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Would positive "PROOF" Reincarnation is nonexistent change your present behaviors??

Free Spirt

Senior Registered
IF there were no reincarnation, no karma, no god, no religion, no before or after life how would you live differently, if at all and why?

It's the Journey!
 
Well, the thing is that deep down I sense that these things exist, even if I believed intellectually that they didn't. So I would live according to my deepest intuition, without having a "place to hang it" or an explanation.

As for the question of what if they really didn't exist, that's an unquestion, because if God didn't exist, I wouldn't exist. So it's a moot point.
Steve S.
 
Um, hello, I see some of you still think that reincarnation does not exist or something, well try and read (please) my post in this forum on reincarnation, esp. the book "Thiaoouba Prophecy" which wil give you enough proof for reincarnation.

If facts exist, then saying that reincarnation does not exist is ignorance, much like saying that 2+2 is something else than 4.

You have the information in front of you. Why don't you read it? Not even curious? The answers ARE there, and they could be read NOW.

But unless you want to "READ and try to understand what you read" - no chance of understandin..gg
 
Can I make a point here? Just because you believe in something doesn't make it true. It's always like that with religions. What if the morman's are right? Take the morman's, for instance, does that mean that the rest of us burn in hell for eternity? Personally, I think not, but that is what the morman believes. We all have doubt about our beliefs, deep down, no-one can really be 100% sure what happens after death.
And, Elnino, I know that you beleive the Thiaoouba Prophecy etc. but that doesn't make it compulsury for everyone else to beleive it. I am sure that when I get round to reading the books they will be fasinating reads, but please remember not everyone thinks exactly the same as you do, and certainally don't beleive exactly the same as you do. I very sorry if I insulted anyone.

Jo

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"An eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind"

Mohandas Gandhi
 
My question is not meant to relate my position, rather I was hoping for an intellectual discussion...whether one believes or not ..... the question is IF...... Just thought it would be interesting to explore the question from many different perspectives... I think it is sad if , like many religions, one is not able to allow oneself to even imagine if... well I hope this clarifies my question and some good discussion can insue...

It's the journey...
 
Free Spirit,

Back to the origional question then! Well, I suppose I'd live my life in exactly the same way. Except I'd have no puropose. That's what religion and beliefs are for; they give us a reason for being here, something to considor, the ultimate question that no-one can truly answer. If humans solved the ultimate question: 'Why are we here?', meaning we all actually agreed on the answer would there be any meaning to life? Would the world still turn round without all the diffrent religions stepping on each others toes? Would an answer to the question end the game?

Jo

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"An eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind"

Mohandas Gandhi
 
I think that IF there would be not a thing that usually makes us people do good, I would do my best anyway. I'm too proud and self conscious to do otherwise. Harming other living creatures would make me feel the deepest shame that there can be.

But actually... That is the attidude I've developed just because I've been very very naughty in past lives!
 
No religion, no anything. Terrific! Wars would largely go away. Fear induced terror would go away. Read Socrates words on the subject. If there is nothing, you are just gone. NO MORE!

Power elites would no longer be able to control you. Blood feuds would stop most killing. Someone like Muhammad and Socrates would provide an ethic.

The Earth would be a comparitive paradise.

Our fear would be no different than the Dog! The other critters get on OK. Eat and be Eaten!


There is one thing about reincarnation/rebirth . It is nearly a proven phenomenon. THe only problem is stubborn materialists with an axe to grind on one side and religious true believers on the other side.

No concept of any religion has any proof what so ever! Only reincarnation/rebirth!
 
-IF- reincarnation, consequences, karma, all that did not exist.... (I believe they do, but in the spirit of "what if")

... I would live exactly the same. I don't care if it betters my karma or not -- it makes me feel good to do positive things for other people and make them smile.

Blessings~
Tatinne

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From the Ashes: an urban fantasy tale of the ties that span lifetimes, set against the backdrop of Pendragon Renaissance Faire.

