Is consciousness produced by the brain?

Discussion in 'SCIENTIFIC and ANECDOTAL research' started by Nightrain, Dec 19, 2011.

  1. Nightrain

    Nightrain Senior Registered

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    Along the road to Reincarnation, it is first essential to establish whether consciousness is produced by the brain, or whether consciousness can exist outside the brain.

    Dr. Bruce Greyson, Professor, Department of Psychiatry & Neurobehavioral Sciences, University of Virginia has this to say:

    What evidence are you aware of that supports consciousness beyond the brain? What does the brain produce?
     
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  2. usetawuz

    usetawuz Senior Registered

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    I've got nothing concrete, but it has always seemed to me that the brain is like the hard drive and the soul/ego/consciousness is like the software...while free will provides the input of data. Simplistic, but it works for me.
     
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  3. Deborah

    Deborah Executive Director Staff Member

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    I think the work of Karl Pribram and Denis Gabor regarding holographic memories gives us reason to pause and reflect. I think that reincarnation is not a system - but a process that is illuminated and created by consciousness, thereby making each person's experience unique.


    The books The Holographic Universe, or The Isaiah Effect, or The Biology of Belief, and or Gregg Braden's newest The Spontaneous Healing of Belief (Shattering the Paradigm of False Limits) - all help to better understand what I mean.


    The work of Bruce Lipton P.h.D. and the work of William James, a psychologist who has studied the subconscious and conscious mind reveal more and more about the nature of consciousness and how we create our realities. We are just beginning to learn - what IS possible.


    I personally cannot think of a more perfect system than reincarnation. )*(
     
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  4. Sunniva

    Sunniva Administrator Emeritus

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    Thank you for this, Deborah. That really makes sense to me.
     
  5. Kristopher

    Kristopher Senior Registered

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    I don't think there is any solid evidence. In fact, anything at all about how the human brain works in basically all theories. Its hard to come to conclusions when your exploring the power and capabilities of the most advanced computer known to man. Skeptics, along with ourselves, want proof of life after death and I don't think, while we are alive on this planet, we will ever get that answer.


    If we can't understand the brain for its most common functions then I don't think we have the right to use it to try and prove/disprove where consciousness comes from. Whatever source created us is obviously going to be much more intelligent than any human being could be, therefore making the questions we have basically impossible to answer. If consciousness has been created by pure chance and not by a creator, then I think that is even more incredible.
     
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  6. AKP

    AKP New Member

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    I think, only when we can make our soul leave the body and re-enter at will, we will be able to say for sure that consciousness and thoughts exist outside brain. :)


    AKP.
     
  7. Jody

    Jody Senior Registered

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    Some yogis and psychics claim they *can* have their astral body leave the physical body at will, AKA "out of body experiences" (OBE's). My own personal opinion is that the brain is more like a "dumb terminal" (where the main hard drive is actually located outside the terminal, like a file server ... that would be called the "Akashic records" in New Age Speak. The main metaphor I use for myself is that the brain is more like a "tuner" that grounds the thinker into this plain of reality (like a TV set wired to receive and interpret only a limited set of frequencies). There's a lot of "evidence" that this is so, from anecdotal accounts of OBE's, Near Death Experiences (NDE's), stories of reincarnation that cross cultural barriers of space and time. But personally, I think our earthly plane of existence is part of a test and there's a reason we haven't been able to "conclusively and scientifically" prove that consciousness is independent of our physical body, because that would ruin the test. But I also think we are getting close to a time of Relevation. That's my personal take ... :angel:
     
  8. watchurself

    watchurself New Member

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    consciousness = Spiritual IMO


    IMHO - i think the brain receives consciousness into the physical body


    i believe consciousness is not identifiable, definable, etc etc


    i believe consciousness is the life force - the mystery, our G-D connection


    just my 2 cents -no proof - just a theory


    thanks
     
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  9. dking777

    dking777 Senior Registered

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    I found this procedure remarkable and along the lines of what function the brain serves.

    DK
     
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  10. sensory

    sensory New Member

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    sensory


    Just like the dying brain surgeon said right before he died, 'i was just a radio repairman"
     
  11. fiziwig

    fiziwig moderator emeritus

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    Quantum Physicist Amit Goswami


    (I just posted a link to his documentary in a separate post) believes, based on evidence from physics, that consciousness came first, and that consciousness creates matter, not the other way around.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amit_Goswami
     
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  12. Deborah

    Deborah Executive Director Staff Member

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    I just saw a documentary on 20/20, or maybe Dateline about a 27 year old man who had 7 massive strokes leaving him in a coma. He was in a coma for months. His fiance was told he would never recover.


