• Thank you to Carol and Steve Bowman, the forum owners, for our new upgrade!

Spirits who refuse to reincarnate

I just can't wrap my mind around this concept of exit points. I will admit I never heard about it before reading it just recently on this forum.


If a soul can choose to take an exit point because the incarnation is too much for them to handle, isn't that rather selfish to those left behind? The husbands, wives, children, parents, friends etc?


For example, my friend's husband was killed in a car accident last year. They had a great marriage, two kids and one on the way. He had a job he loved and a nice home. I just can't understand how in a situation like this a soul might decide to exit...his death caused my friend *so* much pain and hardship her life will never ever be the same.
 
kemetic18 said:
I just can't wrap my mind around this concept of exit points. I will admit I never heard about it before reading it just recently on this forum.
If a soul can choose to take an exit point because the incarnation is too much for them to handle, isn't that rather selfish to those left behind? The husbands, wives, children, parents, friends etc?


For example, my friend's husband was killed in a car accident last year. They had a great marriage, two kids and one on the way. He had a job he loved and a nice home. I just can't understand how in a situation like this a soul might decide to exit...his death caused my friend *so* much pain and hardship her life will never ever be the same.
Click to expand...
I think exit points might not be entire self-conscious and there are cases where they are inevitable so don't judge all deaths as decided by the individual.


I wanted to elaborate on the self-conscious thing.


When an exit point reveals itself we might not notice, but if our soul is tired it might subconsciously take that point instead of living, just like a person who really wants to live(both consciously and sub-consciously) might be able to pass that exit point. My first 4 exit points I lived because I myself sought to live(even though I started to regret it later, but that is another story) and so I took basically destiny in my own hands. I survived because the spirit wanted to live at that time.


In the end we don't really know why what happens and can only make guesses like we are doing with exit points, but remember that a spirit can get tired. You see it all the time when people have been sick for a long time or are getting very old, as soon as their spirit loses the will the person dies.
 
From experience I have come to believe that often whether one lives or dies doesn't necessarily have anything to do whether the soul/higher self wants to end the life or not. There are many factors that go into it, and the idea that things only happen according to the soul's/higher self's plan would imply some sort of determinism. For example Anita M, one of the NDE accounts I posted had cancer, as she was dying of cancer and had her NDE she was made to understand that she was never meant to get cancer, it wasn't her time and that if she came back into life the cancer would be gone. Having had cancer myself I know that there doesn't need to be the approval of a higher being for life threatening illness to appear in the body, and I assume the same would be true for car accidents.
 
Green26 said:
From experience I have come to believe that often whether one lives or dies doesn't necessarily have anything to do whether the soul/higher self wants to end the life or not. There are many factors that go into it, and the idea that things only happen according to the soul's/higher self's plan would imply some sort of determinism. For example Anita M, one of the NDE accounts I posted had cancer, as she was dying of cancer and had her NDE she was made to understand that she was never meant to get cancer, it wasn't her time and that if she came back into life the cancer would be gone. Having had cancer myself I know that there doesn't need to be the approval of a higher being for life threatening illness to appear in the body, and I assume the same would be true for car accidents.
Click to expand...
True, but I also know that an exit point is looming very close to me(no, not suicide) and it is just this feeling of dread that hovers above you like a nagging feeling in the back of your head. The question now would be whether my spirit continues or not. The body is willing, but the spirit is a harder thing to crack. I technically have to be a hyperchondriac to get over this feeling and do all in my power to avoid the EP.
 
I think you are referring to the body's most basic survival mechanisms, which make it hard to starve yourself etc, but you can actually will your body to die if you will it hard enough ( I know, that's how I got cancer). Scientist Candace Pert refers to the body as our subconscious, in that the thoughts, beliefs and emotions we create and experience while in our bodies will be reflected in the body as a state of health or disease.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if people could exert this negative physical effect on themselves by projecting outside the body. Maybe an accident could be a manifestation of a spirit that is tired and scarred.
 
Some, although I am not ready to say all accidents are the manifestation of something going on deeper in your consciousness. If you are familiar with the chakra system, each chakra governs a different aspect of your consciousness/different part of your life. Some years ago I was tricked into going to work in a foreign country and got exploited by my employer, who threw me out on the street and cancelled my visa. The created a huge amount of stress understandably, and the next day after this happened I fell in the subway and broke my leg. The legs are governed by the root chakra which is associated with survival,-shelter, home, job, money etc. I know many other people who have had accidents under similar circumstances. I just don't know if it applies to all accidents.


