Why was he so angry ?

Discussion in 'Reincarnation Questions' started by Jaimie, Jun 6, 2019.

  1. Jaimie

    Jaimie Senior Member

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    Hi Sea & Sky ! I have to say I am very impressed by your knowledge :) Thank you so much. I've learned a great deal that I don't think I would have gotten at all close to understanding on my own.
    /Jaimie
     
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  2. Jaimie

    Jaimie Senior Member

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    Hi ! :)

    All generations probably have their own stereotypes as well as existing roles in various of occupations but feelings existing underneath the surface but only taking different ways to be read and be understood or be misunderstood. It is a mix of being molded from who we are from the within, then family, society etc.

    I feel lighter now regarding just thinking about talking in front of people and having bunch of people look at me. I should have been the opposite I suppose but am not.

    I felt the same warmth, stability and light in my emotions towards my boyfriend/husband? in the 1920's past life as I felt with "Jimmy" (James Dean), there has been moments when I have confused these two life times because of the emotions and when people resemble themselves in looks and personality traits from another life time.
    I've also thought and am thinking that maybe it is not the same soul but was only the type of person that I could fall in love with.

    I don't know how this works for others, how others know/recognize someone from their soul group, if I am right about how I know/recognize my own?

    / Jaimie
     
  3. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi Ken,

    Agreed for the most part. As usual, the human race doesn't find balance easily and is more likely to swing to the opposite extreme than otherwise. The point is that the socially approved attitudes of those days towards and of men were probably more balanced in terms of men--IMO--than where we are now. I also think the socially approved attitudes of those days towards and of women were more balanced for women--IMO--than where we are now in terms of women.

    Cordially,
    S&S

    PS--I had a good deal more, but erased it. I don't want to get too "political". Better to make a few oblique sage comments--the privilege of being a senior citizen--and leave the subject alone. Hopefully the blasted pendulum swings will even out after awhile.
     
  4. Jaimie

    Jaimie Senior Member

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    Update: Had 3 visions of that life...Where I became engaged to a man of my man's approval. Back then I was very young and had a romantic head and they arranged the dates and we were not alone either so I did not know him well. From the look of this man he was very, very career-oriented, he seemed to already be in some good position at work but it was really as he was thirsty for it and would do anything to get where he wanted. this was not a world I was suppose to care about, but I could see it the way he interacted with my father, with other men. After a while I started to think something was wrong with me because I did not feel for him what I thought I would have. I tried to swallow those feelings. They were brushed off as insecurities and talking in low words alone in my room with my mother-figure.

    Then I realized we were married...
    He was unhappy with my behavior. He made a gesture to make me know that when we came home (we were visiting someone) that he would discipline me, and with the gesture that meant he would beat me too. Just that gesture alone and the look in his eyes at me - frighten me. I was disgusted too. But the fear. I can still feel a trace of it. He was tall and handsome, I was in portion this little woman. I mean anyone could guess who would win in a physical struggle. I felt powerless.

    Then I realized my dress and my surrounding was more simple. As a carriage came I rushed from my new home. There was a child to be delivered to me, by a woman that I think might have worked for him. This child was a daughter with long hair and serious eyes. She looked so pretty in her fine clothes. I was eager to hug her but knew I couldn't. Not yet. There was also "Ice" around her. I knew it would take some time to get under her skin. I don't think I had seen her for the longest time. But she was my life. I would adapt to her in any way I could.

    I remember there was either a threat or there was a legal struggle of some kind, and I felt sad but still I felt free. There was one time though when I was about to go home to my own place when I saw a carriage wait, a carriage I knew, that looked more extravagant than most. I knew it could be father's or the estranged husband's.

    /Jaimie
     
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  5. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi Jaimie,

    In terms of the differences between your world and your husband's world in the Victorian period, I think the following sums up the relative positions and expectations for upper-class women and men very well:

    "Despite the lifestyle differences between rich and poor individuals from this period, upper-class men and women also lived wholly different lives. While Victorian boys attended the best schools and were groomed for various professions, Victorian girls were not. Instead, girls were often taught in their homes and expected to learn how to draw, play the piano, and sing. Moreover, marriage and serving as support systems for future husbands were strongly ingrained in girls and women.