Find it at http://www.faire-folk.com

 
Hi Free Spirit,

Define Karma for me. *S*S Humor me here as I believe this is at the root of what you might be wanting to get at even though you might not think so. After you define Karma, let's compare notes -- then let's talk about the journey -- of possibilities and what IF's.

I apologize for being so absent so much - just swamped this week - but I am interested in the intellectual discussion

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Deborah

Memory is an abstract painting - it does not present things as they are, but rather as they feel. --Eugenia Collier
 
hi...how fun!!! now we're getting somewhere.
Our Administrator has asked :

"Define Karma for me. *S*S Humor me here as I believe this is at the root of what you might be wanting to get at even though you might not think so."

"The root of what i am wanting to get at"... Interesting??? Now you guys are able to deleve into my subconcious and determine my "real" objectives...lol... I have heard that some of you do read minds... And of course , by definition, if it is unconcious then I would ned some help to bring it to my conciousness..i'll think on it... I thought, before this...the "root" of my question was to see if the "defensiveness" and protective "spirit" I percieve in many responses throughout this forum are really necessary... I mean I thinnk..and this is what I am looking into...wether or not karma is "real" wouldn't we live the same and for the nonbelievers as well as for the believers, wouldn't it play out the same.... At least this was my concious 'motove" as i presented the question.

And Of course I will "humor "you". However this is like a salmon in the ocean going up against a shark. I can certainly use my thinking skills to learn and clarify....I claim no expertise in the area of karma, reincarnation, etc... Having made my excuses in advance.... My understanding of karma in its "simplest" form is "what goes around comes around". When I used the term in my question I was referring to a " spirtual force or "universal law" that would dictate that every "wrong" get "righted". Lets go from there, before I get into too much "hot water'!! lol
 
Hi Jojolala! thanks for your input...you are giving me food for thought..As Freud said ) and yes he also said a bunch of stuff that is hogwash!) "It is all grist for the mill".

You said:

I'd have no puropose. That's what religion and beliefs are for; they give us a reason for being here, something to considor, the ultimate question that no-one can truly answer. If humans solved the ultimate question: 'Why are we here?


I think many people hang on to religion for that reason ..a purpose.. but what purpose does religion offer? And if the purpose 'given' us by religion is so paramount and at the center of our existence, then why don't we all know our "purpose"? Just some questions that come to my mind. Personally i have a notion that I get to choose my "purpose". Many atheists throughout history (if you need examples i can offer them up for you) have had a clear purpose in their lives and have made great contributions to our plant and mankind. I have chosen as my purpose in life to be the best I can be...which includes learning about myself and the universe I live in until I exist no more...My concrete (remember folks, i really do think very simplistically and examples help) purpose at this point in time is to be the best parent I can be!!! I am also in a position to provide help to many criminally ill individuals in our society which provides a degree of safety to the community.... and as was mentioned above I love to influence and promote positive vibes, laughter, and smiles throughout our planet....... it is like the rock thrown into the lake...the ripples change the surface of the water..which changes the lake, which changes the shore......which changes the world/universe.... So one purpose I have chosen is to change the world/universe.....one smile at a time!!


this is fun..! thanks to all who are participating!!
 
oh elnino...I had a thought today about one of your statements....You said

"If facts exist, then saying that reincarnation does not exist is ignorance, much like saying that 2+2 is something else than 4."

it remoinds me of an experience I had as a teenager......I owned two female rabbits... While I was on a vacation I was given a male and a female rabbit...when I returned i had a lort more than 4 rabbits!!!! lol perspective is everything!!!

Thanks for your thoughts
 
Hi Free Spirt,

OK OK - please -just call me Deborah, OK?
The title administrator just means I have responsibilities. And I ain't no shark LOLOLOL

In my opinion -

Karma is a term that continues to surface around reincarnation and implies in new age circles -- “what you sow so shall you reap.”

