Is scientific proof of Reincarnation important?

Discussion in 'SCIENTIFIC and ANECDOTAL research' started by Nightrain, Aug 16, 2011.

  1. Nightrain

    Nightrain Senior Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2009
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    31
    Location:
    Connecticut, USA
    For those who have had their own personal proof of Reincarnation, other forms of proof may not be important or necessary.

    But, until recently, Science and Religion have held Western Civilization hostage to dogmatic rules that prevented and even persecuted anyone who reported their own experience involving Reincarnation or anything else that seemed other-worldly by their standards.

    Does this mean, then, that it is now more important than ever to seek validation and proof of Reincarnation and the Afterlife? If so, why?
     
  2. Shiftkitty

    Shiftkitty Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2011
    Messages:
    73
    Likes Received:
    9
    I don't think scientific proof of it is important. It will always be a matter of faith. Even if the most respected scientist in existence disproved it, there would still be folks pointing out flaws in the research, etc.


    Should it be studied scientifically? Questions about the existence of the soul and what happens to it after we die have been around for so long that science would be doing itself a great disservice to not try to find the answers. I just don't see the need to drop gobs of funding on the subject.
     
  3. alienstyle

    alienstyle New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2011
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    INDIA
    Yes, the empiric (i.e. officially scientific) proof IS needed. At least as a TARGET!


    The interesting thing is that the more we even approach such a target, the critics will statistically start losing confidence increasingly. Even if they don't admit it in the Internet or in the Public or etc.


    And all the else approaches to experience past life or conclude reincarnation are what is known as the Conceptual Research. The kind of research usually carried out by the Philosophers etc. Such research involves methods like MEDITATION, INTUITION (may be with eyes open), SELF-MADE ARGUMENTS, DEBATES, etc.


    In India, the Conceptual Research is highly respected. Especially with the methods: Meditation (with eyes closed) & Intuition.


    But the problem is that - just like False Memory Syndrome, some impurities can enter thus making not all the conclusions authentic. It depends upon, maybe, many things like: cultural conditioning & level of meditation etc.


    But WHO will filter these impurities?


    ANSWER = SCIENCE.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 16, 2011
  4. usetawuz

    usetawuz Senior Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2010
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    19
    I think to obtain a level of objective proof for a subjective topic (reincarnation) is a remarkably difficult task. I am not certain such a definitive level of certainty can be obtained. Despite the difficulty, there are organizations which operate on older, but equally subjective beliefs, that strenuously defend their beliefs and dogma with any and all means available.


    For that reason alone I think any research being done to investigate reincarnation and any other afterlife theories and phenomena are valuable to present a viable counter balance to the established doctrine. Also, the sense of relief and wonder that most of us here have noted from the comments made by people who have happened upon this site alone justifies the research and the alternative forum for opposing views, whether or not a definitive answer is ever obtained.
     
  5. alienstyle

    alienstyle New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2011
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    INDIA
    My counter question is that - if there runs no target to even prove it scientifically, can the critics be ever sidelined???


    They would also run their own Conceptual Research (actually) to claim the conclusion that reincarnation doesn't exist.


    They may not even consider it as a subject at all if we always declare it as a subjective thing.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 17, 2011
  6. Kristopher

    Kristopher Senior Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2011
    Messages:
    69
    Likes Received:
    8
    Location:
    UK
    Well, scientific proof would sure help me on my down days. Some days I believe in reincarnation 110% and other days not so much. So, yeah, I need a little thing called "proof". I suppose what Im looking for is not so much scientific proof, but more along the lines of personal proof.


    I don't necessarily think that its highly important that we should have scientific proof of reincarnation. Im sure souls who have completed their incarnations went through many of lives without a belief reincarnation, so does it really matter what people believe in? Maybe we are just looking for scientific proof to be able to say "Im right and you're wrong".


    The question is, why are people so ignorant to the possibility of reincarnation? If we could prove that there is life after death, the next step would be to find out the process. I think that will bring reincarnation into light. In fact, correct me if Im wrong, I have heard that, in the USA, more and more people are starting to believe in reincarnation than ever before.
     
