9/11 - Child in England remembers being an American firefighter

Discussion in 'Children's Past Lives -Age 7 & under' started by ukmom, Oct 26, 2006.

  1. GuySittingintheStands

    GuySittingintheStands Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2017
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    63
    Summer785 - Maybe. Dan Potter may have been a fellow firefighter with whom UK_mom's son's past-life personality worked. Problem is we don't have a name or rank or company or firehouse or anything that we could use to connect him to Dan. To complicate matters Dan worked as member of several FDNY companies before 9/11. Most FDNY firefighters from 2001 knew dozens (if not dozens and dozens) of their fellow firefighters who were killed that day. (343 members of the FDNY were killed on 9/11.)
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2021
  2. GuySittingintheStands

    GuySittingintheStands Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2017
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    63
    Summer785 - Connection between UK_mom's son's past-life personality and Dan Potter, John Morabito, or Ladder 10? Only one firefighter from Ladder 10 was killed on 9/11 but the connection would be pretty flimsy without further information.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2021
  3. GuySittingintheStands

    GuySittingintheStands Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2017
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    63
    On the other hand Dan Potter, although permanently assigned to Ladder 31 in the South Bronx, had recently volunteered for a 90-day temporary duty assignment with Ladder 10 at the "10&10" (10-house/ Engine 10/Ladder 10) on Liberty St. right across the street from the WTC complex and a half a block down the street from 2 WTC (the south tower). This was very convenient for Dan as he and his wife Jean lived in an apartment only two blocks away in Battery Park City (Dennis Smith, Report from Ground Zero, 2002: 45). So now Ladder 10's John Morabito's reply to Dan's wife in the underground WTC concourse (mall) that he knew Dan and knew that he was OK makes sense, since Dan, in fact, was working with them at Ladder 10 at the 10&10 firehouse.

    UK mom mentioned that her son brought up the name "pata" multiple times (post #1, page 1) during role play with his sisters. Assuming that "pata" refers to Dan Potter then it is entirely possible that UK mom's son was one of the fallen firefighters from the 10&10 firehouse (aka Ten-house). I believe Ladder 10 (mercifully) lost only one firefighter on 9/11, a young probationary firefighter named Sean Tallon. I'll check to see how many FFs were lost from Engine 10.

    So Summer785 may have swerved into something here.

    Here is a short obituary for FDNY firefighter Sean Tallon:
    https://www.firehero.org/fallen-firefighter/sean-patrick-tallon/

    PS. Engine 10 lost a Lieutenant named Gregg Atlas and 2 firefighters. Were any more lost from this firehouse? I'll check.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2021
    Summer785 likes this.
  4. Summer785

    Summer785 Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2020
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    10
    Her son’s PP. Because he was mentioned “Pata” or whatever so much.
     
  5. GuySittingintheStands

    GuySittingintheStands Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2017
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    63
    Ten house lost 5 active firefighters and 1 retired Lt who was working as a Fire Safety Officer in the South Tower (2 WTC) when it collapsed. Of the five active FFs there were 2 officers and 3 firefighters who were lost -- 1 from Ladder 10 and 3 from Engine 10 (1 officer and 2 FFs). Probably a toss-up between Lt Atlas (of Engine 10) and the young probie Sean Tallon of Ladder 10. UK mom's comment about dogs in the back of a truck suggests a life-style centered on the outdoors -- but this could apply to either man. I think you can rule out the retired fire safety officer, and one or two of the active FFs ( eg., FF Steve Harrell who was an accomplished musician) but we'd need more detailed info to pin it down to one individual.

    PS. No losses reported for Dan Potter's home company, Ladder 31, which keeps the focus on the FDNY 10&10 firehouse ("Ten-house") in lower Manhattan across the street from the WTC complex (124 Liberty St.). But then again, Ladder 5, a company that Dan Potter also worked in, took heavy losses -- 2 Lieutenants and 6 firefighters.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2021
    Summer785 likes this.
  6. GuySittingintheStands

    GuySittingintheStands Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2017
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    63
    UK Mom: "From around the age 3 he began giving us names. He especially talked lots about Lou and even gave us a surname. I had taken Lou to be a first name he was referring to but recently became aware that in America they have fire Leutenants. Would someone in the fire service refer to themselves as LEU(with surname) rather than Leutenant?. During role playing with his sisters he has talked lots about "pater/pata" is this an american term/name? I should add we personally don't know of any people with the names he mentioned. He has no problems around fire but is wary of elevators." (post #1, page 1)

    Two possibilities: "Lou" (Leu/ Lieu) could either refer to the informal, familiar, direct address form of "Lieutenant" (as in "OK, Lieu", "Got it, Lieu", "Lieu! What about . . .") or it could refer to the short form of the first name Louis, ie., "Lou".