And it is not necessarily the manifestation of a spirit that is tired, but merely a person that is tired, stressed, sad, angry, depressed etc. Like I said you don't need the permission of a higher being for these things to happen.
 
I am usually referring to the body and spirit as the same thing, it is just that the spirit can be ill while the body is healthy.
 
If the spirit is ill for long enough and with enough intensity the body will reflect the illness of the spirit and become ill too.
 
kemetic18 said:
If a soul can choose to take an exit point because the incarnation is too much for them to handle, isn't that rather selfish to those left behind? The husbands, wives, children, parents, friends etc?
For example, my friend's husband was killed in a car accident last year. They had a great marriage, two kids and one on the way. He had a job he loved and a nice home. I just can't understand how in a situation like this a soul might decide to exit...his death caused my friend *so* much pain and hardship her life will never ever be the same.
Click to expand...
Unlike Green in some ways, I think that a great deal of "exit points", or human tragedy may have been preplanned between the souls involved. While your friend's situation is truly heartbreaking, it almost appears that the difference between how good it was and how bad it became provides a truly strong comparison, and imagine the experience in learning to love and remain positive through the difficulty of having it all and having it all taken away in an apparently senseless accident. The possibilities for growth through such pain is tremendous. My thought is that as souls we don't look at things as over and done with death, and those we love are always there with us. I am not saying your friends planned this or chose it or needed to do it, I am simply stating the possibility that it may have worked out that way. As for being selfish, I think that is a purely human emotion...in spirit we are always cognizant of the effects of our actions, and the possibilities of every potential outcome of any act or occurrence.


I understand Green's point that a planned exit point smacks of determinism, and while I am aware of free will and have used it, sometimes to my detriment in this lifetime, I sense that there is more of a pull from our higher selves directing us along a path than not. How we chose to live that path and deal with the issues presented can have dramatic results within our physical bodies, both good and bad.
 
usetawuz said:
Unlike Green in some ways, I think that a great deal of "exit points", or human tragedy may have been preplanned between the souls involved.
Click to expand...
Why? Just curious why you believe this, I have my own reasons for seeing things differently, namely personal experience, is there any experience you have had that leads you to certain conclusions regarding pre-life planning?
 
Green26 said:
It is not based on a few NDEs, but a multitude of phenomena, Michael Talbot wrote a whole book on it called the Holographic universe. You are making an assumption that reincarnation, mediumship, death bed visions etc are not compatible with a concept of oneness. That assumption is not correct. Please provide links to literature that you feel proves otherwise. Here are 15 "cherry picked" NDEs for you that convey this concept of a non-dual afterlife:
Click to expand...
15 NDEs is very tiny minority. Like I wrote earlier, that is cherry picking.


Survival related research as a whole clearly suggests that there is separation in the afterlife.


How do you explain cases like these?


http://notendur.hi.is/erlendur/english/Apparitions/JP2009rl2_Haraldsson.pdf


Characteristics of a NDE:


http://iands.org/about-ndes/characteristics.html


Distressing NDEs:


http://iands.org/about-ndes/distressing-ndes.html


"Drop in" case:


http://notendur.hi.is/erlendur/english/mediums/Runki.pdf


All these survival related articles:


http://www.scientificexploration.org/journal/articles.html
 
I think the world is only deterministic to a point. It will not interfere directly, but it will allow you to choose and doesn't really judge.


I can tell from my experiences that coincidences are rarely that. At one time, just before starting my transition, I was going through a deep depression regarding everything and nothing. At that time the universe showed me several things.


It showed me that there is hope although it can be difficult to realize it.


It also showed me how I could easily get myself plastics that would release cyanide vapours when heated.


I know I sound like an insane person by saying this, but the universe is always chatting away in the background. Sometimes it feels like it is taunting you to go on, but there are times when it says: "Alright, life seems to be hard and won't get better. Here is an option for you to exit. It won't be easy, most likely painful, and will leave a scar where you once were."


I have gone through some deep depressions and every time I felt desolation I'd see so many coincidences that I almost literally became angry at the world. I was angry at it for tempting me with hope; I was angry that there existed hope. When people talk about guardian spirits I just think of the universe and how it gives signs in weirdest places. I'd even venture so far to say that there is more chance now than ever for signs as our senses are inundated with endless stream of imagery, text and voice. The world no longer relies on having you interpret an eagle hunting mice at a certain time of day as it can now use the endless creation of mankind to communicate.