But the original definition, and intention behind karma, Karmic law, or Karman simply means cause and effect, cause and consequences. If it is true that ‘consciousness creates,’ then consciousness must be the cause. The creation then, must be the effect.

This becomes even more of a reality when studying Quantum physics which suggests that we are not discovering reality, but participating in its creation.

Physicists say we need to be careful not to say that we have discovered a particular pattern or structure, especially regarding consciousness and/or energy. The problem they say, is due to the fact that we have created what it is we proclaim to have found.

Ohhhhhhh the possibilities. Ohhhhhhh the wonderful IF's

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Deborah

Memory is an abstract painting - it does not present things as they are, but rather as they feel. --Eugenia Collier
 
My answer..

"IF there were no reincarnation, no karma, no god, no religion, no before or after life how
would you live differently, if at all and why?"

I would live a miserable life, like a robot or a person with a life sentence without a possibility of porol.

I do not care any man made fear based organized religious beliefs, - most are.
I dont' believe the fluffy heaven and the eternal hell, but I believe god as ALL IT IS.

I would feel and live miserable life, if I would know my multidimensional self denied to take part of the never ending creation, I would feel robbed from the possiblity to understand with each of my life also a state of becoming.

I would feel miserable not to know the progress have nothing to do with time but psychic and spiritual forces.
I would feel miserable not to know my action in this life are NOT caused by previous excistence, (karma if you will) or I being punished in this life for a crime in a past one.
I would feel miserable not knowing all of my lives are simultanious.

I would feel miserable not able to consciously explore and communicate with afterlife.
I would feel miserable not knowing there are no special "places" or situations or conditions set apart after physical death in wich any given personality must have experience.

Over all I would feel miserable not to know I am my manifastation of my own soul, and not limited my entire reality to the experience what I know now, and imagine my present self is my entire personality and my identity be maintined UNCHANGED trough an endless eternity.

I would live a miserable life to "know" my "free sprit" was taken away being bounded to the illusionary 3 dimensional reality...

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Dora

[This message has been edited by dorika (edited 07-11-2002).]
 
If there were no God, no religion, no reincarnation, no before or after, no past or future other than simply the here and the now.... then I would of course think and feel differently than I do now. And, I believe deep down that in that case, the majority of people would whether they choose to admit it or not.

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I believe in fairy tales and dreams come true
 
Quote: "IF there were no reincarnation, no karma, no god, no religion, no before or after life how would you live differently, if at all and why?"

For me, it is hard to imagine the no-reincarnation-no-karma-no-god part of your question, but I think there definitely was a time when there was no religion; and then look what people did. They invented religions.

Kris



[This message has been edited by kris0503 (edited 07-11-2002).]
 
Rastislau said

"The law of karma states that for every action there is an equal but opposite reaction when an occasion arises"

1) do you agree with this definition?
2) FOR THOSE WHO DO , WOULD THEY SAY for EACH ACT OF LOVE i OFFER AN EQUAL AMOUNT OF HATE IS FORTHCOMNING "GIVEN THE OCCASION"?

iTS STILL THE JOURNEY!
 
2) FOR THOSE WHO DO , WOULD THEY SAY for EACH ACT OF LOVE i OFFER AN EQUAL
AMOUNT OF HATE IS FORTHCOMNING "GIVEN THE OCCASION"?

---------- Love opposite is -------------
NOT hate but [NO-LOVE[/b]
HATE opposite NO-HATE
Both based on individual choice...

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Dora
 
If there was no religion, no god, no reincarnation therefore no such thing as spirits..then it would be pretty much a less inspiring and dramatic, hopeful world.

That's kind of like taking romance out of love, Santa Claus out of Christmas and sugar out of a candy.

Although I am inclined to believing more materialistically, I still would think that reincarnation and spirits are real and substantial even though science hasn't found any proof yet, to solve queries like this will take ages... But Reality is what you make of it, All you have to do is Believe or look away, whatever suits you, you can make up your own philosphies about the universe.