    Unfortunately, the monumental inequality between men and women is a significant part of the legacy of Victorian morality. This particular era regarded men as creatures of ambition, independence, action, reason, and aggression. Women, in contrast, were viewed as creatures of passivity, dependence, submission, weakness, and self-sacrifice. Therefore, men were granted the freedom to select professions of their choosing, while women were expected to marry, submit to their husbands, bear children, care for the home, and provide instructions to servants."


    I think there was a discussion of corporal punishment before the current era in some prior posts on Li La's thread. In short, corporal punishment was extremely common in punishing law breakers, children, soldiers, servants and (sometimes) wives. In terms of wives, this was gradually ended-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment#Modernity:

    "In the 1870s, courts in the United States overruled the common-law principle that a husband had the right to "physically chastise an errant wife". In the UK the traditional right of a husband to inflict moderate corporal punishment on his wife in order to keep her "within the bounds of duty" was similarly removed in 1891.

    So, your husband's intentions were not particularly unusual, and would probably not have been considered to be brutal or radical by most. The same article cited above, also notes that in terms of servants, "Husaga (the right of the master of the household to corporally punish his servants) was outlawed in Sweden for adults in 1858." The illustration provided with this notation re servants also illustrates what your husband probably had in mind for you:

    [​IMG]

    Step-by-step, this form of punishment has been narrowed down to children in the West, where it remains in many countries. In this regard, it would have also been applied vigorously by a mother to her children--when she thought the situation warranted:

    [​IMG]

    I have no idea whether they are using corporal punishment in schools anymore here in the U.S., though I can say that I can remember two instances in my school days. The last was in high school, where I was sent to the office of the "Dean of Boys" for something I cannot even remember. He was a large man with a large paddle (which was artfully drilled with holes to cut down on air resistance--or to scare students :(). I remember taking a position similar to the "servant" above (but with my hands on my knees) and getting three swats with pauses in between (I suppose to better allow me to appreciate the gravity of my crimes--and the sting of the paddle :confused:). There was a separate "Dean of Girls" who might apply a similar treatment to errant females, though I cannot believe they received it with as much power and vigor as was applied by the Dean of Boys, who used to be a football coach and certainly outweighed my skinny adolescent self by at least 40 kilos. (BTW--This would have been in the late 60s).

    Cordially,
    S&S
     
  6. Jim78

    Jim78 Senior Registered

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    Hi S&S.

    Corporal punishment was outlawed in my country in 1982 so unfortunately the teachers were limited to using rulers and fists on me...
     
  7. KenJ

    KenJ Assistant Archivist and Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Same as the early 1950's, but I only saw it, never felt it, but deserved it as I was known for blowing things up with fire-crackers:oops:!
     
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  8. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi Ken,

    I didn't take any harm from it myself. I'm barely remembering sassing a teacher about something. I have an image of a young lady who I think was a new teacher, and was probably trying to establish authority. Anyhow, I was surprised by how much that paddle hurt!! I know that I wasn't expecting much, as the guys who got "referrals" all the time acted like it was nothing. So, it caught me by surprise. In any case, being a normally quiet and unobtrusive nerd type, I decided it was better to keep a low profile and not sass the teacher thereafter. :rolleyes: I.e., the intended goal of the three swats was accomplished. ;)

    Cordially,
    S&S

    PS--Sorry to hear about that Jim. I don't think child rearing/education has been improved by this step. o_O

    PPS--I also remember the joys of blowing things up with firecrackers, but I never brought them to school. (This is where I would insert a head with a halo emoji if one was available). Hmm. If you lived in Florida, you could also enjoy the joys of burning out fire ant beds with gasoline, though it could surprise you at times. :confused:
     
  9. Jaimie

    Jaimie Senior Member

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    Hi, me again and my so called visions...had them right before I woke up on my own before the alarm clock went off and then a few like the ones nearest above popped up for a visit as I meanwhile was occupied with other things...I have seen some things that I can't recall having seen in my own life, like a "pinard".

    With me it seems to be that the emotions are the one that rule the scene and I "just know" the meaning of some things, but not always...Is there anyone else who remembers something from that era, 1870's? or knows something it would be fun to find out.