(I'll head back to the loony bin now)
 
Kohr-Ah said:
15 NDEs is very tiny minority. Like I wrote earlier, that is cherry picking.
Click to expand...
Could have easily provided you with 100 or more, but didn't see the need, I don't need to spam this thread with 100+ links to NDE accounts.

Kohr-Ah said:
How do you explain cases like these?
Click to expand...
I explain them as following:


Characteristics of a NDE:


Intense emotions: commonly of profound peace, well-being, love; others marked by fear, horror, loss


The intense emotions will vary depending on the way the person died, and are normally at the start of the experience. A near death experience is not an event, it is a series of events, as the NDE progresses human emotions become less prominent.


A perception of seeing one's body from above (called an out-of-body experience, or OBE), sometimes watching medical resuscitation efforts or moving instantaneously to other places


This happens at the start of the NDE (moving simultaneously from one place to another implies non-locality, BTW)


Rapid movement through darkness, often toward an indescribable light


This happens close to the start of the NDE and is often influenced by the beliefs of the person just died, moving towards a bright light seems to be Christian imagery.


A sense of being "somewhere else," in a landscape that may seem like a spiritual realm or world


This takes place in the buffer zone, it is not the final destination of soul just departed.


Incredibly rapid, sharp thinking and observations


This occurs as the person becomes aware of the great all that is, and the illusion of duality fades away. Many have described life as being asleep, or a dream, and death is waking up to a much greater awareness. Omniscience would not be possible in a state of duality, but becomes highly probable in a non-dual state.


Encounter with deceased loved ones, possibly sacred figures (the Judges, Jesus, a saint) or unrecognized beings, with whom communication is mind-to-mind; these figures may seem consoling, loving, or terrifying


This takes place in the first area of transition of the afterlife, not the final stop.
 
A life review, reliving actions and feeling their emotional impact on others


This doesn’t really have anything to do with what we are discussing, which is duality versus oneness


In some cases, a flood of knowledge about life and the nature of the universe


Again, this is the result of merging into a singular state of consciousness.


Sometimes a decision to return to the body


not relevant to what we are discussing.


Distressing NDEs


The most common type included the same features as the pleasurable type such as an out-of-body experience and rapid movement through a tunnel or void toward a light but the NDEr, usually because of feeling out of control of what was happening, experienced the features as frightening.


The tunnel is not necessarily even part of the afterlife, it can be experienced during deep meditation, I have experienced it during meditation and it is a very real sensation of being pulled forward.


The second, less common type included an acute awareness of nonexistence or of being completely alone forever in an absolute void. Sometimes the person received a totally convincing message that the real world including themselves never really existed.


This is a temporary experience created within the buffer zone of the afterlife


The third and rarest type included hellish imagery such as an ugly or foreboding landscape; demonic beings; loud, annoying noises; frightening animals; and other beings in extreme distress. Only rarely have such NDErs themselves felt personally tormented.


This is also a temporary experience created within the buffer zone of the afterlife heavily influenced by religious imagery of the person who has died. Ever wondered why Christian NDEs report seeing Jesus, Hindu NDEs report seeing Hindu deities and so on? A belief in hell is going to contribute to the possibility of hellish images in the buffer zone.
 
Spirits who refuse to reincarnate

Green26 said:
It is not based on a few NDEs, but a multitude of phenomena, Michael Talbot wrote a whole book on it called the Holographic universe.
Click to expand...
I read that book 'The Holographic Universe'.


I guess I can show my review from amazon.com. I gave it 4 stars out of 5.


That's a famous book and has 267 customer reviews on amazon.com which is a high number.


As I was looking for my review on amazon I found this morbid comment:


4 of 9 people found the following review helpful:


2.0 out of 5 stars


Sad, August 11, 2010


By Reviewimus Prime "Reviewimus Prime" (Cambridge, MA) -


See all my reviews


This review is from: The Holographic Universe (Paperback)


I'm not going to repeat what others have already said here, just state one fact. Michael Talbot claims that because of the holographic theory and it's connection to the human mind, diseases can be cured just by willing them away. Michael Talbot died of leukemia in 1992, the year after this book was published.


The two stars are for the first section...the rest is just wishful thinking, I'm afraid.


_____________________________________________


5 of 6 people found the following review helpful:


Interesting For New Agers, November 24, 2005


This review is from: The Holographic Universe (Paperback)


This book attempts to prove that the universe has similar characteristics to a hologram. But the term 'universe' here goes far beyond the physical universe. I also includes other dimensions such as where people go when they are in between lives.