I know alot of people who don't believe in god, or in reincarnation and they seem to be fine with their lives, they probably have their own theories.

Right now there isn't any proof if reincarnation doesn't exist. Nobody knows the truth, sometimes what appears to be truth is probably nothing more but an illusion -(Matrix -/oh! Keanu Reeves was superb).
*Charmed.

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"It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.."

Charles Darwin
 
Given that we accept the stated definition of Karma: you all have stated that giving love or performing loving begaviors does not result in"unlove" or an opposite "direction" of love, rather you have indicated:

"The opposite is about direction, not opposite action. If you love someone, then someone will love you."

"Love opposite is -------------
NOT hate but [NO-LOVE[/b]". So my question is if we accept the given defintion:

"The law of karma states that for every action there is an equal but opposite reaction when an occasion arises"

Then how are your responses about the result of love being more consist with this definition?

charmed: you said

"I know alot of people who don't believe in god, or in reincarnation and they seem to be fine with their lives, they probably have their own theories.

How is that consistent with living life like X-mas with no santa, etc... Many of us have very exciting and fulfilling lives without a "theory". I simply live in the here and now, havignlearned form my tangible past and with an eye on my foreseeable future.... I have no need to believe that I am pleasing a supreme being or that my purpose is a result of past lives or future rewards and contributions beyond what i can offer to this planet in this era....I think i might feel like x-mas without santa if i thought my efforts may not be helpful or benificial in the here and now and only by the GRACE of some power beyond my control could I realize satisfaction from my choices.....I know I have made many assumptions in mt previous statyement and i welcome the chance to have them challanged. That will help me to identify evidence to support them/ or not..and if not then I change my assumption and my thinking and my ..... belief system!!! It's pretty simple I think... Take a stand....stand up for what you believe...if you receive evidence of flawed thinking...change your thinking ...and belief system...no problem... just don't use subjective experiences and unprovable phemonema as evidence!

Oh, by the way, I have given more thought to the statement elnino made:

"If facts exist, then saying that reincarnation does not exist is ignorance, much like saying that 2+2 is something else than 4."

You began with "If facts exist"...and then went on as though they do....good place to start...How do we determine if something is a FACT?

It's the journey!
 
If reincarnation was proven conclusivly to not exist then Yes I would have to change my beliefs accordingly. However I have seen evidence quite to the contrary through Dr. Stevenson's research and other Pictorial evidence.

[This message has been edited by kengibson2001 (edited 09-26-2002).]
 
The law of karma states that for every action there is an equal but opposite reaction when an occasion arises"

I'm not one who 100% agree with that law,
I believe everything within are 3D system occours simultaniously. Each action creates other possibilites of itself, or other actions from the infinite energy if of the universe which it self is never still.

If the "law" would be correct then would be an order which only predestination could rule, each part fitting in with a particular order without freedom to change the pattern given it. There is order, but within this order there is FREEDOM - the freedom of creativity. It's infinite becomingEvery action is made by individual choice.


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Dora

[This message has been edited by dorika (edited 07-12-2002).]
 
kengibson2001 said:

Yes I would have to change my beliefs accordingly....

of course IF it were proved to be nonexistent one would change their belief system...my question is Would you change your way of existing...your behaviors..your way of interacting with your fellow man?
 
hi dorika,

you said,

"I believe everything within are 3D system occours simultaniously"

I am new to many of these concepts..Please say more..thanks... and the more simple the better...I tend to think very concretely!!

thanks...
 
Hi -

My continued thoughts- It doesn't matter whether you believe in reincarnation, a religion or karma; believers or doubters, they will still face the consequences of all the causes generated by their actions. It leaves each one to judge for himself/herself what he/she is, what he/she understands, and what are his/her hopes -- dreams and beliefs.