    I HAD A LITTLE GIRL
    When she was little, less than 1 years of age she was asleep in our bedroom, in her bed. Me and her father in the bedroom, arguing. He wanted me to give him a son. He wanted to use his "rights" on me as a husband. I did not want to get pregnant again, thinking I had risked my life once. He wanted to know who had taken me from him when I said no one had. He said that if nothing happened between us that he would use a servant. To him this was not the same as being unfaithful/having an affair. Somehow I don't think he meant it. I don't think him forcing himself upon someone when it concerned those matters was something he found attractive in doing. I think he was just trying to make me feel uncomfortable. The servant was a woman my own age. We knew our different places but we had a strong but secret friendship, a sisterhood. He knew this. He knew I felt protective of her. I was raising my voice saying I would give him nothing, he looked at our daughter, innocent, sleeping and said that I had already given him that. Then he left the room.

    The girl-servant and I were in a kitchen and boiling water and wanting the steam to help my little daughter who was still so little and was ill. I'm not sure what was wrong with her. I could see a Pinard being used. She would just lye in her bed and just look out in the nothingness. We were afraid of brain damage. My husband blamed me for it, said I had come home with something from those places that I visited (with the church and charity work, I think ? ). If she was brain damaged that he would send her away. He had already asked and a servant's family had said they would take her in. I was so nervous, so out of my skin and so concentrated on her getting better. She would clutch my finger but still her eyes would not move and she would not smile. I would stay close to her bedside, and just look at my little girl, I was afraid to let her out of my sight. Afraid I would find her bed empty.

    upload_2019-7-10_18-46-49.jpeg

    THE GIRL MADE IT
    I sat across a table/desk and my daughter on the other side. The servant-girl was close by. The little girl did something to make me realize she was on board with us. She wasn't brain damaged. I was overjoyed and my heart was beating so fast. I jumped up and the servant girl was also over the moon.

    THE GIRL DANCED TO HER FATHER
    She wanted to stay up til her father came home. I would see the same living room in several scenes, we had a piano but in the different scenes the piano was moved. Anyhow, I saw the husband rest one of his arms on the piano, the little girl coming in and do her dance for him and I stood far away, by the entrance of the living room. He smiled and complimented her on her dancing. After he made a gesture at me to tell her to come along, to go to bed. As she came to me I sat down and told her how brilliant she danced, and I could see her, shy, sucking in the compliment and her stomach kind of standing out a bit and trying to not smile too much.

    ME BUGGING A "MAN-MEETING"
    This was a scene I really enjoyed. The servant-girl had prepared to serve several men, including my husband, in the living room but I got the tray and told her that she was sick, but she knew she wasn't, she needed to hurry to bed. Then I entered the living room. I could see the men's surprise. This was in the evening. I saw my husband sit on a chair with his back to me, a man on the sofa and another man on another chair next to my husband. There was a table in the middle. When I served the man on the sofa - he was the one I was focused on - I did it slowly while talking to him and my behind was close to sitting down on the sofa next to him but not sure if and when to do that, because it really felt as if I was not socially, in those circumstances, allowed to sit there with them, so when I did sit down I did it a bit on the side and still, whilst talking trying to serve. I wanted him interested in financially supporting a cause. I remembered having earlier, at some stage, argued with my husband who did not want to give "the beggars" anything. Anyhow, the man was older than all of them and he was a, to me, good man, much heart. I think we had met before. We were connected right away. I could see the long face, goofy expression my husband had, it was priceless, as I then continued to have served the good man, to go to the next man to serve, who had by now waited like ages, and last I served my husband who reminded me that I wasn't finished, that I needed to serve him more, just to show off the little power he now had. The husband joked that it was a good thing I was not born a servant in this life, to the others but I smiled and said I was going to see to our child now when the much-heart-man said that that was the most important role of all that a woman could have and smiled with appreciation at me on my way out. I was overjoyed and felt very clever after I left the room.