  7. alienstyle

    alienstyle New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2011
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    INDIA
    Hi Kristopher,


    To the above quote of you, I add:-


    The problem is that the Critics are saying to the Believers: "We're right and your wrong". - Which should be stopped or, at least, MINIMIZED.


    And so we should invite the Science.
     
  8. Mama2HRB

    Mama2HRB Senior member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2003
    Messages:
    0
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    Western PA USA
    Proof


    I have found lots of proof of the past life memories my daughter has. Places, dates, the amount of steps to a streetcar. Finding the "Uncle Billy" who lived down the hill and across the way who was a fireman but not really an uncle to be William Jones across the street and down two and was a fireman in the correct year. (Names were changed because I don't remember them now LOL)


    Or, my personal favorite, discovering years later that a certain building has previously unexplained architectural features that make no sense ... unless, of course, the reincarnation memory is correct ... even though history has no mention of this man holding this particular job ....


    Reincarnation research can be fun. Just keep an open mind and be prepared for a few laughs that you didn't expect ... LOL
     
  9. Delonada

    Delonada Senior Registered

    Joined:
    May 1, 2011
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Iceland
    Proof would be nice, but not necessary. It is only the current scientific day that claims that everything must be materialistic and have a "proof" so sometimes we get caught up in it. The reason for this is basically materialistic war on religion, and everything between gets caught in the crossfire more or less.
     
  10. Lawyer Daggett

    Lawyer Daggett New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2010
    Messages:
    0
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree with Nighttrain's first comment. Personal proof may not be necessary to the individual- and probably will not in most cases. I for example personally do not care if others accept my belief although I get annoyed with people who are so ignorant as to joke about it.


    However, scientific acceptance does have some application. Acceptance of it by psychiatrists and psychologists could help the mentally ill whose difficulties may arise from Karma or experiences before birth.
     
  11. Nightrain

    Nightrain Senior Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2009
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    31
    Location:
    Connecticut, USA
    It seems to me, that, IF there is an Afterlife, then a huge number of people have been seriously short-changed by being made to believe otherwise. Of course, that is a very big "IF". However, I admit to being very "unscientific" in believing that there is an afterlife, as do most of the people viewing this Forum. But, I also believe that there is significant—if not overwhelming—evidence from numerous scientific fields that there is something beyond what our common senses tell us. Without going into detail regarding all the evidence that is presently available, let us consider the ramifications of not believing as opposed to believing.


    Let's consider the typical but fictional example of Buddy, who is a 23 year old married mechanic with two young children. He is struggling to make ends meet and has very little time to think about the afterlife. He was raised in a Christian church, but really doesn't put much stock in religion, and wouldn't be caught dead talking about anything metaphysical. He prefers spending his free time watching sports, having a drink with his friends, working on his car or just watching something purely entertaining on television. Like most of his friends and associates, he has done some stupid things in life, and he hasn't always been the nicest person in the world. He probably also carries some guilt with him for having extra-marital fantasies, or for not being as loving a father as he could have been.


    So, here he is, driving to work with a bit of a buzz on after last night's party, when he is suddenly hit by a drunk driver who ran a red light, and he is instantly killed. The trouble is...he is not aware that he is dead. The concept is so foreign to him that he simply continues on his way to work where he is ignored and confused by the strange way that he feels. He sees a light, but ignores it as he tries to deal with his situation, as if he is still physically alive. After all, he feels very much alive, and nothing seems to fit his preconception of death, which would necessarily consist of clouds, pearly gates and all the other cliches of heaven. Any confusion is interpreted as if it's just a typical dream, and he remains earth-bound for an indeterminate period until it eventually dawns on him that he has actually passed on.