    I don't remember the details but she did research and gave him Ambien - YES the sleeping pill. He comes out of his coma for 3 - 4 hours..telling her and the doctors he can hear them..he is in there and no he is not brain dead. He responds to questions can do math - etc. After a few hours the Ambien wears off and he is back into a coma.


    So -consciousness in the brain? It's an odd example but I thought I would share. It's evident from his experience that still continues to this day - he is not in his brain.
     
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  13. Nightrain

    Nightrain Senior Registered

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    Here is a story about Sam Goddard, 23, of Brisbane, Australia, who suffered a series of storkes after palying football in February of 2010. His fiance gave him Ambien which brought him out of his stroke. I don't know if it is the same story, but there are actually several cases in which Ambien brought people out of coma for a period of time until the drug wore off.


    There are so many cases of people coming out of comas and remembering exact conversations which doctors continue to shrug off as mere anomalies of the brain. It boggles one's mind to realize how deeply ingrained is the false belief that consciousness is an epiphenomenon of the brain, when there is so much evidence and even logic to explain otherwise.


    Sensory's reference to the neurosurgeon who realized he was just a radio repairman could have been about Dr. Eben Alexander, a neurosurgeon who had a near death experience and realized that his consciousness was not a product of his brain, and that his brain mainly functioned as a kind of radio receiver.
     
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  14. Nightrain

    Nightrain Senior Registered

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    Three year old Chase Britton of Buffalo, New York was born without a Cerebellum and even his pons, the part of the brain stem that controls basic functions, such as sleeping and breathing. Yet, Chase is able to walk up and down the hall, ride a bike, hold a pencil or a pen to work on projects, and use scissors. Chase also loves to play on his Ipad. According to Doctors these are all things that he's not supposed to be able to do. Although some neurologists are willing to explain away such anomalies as "plasticity", that is just another way of saying that they aren't as absolutely sure about the functions of the brain as they once thought.


    Of course, this and other similar cases don't prove that consciousness can exist outside the physical brain, but it helps to question the rigid and unrelenting assertion by neurologists that consciousness is merely an epiphenomenon of the brain.
     
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  15. Green26

    Green26 Senior Registered

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  16. pixarfan

    pixarfan Member

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    I was getting into a debate with a few atheists about this. (I used to be one briefly, but can't call myself one any more knowing what I know now about NDEs, OBEs, and verified reincarnation cases). I thought that if I ever had an NDE, I'd attempt to prove it. I believe consciousness can exist outside of the brain and can, in fact, be tested (and so I can't call myself an agnostic anymore, either).


    I was trying to think of an appropriate metaphor.


    I think of individual "consciousness" (you can call it a "soul," and I would normally, but "soul" tends to be a loaded word) as a scoop of pure water (we're all scooped from the same lake ;) ) poured into the "ice cube tray" of the brain, where it's "frozen" and isolated from the rest of the water from whence it came. Everyone is their own "ice cube," now separate from everyone else, or so it would seem. (This kind of goes with what happens in Michael Newton's books as the soul merges with the body).


    This does not discount neurology, biology, or what we've learned of the brain so far, as the "ice cube tray" can still be damaged. But in certain circumstances- NDEs, OBEs, and death- the "ice cube" "melts" out of the "tray" and is "free-flowing water" again. Its "true nature" is revealed. It can be "poured" back into the same body (after NDE) or a different one (reincarnation).
     
  17. JLamar

    JLamar New Member

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    I know of one unambiguous case, that of Pam Reynolds, who while undergoing surgery for an aneurysm a few years back, had to be put in such a deep drug-induced coma that she was effectively brain-dead; it was sort of like shutting down the brain so that they could work on it with the power off.


    The EEG showed no activity whatsoever, but Pam, far from waking up with no memory of the operation, was able to describe the surgeons' tools, the operating theater, and even banter between the surgeons in spite of this.


    This, scientifically, leads to a true unknown. We know that:


    A. Because of what she saw, some mechanism allowed her to view the operating theater.


    B. She could not have done so through the normal channels.


    I've come across a few skeptics who insisted that if she heard anything, the brain had to have been active, but this leads to only two very unlikely possibilities:


    A. The EEG machine, in a world class operating theater, that had functioned just fine before and after Pam was put in a coma, experienced an unknown fault for the exact duration of time she was comatose, or;


    B. There was brain activity, it was of a type unknown and undetectable by today's instruments.


    Either way, Pam's case leads to a scientific quandary, because given the circumstances, the unknown can only be answered with another unknown, whether one takes the skeptic's side or the believer's side.


    My personal opinion? Consciousness is no more produced by the brain than wires produce electricity.
     