Those other dimensions are like looking at the hologram from different angles I guess and the past and future are already contained in this hologram.


A holograph is created by combining the images of an object with another image of that same object that has been reflected from mirrors. If a holographic image is broken apart each fragment contains the 'memory' of the entire image and can be used to reconstruct the entire image. I don't think anyone knows how this is possible.


This is then related to the holographic universe consisting of a direct image from 'God' and an indirect reflection of God from us:


"...our universe is constantly created and sustained by two wavelike flows, one from heaven and one coming from our own soul or spirit."


However it gets into a lot of new age topics which will mainly be interesting if you're a new ager. I am so I found it interesting.


There's a quite a few places where it talks about various things and then throws in the word 'hologram' once in awhile to remind the reader about the title of the book.


This is a good book if you want to find out about other new age authors and topics for further reading. It pulls in everything from mythology to UFOs.


Fulcanelli: Master Alchemist: Le Mystere des Cathedrales, Esoteric Intrepretation of the Hermetic Symbols of The Great Work (Le Mystere Des Cathedrales ... of the Hermetic Symbols of Great Work)


The Giza Power Plant : Technologies of Ancient Egypt


The Mystery of the Crystal Skulls: Unlocking the Secrets of the Past, Present, and Future


The Lives of Edgar Cayce


Lives of the Master: The Rest of the Jesus Story


Edgar cayce's story of the origin and destiny of man


Secret Life: Firsthand, Documented Accounts of UFO Abductions


Ufo...Contact from Planet Iarga


The Outer Limits - The Original Series, Season 1
 
The case of the drop in doesn’t really prove anything regarding whether or not the afterlife is a duality or not. Can you tell me how it does?


And your reference to the studies of After Death Communications, apparitions etc does not really prove anything regarding the continuance of a physical/separate form in the afterlife. If the dead were trying to communicate to the living, a projection of a former physical form would probably be most effective for recognition, smells, sounds are also reported, but they all seem to be a conscious manipulation of energy, and probably should not be taken literally. Also many of these apparitions of people who had reccently died were probably in the buffer zone or the upper world as it is known in shamanism. It is not the final destination of the soul.


Given the large amount of articles you provided in the last link, are there any that you feel are particularly relevant here?


So in a nutshell, NDEs are not just one event, they are a series of events, and the further they progress the less influenced they become by earthly imagery. The universe is described as having several different layers to it:

The stream had distinct layers or levels that were not divided by any kind of barrier but each seemed to be of a different density. The one I experienced was the highest level. Where I first came after death was into the lowest level; I call it the "between place" or "lowest level of transition."
Click to expand...


So the higher you get the less dense and separate your experience becomes.
 
There has been a study on NDEs in the Netherlands that suggests exactly that.

Findings 62 patients (18%) reported NDE, of whom 41
(12%) described a core experience. Occurrence of the


experience was not associated with duration of cardiac


arrest or unconsciousness, medication, or fear of death


before cardiac arrest. Frequency of NDE was affected by


how we defined NDE, the prospective nature of the


research in older cardiac patients, age, surviving cardiac


arrest in first myocardial infarction, more than one


cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) during stay in


hospital, previous NDE, and memory problems after


prolonged CPR. Depth of the experience was affected by


sex, surviving CPR outside hospital, and fear before cardiac


arrest. Significantly more patients who had an NDE,


especially a deep experience, died within 30 days of CPR


. The process of transformation after NDE took


several years, and differed from those of patients who


survived cardiac arrest without NDE.
Click to expand...


This particular NDE clearly demonstrates the purpose of seeing dead relatives, religious figures etc:


Did you see a light? Yes It began as a small dot. I had no reference point on whether it was approaching me or if I was moving toward it. It enveloped me. It is Light, It is alive, It is brilliant beyond any description. So alive, so totally home and complete love.


No human unprepared could encounter this and live. Unprepared, you die, without question.


Did you meet or see any other beings? Yes Again, the first encounter was with what I was sure was the Virgin Mary of my Catholic upbringing. The most frightful part of the NDE are the moments I took initiative and asked questions. It took a lot of moving beyond the fear to be so bold but I asked, "Are you really the Mother Mary?" Instantly I saw what I already sensed was happening here. Every molecule in my being suddenly seemed to leap with joy on the new knowledge and understanding, no, it was not the Virgin Mary. You are approaching home. The need to have it be the Mother Mary fades.


