Would positive "PROOF" Reincarnation is nonexistent change your present behaviors??

Discussion in 'Reincarnation Questions' started by Free Spirt, Jul 10, 2002.

  1. Free Spirt

    Free Spirt Senior Registered

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    Given that we accept the stated definition of Karma: you all have stated that giving love or performing loving begaviors does not result in"unlove" or an opposite "direction" of love, rather you have indicated:

    "The opposite is about direction, not opposite action. If you love someone, then someone will love you."

    "Love opposite is -------------
    NOT hate but [NO-LOVE[/b]". So my question is if we accept the given defintion:

    "The law of karma states that for every action there is an equal but opposite reaction when an occasion arises"

    Then how are your responses about the result of love being more consist with this definition?

    charmed: you said

    "I know alot of people who don't believe in god, or in reincarnation and they seem to be fine with their lives, they probably have their own theories.

    How is that consistent with living life like X-mas with no santa, etc... Many of us have very exciting and fulfilling lives without a "theory". I simply live in the here and now, havignlearned form my tangible past and with an eye on my foreseeable future.... I have no need to believe that I am pleasing a supreme being or that my purpose is a result of past lives or future rewards and contributions beyond what i can offer to this planet in this era....I think i might feel like x-mas without santa if i thought my efforts may not be helpful or benificial in the here and now and only by the GRACE of some power beyond my control could I realize satisfaction from my choices.....I know I have made many assumptions in mt previous statyement and i welcome the chance to have them challanged. That will help me to identify evidence to support them/ or not..and if not then I change my assumption and my thinking and my ..... belief system!!! It's pretty simple I think... Take a stand....stand up for what you believe...if you receive evidence of flawed thinking...change your thinking ...and belief system...no problem... just don't use subjective experiences and unprovable phemonema as evidence!

    Oh, by the way, I have given more thought to the statement elnino made:

    "If facts exist, then saying that reincarnation does not exist is ignorance, much like saying that 2+2 is something else than 4."

    You began with "If facts exist"...and then went on as though they do....good place to start...How do we determine if something is a FACT?

    It's the journey!
     
  2. kengibson2001

    kengibson2001 Banned

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    If reincarnation was proven conclusivly to not exist then Yes I would have to change my beliefs accordingly. However I have seen evidence quite to the contrary through Dr. Stevenson's research and other Pictorial evidence.

    [This message has been edited by kengibson2001 (edited 09-26-2002).]
     
  3. dorika

    dorika Senior Registered

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    The law of karma states that for every action there is an equal but opposite reaction when an occasion arises"

    I'm not one who 100% agree with that law,
    I believe everything within are 3D system occours simultaniously. Each action creates other possibilites of itself, or other actions from the infinite energy if of the universe which it self is never still.

    If the "law" would be correct then would be an order which only predestination could rule, each part fitting in with a particular order without freedom to change the pattern given it. There is order, but within this order there is FREEDOM - the freedom of creativity. It's infinite becomingEvery action is made by individual choice.


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    Dora

    [This message has been edited by dorika (edited 07-12-2002).]
     
  4. Free Spirt

    Free Spirt Senior Registered

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    kengibson2001 said:

    Yes I would have to change my beliefs accordingly....

    of course IF it were proved to be nonexistent one would change their belief system...my question is Would you change your way of existing...your behaviors..your way of interacting with your fellow man?
     
  5. Free Spirt

    Free Spirt Senior Registered

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    hi dorika,

    you said,

    "I believe everything within are 3D system occours simultaniously"

    I am new to many of these concepts..Please say more..thanks... and the more simple the better...I tend to think very concretely!!

    thanks...
     
  6. Deborah

    Deborah Executive Director Staff Member

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    Hi -

    My continued thoughts- It doesn't matter whether you believe in reincarnation, a religion or karma; believers or doubters, they will still face the consequences of all the causes generated by their actions. It leaves each one to judge for himself/herself what he/she is, what he/she understands, and what are his/her hopes -- dreams and beliefs.

