Covid19 Thread 1 (The Elephant in the Room)

Discussion in 'Members Lounge' started by SeaAndSky, Mar 12, 2020.

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  1. There and back again

    There and back again Senior Member

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    More and more is coming to light that the virus is man made rather than being a natural occurrence.

     
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  2. John Tat

    John Tat Senior Registered

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    Good news for the US is there factories in China along with all other factories in China are back open and producing .. This is good news for the US .. China's biggest problem with all factories right now are the lines of supply so there manufacturing can get back to full steam.. the problem is the lines of supply from around the world may take sometime to get back to normal
    Month on month China had a rise of 32.1% in production in March and now the experts are predicting a production growth rate in 2020 of 5.8% year on year..
    The Purchasing Manger Index in China for March was 52.0.. Anything over 50 is expansion... In February it was 35.7.. Just taking the US,., when its factories are back at full production in China which is no far away and generating income for US based corporations then that is good news for the US however you look at it ..There is going to be pent up demand and China's factories should be ready for it .. The rest of the world I'm not sure about.. If they are not as prepared as China then that will be a shame as China would take bigger control
    A ever on going problem for the US is .. any punishment's the US looks to to inflict on China it is also looking to inflict the same punishment's on some of the biggest US corporations
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2020
  3. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi John,

    The wealthier urban classes are enjoying a bonanza in China as compared to the old days. Those outside of the cities are still mired in poverty, but they're not the ones you see travelling. The city dwellers, as the beneficiaries of CCP largesse, are relatively content with the system--so long as it does what it has been doing for the last 20 years or so. It's hard to know about country folks--I'll defer to someone else on that. However, my concerns with the CCP (not the Chinese in general) is that it aims for regional domination and world domination. That is built into the DNA of Communist ideology just like it is built into the DNA of the terrorist ideology troubling the world at the moment. Plus, China's historic position (in its own eyes at least) as the center of the world makes it discontent with anything else. I have nothing against Chinese people, I've been around them my whole life in one way or another. I'm just concerned about China itself under CCP domination. OTOH, I have to wonder why defending the motives and actions of the CCP has become so important for you?

    Cordially,
    S&S

    PS--In terms of U.S. Corporations, a large part of the U.S. wants them to get most of their respective operations back into the U.S. and to diversify the locations of the rest.
     
  4. John Tat

    John Tat Senior Registered

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    Hi S&S I will put a post together on your last post questions What may be good for you to read is an article by Forbes Google ....Why American Companies Choose China Over Everyone Else Some of the reasons you will not like but it will give you a better understanding of why US corporations are in China and why it's only a pipe dream they will ever leave China All The Best
     
  5. Cyrus

    Cyrus Senior Registered

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    I once talked with a Russian immigrant - somewhere in the late 1980-s - who told me he had met real communists for the first time in his life, here in Barcelona.

    Russia and China have developed immunity towards communist ideology long ago. Pragmatism is their nowadays ideology. Especially in China that exists several thousands years. There were more dynasties in China than kings in Spain or England. The wisdom accumulated...
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2020
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  6. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi Cyrus,

    Agreed in regard to pragmatism vs. communism. However, socialism/communism still serves as "the opiate of the masses" in some parts of Asia. North Korea is a good example of a country ruled by a "Royal Family" in everything but name, but the promoted religion is self-sufficient socialism with a particular family as its prophet-kings. China has its own version, which seems to be heading towards something closer to Imperial Rome. Xi seems to be aggregating all of the power in his own hands step-by-step while keeping the masses in the cities happy (the old bread and circuses that Rome made famous). So, I think we can expect a succession of strong rulers not necessarily related by blood to have almost total control there (with lip service still being given to "Communism" etc.).

    Cordially,
    S&S
     
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  7. Cyrus

    Cyrus Senior Registered

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    Yes, sure.

    But I have a feeling that you see it as if there were some contradiction there.