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  18. Jody

    Jody Senior Registered

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    re: Chase Britton


    Just a heads up ... Chase, the boy born without a cerebellum, is in the news again. Seems his family got into an accident and could use some financial help this Christmas season.
     
  19. Prince Burridge

    Prince Burridge New Member

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    According to quantum physics, consciousness IS the creator!
     
  20. ChrisR

    ChrisR Administrator Emeritus Staff Member Super Moderator

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    An interesting old thread, do any newer members have any thoughts on this?
     
  21. LarryG

    LarryG New Member

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    Wow I could rant for weeks non-stop on this topic (literally). ;) But I will be kindly brief.


    All biological theories of the brain being the seat of consciousness, thoughts, and memories are fully and unreservedly false in every fashion (I giggle delightfully when expounding on the many many reasons). Physicists and electronic technicians have always known the brain theories to be astronomically absurd, but oh well, the biologists have hoodwinked the public into believing that the biologists are expert physicists without their so much as knowing the difference between a bit and an ohm.


    If for healthy people the "me" and "I" remain the same throughout life, and in dreams, and in alleged OBEs, then how is this possible if consciousness is electrical-based, and if there is no such thing as a stable electrical field anywhere in the universe? Within three-dimensional physics it is not possible to have a stable field of any form at any time ever. The human mind is very susceptible to differences of sleep, nutrition, environmental positivity/negativity, and everything else, but the "me" and "I" remain unchanged, which shows that the normal definition of consciousness cannot be the product of organic matter nor of electrical fields (including the new quantum hypotheses), and the "me" and "I" therefore exist within a form that is outside of three-dimensional physics.


    Some children are born with exemplarily detailed memories of fetal development, including early embryonic growth prior to brain and nervous system development. If a child can describe where the heart and "I" are located at 20 days, as well as describe that the body is formed from the duplications beginning with the first duplication, then consciousness is not brain-based nor organic-based. Children who were aware at conception also observed their human minds forming, and the children can describe with great details the differences between awareness (consciousness) and the human abstract functions. But the children are not permitted to speak of their memories because biology insists that no thought nor consciousness can exist without a fully developed brain.


    Two known individuals with among the world's highest measured intelligence both report parallel pre-birth experiences that describe a non-organic consciousness (the individuals are somewhat known, but not for their intelligence, and they know to not speak about the topic in public). For some individuals this is not a game nor a casual topic to ponder, but rather it is the very foundational knowing of one's own existence.
     
  22. dking777

    dking777 Senior Registered

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    Easier said than done. Been there, done that. The saying goes, that your born alone and die alone. I always contested that saying because when I had my NDE's - I was never alone. You are not able to act 'independently' on your own. As a child, I always had time to prepare myself mentally for the 'next' adventure outside my body - and was constantly trying to 'validate' the experience with others. I always had 'spirit guides' who acted with 'authority.' I came to look at the 'spirit guides like 'attorneys' who had access to some sort of 'contract' signed prior to my 'incarnation.' You have to follow the rules - and the 'fine print' in the contract.


    In 1988, I died in front of 10 eyewitnesses. (8 friends and 2 paramedics.) I was gone for 46 minutes before I coughed back to life again. There was a Doctor involved who witnessed the 'medical image' of the injury. His statement was - I couldn't be alive if it wasn't for a 'divine hand' in repairing the damage done - because it was beyond science to repair. So, 11 people came to believe my testimony of the NDE. They all wanted me to go public and share the story. I told them - it wasn't designed for that yet. I told them there was too many skeptics and 'unbelieving' minds in the world that would seek to destroy the 'truth' without regard to the facts. That is - how is is in the world of man. I was used to this. I told them the only way to 'prove' it to others was to duplicate the 'process' and die on command and cough back to life again. While I was outside of my 'body-brain' - I was able to give them testimony of everything that happened during those 46 minutes - as well as give some of them 'facts' of their own personal histories. Some of them would ask me - 'how' did you know that. I told them, "I talked to your spirit while I was out and about in the invisible world. Your spirit told me." My friends asked why they were 'chosen' to witness such a 'divine occurrence' that offered them validation of spiritual undertow - and not the rest of the world. I told them,


    "You have earned it. Truth is not something you are entitled to by birth-rite. If you had been where I had been and got escorted back by God's attorneys - they would have pointed that out in the fine print of the contract you signed before you were born."


    Sincerely,


    DKing
     
  23. TMarie33

    TMarie33 New Member

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    This anesthesiologist is making some really interesting progress in this area with his theory regarding microtubules being the portal of consciousness INTO the brain!!! Fascinating stuff, makes me feel like we are just babies learning to crawl.....