    If we extrapolate this hypothetical situation to cover the countless people who have no concept of death, we can only imagine the amount of heart-ache and suffering—especially when we realize that many of these earth-bound souls include children. Certainly, we have many anecdotal near-death accounts of souls being greeted by loved ones, but we also have accounts of people refusing to believe that anyone would care enough to come down to greet them, or even that they are deserving enough to be accepted into their concept of paradise. So, it seems natural that some of them find themselves in a kind of hell of their own conception.


    Of course, all of this is may be my own way of rationalizing something that exists only in imagination. But, there are enough indications that there are too many mysteries, which cannot be solved by classical science. And, to ignore the consistent messages inherent in all the evidence that has been gathered to date, is to unnecessarily condemn countless souls to the kind of confusion and heartache described above. Not only that, but it only serves to hamper the collective progress of souls in general.


    My position is not to convert anyone to a belief in the afterlife, or to propose adherence to blind faith; but rather to suggest the need for more research and to resist dogma of any kind, whether it is religious or based on rigid scientism. For science, itself, can become like a religion, if it doggedly refuses to considerall the possibilities.
     
  12. tiltjlp

    tiltjlp A Recycled Soul

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Cheviot, Ohio
    On a personal level no. But I can see where it might benefit mankind if 1, there was scientific proof, and 2, if the fact of reincarnation were more universal. Since persons not aware of the fact of reincarnation still reincarnate, it would be to their advantage to understand about their past lives. But then again, maybe it's revealed only to those who can handle it emotionally, and use it to grow personally and spiritually.
     
  13. usetawuz

    usetawuz Senior Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2010
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    19
    Nightrain, along those lines is a short book written by Dannion Brinkley called "Secrets of the Light". He was stricken dead by lightning and awoke with a toe tag on, recovered a changed man, then had a massive coronary, again recovered a more changed man, then...well you get the picture. Each time he became more aware of the "other side" and what our purpose here is. At the end he preaches, but his NDE's are remarkable, and without his experiences he would have been the guy who doesn't know he is dead, and who Dannion meets and describes...just as your example illustrates.
     
  14. Jody

    Jody Senior Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2009
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    25
    Location:
    Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA
    Nightrain, I've never understood how someone could not understand that they are dead (...though I'll admit that I watched the movie Sixth Sense and I was taken aback by the ending). I don't interact with a lot of people in my day to day life, but come on, no one's going to ignore you for that long are they? And don't these ghosts find it a bit funny that they can't pick anything up and suddenly have the ability to walk thru doors and stuff ... :confused::freak::laugh:


    Actually, one of my early adolescent past "life" memories included attending my own funeral, and I'm sure I knew I was dead at the time. But it's just like me to want to stick around and find out what people were saying about me, who came to the funeral, and so on.


    Though if it's true that some people can't accept the fact that they're dead, that is pretty tragic. And the people who are left behind are always devastated. If these people only knew that chances are good they'll see their loved ones again, maybe even in their own lifetime ... what a comfort that would be! And if people only understood they have nothing to fear from death, how much more courageous they would be, and less willing to deal with the quiet desperation their fear keeps them in right now. Of course, I believe in reincarnation and I'm not exactly fearless, but I think I'm a little less afraid than most of dying.


    Definitely people would not be as clannish, sexist, and chauvinistic if they understood the truth. Maybe they'd take care of the planet a little better and stop being so selfish.


    But there are those who say that this is part of the test. I think when we all can past the test, maybe this planet can come into its next stage of evolution. But each person has to come to their own realization in their own way, in their own time (though I see this process speeding up exponentially in the near future) ...
     
  15. Nightrain

    Nightrain Senior Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2009
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    31
    Location:
    Connecticut, USA
    I agree with you and find it difficult to understand. However, I have come to understand that the great super-awareness which is often reported by near death experiencers is only a state of mind that happens while the person is "in the light". Otherwise, I am told that those caught on the earth plane, for whatever reason, are in a kind of fog that is similar to what we experience in our dreams, where nothing makes much sense, anyway, and we are often repeating actions that have some kind of emotional connection.