    If you do, it's only because you look at it from within a very limited European historical experience. Chinese have no such problem - all goes in the millennial imperial tradition (very totalitarian, yes, but what of it?), so, Chairman Xi, or Emperor Xi - what does it matter, they see no difference?

    Or maybe, "Chairman" would be even preferable, than "Emperor", became the concept of the Emperor power was very discredited in the end of the XIXth century, when China became a kind of a "failed state", which was followed by a long series of catastrophes that brought the Chinese people innumerable sufferings.

    You're very right in comparing China with Rome, where there neither was any requirement for any blood relation between coming and going emperors,

    IMHO, of course.
     
  8. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi Cyrus,

    I think you have stated it very well. You may want to check in on the thread linked below, originally started by BenjaminFR. He has lived in China for quite a while and just checked back in recently with some valuable things to say, including confirmation of how "close to the edge" things are in China:

    http://reincarnationforum.com/threa...n-ss-officer-my-story.8164/page-6#post-125836

    Cordially,
    S&S
     
  9. John Tat

    John Tat Senior Registered

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    Hi S&S you asked why I have a favorable opinion of China... I'm 75 year old and have seen plenty of developments in Australia during those years I have seen many things come and go The most significant thing to have happened to Australia that has had the most effect on Australians in my lifetime has been the emergence of China.. We have many things China needs and want as it emerges into a major player in the world This is of tremendous benefit to Australia .... I have seen our standards of living rise to levels I could have never imagined as a young man mostly on the back of China's emergence onto the world stage For example we export 89.2 billion dollars to China compared to the US 10 billion which only represents 3.1% of out total exports.. Australia is one of only eleven counties who have a tripe A rating
    We have done this through the strength of our economy gained by our connections to China....I could go on and on but that's enough
    It makes me wonder about the perceptions of many thing about China .. for example there ever increasing military abilities... The world especially America forgets that the bigger you become economically the bigger military you must have to protect your economy and lands Not so much to use the military but as a deterrent to anyone who is looking to take from you Up until now America has been the only country who is self sufficient to look after themselves.. Now China is that gives Americans great pause I will continue with another post

    All The Best
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2020
  10. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi John,

    I don't know how to weigh the matter of national finances vs. national security (and personal security) for Australia, and I don't think we're doing a good job with this on my side of the Pacific. However, I will tell you a tale told to me by my mother. She lived through both the Great Depression and WWII. She used to tell me how the ships went out to Japan full of scrap metal before WWII. I grew up in a port town. Japan was hungry for metal and people here were hungry to sell it to them. We weren't living up in the areas where Iron ore came from, but there was always a regional supply of scrap metal and we had a good seaport. There were people desperate for money in those days, and I often heard of the struggle against poverty she had growing up. But she would always tell me that there were other people who were saying that we shouldn't be doing that because what went out as scrap was going to come back as bullets and bombs. She let me know in no uncertain terms that they were the ones who were right. Of course, she had the benefit of hindsight.

    However, you should also know this. The U.S. as a whole was very much against getting involved in WWII after the blood bath of WWI and the various treaties (plus the League of Nations) that accomplished nothing. There was a very large part of the U.S. population that wanted us to just stay out of what was going on with Germany and Japan. But in the long run, we couldn't be left out of the calculations of the enemy, who thought it wisest to strike first. Pearl Harbor was bombed by the Japanese, the U.S. was pulled into the war, and young "John Tat" in those days died miserably in an airplane as a result and ended up in this lifetime in Australia. I'm convinced at this point that the idea of enriching China in the hopes that a country run by communists would suddenly morph into a democracy with respect for human rights was pure stupidity and has not worked. What worked with the Soviet Union should have been continued with the CCP. All we have done is create an emboldened communist dictatorship. If you think that Australia will be left out of the CCP's militarist plans for expansion all I can say is "good luck with that". You are too dangerous to them in your locale and for strategic purposes steps will have to be taken to make sure Australia stays "neutral" and quite possibly to control it as a source of needed raw materials.