    ME RETURNING HOME IN THE EVENING
    A man opened the door for me, I was in a closed carriage and helped me out to the ground. I thanked him. I could see from the street view our living room window, but curtains still being there, the figure of my husband. There were steps up to the house. I had a brown-red long jacket on me and gloves and when I entered the hallway the first person to greet me was the servant-girl who took my gloves. I felt warm when I saw her, but I had stomach ache just knowing I was home, knowing my husband was alone in the living room. I could see the shadow of my husband in the living room and went to my right to see him. I said I should not complain but that I was tired. I said there was still much to do, where I now had been. He said there was much to do here at home as well, if I ever noticed. I asked if our daughter had disturbed him and he said no. I try to focus on the child and tell him that she was suppose to go to the park today, had she been there? I did not know if he knew or not. As he came closer to me, I froze. I went silent. He told me I was not going back there.
     
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  10. Jaimie

    Jaimie Senior Member

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    ABOUT THE SERVANTS
    I think the servant tried to keep my daughter with them as much as they could and I don't believe she was allowed in certain areas of the house, I have this strange vision of us eating dinner and it is this big table but just the husband and I and the little girl sits and eat in the kitchen instead with the servant-girl and the elder man that was some gardener, I think ? I feel ashamed now but I saw that I had a bell of some kind that one would ring and then a servant would just pop up. I could see that I did not wish to use it, but the husband made a nod at me to do it, why I don't know. He did not have one over at his side. I think it was he that wanted something but it was as if it was my duty to report to the servant what it was that he wanted ( OMG ....) I could also see some kind of system on a wall where one could call for the servant, although I did not get a close look at it I was aware it was there.

    THE SERVANT PUT SOMETHING UNDER MY NOSE
    I came out to this balcony and it was summer time and I was, I think at least, somewhere else. The servant-girl put something that looked like it came from salt cellar, I did not really see it from my view, but she placed it right under my nose. I don't know if I had morning sickness or what or was tired and that was why she did it. Out there I could see a man that I recognize as my husband on a horse, riding but he didn't look up. It was green grass, threes there and I think there might have been a forest further away.

    A MIX OF SCENES
    The husband complained to me that I was no Daisy, that I was not the soft woman, wife he had thought or wanted me to be. He complained why I was so good and forgiving of other people's sins but not his, where was he on that list, wasn't it his turn soon ?

    He did not like my close relationship with the servant-girl. He said we had both forgotten our places. I said if he was angry with me he should punish me, not her. She had only done what I had told her to. He said for both our sake's he thought it was best if she worked somewhere else.

    He said that the servants we had had turned against him. That I was most likely responsible for that. I said no one was against him. I was afraid at that point.

    In the "memories" of him he is not someone that is explosive with emotions but instead he is cold. his eyes are cold. Stone. I could tell he was smart, but he did not have the heart that many other men had. I think he felt lust instead of love, or felt love differently than other people. I don't know if he was born this way or if something bad had happened to him. He had a sense of humor that was clever.

    The most horrendous scene I had was when I think I said I wanted a separation, or at least I must have said something really bad...it started in the living room. The piano had now moved (again) and I was standing up and my husband was as well. I said something to him, I can't recall, and he slapped me. I was sad and had a fire inside of me. The piano served me well at that point because I could lean my back towards it and hold my hand on it as he stood opposite me, facing me. Instead of being silent or going off somewhere to cry and him having the last word and him leaving the room, I repeated what I think I had just said. He slapped me again, one time, this time harder. I did not fall, but I was dizzy. Again, the fire in me was worst than before. Again, for the third time I uttered the same words. He slapped me again and this time I was seeing the end part of the piano, like my body had moved from the side. My ear and my mouth hurt and there was fire on my cheek. I don't know if I uttered the same words or not, but he grabbed me by the throat and forced me to a wall where we had books stored up. I could by now hardly see anything. Think he said he would kill me if I did something. I have a feeling it was after this ugly scene between us that I left.

    I think I was living with the servant-girl after the break up. She had 1 room. I was ill and with last strength took me to her room. I could see her lying in her bed. She had passed away. Her arm had fallen down. She had a cross with a wooden necklace type of thing with dots on them, very long, and she held it in her other hand, it was on her stomach and chest area. She had a little window above the bed with dark wooden frame around, a small window. I loved her very much. I felt weak as I came to her and reach to open the window. My other hand was over my mouth and I was crying but also I think I had seen this coming. I hoped she was on the other side and would greet me come home, just as she had done all those other years before.
     