    This pathway we travel is not imposed by anyone, not by a God overseeing or overpowering us; it is the reality of Nature that dictates. From the moment a man or woman is born on earth, he/she enters a cycle he/she cannot escape until the cause of the disharmony, which they created, have been exhausted.

    To believe or not to believe is one and the same. Be good, be just, be charitable, and the sooner you will reap ILLUMINATION. Be evil, be cruel, be egotistical, whether you believe or not, it will come back to you. Cause and effect.

    So -to answer your question in Zen fashion..NO - I would behave the same way, due to who I AM -*S*S*S

    Oh and Free Spirt -Dorika is referring to the Holographic Nature of our Universe, remember the book I told you about *S*S*S*S I have the book, hint hint.

    ------------------
    Deborah

    Memory is an abstract painting - it does not present things as they are, but rather as they feel. --Eugenia Collier
     
  7. revericson

    revericson New Member

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    Isn't that a little like asking if there was positive proof that "love" was nonexistent would it change your present behavior?
     
  8. Free Spirt

    Free Spirt Senior Registered

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    revericson; you said:

    "Isn't that a little like asking if there was positive proof that "love" was nonexistent would it change your present behavior?"

    Please say more...I don't think so...I am speaking about a belief system and I think love is an emotion...I don't think they are like comparing apples to apples. Help me out here if I am missing something...I am wanting to PLAY with this idea... so...would your behaviors differ IF... ??
     
  9. nexus

    nexus Senior Registered

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    I would be tempted to agree with those who say that subtle beliefs in SOMETHING that is not just chaotic,even if it is subconscious, is really in the heart of MOST humans...religious, spiritual or NOT.
    Without this we actually DO see a lot of depression and even suicidal mentalities.
    I do not believe KARMA enters into this as it is actualy a law of nature in general..in the here and now...materialist or spiritualist.

    Yes, people DO create religions and belief SYSTEMS to bring order to their lives.This isn't to say that there are not many observed and experienced TRUTHS hidden among the trappings of the labels we sometimes give our beliefs.

    So, without this I would have to say I MIGHT be a more despondent person, even if my general nature would be to empathize with my fellow creature.

    On an related note: In almost all cases I have noticed a very different attitude from those who believe in reincarnation about death(and birth) to those who don't.In fact I can even remember a time when I used to say to myself"I only wish I could believe in such a thing as afterlife etc...It seems to create such peace!" Now, I can truly state that I FEEL that spiritual truths are more likely than total chaos.This, after years of living, learning and observing for myself!

    I am presently dealing with the imminent death of my wonderful father.While I can still see hope in my dad's ongoing "future" as a soul, (and unable to belabour my explanation of why that is)my family seems very disappointed that I am not showing an "appropriate" amount of misery...which, by the way they cannot help but pass on to my dad.They insist on reminding me that my dad is DYING..as if I'm not aware.

    I clearly see a big difference in the way I live when I keep this in mind...even if I am not always consciously aware of it.
    Does that help at all?
    Love,Nexus

    ------------------
    "I am a part of all that I have met"
    Alfred Lord Tennyson
     
  10. Free Spirt

    Free Spirt Senior Registered

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    Hi nexus, nice of you to weigh in. I am glad you have come out to PLAY.

    YOu said:

    SOMETHING that is not just chaotic,even if it is subconscious, is really in the heart of MOST humans...religious, spiritual or NOT.
    Without this we actually DO see a lot of depression and even suicidal mentalities

    Where do you get your data for this statement? i work in the mental health field and can show where much mental illness esulting form guilt is a direct result of "spiritual" beliefs. I have worked with and performed research on depression and suicidal people...so I am curious where your data comes from...

    You also said:

    In almost all cases I have noticed a very different attitude from those who believe in reincarnation about death(and birth) to those who don't.

    Can you say more about this?... Those who believe this is all there is..and accept that... seem to face their mortality much better than those who do not acknowledge their mortality and thus "create" an afterlife.

    and you said:

    So, without this I would have to say I MIGHT be a more despondent person, even if my general nature would be to empathize with my fellow creature.