    You need to read what BenjaminFR has said on the page I linked above. Things with China are not headed in a good direction. It is said that people that won't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. I think we are making many of the same mistakes we made with Germany/Japan prior to WWII, and Australia is a lot closer to the problem than the U.S. Australia is also a vital and valuable source of needed resources. Think about it. Do you think they would just leave you out of their calculations and plans?

    Cordially,
    S&S
     
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  11. John Tat

    John Tat Senior Registered

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    Hi S&S Everything you said was very true.. It's interesting what you mother told you about selling scalp iron to Japan.. Both my parents and grand parents told me about what they called our prime minister at the same period of time... Australians called him pig iron Bob because prior to the war Australia also sold big amount of scrap metal to Japan.. as you say all good things to look back at and compare
    Australia is in a fairly unique situation in a military sense.. I think we are the only major country that cannot be invaded over our borders.. We are surrounded by sea.. To take control of any country an enemy must invade and occupy a country... that can never happen to Australia At present our government is replacing our existing submarine fleet with the French Barracuda class attack submarine
    We would have at least a weeks warning an invasion fleet was on its way to Australia.. They would not make it to Australian waters they would be attacked by our submarines.. I'm not sure any country would take such a risk

    All The Best
     
  12. Cyrus

    Cyrus Senior Registered

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    "...ships went out to Japan full of scrap metal... "

    It was not someone's incomprehension nor stupidity.

    Britain and USA were helping Japan against Russia, to prevent it from gaining access to the seas not freezing in winter in the Far East.
    After that came Pearl Harbour and The Bridge on the River Kwai.

    Some decades earlier, the British likewise helped Germany to raise its industry to prevent France from dominating the Continental Europe - after that came Verdun and Dunkerque.

    "Nothing new under the sun".
     
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  13. tanker

    tanker Senior Registered

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    Getting back to the topic, here in Britain we seem to be well behind in all the mixed messages we're getting from the authorities on the subject of Coronavirus lockdown. Our death toll is the highest in Europe, and second highest in the world, but already people are getting impatient with being 'at home' and a lot of people seem to think it's ok to get back to socialising very soon. What they don't consider, when they're so anxious to get their social lives back, is that for some of us there's no choice but to remain in lockdown for months yet, until a vaccine might be found, simply to save our life. I've also noticed that among the many considerate people outside in the street who make the appropriate space as they walk, there are still groups of cyclists who won't use the roads and instead take over our pavements to use as cycle tracks. If they're behind you you can't hear them coming, so have no chance to get away, and they speed past just inches away. I can no longer walk down the road where I live as it's too risky for my health. In view of this, socialising is the least of my worries! The only place I feel safe is locked down in my house.
     
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  14. Ceridwen

    Ceridwen Senior Registered

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    Certainly mixed messages here in Britain and also the fact that the Government and "other bodies" (eg Welsh Assembly) are sometimes saying different things and/or at different times - and I find that very confusing personally and just go by what the Government says. To me - I'm getting more and more upset at being expected to lead such a restricted life and have given up placing any restrictions whatsoever on myself and am trying to live the "most normal life I can". That's not very normal - with all the shopping problems and with none of my social life operating at the moment - but I'm going "as near to normal" as I can possibly manage, given current lack of facilities. I just don't think I believe what we're being told by the Government et al and I'm not prepared to "live in fear". Add that Lockdown has gone on too long imo and the best prognosis I can see is not being able to have Lockdown totally lifted until October and, in my mind, it still wouldnt be "over" then (as it looks like "social distancing" would still apply for a while). So, since I've not been given "Normal Life" back yet and my most optimistic analysis is we won't have "Normal Life" again until next year (or maybe even later than that - eek!) then I've "had it" with Lockdown.

    I know I'm telling myself that I must have had it even worse than this various previous lives - and, at least in this life, I own my own home, live in attractive area, etc. But I'm still not prepared to put up with Lockdown any longer personally.