    1) "Lou"(Leu/Lieu) short (for "Lieutenant") is the short, familiar, almost affectionate, direct address form of "Lieutenant". It is used by a Firefighter when addressing a Lieutenant, more than likely, his Lieutenant. A Fire Officer (Chief, Captain, Lieutenant) would not address a fellow Fire Officer as "Lou" (Leu/ Lieu), but instead use the officer's first name if he knew him, or Chief, Captain, or Lieutenant, or Chief, Captain, or Lieutenant So-and-So, if he didn't know him, out of respect for the rank. Point being, "Lou" (Leu/ Lieu) UK mom's son may have been referring to his Lieutenant, or whichever Lieutenant he happened to be associated with, presumably at the time of his death. Obviously, if UK mom's son was addressing one of his sisters (presumably older sister) than this could be very significant, as we suspect that it is a Lieutenant within a company or firehouse that both UK mom's son's Past Life Personality (PP) and FF Dan Potter worked in, ie., Ladder 10, Ladder 5, Ladder 31 (Dan Potter's home company), Engine 10. Since no one was lost from Ladder 31, we have to assume UK mom's son was a FF with Ladder 10 (Sean Tallon), Engine 10 (2 FFs lost), or Ladder 5 (6 FFs lost), all lost inside 1 WTC when the north tower collapsed at 10:28 am on 9/11.

    The other possibility is,

    2) "Lou" short for "Louis" the first name of a firefighter (or fire officer). UK mom said that "He especially talked lots about Lou and even gave us a surname." If her son were referring to himself, that is, his own past-life personality, then, again assuming that "pata" refers to Dan Potter, he may have been referring to Louis Arena, one of the firefighters from Ladder 5, who died in 1 WTC (the north tower) when it collapsed. Notice how UK mom phrases the reference (UK mom: "Would someone in the fire service refer to themselves as LEU (with surname). . . ?). Answer, no, he wouldn't. He wouldn't even use "Lieu" (Lou) + Surname when referring to a Lieutenant So-and-So, he would say, Lieutenant So-and-So. The way UK mom phrases it, we'd have to assume that "Lou" + Surname means Louis So-and-So. If this Louis died on 9/11 and "pata" refers to Dan Potter, who worked with Ladder 5 for most of 2001 before being temporarily re-assigned to Ladder 10 for 90 days sometime during the summer of 2001, then he could be referring to a) himself, ie., 32-year-old FF Lou Arena, Ladder 5, who died in the north tower on 9/11, or b) a fellow firefighter named Lou Arena, Ladder 5, who he must have known well, and may have died with him in the north tower.

    PS. No other FFs, first name "Louis", from Ladder 5, Ladder 10, or Engine 10 are listed among the fallen 9/11 firefighters. No firefighters from Ladder 31 were lost on 9/11.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2021
    Summer785 likes this.
  7. GuySittingintheStands

    GuySittingintheStands Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2017
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    63
    UK mom: "Would someone in the fire service refer to themselves as LEU (with surname). . ."

    Here UK mom means -- Would someone refer to themselves as Lieu (informal, familiar direct address form of Lieutenant) + Surname. Answer: No. Or to anyone else, for that matter. "Lieu" isn't used with a surname. So, "Lou" must mean "Louis".

    In an earlier post to this thread (post 7, page 1), Deborah mentioned that UK mom said her son responded to the number "2". Googling FDNY Ladder 5, one finds that Ladder 5 is quartered with Engine 24, and Battalion 2. (A battalion is a unit in the FDNY command structure above company level). A Battalion Chief commands 5 or 6 companies (3 or 4 firehouses) and is headquartered in one of its company firehouses, in this case, the firehouse housing Engine 24/ Ladder 5 in Greenwich Village, Manhattan, NYC. Everyone from Engine 24 made it out alive. Everyone from Ladder 5 who went into the towers, sadly, did not make it out and were killed when the north tower collapsed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_workers_killed_in_the_September_11_attacks).

    But who was UK mom's son referring to when he said "Lou (with Surname)"? Firefighter Louis Arena who died with his mates from Ladder 5 (2 Lieutenants and 5 other firefighters) or an as yet unidentified Louis from Ladder 5 (or Engine 24) who survived 9/11?