This pathway we travel is not imposed by anyone, not by a God overseeing or overpowering us; it is the reality of Nature that dictates. From the moment a man or woman is born on earth, he/she enters a cycle he/she cannot escape until the cause of the disharmony, which they created, have been exhausted.

To believe or not to believe is one and the same. Be good, be just, be charitable, and the sooner you will reap ILLUMINATION. Be evil, be cruel, be egotistical, whether you believe or not, it will come back to you. Cause and effect.

So -to answer your question in Zen fashion..NO - I would behave the same way, due to who I AM -*S*S*S

Oh and Free Spirt -Dorika is referring to the Holographic Nature of our Universe, remember the book I told you about *S*S*S*S I have the book, hint hint.

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Deborah

Memory is an abstract painting - it does not present things as they are, but rather as they feel. --Eugenia Collier
 
Isn't that a little like asking if there was positive proof that "love" was nonexistent would it change your present behavior?
 
revericson; you said:

"Isn't that a little like asking if there was positive proof that "love" was nonexistent would it change your present behavior?"

Please say more...I don't think so...I am speaking about a belief system and I think love is an emotion...I don't think they are like comparing apples to apples. Help me out here if I am missing something...I am wanting to PLAY with this idea... so...would your behaviors differ IF... ??
 
I would be tempted to agree with those who say that subtle beliefs in SOMETHING that is not just chaotic,even if it is subconscious, is really in the heart of MOST humans...religious, spiritual or NOT.
Without this we actually DO see a lot of depression and even suicidal mentalities.
I do not believe KARMA enters into this as it is actualy a law of nature in general..in the here and now...materialist or spiritualist.

Yes, people DO create religions and belief SYSTEMS to bring order to their lives.This isn't to say that there are not many observed and experienced TRUTHS hidden among the trappings of the labels we sometimes give our beliefs.

So, without this I would have to say I MIGHT be a more despondent person, even if my general nature would be to empathize with my fellow creature.

On an related note: In almost all cases I have noticed a very different attitude from those who believe in reincarnation about death(and birth) to those who don't.In fact I can even remember a time when I used to say to myself"I only wish I could believe in such a thing as afterlife etc...It seems to create such peace!" Now, I can truly state that I FEEL that spiritual truths are more likely than total chaos.This, after years of living, learning and observing for myself!

I am presently dealing with the imminent death of my wonderful father.While I can still see hope in my dad's ongoing "future" as a soul, (and unable to belabour my explanation of why that is)my family seems very disappointed that I am not showing an "appropriate" amount of misery...which, by the way they cannot help but pass on to my dad.They insist on reminding me that my dad is DYING..as if I'm not aware.

I clearly see a big difference in the way I live when I keep this in mind...even if I am not always consciously aware of it.
Does that help at all?
Love,Nexus

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"I am a part of all that I have met"
Alfred Lord Tennyson
 
Hi nexus, nice of you to weigh in. I am glad you have come out to PLAY.

YOu said:

SOMETHING that is not just chaotic,even if it is subconscious, is really in the heart of MOST humans...religious, spiritual or NOT.
Without this we actually DO see a lot of depression and even suicidal mentalities

Where do you get your data for this statement? i work in the mental health field and can show where much mental illness esulting form guilt is a direct result of "spiritual" beliefs. I have worked with and performed research on depression and suicidal people...so I am curious where your data comes from...

You also said:

In almost all cases I have noticed a very different attitude from those who believe in reincarnation about death(and birth) to those who don't.

Can you say more about this?... Those who believe this is all there is..and accept that... seem to face their mortality much better than those who do not acknowledge their mortality and thus "create" an afterlife.

and you said:

So, without this I would have to say I MIGHT be a more despondent person, even if my general nature would be to empathize with my fellow creature.

I am sorry to hear you MIGHT choose to be more desponsent...however who your behaviors toward others on this planet be any different?

I am awaiting replies from all in anticipation of some good discussion and fun!

Its the journey!!!
 
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