    I'm certainly wondering too whether it's a "Plandemic" - rather than a "pandemic" and there is quite a lot that looks rather suspicious about all this thing.
     
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  15. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi John,

    Subs cannot stop ICBMs. Do you think Australia--on its own--would be able to halt a takeover or domination by the CCP? It wouldn't be necessary for the CCP to actually drop any nukes. As one analyst notes, nuclear blackmail by itself would be extremely effective. Absent nuclear armed allies, the only way to avoid domination by a determined and undeterred CCP would be to develop an effective (if only minimal) Australian nuclear deterrent, something Oz has been unwilling to do to this point. Here is a good article from the Australian point of view:

    https://www.realcleardefense.com/ar...ns_and_americas_umbrella_business_114566.html

    Cordially,
    S&S

    PS--History never repeats itself 100%. Nuclear weaponry is the biggest change since WWII. However, the old adage still holds true: generals are always planning how to win the last war. This strategy works well for Australia using conventional arms as long as Nukes are off the table or otherwise deterred. However, absent deterrence by Oz or someone else on its behalf . . . .
    PPS--I think I previously observed that I had found Aussies to be some of the most independent minded folks I had ever known. If the U.S. is, as often predicted, going to be fading from the scene with the rising of China, some of the money being made off of Chinese trade might need to be plowed into the type of deterrence mentioned above. Just sayin' :cool: Otherwise you may find that my mother's "old saying" still has a lot of bite.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2020
  16. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi Ceridwen,

    There is going to be a new "normal". This pandemic is like 9/11 and terrorism. It is something new that the world will have to learn to cope with for the future. Old "normal" is no more. However, I'm hoping that new "normal" will not be too much worse. I'm expecting designer face masks (with masks being normative in offices, stores, public places, etc.). So, I'm assuming that the fair sex may well have as many different reusable masks as they find necessary to accessorize and that the less fair sex will get along with whatever they need in order to get by. On other restrictions, who knows. First we gotta get back to work so the world doesn't collapse. Then we'll have to determine how to recreate again. Masks for sure in movie theaters, and lots of hand cleaner all the time. Don't even think of going anywhere if you have a cough or cold symptoms. You'll be hounded out of the door. This will probably make the great out of doors a good deal more popular, as people will want to go places where they can space out and take off their masks. Anyhow, just guessin', but somehow we'll get by! So, cheer up. :) After awhile it will only be the old fogies who remember anything different.

    Cordially,
    S&S

    PS--Hard on the young people of a certain age. It becomes very difficult to "steal" a kiss (or to subtly elicit a kiss) when your intentions are telegraphed by removing your own mask as well as the mask on your significant other. ;)
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2020
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  17. Cyrus

    Cyrus Senior Registered

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    A cyclist tries to avoid being fined by a policeman:

     
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  18. Ceridwen

    Ceridwen Senior Registered

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    Shame I can't speak Italian in this lifetime - one of those frustrating things that I feel I must have been Italian in at least one past life - as it's sort of "hovering on the edge of my mind" that one step to go and I'd understand the video iyswim.

    SeaandSky - I couldnt handle what you posit as the "new normal". I'm wondering how the heck I can "hang on in there" till October (ie when it looks like - all being well - there will be an element of "Normal" again) and couldnt last out much longer than that before I was able to resume normal life as I know it. A few signs of hope today - a relentlessly "positive"/"I'm all right Jill" person got "told off" by several people on a major forum today that "She might be alright Jill - but lots of others are suffering from Lockdown" - long past time for people to call her on it - as she blindly/selfishly kept at it and no-one was putting her right.

    Other signs - had just bought myself a "Tell the Authorities where to go" type teeshirt and thought "I'll be the only one wearing such" and someone else was out in a different one today - me I've now ordered an "Under his eye (picture of a handmaid - from The Handmaids Tale)" teeshirt to wear whilst out for my walk and hope it will show up some more positive comments from people against Lockdown.