Did you experience a review of past events in your life? Yes As with my initial vision of the Virgin Mary, I have the belief similar visions of angels, or departed family members are buffers against the reality of what the mind is experiencing. Depending on the country or region these buffers are predictable. Most accept them without question.


http://www.nderf.org/robert_b's_nde.htm
 
Green26 said:
Why? Just curious why you believe this, I have my own reasons for seeing things differently, namely personal experience, is there any experience you have had that leads you to certain conclusions regarding pre-life planning?
Click to expand...
My primary reasons are based on the views I've had into my pre-life planning. Had I survived the auto accident in 1905 I would have died in my forties of a convenient disease when others in my soul group had transitioned as well, and would have had a subsequent lifetime wherein I was to die in Viet Nam, which would have placed me in my next life here and now as a ten year old. As it was, after dying in 1905, I had a brief (ten years) lifetime in which I planned to again die early, getting hit by a car enabling my mother to attempt to properly mourn my passing (as my sister she didn't deal well with my death in 1905)...my subsequent life was that of a soldier and I checked off the "modern war death experience" box in WWII.


What I have seen in pre-life planning is an amazing, instantaneous depiction of the possibilities in each potential incarnation...not only what might occur, but what each experience may lead to, both in that lifetime and subsequent possibilities. Death is simply a transition out of one lifetime back home, then planning begins for the next with a view to the future from there. To me, disease is one way to exit...one of my soulmates may undergo breast cancer and it will be her choice to use it as an exit point or to find a way to survive it with the inherent difficulty that will entail (it will not be found early). If her life takes another direction, she will forego the cancer experience...she has yet to decide... and she chose a difficult lifetime here, one in which she may choose to succumb to the disease and check out early.


While I agree that environmental factors and issues of physical bodies being out of balance can and do cause illness and death, however the sense I get is that there is very little that occurs as a surprise...and the decisions we make while incarnate and our methods of dealing with arising issues all have known repercussions that can result in illness-creating imbalances.


This is my perspective, and I hope I was clear...please don't hesitate to ask for clarification. This is an interesting topic.
 
usetawuz said:
What I have seen in pre-life planning is an amazing, instantaneous depiction of the possibilities in each potential incarnation...not only what might occur, but what each experience may lead to, both in that lifetime and subsequent possibilities. Death is simply a transition out of one lifetime back home, then planning begins for the next with a view to the future from there. To me, disease is one way to exit...one of my soulmates may undergo breast cancer and it will be her choice to use it as an exit point or to find a way to survive it with the inherent difficulty that will entail (it will not be found early). If her life takes another direction, she will forego the cancer experience...she has yet to decide... and she chose a difficult lifetime here, one in which she may choose to succumb to the disease and check out early.
Click to expand...
Where did you see all of this? Was it a psychic reading, a hypnotic regression, clairvoyant vision, or did you read it in a book?
 
Usetawuz, Thanks for what you posted above. Now what you posted about as concerning pre-life planning makes sense. Gonna have to think on this. This is because I have had quite a few, it seems espicelly in my youth, at times where I could have passed on to the other side. And after several real close Grizzly Encounters a few years ago, have felt that I have had espicelly a new lease on life. Thanks Again and Have a Good Day!
 
I usually automatically awaken at about 3:30 am, and when I awaken I have a clear memory of what and where I have just been. Sometimes I have simple, nonsensical dreams while other times I have full recollections of visions which are usually more clear than a memory and include a full sense of nearly overwhelming emotion. They are customarily about people and places I am going to meet and see (only one has occurred true to the vision to date), but some have been clear views into what I consider afterlife matters and they provide extremely detailed views of things like my pre-life planning session, a life-plan effectiveness analysis, a goodbye to a soulmate, and a see ya later to loved ones just prior to being born into this lifetime, etc.


I have done self hypnosis or meditation (they seem like the same thing to me) to obtain greater understanding of some of the visions and received what I considered validation. I also have a close friend who is a talented medium with whom I have discussed alot of these events. Often she has been able to view the visions and fill in details as I describe them to her. Some of this dove-tails with what has been written in various books on the topic while others differ but only by degree or interpretation.


What I have written on this board are reflections of my own understanding of how we live, both here and there. There may be as many different truths or realities as there are people holding them. (Or, as Shiftkitty says "your mileage may vary".) My only hope is that what I have found may help someone else make sense of their experience, both here and there.
 
Green26, my last message disappeared, when I tried to submit it. I don't have time or interest to write it again, so I'll quit this debate.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top