     
  24. John Tat

    John Tat Senior Registered

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    As I have said before I'm not a scientific person. My opinions are solely based on what has happened to me and my observations.


    Seven years ago I had a massive heart attack. I was rushed to hospital. What happened to me began in the ambulance on the way to hospital. I was drifting in and out of consciousness, yet I was still aware of what was going on in both situations. I knew and fully understood I was dying, which did not phase me at all . I had no feeling of not wanting to die.


    My only thoughts were about myself. My experience showed me that during the dying process your thoughts may only be about yourself. Later on when I thought about that, it made complete sense to me.


    By the time I arrived at the hospital and rushed to intensive care, if you believe in god I was doing far more than knocking on heavens door, I was kicking it down


    Was I 80%, 50% or 30% dead I don't know. But I was well on the way


    Now the interesting things began to happen to me. My senses went to an incredibly high level. I could here the nurses at their station on the outside of the intensive ward talking. I heard the specialist who was attending me on the phone at the station pleading with other doctors to help him. He is dying I heard him say many times to his colleagues and nurses


    I could hear my heart beating Several beats then nothing then 6-8 beats in quick succession, then nothing, nothing, nothing then beat, beat again


    I felt I was in a different place. A place where there was only my consciousness . It was preforming at its full and absolute maximum capacity. I was aware of everything. The physical me had never and did not exist, that I understood with complete clarity.


    I must have been close to death, when I nurse came and held my hand and said I will stay with you


    Then I went to sleep


    The next thing it was three days later and they had saved me. It's funny how you feel and think after such an experience. After waking up I had never felt so bad in all of my life. It felt as though I had been hit by a bus . My first thoughts after waking feeling so bad was "I wish I was dead"


    I only pass my experience on to show what happened to me as my body was going through the dying process


    It was not long after this things changed for me in every way
     
  25. TMarie33

    TMarie33 New Member

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    I am reading a book called Jung the Mystic and it describes Jung breaking his leg and having a mycardial infarction from a clot where he then had an NDE, he also had a hard time coming back in the body afterwards and described being able to perceive time as the past, present and future simultaneously occurring in a hazy dreamlike state in the days after. He describes being sent back, being told that he wasn't finished, and shortly after the incident he began to reveal his more metaphysical research that he had previously kept hidden as to not effect his reputation as a "scientist". It never ceases to amaze me how similar these evens are, and what a deep impact they have on those that have them.
     
  26. dking777

    dking777 Senior Registered

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    From the age of 14 (1974) to the age of 21 (1984) I worked with two University Professors of Psychology. In part, it was from the after effects of my own cardiac condition and the 'trauma' associated with the 'violent' episodes that led to my NDE's. I never spoke of my 'out of body' experiences with the psychologists until after 1978. Of the two, one favored Jungian psychology and the other was more influenced by Freud. My memory has it that they had access to the 'medical files' relating to my physical cardiac condition - and the mystery for everyone was - how was I 'mentally' 'blocking' the physical pain from my mind. According to the medical Doctors - the pain never ceased. It would slightly increase during an eposide that led to 'cardiac arrest' which would increase the pain overall. But - I would 'block' it from my conscious mind. There were many Doctors who felt the pain alone should have 'killed' me. (A medical Doctor in 1988 said the same thing.)


    It was through one psychologist that I was led to read some of the works of Carl Jung. I can remember reading one book by it's cover - because of the symbol on the front. Very symbolic of the 'tunnel' effect of the NDE. Of course, reading the book was a challenge - but at that time - I had access to 'spirit guides.' The understanding I was looking for at the age of 14 and 15 - was the division of the 'conscious' and the 'unconscious' mind. The fact was that the 'unconscious' isn't 'non-consciousness' as much as it being 'unaware.'


    The anima and animus aspect - to me - was the same thing I was trying to express about the 'unconscious' twin-ship. I had spoken to them about this in a 'scientific' way pertaining to psychology prior to 1978. After 1978 - I was able to prove the 'reality' of the 'mystical twin' as being 'real' and valid in an experimental process that freaked both the psychologists out. Prior to 1978, Jung's biography was recommended to me and I recall finding the passage that I could relate to from my own mystical journeys beyond temporal time.