    Some quite intelligent/well-informed type people are now coming on board against it.

    I've seen newspaper articles about several well-known people in recent days to the effect of "You know that person (scientist/Government minister/etc) that's been telling us all what to do - well they've just been shown up as a hypocrite - as they haven't been abiding by it themselves". So - I think some of us have started to take opportunities to show up hypocrisy by the "Do as I say - not as I do" brigade in charge.

    Fingers crossed the "tide is turning" and people won't put up with all these restrictions much longer and the Authorities will just have to go whistle wanting to impose them on us. I'm cautiously optimistic that some people are starting to "wake up".
     
  19. tanker

    tanker Senior Registered

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  20. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi All,

    Who has gone missing? I suddenly noticed that Jaimie, who has been one of our most constant and reliable posters since joining the board, has not made an appearance since April 10th. So, almost nothing through most of the pandemic. This gives rise to some concern. Of course, children have been sent home from school and many people are home from work, so she may just be tied up. However, it does make me curious and curious as well about who else has gone missing since the pandemic raised its ugly head? If we make a list, we may be able to convince management to send out some emails expressing concern and make sure some folks are OK as well as reassuring them that we miss their presence. So, please let us know if you have noticed any other possible Covid related absences.

    Cordially,
    S&S
     
  21. cloud potato

    cloud potato Senior Registered

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    Have wondered about Jaimie myself. Hope all is well. _^_
     
  22. Cyrus

    Cyrus Senior Registered

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    In many forums this is done automatically.
    Detect programmatically how long has everybody not visited the forum, and if somebody excceeds a previously established and configured limit - voilà.
     
  23. Eva1942

    Eva1942 A Walking Enigma...

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    I’m still here... I just don’t post as much as I usually do because I’ve been busy with ‘present life’ things. But I’m still here, so to anyone who reads this, I haven’t forgotten about your PM’s! :)

    I have my doubts as the easing of restrictions here in Australia given that during the restrictions people still felt the need to argue with me because they couldn’t buy that extra tin of tomatoes, or that extra packet of toilet paper.. (like seriously, Corona doesn’t give you the s**ts! :confused:) Hang, they can’t even abide by social distancing rules so coming into winter it’s going to be a **** storm, because you’re not going to know whether your a no symptom shower of Covid-19 (I’ve had my suspicions about myself for a few weeks but turned out to be nothing....), a cold or a flu... :confused:

    While I’m desperate for my replanned holidays, what I’m not desperate for is countries making hasty decisions because everyone is getting cabin fever...

    Eva x
     
  24. Speedwell

    Speedwell Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Well, a robotic algorithm dispatching electronic signals is not quite the same thing as a fellow human being expressing a compassionate concern for the well-being of another.
     
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  25. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi Cloud,

    In a general sense I agree completely. Take sensible precautions, but get back to work. Of course, there are those who are not really interested in work but in party, party, party (or the like). I don't know how to stop idiots from not taking precautions, but after a while (and I think the time is now) the cure is worse than the disease. The economic fall-out is already tremendous, I don't think we can stand much more.

    There have been pandemics before. Ultimately we will just have to learn how to cope with it like we've learned to cope with terrorism. One takes precautions to minimize the opportunity for evil, but if you cower in fear terrorist are actually accomplishing what they want to accomplish. That can't be allowed. We also can't allow this disease to stop us = take necessary precautions and "soldier on".

    Cordially,
    S&S

    PS--I know this doesn't apply to some of us who have special reasons to avoid the "fray" and I feel for them. They need to be supported and encouraged, but there won't be any infrastructure to support them or anyone else if we don't get moving again.

    PPS--I'm also at an age to be more concerned about Covid. However, I'm also at an age to worry about leaving something worthwhile to my children and grandchildren. Consequently, I'm willing to take the risk. Others will have to make their own decisions.
     
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