist.
    I feel, however that to speed up spiritual evoluion on this planet, we need to gather some sort of proof about the reality of reincarnation. When people start to accept it, then the world will change. We wouldn't have the Sept. 11th disaster if people accepted reincarnation and its principles of respect and responsibility.
    Since we all come from Spirit and are all connected, we all need to evolve together for there to be any real positive change. We need to take Deborah's suggestion and start "....an evolution of consciousness." We need to stand up and tell people about the futility of religions and the reality of reincarnation. We need to get a world-wide discussion going. We need to overcome our fear of the churches and their self-imposed power. They only have that power becasuse they have forced it on us by fear - fear God! We need another revolution like the sexual revolution we had in the sixties.
    Susie, you said "Experience is the best truth and teacher there is." And you also concluded something to the effect that no matter what truth you accept, you will evolve to your full potential. It is a truism that experience is the best teacher. The problems lies in how you interpret the experience. Two people can have similar experiences. One person might by a Catholic and interpret his experience quite different then a Muslum or a Zen monk would. Most people are conditioned by their cultural blinders in how they understand their experience. I conclude, therefore, that experience is not necessarially the best teacher.
    I feel there exist an underlying "truth" in our world. Our religions certainly doesn't have it. Our science is coming a little closer, but it still doesn't have it. (Because our Scientist are conditioned by our religion as much as we are.) We need to find that truth - which will include reincarnatnion - and tell the world about it. We need to do it soon to save the world from its own self-destruciton.
    Majic
     
  13. Charles Stuart

    Charles Stuart Probationary

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    Majic,

    What you are saying has been utmost in my mind to the point of obsession: how can one prove reincarnation? I agree when you say that if someone could come up with "proof beyond doubt" it would change the world order entirely. Sadly, however, I have come to the conclusion that this is still an almost impossible task.
    I personally thought that, as I am sure I once lived a very well documented life as Charles Edward Stuart in the 18th century, it might be easier for me to forward evidence, as I have "memories" that are unrecorded but that could, perhaps, be proven. What if I did a DNA testing to prove that the Stuart lineage was not extinct (I believe my great-grandmother, Isabella Stuart, was a direct descendant of who I was in that life). What if I could research about a scene I was "shown", in which I was with Flora Macdonald running away from the English army, and which I could describe the place, the clothes, etc quite clearly? Could there be any evidence anywhere - a letter perhaps - that could evidence what I "remember"? Would anything such as these attempts constitute any kind of evidence? I don't think so, not for skeptic scientists after concrete "facts".
    A hard task indeed, my dear friend... All I can say, if this can be any comfort for now, is that the truth always emerges at some stage, and we are fast heading towards this day...
    Anyone else here have any ideas? Some time ago, I had suggested an attempt of all of us who hold memories setting up a video together in which we could record our witnessing. This could perhaps raise some interest and we could perhaps get onto an Oprah Winfrey show or something like that and try to "spread the word"?
    I think we have all been trying to give our own personal share of contribution. Most people I know have slowly been accepting the idea of reincarnation out of sheer common sense. Could we not work at getting the word out further? I think this is the best we could do for now.
    I don't know about religions. I do not have all the answers. But I do know, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that reincarnation is a fact.

    All the best to ya,

    Charles
     
  14. Dieter

    Dieter Senior Registered

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    Hi everybody

    I think that natural and social sciences advanced a lot in the last 100 years. There’s one exception: Psychology. By now, Freud should be kind of obsolete, but he isn’t. Medicine can cure almost everything today but psychosis.
    I think to make reincarnation a fact, psychology has to enter the XX century first…(What I mean is that Freud in psychology reached about the level that Newton reached in physics).

    My personal proof of reincarnation would be (and I hope to get it soon):
    a) remember a place I lived at in a past live, visit the place, compare the difference between reality and my memory, and explain the differences.
    b) Meet someone who shared a (secuence of) a past life with me and compare each ones memories, and explain the differences.
    Does this make sense?

    Love and Light
    Dieter
     
  15. hanoha

    hanoha Guest

    It makes sense to me Dieter, I agree with you,

    I would like to find someone that has been there with me. I mean I think my husband now was my husband then- a few of them -but he doesn't seem to "believe" in the concpet- or can't handle the possibility or the thought of. My mother thinks it's possible, but thinks it goes against her "religious" teachings and lessons, and many of my friends think I'm nuts and need to be committed, and some of them ask some of the sames questions we all read in all of these posts, and I can't validates everyones theory or addresss all their answers, so I can only testify on what I know- for me that have been validated and proven. The problem with this is- it doesn't come often or fast enough and I am postive that one of MY lessons to learn in THIS life is patience, just wanted to have some input!
    thanks and Peace!
     
  16. Justin

    Justin Senior Registered

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    Hi Nexus, I think you understood me.

    I go with Majic as I put a lot of hope in you guys to actualy save the world. Maybe we should consider WHY people also are afraid of believing in reincarnation. The traumas come up. The guy I know that rejects the idea the most once came up to me with a dream of beeing chased by zombies. "It was so real".

    What comes to my mind are the Roshyana Illuminated Ones in Afghanistan that already around 800 had the idea of a project like this. They have been exactly at our position. No god, only spiritual knowledge. But they defined the ones that won't believe as enemies. It is worth nothing without love.

    Justin
     
  17. Majic

    Majic Senior Registered

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    Your contributions are valuable. Great comments.
    As I read your comments and realize that undenighable proof is a long way off, I was wondering if we could lead people into the back door, so to speak. If we could popularize a form of meditation or guided visulization, or something, and as the "average" person is experiencing that, the "fact" of reincarnation will emerge and they will know it as a truth.
    I'm just putting out ideas, as one would do in a "think-tank". Can anyone else add to it?
    Majic
     
  18. Justin

    Justin Senior Registered

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    Right, you have to show, not to tell.

    This will happen anyway in near future I guess. Reality concepts will break appart. Public appearance of spirits like in Cairo 1969 or so will do dramatic changes. Revelation of the spiritualism in politics too.


    [This message has been edited by Justin (edited 10-19-2001).]
     
  19. Vulturess

    Vulturess New Member

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    Hi Everyone,

    While I personally believe in reincarnation, karma, and spiritual evolvement, I think this would be no different than the Catholic Church, doing missionary work! C'mon, do we really want to impose ANOTHER dogma on society? Are we so egotistical that we think OUR truth is THE truth? Truth is subjective. Everyone has their own. And although we truly believe we would be doing the world a favor by convincing them about reincarnation, we would be no different than any of the other "religions". And believe me, there is no one who is convinced they are right more than me, but it's still not right to impose beliefs on others.

    I think we must let it be, and let each find their own path. Are you sure you are not just seeking validation of your truth from others?

    Peace & Love,
    Vulturess
     
  20. Susie

    Susie Dreamer-former moderator

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    Hi Vultress,

    I agree that the real truth is our own. I think whatever path each of us choses is exactly right for us...

    Susie
    ------------------
    Free will allows me to choose my path, but my Higher Power lights the way....



    [This message has been edited by Susie (edited 10-19-2001).]
     

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