    A FDNY company consists of a captain, 3 Lieutenants, and 20 -25 firefighters.

    Furthermore: Dan Potter (whom UK mom's son may have referred to as "Pata") was a firefighter in FDNY Ladder 5 from about 1994 to June 2001, almost 7 years. He then transferred to Ladder 31 in July 2001 before taking a temporary assignment to Ladder 10 in mid- to late-August 2001 in the the 10&10 house in the shadow of the WTC complex. He happened to be off-duty on 9/11 and attending a Lieutenant exam study course on Staten Island when the planes flew into the WTC towers. He survived the attacks and retired from the FDNY in 2002.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2021
    Summer785 likes this.
  8. GuySittingintheStands

    GuySittingintheStands Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2017
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    63
    Re-reading UK mom's posts I can't find anything linking her son's past-life personality to 9/11, except maybe that he was an American fireman who died before her son's birth in October 2001. That's it. Anybody: Where's the connection to 9/11?
     
  9. GuySittingintheStands

    GuySittingintheStands Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2017
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    63
    UKmom posted this (post #16, page 1) regarding her 5-year-old son: "During role playing as well as names and giving his sisters orders he talked about putting his dogs in the back of the truck which I found a bit strange as we didn't own a dog (although we do now) and it was all very matter of fact." (boldface added).

    I have read that people (English-speaking people) in Birmingham, England and throughout the western midlands of England do say and spell mom "mom" as we do in America , and not as do the rest of England where they say "mum" for mom (familiar form of "mother"). That fact notwithstanding, do people in the western midlands of England also say "truck" either for a personal vehicle or for a commercial vehicle, where I believe common British English uses "lorry". What do the British say for what we in America would call a pick-up truck or simply truck when referring to a personal vehicle? Do you really say "truck"? Do you have a word for personal, privately-owned and privately-used lorries, or do you even have pick-up trucks in the UK?

    Is this UK "mom" an American mom living in England, or do you British readers think she is just catering to an American website, when she calls herself UKmom and uses the word truck?

    Why would a 5-year-old British boy use the word "truck", if indeed that is the word he used? If so, that would be remarkable. If not, this is an example of a mom "interpreting" what their young child is saying rather that telling us the actual language that the child used (indicated by using quotation marks).

    UK readers please help us out here.

    Also, in the UK would you ever say fire truck or do you use fire engine for both fire engine and fire truck (in American usage, a fire engine is a different apparatus than a fire truck which is also called a ladder truck). What would you call the apparatus that comes equipped with those very long extendable ladders mounted on top of the vehicle? In America they are called fire trucks, trucks, or ladder trucks.

    PS. When in doubt ask the internet. Here's a blog that goes over the differences between AmE truck and BrE lorry:
    https://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com/2009/05/trucks-and-lorries.html

    The UK really don't/doesn't have pick-up trucks, so in the event they would happen to see one, they would call it a pick-up truck. I don't think they would call it a truck, however, so I'm still mystified by UKmom's statement attributed to her son ("he talked about putting his dogs in the back of the truck"). What did she mean? What did he mean?
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2021
  10. GuySittingintheStands

    GuySittingintheStands Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2017
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    63
    Looking over UK mom's posts once again, I can definitely report that she is English or at least British (not American) --- she uses words like "whilst" (BrE) and spells program (AmE spelling) "programme" (BrE spelling); she writes things like "our" firemen (meaning UK firemen) and "fire service" which is more British terminology. So why does she also use "elevator" (AmE) instead of BrE lift? Why does she have her son say "putting his dogs in the back of his truck", when BrE doesn't use the word truck. Her 5-year-old, presumably a young British boy, really said "truck"? Sure, he could have picked it up from watching TV or the movies, but still . . . . That UKmom referred to herself as UKmom is not noteworthy since native English speakers from Birmingham, England and the western midlands in general use "mom" for more common BrE "mum".