    Vibrational levels seem to be a consistent issue among those who report Near Death, Ghosts, and even After Death Communications, whether reported by loved ones or even Mediums. If all these reports are true, then it is said we resonate at a much lower level than those who are in the light. It could be that spirits caught on the earth plane resonate on our level, but are handicapped by the lack of a physical body and brain. It is often suggested by non-materialist medical doctors and scientists that the brain seems to act as a receiver, which filters out spiritual information that is not necessary for physical survival. It seems rational, if such is the case, for souls to be plunged into a state of confusion when they hold firm to materialist philosophy and are suddenly evicted from their body.


    I would not be one to utterly reject the existence of ghosts, especially in the face of so many sightings, and in view of so much evidence for an afterlife. It does seem horribly unfair that so many people might be overlooked by whoever resides in the light. Or, could it be that some departed souls are so afraid of the light that they hide from it and cannot be found? Who knows for sure?
     
  16. Kristopher

    Kristopher Senior Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2011
    Messages:
    69
    Likes Received:
    8
    Location:
    UK
    I think it could depend on the belief system the person had before they died. If someone thought there was 100% no chance that we still live after physical death then it would be very hard to to accept once the time comes. If we, as ghosts, still see ourselves as we were during our life then we would have no reason to think we're dead. It would be highly confusing.


    We often hear that guides or family members appear to people once they've pased over. If this is the case then why would souls still be 'scared' of going towards the light or couldn't other soul come from the light to try and explain that they're physical dead?. Wouldn't it be best for the lost soul to be 'forced' into the light rather than just being left in limbo?
     
  17. Totoro

    Totoro Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2011
    Messages:
    398
    Likes Received:
    445
    Location:
    Tampa, Fl
    I believe that's true.. you have to able to resonate yourself (to a higher level) to be able to detect things like that.. some people may be naturally attuned to it, hence mediums and psychics.


    I had about a half hour conversation with my father (past life) and I was so drained, I came home and slept for about 12 hours the next day after work.
     
  18. Shiftkitty

    Shiftkitty Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2011
    Messages:
    73
    Likes Received:
    9
    Now here's the question I was about to ask; what benefit to mankind would it be? I don't see people suddenly becoming more spiritually aware. In fact, I see people setting themselves up to make sure that their personal power-bases remain intact for them in the next life. Sure, while they become part of a great cosmic consciousness they may see the folly in placing so much emphasis on such things, but once they reincarnate, they may still be power-hungry beings, trying to game the system of reincarnation for their own foolish ends. It has the potential to become a legal nightmare as well as people try to claim rights that belonged to an old body, or else file criminal lawsuits against people who did them wrong in a past life.


    I know there are cultures where reincarnation is accepted as fact and they don't face this sort of thing, but all it would take would be for one nutbar to set the precedent.


    But my concerns aside, what would the benefit for mankind be?
     
  19. tiltjlp

    tiltjlp A Recycled Soul

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Cheviot, Ohio
    Well, for one thing, I don't believe we have as much say so or control over our future lives as some people do. I feel our upcoming lives are based on what our souls still need to learn. We might have some general input into what our next life might be, but I don't think we get to design it as if ordering an ala carte meal.


    Maybe I'm cynical, and being home-bound I may lead a somewhat sheltered life, but most people I encounter never seem to give a thought to any spiritual matters. By nature we're all somewhat self centered, but I regularly meditate for world peace, and for the welfare of my friends. I'm not so sure unenlightened individuals take time from their everyday concerns to consider their spiritual "health".


    A more spiritually minded society might be less selfish, less bitter and hostile to one another, and a little less self-absorbed. For example, most young people I know and see out and about are extremely rude, and appear to do little else but text message or talk endlessly of their cell phones. They often can be cruel to anyone not in their group. Of course these are my observations, and may not agree with yours.
     