    Sincerely,


    DKing
     
  27. John Tat

    John Tat Senior Registered

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    Wow dking 777. It was later on after my heart attack I understood our consciousness did embrace, yesterday, today and tomorrow. That was the most significant understanding I took from what happened to me. As I have said before I'm not a scientific person or one who has educated myself on these issues. I only know what has happened and continues to happen to me. This experience I believe gave me a greater understanding to what is really going on. In my option my experience proves beyond any doubt our consciousness does have memory. I believe there is another me a pure me that reincarnates over and over again. I have no need to search in the physical of who I may have been before. As I said when I was only my consciousness I understood with complete clarity I never have, did or will exist in physical form


    The most interesting question I still cannot answer is. Is my consciousness my pure self or is my pure self far more that my consciousness? I will not know that until I understand what consciousness is


    Our souls have no memory. It is the life force, the energy that makes all thing possible. Our pure self reincarnates along with our soul. All previous life memories comes from our consciousness which I have proven to myself does have memories of the past the present
     
  28. cloud potato

    cloud potato Senior Registered

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    collective consciousness ?


    hello.


    not sure if this has been shared already or not...


    what about the bee's


    or a community of ant's ?


    these individuals represent, to some degree, a smaller scale of a particular consciousness existing outside of them ?


    are the inner and the outer world one in the same ? connected as an expression of each other... the life force within them compels them to live in the way they do and from an objective perspective these creatures are preserving something greater, acting as one.


    we may not even be aware of our role as a species but we live it out as a collective much like the ant or the bee.


    just stumbled across this and thought it a nice read ^-^


    http://awakeningtoheal.com/2012/02/13/letting/
     
  29. KenJ

    KenJ Moderator Emeritus

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    Other aspects


    I'm just finishing "The Big Book of Reincarnation" where one section talked about consciousness in another way than I had thought about.


    It gives examples of transplant recipients acquiring more from the donor than the organ that was implanted. This included "lifestyles" to "favorite sayings".


    Another example was a type of worm that is capable of regeneration of body parts that is also capable of being trained to perform simple tasks. Train the worm on a task, cut it up, and each new worm knows the task! Now, where were the memories stored?
     
  30. dking777

    dking777 Senior Registered

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    Most of my experiences happened in childhood and I don't think I ever paid much attention to the word 'consciousness.' It is only in the last several decades that focus has been placed upon that 'word' to describe or define an 'awareness' outside the physical form. I used the 'word' intelligence' when describing the 'state of mind' outside the body - as opposed to 'inside the body.' Unconscious to me - wasn't a non-existence as much as it was a hidden 'awareness' beyond the physical. I got used to people trying to 'claim' that I wasn't supposed to 'see, hear, talk, or think' outside a physical body while my physical body was supposedly 'unconscious.' (I died in front of two physicians at the age of 6 and they had a hard time dealing with my testimony of being in some sort of 'state of awareness' outside the physical body while it was 'unconscious.')

    For me, a big part of the problem is defining various words used for ''things" that are normally hidden from physical view. Soul is a perfect example. You say 'soul' and you have it defined in your mind as something. 100 people hear you say soul and your probably going to invoke 100 different definitions. What you call the 'pure self' is probably what I would refer to the 'soul.' From my mystical experiences, I have come to the opinion that the 'pure soul' or 'divine light' of creation - does not incarnate into the flesh.


    I had so many experiences as a child and one of the things I spoke about often about the other side - I have found a few other 'NDE'er's' who give testimony of it. Some call it a 'soul merge' on the other side. When I was 'there' and stood next to another 'light or divine one' - all I had to do to get a complete history of their life here in the world - was to merge into their 'mind' and I would experience their 'lives' as if it was first hand. I stopped talking about this after awhile because my parents and family felt I was 'stealing' or 'tapping' into the memories of 'others' and calling them my own when it came to my own past life recall. When your out of body and in the light - your mind of intelligence knows what it is and it don't get the two mixed up.


    But as far as the ordinary or average person - on a conscious human level - they are (for the most part) totally 'unconscious' or not 'conscious' of any sort of past life. I rebelled against the whole 'past life' thing when I was 15. I (as a human) didn't live before. My 'spirit' had been encased in previous incarnation. I didn't feel those memories belonged to me as a human. I felt my 'focus' and primary objective was to deal with the life here and now - between the moment of 'birth' and 'death.' On the other side, it wouldn't be looked up on as a separation but as a whole. On the other side - I could see, feel and hear - past lives, my present life and future lives as one whole 'life' without beginning and no end. It was one continuous whole with no separation between them. I am not currently 'conscious' of that as a reality, but when I pass away - my 'mind' will flip and the 'unconscious' will become 'conscious' again and I will see life not from a human and limited 'ego' (outside world) point of view - but - from the point of view of my soul again. How do we define that 'ecstasy of a non-temporal state' with mere mortal and temporal words when a word can mean 100 different things to a 100 different people?


    Sincerely,


    DKing
     
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