    Only two of the 343 FDNY firefighters and fire officers killed on 9/11 had first name "Louis": FF Louis Arena of Ladder 5 and the Captain of Rescue 5, the Rescue Company for Staten Island. Furthermore, this Captain had been working for Rescue 5 since 1994, nearly 7 years up to 9/11. Dan Potter (our so-called "pata"), however, never worked for any FDNY company on Staten Island (although he was attending a Lieutenant exam course there on the morning of 9/11). But he had worked with Ladder 5 for nearly 7 years (1994 to June 2001), so presumably he would have known the members of Ladder 5/ Engine 24/ Battalion 2 fairly well. No members of Engine 24 were lost. Ladder 5 lost 2 Lieutenants and 5 other firefighters; Battalion 2 lost two Battalion Chiefs and a staff FF. Of course, we're assuming UKmom's thread is about a deceased firefighter/ fire officer lost on 9/11 which could be totally wrong since there is nothing tying her posts to 9/11. It's also true that the Louis ("Lou") she claimed her son talked about, may have been a 9/11 survivor, in which case, we would need to look over an FDNY active duty roster for 2001, if such a thing even exists, to look for any other possible FFs named "Louis" from Ladder 5 (or Ladder 31, Ladder 10 etc) with which Dan Potter also served. It's also possible that the "Lou" UKmom's son mentioned was the deceased firefighter himself, but, as I've been hinting at the last several posts, all this is pure speculation and to be taken with a grain of salt.
     
    Summer785 likes this.
  11. GuySittingintheStands

    GuySittingintheStands Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2017
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    63
    This is going to be a long post.

    UK mom:

    “From around the age 3 he began giving us names. He especially talked lots about Lou and even gave us a surname.”

    “I had taken Lou to be a first name he was referring to but recently became aware that in America they have fire Lieutenants. Would someone in the fire service refer to themselves as LEU(with surname) rather than Lieutenant?”

    “I myself did a search of firefighters who sadly died on 9/11 and had a partial match of a surname (not the first name) he mentioned.”

    UKmom’s son gave her the name of a firefighter he had known and presumably worked with. The name was Lou (as in “Louis”) which apparently didn’t match the surname (or partial surname) she found on the list of 343 fallen FDNY firefighters who died on 9/11. She then thought maybe the “Lou” wasn’t a first name, but may perhaps it was to be interpreted as “Lieu”, short for “Lieutenant”. Why would she have changed her mind? Could it be that the match (or partial match) of the surname was associated with a Lieutenant she had found on the list of fallen firefighters? If so, that would give us a clue. We would be looking for a FDNY company or firehouse that had lost a lieutenant, whose surname was a match or partial match of the surname her son had given her.

    What UKmom couldn’t figure out was what her son had meant by “pata”, a name used by her son during role play with his sisters. Summer785 guessed that this “pata” was somehow related to some FDNY firefighter “Dan Pata” mentioned in a youtube 9/11 video. When I watched the clip, I recognized the name of the firefighter as Dan Potter. FF Dan Potter had survived 9/11 as a member on temporary assignment with Ladder 10 at the “Ten House” (Engine 10 – Ladder 10 on Liberty St. right across the street from the WTC). He had only been with Ladder 10 for about 3 – 4 weeks before 9/11. Prior to Ladder 10, he had worked with Ladder 31 at the Engine 82 – Ladder 31 firehouse from June to mid-August 2001. Prior to Ladder 31, he had worked with Ladder 5 (and had been one of its chauffeurs) at Engine 24 – Ladder 5 firehouse for nearly 7 years (1994 – June 2001). This was a big clue as now we would be looking for a firehouse where Dan Potter had worked prior to 9/11.

    But what to do with the first name “Lou” that her son had given her? It couldn’t go with the surname (or partial surname) that her son had also given her, otherwise she would have picked it out from the list of fallen firefighters’ names. So now we have another name, Lou or “Louis” who must have survived 9/11. (There were only 2 FDNY firefighters named “Louis” who died on 9/11, neither of whom had a surname that came close to matching the surname UK mom’s son had given her.) This becomes another clue. Now we have a firehouse where Dan Potter had worked, had a FF named “Louis” who worked at that same firehouse and survived 9/11, and had a lieutenant from that firehouse who did not survive 9/11.

    Here is the list of firehouses where Dan Potter had worked since 1994:

    Engine 24 – Ladder 5 firehouse.

    Engine 82 – Ladder 31 firehouse.

    Engine 10 – Ladder 10 firehouse.

    Thankfully, no one from Engine 24, Engine 82, or Ladder 31 were lost. Ladder 10 lost only one man – a young probationary firefighter named Sean Tallon. Ladder 5, however, lost 2 lieutenants. And Engine 10 lost one lieutenant.