  20. MaritaMari

    MaritaMari Senior Registered

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2011
    Messages:
    0
    Likes Received:
    2
    The scientific proof of reincarnation is extremely important because it will raise reincarnation from the superstition and any other belief system. Reincarnation is not a religion in which you can and cannot believe in, it's rather a reality that every single one of us is submitted to. It is something that deeply affects every single one of us. Imagine that we didn't need the proof to know whether the Earth is round or not. Some of us would believe in that, some of would not. It seems it wouldn't affect our daily lives. So what is the benefit fro the scientific benefit for the shape of the Earth? We realized that other planets did not evolve around Earth but that they are all in mutual correlation with one another. We figured that we have two poles and all the affects of that. We figured that, if the Earth was flat, our very existence would be completely different.


    The same is true for the scientific proof of reincarnation. If we find a scientific proof for it, psychologists and psychiatrists will stop trying to find the sources to your current problem only in your childhood and submit you to so many medications because they don't know what's wrong. Many of you who went to the regression therapies say that it helped you because it touched the real sources of your problems. With the scientific proof, all the people in the world, not just a few lucky ones who happen to believe in reincarnation or whose therapist suggest them the possibility of that, all the people will have the benefit of truly understanding their problems, traumas and their whole personalities, and will be able to better cope with their problems and even gain more self-confidence because they will know WHY they are the way they are now.


    Reincarnation is not the matter of personal belief, it is the matter of reality itself.


    So yes, it is a must.
     
  21. Nightrain

    Nightrain Senior Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2009
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    31
    Location:
    Connecticut, USA
    It is my very humble opinion that genocide is a direct result of our pervasive belief that we are all given but one life to live. In fact, all crimes against humanity, as well as against life in any fashion, results from the belief that we can eliminate whatever stands in the way of our survival in this life. All of us are directly affected in some way by this belief, regardless of what other beliefs we may hold on to. We are both spirit and animal. Our feet are planted in both worlds, and we are driven both by our spiritual sensibilities as well as our animal nature. I sincerely doubt that any of us can totally deny our need to survive on this earthly plane. Nor do I think we should, so long as we are here.


    However, I also believe that our world is presently suffering unnecessarily from this pervasive need to eliminate all possible threats to our perceived happiness. Thus, so many have resorted to murder, rape, genocide, theft, imprisonment for drug offenses or political purposes, the breaking up of families for our personal gain, etc. The list has become all too long and too familiar.


    I do believe that we are in desperate need of some kind of proof, or any believable evidence, that would demonstrate how futile it is to think in such materialistic terms. Proof of Reincarnation, however elusive it is, must be pursued. And if there is at least some strong evidence in other areas, such a through Parapsychology, Quantum Physics, or the study of Morphic Resonance in Biology; then we are at least closing in on the more difficult proof that there is a "ghost in the machine" after all.
     
  22. Totoro

    Totoro Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2011
    Messages:
    398
    Likes Received:
    445
    Location:
    Tampa, Fl
    Morphoic resonance is new to me and I just did a quick read, but if true, could that be why physical characteristics carry over from one life to another? Especially fatal or crippling marks and wounds?
     
  23. Nightrain

    Nightrain Senior Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2009
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    31
    Location:
    Connecticut, USA
    Although Dr. Rupert Sheldrake doesn't explicitly state that Morphic Resonance explains the phenomenon of physical characteristics that carry over from one life to another, it certainly lends additional qualitative substance to such a possibility. Given, at the very least, that DNA does not explain how formerly identical cells with identical DNA begin to mysteriously differentiate into specialized organ cells; scientific knowledge is left with a huge and gaping hole in the argument that all life is strictly the random mechanical result of accidental mutations and natural selection.


    Sometimes, I think that scientific evidence pertains not only to what we can observe in nature, but also what we cannot; for evidence may well lay in the missing field which our science cannot observe, but which causes those strange things we can see in nature.
     
  24. Totoro

    Totoro Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2011
    Messages:
    398
    Likes Received:
    445
    Location:
    Tampa, Fl
    When I read up on him, I certainly envisioned that possibility as an effect of what he was describing. It would also explain why we tend to travel in soul groups, in that familiar or similar patterns have enhancing effects, one of which very well may be sympathetic resonance. This also may be why it's easier to detect "messages" that were meant for you.
     

Share This Page