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  11. Jaimie

    Jaimie Senior Member

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    Hi S & S! Thanks for writing and the info ! : ) Jesus, this is bad. I'm sorry you were subjected to that : ( I have now written down some more scenes but have trouble finding the exact clothes I have seen and some other things, I will try to find them and if I am lucky they have actually existed and if I will add them later
    /Jaimie
     
  12. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi Jaimie,

    Very interesting posts, as always. I think it might be worth remembering that your husband may have had no more choice than you in terms of the marriage. One would hope that love between two people who married without love might blossom anyway. It often seems to do so in romantic stories. However, this was not the case between you and your husband. And, you seem to have been far too different from him for this to have happened in real life.

    From his standpoint, since he also quite possibly married without love, you may have been as much of a disappointment to him as he was to you. He most likely felt like he had a right to expect from you what was expected of an upper class woman in those days in marriage (as I outlined in a prior post). You were to be a loyal devoted wife, stay at home tending to the household, and willingly share his bed and bear him children (especially an heir). It does not appear that you did any of these things very willingly, especially the last two. OTOH, he would most likely feel like he had satisfied the requirements of a good husband of his class to be ambitious, earn wealth, and take good care of you (in a material sense). The surroundings you describe with servants and etc. show that he outwardly satisfied his end of the marriage bargain.

    He seems not to have known that you were idealistic or to have cared about the causes you cared about, or much of anything else except wealth, a submissive wife, and respectability by the standards of the time. We might accuse him of being unfeeling and a variety of other things, but the truth is that you (as noted before) were well ahead of your time. He was merely a typical husband and man of his era.

    I know that it seems like a stretch, but you may need to work on forgiving him. Sometimes PL memories seem to come up because there is an unresolved problem in relationships that needs to be dealt with. I suppose it seems like an insult, but it is worth considering that you may not have been any more lovable to him than he was to you. Then you threatened his carefully constructed life with scandal by separating yourself from him.

    Looking at this from the outside, my main complaint is against the families and customs that forced (and chained) two such incompatible people together in matrimony. By hindsight, the results seem fore-ordained.

    Cordially,
    S&S

    PS--No problem with the paddling I received. I didn't take offense at the time, got over it immediately, and learned a lesson in the process (its better not to sass your teachers). I should have known that already, but at that age there is a great need to be admired for challenging authorities. Anyhow, no harm done.
     
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  13. Li-la

    Li-la Senior Member

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    Hi!
    I got emotional when reading this...I also by chance thought of a post from the past, something about will the feeling ever go away: That you felt on your cheek and throat after having experienced something you could not remember during meditation? The scene you described with your husband and the piano...you wrote he slapped you repeatedly and then grabbed you by the throat...Could it have been from this scene that now finally came to surface? I hope U are OK? Best wishes Li La
     
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  14. KenJ

    KenJ Assistant Archivist and Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Jaimie, I'm impressed with both the detail you recall and your ability to put it in writing. Your ability to venture beyond where I feel comfortable going makes me feel like a wimp. That life that you recall has some difficult times to it that perhaps could help you this time around. I'm not sure why it happened, but I'll post it, while reading your story, I remembered a childhood experience, a little six-sided brass bell that hung on a dragon shaped metal stand that had a small long-handled hammer that was held in a metal sleeve that was bent open at the top as if someone carelessly pried the hammer sideways too many times - I first saw the sleeve and then saw/recalled the rest - no idea what that had to do with your story - just throwing it out there for you. I think I played with it at my grandparent's house when I was very young.
     
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  15. Jaimie

    Jaimie Senior Member

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    Hi, thank you I am fine. That is good of you, and for yo to remember :) I'm getting good sleep nowadays but the "memories" ( if that is now what it is that is ) are still coming but further apart. Meanwhile I am working quite well. When I was trapped in it all, when everything got so intense, my family said I looked very pale and seemed off, somehow ( and I have not told them anything ). They thought I had gotten sick for real. I had no idea the effect it had. Now I feel as if I am returning to my real current self, more and more. I don't dare to do meditation, though. After the bad memory of the violent-hubby I have not felt any strange pain. I woke up this morning, saw my real husband's adorable face and said I loved him. I felt so blessed that I was not in that situation anymore. He wondered what had gotten over me ;) Sometimes we take each other for granted. Thank God we live in different times now, at least many of us women have it more easier than back then, but some women have it very difficult still
    /Jaimie
     