    (By the way, Dan Potter was friends with both lieutenants from Ladder 5 – Lieutenant Vincent G. and Lieutenant Michael W. having been their chauffeur. In fact, Lieutenant W. was a very good friend of Dan’s from what I’ve read. Dan would have known Engine 10’s lieutenant, Lt. Gregg A., but only because he worked in the same firehouse for 3 - 4 weeks in the summer of 2001, but not as a chauffeur.)

    So, if there were a firefighter named “Louis” who survived 9/11 and worked at the same firehouse as Dan Potter and one of the fallen lieutenants, then that would be the firehouse from which UK mom’s son’s PP had departed that ill-fated morning of Sept 11, 2001. He would be one of the firefighters from that firehouse – really, either from Ladder Company 5 of the E-24/L-5 firehouse, or from Engine Company 10 of the E-10/L-10 firehouse, who did not make it back.

    Anybody have a list of active duty FDNY firefighters who worked at Ladder 5 or Engine 10 in 2001-2002? I’d be looking for a FF named Louis on that list.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021 at 6:11 PM
  12. GuySittingintheStands

    GuySittingintheStands Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2017
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    63
    Assuming "pata" refers to FDNY FF Dan Potter, who survived 9/11, was working a temporary assignment at the 10&10 firehouse ("Tenhouse") from mid August 2001 - mid- November 2001, and had worked at the Engine 24 - Ladder 5 firehouse (with Ladder 5) for 7 years before that, here is a list of candidate firefighters for UKmom's son's PP (past-life personality):

    Ladder 5 – 9/11 Fallen Firefighters
    Lt. Vincent G., 40
    Lt. Michael W., 51
    FF Louis A., 32
    FF Andrew B., 28
    FF Thomas H., 36
    FF Paul K., 38
    FF John S., 49
    FF Gregory S., 31

    Engine 10 – 9/11 Fallen Firefighters
    Lt. Gregg A., 44
    FF Jeffrey O., 31
    He was a devoted father to his two children‚ as well as to his stepson. He enjoyed fishing and loved to
    camp with his family. . . . He was an avid outdoorsman who loved to fish‚ camp and kayak. He had an
    indescribable love for life.
    FF Paul P., 34

    Ladder 10 – 9/11 Fallen Firefighters
    FF Sean T., 26

    ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_workers_killed_in_the_September_11_attacks )

    UK mom mentioned that her son repeatedly spoke of a "Lou" (short for "Louis") or "Lieu" (short for "Lieutenant") and also mentioned one or more surnames, one of which she could match (or partially match) to a name from the full list of fallen 9/11 firefighters. We figured out that the Lou or Lieu could not be connected to any of the deceased firefighters surnames, since a) if Lou referred to "Louis", ie,, to one of the two fallen 9/11 firefighters named Louis, UK mom would have let us know, and b) "Lieu", short for Lieutenant, is never used with a surname, so "Lieu Surname" is not possible. So, we calculated, Lou must either be the name of a FF who survived 9/11 or deferring to the other possibility, Lou must really be understood as "Lieu", the shorthand way FFs use to address their company Lieutenant (as in "Hey Lieu!, Lieu!, Do we have a ticket (=assignment), Lieu?, etc.). If Lou is short for Louis, we figured, there might have been a FF first name Louis (or Luis) who survived 9/11 and was working at the Engine 24 - Ladder 5 firehouse, or the Engine 10 - Ladder 10 firehouse ("Tenhouse") in 2001. If not, then we have to take Lou to mean Lieu (short for Lieutenant), which would help reduce the number of candidates since only a FF would use the informal address "Lieu" when speaking to a lieutenant in his firehouse. A lieutenant (or captain, or chief) would not use this informal address for a fellow lieutenant (or fire officer).

    The only specific piece of information UK mom gave us -- and you need a specific piece of information or specific pieces of information in order to narrow the list of candidates down to one or two -- is her son's mention of putting "dogs in the back of the truck", implying that her son's PP had dogs (plural) and that he owned a pickup truck. And that he possibly enjoyed the outdoors (presumably with his dogs).

    Could he have meant putting dogs into the back of a fire truck? Ummmm, not really. Firehouses have been known to keep a rescued dog as a firehouse pet on occasion, but not "dogs" plural. And yes, firefighters do rescue pets now and then, but I would still default to the dogs being his dogs and the truck being his pickup truck, which many, many adult American males own (both dogs and pickup trucks). Dan Potter owned a pickup truck on 9/11, and at least one other Ladder 5 FF -- a FF who survived 9/11 -- owned a pickup truck on 9/11, from what I have read.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2021 at 12:30 PM

Share This Page