    I am sorry to hear you MIGHT choose to be more desponsent...however who your behaviors toward others on this planet be any different?

    I am awaiting replies from all in anticipation of some good discussion and fun!

    Its the journey!!!
     
  11. Free Spirt

    Free Spirt Senior Registered

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    I said

    "however who your behaviors"

    should be " however wouldyour..." sorry i will start proofing better
     
  12. charmed

    charmed inquisitor

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    Free Spirit,

    Ofcourse not everybody needs a 'theory' even if they don't believe in anything at all, that's why I stated 'probably'.

    I think pretty much most of the world needs tangible evidence to support belief systems. But on the other hand Just because something is not yet tangible doesn't mean it's not real. I am more materialistic, but I do believe things that I think are true regardless of what other people say, because it is my theory, it's what I've worked out inside my head. I think Philosophy is the best key to organise our view of the world, instead of just solely clinging unto facts which keep changing from time to time.

    Exactly , how do we determine what is considered as a FACT most of the time.

    What I meant before is that some people who are religious, who truly cling unto God and believes that he is real can be compared with the similarities of a child waiting for Santa Claus and behaving at Christmas.

    Okay, they don't have to be religious, or spiritual, they don't have to believe in reincarnation, They probably have other belief systems. With the Santa Claus and sugar out of candy thing, I wanted to state out that other people's opinions or confidence are treated much the same way, So if somebody proved reincarnation wrong, or other beliefs, then ofcourse it would be disappointing wouldn't it?...

    But on the other hand everybody has a choice, They can either accept the new evidence over the flawed, or they can continue to believe their theories or assumptions,

    After all you stated; How do we determine what is FACT?, And before you said: " If you receive evidence of flawed thinking...change your thinking ...and belief system...no problem... just don't use subjective experiences and unprovable phemonema as evidence! " - So you do depend on facts as you change your beliefs because of evidence..But what is Evidence really and how can we be so sure?. Didn't you say that about FACt before? I'm sorry but You're not making any sense..please explain.



    [This message has been edited by charmed (edited 07-16-2002).]
     
  13. Free Spirt

    Free Spirt Senior Registered

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    charmed: I'm charmed !!!!Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Yur not the first to indicate I am making no sense, but as I have stated "It's the journey" and I do get lost sometimes...and continue to smell the roses along the way even if I am lost.... please help me under stand which statements or questions are making no sense so I can rethink them and perhaps be a bit more "senseical" (is that a word?)... I will reply to some of your questions and comments later as I am really tied up at the moment, but did want to thank you for you thoughts and invite others to offer their thoughts
     
  14. amazingrandy

    amazingrandy Senior Registered

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    "IF there were no reincarnation, no karma, no god, no religion, no before or after life how would you live differently, if at all and why?"

    I would focus on my true passion in life... Stamp Collecting.

    In all honesty, I would continue to search for the truth.

    AmazingRandy
     
  15. Free Spirt

    Free Spirt Senior Registered

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    Randy you said "In all honesty, I would continue to search for the truth"

    That is a nice popular saying...what do YOU mean by it and how does that effect how you relate to your fellow human being and how does it effect any of your BEHAVIORS?

    Popular saings are usually very meaningless when examined from a critical point of view... Know of any exceptions?
     
  16. amazingrandy

    amazingrandy Senior Registered

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    I apologize for my lack of clarity. In addition, I did not intend to minimize your query by my quick quip. By “truth” I mean really what is the true make up of our reality? What are the limits of that make up? How can we use what we learn of our reality to further the development or even evolution of man? If “this” is all there is what exactly is “this”, what are the implications and true limits of all “this”?

    Even if sufficient evidence regarding reincarnation, karma, god, religion, before/after life were put forth as being bunk there are still a myriad of other "truths" to search for.