  16. Jaimie

    Jaimie Senior Member

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    Thank you that is very kind of you. I do feel a limitation regarding the language because I can't describe much variation of words too much or really know the real words for some of the things I have seen, but I try my best : ) Thank you once again. That to me sounds like one of those old bells :)
     
  17. Jaimie

    Jaimie Senior Member

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    Hi Sea & Sky ! and here I was looking for a little bit of sympathy ; ) No, seriously , I get it. Even if I was by those time's standard a terrible wife it still felt like this, though:
    [​IMG]
    ;)

    Who knows once it is gone and forgotten and forgiven about, for me at least, it might be like this:

    [​IMG]

    /Jaimie
     
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  18. Jaimie

    Jaimie Senior Member

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    Hi, me again...had 3 scenes today. In one of the scenes I saw a building that I am sure is some kind of hospital, which is perhaps some clue but I still don't know where I was moving about. I don't know why but it does feel more like I am in the US than England, but that is just a feeling. It seems the more I try to figure this out with my left brain I get nothing and the more I don't really care and don't think about it is when the vision comes...

    GETTING BOOKS
    I remember being in a book store and ordering books and the servant-girl was with me and it seemed to have been in the middle of the day or afternoon. I was let down when I was told they could not deliver the books to our home that day. ( We could not have been that far away from home because we did not have a horse carriage with us ? ). I had no patience ( which is just like me...e hum... ) and asked to take the books with us. So we were walking, me in front and she after, both of us holding lots of books in our arms. I saw gentlemen on the street dressed like my husband with those over sized black hats and it seems as if almost all of those type of men that we passed asked to help to carry the books

    TRYING TO FIGURE SOMETHING OUT
    Then I remembered being very focused and sitting on the floor in the living room. I had apparently books all over the living room, some opened. It was now dark outside. I had my daughter's bed close by and she was sleeping. I think the servant-girl was in the kitchen, I could smell the food but I wasn't hungry. Then I realized my husband had come home. He was met by a servant at the door. Then I looked up as he stood in the entrance just looking at me and seeing me on the floor, books everywhere, the child's bed having been dragged into the living room. I think he was used to this being his area of comfort when he came home. I wanted him to listen to me and was on my way to explain things and show him another book that I had placed open on a furniture when he told me I was no doctor and I better have the living room cleaned up after dinner.

    VISITING A DOCTOR - HOSPITAL?
    We came out of a carriage and I saw a white and brown building. I then remember going to see a doctor and on my way in that house I realized we had to be in a hospital or at least where they kept children that were not well. I felt it in my heart. Those children. As we were seated in the doctor's office I held my little daughter. I had tons of questions. The doctor tried to get in contact with our daughter as she was in my arms, sat on my lap. I tried to stay neutral but were close to tears while I did not wish to show anything and I hardly dared to breath. He asked me to take off the girl's white hat and he went with his hand over her head.

    Later I think I asked the doctor about the place, and about the other children. My husband did not tell me then but I could see the dislike in his eyes and at one point he grabbed me by the arm and thanked the doctor for the time. He later told me all those children there had their own parents or relatives and it was not up to me to ask questions about them, that I should know my place. But I realized much needed to be done. It was again as if I had this silent fire inside of me. I knew I could make a change with money and with the right people involved. I refused to give up hope. I felt I left too soon but knew I had no other choice than to leave with my husband.

    upload_2019-7-11_21-56-20.jpeg

    I saw my child wear a white hat similar to the one above.

    When I have made a quick search today on children diseases and hospital back in the 1870's and further a head I came across this page which I found interesting:
    https://www.nursing.upenn.edu/nhhc/home-care/late-nineteenth-and-early-century-pediatrics/

    /Jaimie
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
  19. KenJ

    KenJ Assistant Archivist and Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Phrenology was popular during that period I think, you might look into that if you are unfamiliar with it.
     
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  20. Jaimie

    Jaimie Senior Member

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    Thank you, I was not familiar with it :)
     

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