    Why are we here? What is consciousness? Can we transfer that consciousness ourselves? Can man "invent" reincarnation? Can science help man become immortal? Is there intelligent life outside of Earth's atmosphere? Can a physical object travel from point A to point B faster than light? Is time travel to the past possible? Can we reverse the aging process? In addition, I am sure you yourself can come up with many more.

    An important aspect to your question, I feel, really deals with an individuals meaning of life. For some, initially, their lives would probably suffer a loss of meaning. These people would have to find new meaning. I believe it is really the individual’s responsibility to make their own life meaningful, by their own definition. However, I am certain anyone’s current paradigm for life will fit this new paradigm albeit with a few modifications.

    As for how it would change my behavior. Being very skeptical of fringe ideas I am not a devote believer in reincarnation, karma, god, religion, before/after life I do not foresee much change in my personal behavior. However, if I had been a devote believer I would expect to be more appreciative of the time I have now. I would be more caring and attentive to the family/friends while there are here in my life. I would take steps to ensure certain things never go unsaid or undone. Moreover, as I stated previously, I’d continue to search for more truth in our present reality.

    Hope this helps.
    AmazingRandy
     
  17. charmed

    charmed inquisitor

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    Hi Amazingrandi,


    We are here because we exists, although I still wonder why, but overall we are just here to replenish.

    As evolution progressed into more and more complex structures in animals such as the growth enlargement of the brain in apes: such as chimps and mankind, information about time in the outside world could be analysed and stored in the brain, the concept of past, present and future, and having the ability to rationalize and to tell the difference between those events, gradually evolved into - Self Awareness / Consciousness, to know that you exist. (chimps also have this too)


    (I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean with the other two)

    Well, as we live further in time, our cells keep copying again and again, and after a long period, within the DNA strand this line which is responsible for the amount of cellular production gradually decreases, the more cells die, more cells are born and so on, until this line runs out is the point where the body can no longer reproduce anymore cells and dies. Scientists are currently researching of ways to make this line longer, therefore undergo longer life span or in the future manifest ways to cease its boundaries. - Death can no longer be something inescapable. An ageless, immortal generation immerges.

    Okay, just because we have only seen the abundance of life on earth, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist anywhere else. We know that with the proper temperature, that is with a liquid mantle within a planet can produce enough heat to escape through vents and a gradual build up of atmosphere is attained - clouds evaporate into seas of water; an organic element, and also heat from the sun so heat is longer sustainable. We know that life produces oxygen on earth, seen in primitive bacteria, a great amount of oxygen such as the ozone layer in a planet can determine the presence of life forms.

    In physics, the speed of light is the fastest, nothing can measure up to the speed of light. Perhaps there could be something faster than light in the near future, or something as fast as the speed of light, But not yet as of now..

    Oh my favourite, time travel, Well, except the movie theaters, but right now... it's just an abstract concept. But that would be interesting though...

    -Well those are some of answers or controversies that science is already researching about..
     
  18. Deborah

    Deborah Executive Director Staff Member

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    Hi Randy

    Are you familiar with the work of Fred Alan Wolf? He has a new book that looks very interesting called The Spiritual Universe --it offers a new vision, based on quantum physics and modern science in general, of evidence for the physical presence of the soul.

    Fred Alan Wolf

    ------------------
    Deborah

    Memory is an abstract painting - it does not present things as they are, but rather as they feel. --Eugenia Collier


    [This message has been edited by Deborah (edited 07-19-2002).]
     
  19. amazingrandy

    amazingrandy Senior Registered

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    charmed,

    Sure, being a scientist I am well aware of this fact. I appreciate your answers, however I was being rhetorical. I suppose they do involve studies in which I have special interest. My intention was to demonstrate that there are other aspects to our universe to be excited about and explore even if reincarnation, karma, god, religion, before/after life were proven untrue.

    AmazingRandy

    [This message has been edited by amazingrandy (edited 07-19-2002).]
     
  20. amazingrandy

    amazingrandy Senior Registered

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    Deborah,
    I have not read his book. But, I will add him to my booklist.

    AmazingRandy
     

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