Pleased to meet you all and any Cathars!
- Thread starter Valerian
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Jaimie
Senior Member
Hi Sea & Sky !
When ever I have seen myself from my past lives I tend to have long-shaped faces, quite thick hair, a mix of curly and straight. I have not seen how my past life from the 1920's eyes were, the shape of them, more than her man comparing them to the eyes of a horse, which I think can make them quite big, perhaps. I suspect that is the the case how other people reacted when I was just looking up or looking at them, that one can't hide the eyes. In another past life I did have big eyes and was for a time with a jealous partner. I had to look down or so because again when I looked at people it was really visible that I did that so I think I was aware of that. I have heard in good and bad that a lot of my expression goes into my eyes, but I am thinking perhaps it would have been less visible if they were smaller, I don't know.
About the skin color of the 1920's I am insecure. I think my past life mother was mix race with not so dark skin and her father had white skin and dark hair. For me it is hard to say because when I have seen her flickering by with her hands etc it could very well have been during summer time which could explain that she either a little sunburned or that that was her natural skin color. I don't know where they drew the line in America of what they considered colored or white.
I think I might have found my past life mother when she and some other actresses, singers were on a review from a show in New Orleans, or it could be that this woman only looked like the mother I have seen in my visions like a twin or something, they are so very much alike my first impression was it had to be her.
She also had a background of singing in church which fit my visions. She had a beautiful voice. This woman was sadly killed during a fire. The orchestra along with the mix of colored and white audience escaped, but she and some others rushed upwards to try to save scene-clothing etc. People were ready outside shouting at them to jump, she was close to the window, but very sadly did not even make it out before she died along with some of her co-workers. This woman was named Sadie, but she was married to one of the crew as well, a colored man and he was one of the ones who died that night too in the fire. There is NO information if she was a mother or not.
Thank you for wondering !
/Jaimie
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Jaimie
Senior Member
Hi Sea and Sky again ! I forgot to mention before that in one experience my Papa had something in his hair that made it look even darker shade, it was NEVER in any of my experience of him just free as it was, but he use to have a long curl from his pile that use to have a life of it's own and came out of the wave that the pile otherwise was slicked as.
I also have one flashback of watching my mother getting something darker painted on her, especially her face as she closes her eyes as someone else is helping her with that and her arms and hands, on one side of the hands, not the inside. So I think if this is true they wanted her to look to have even more dark skin than she had.
/Jaimie
I forgot to mention before that in one experience my Papa had something in his hair that made it look even darker shade, it was NEVER in any of my experience of him just free as it was, but he use to have a long curl from his pile that use to have a life of it's own and came out of the wave that the pile otherwise was slicked as. I also have one flashback of watching my mother getting something darker painted on her, especially her face as she closes her eyes as someone else is helping her with that and her arms and hands, on one side of the hands, not the inside. So I think if this is true they wanted her to look to have even more dark skin than she had.
/Jaimie
SeaAndSky
Senior Registered
Hi Kaye,
Please check in from time-to-time by PM or post to let us know how you are doing. I hope things are improving. However, in addition to a bit of concern about your situation, I had a thought about something else. I suddenly thought of you shouting and marching as part of the protest movements you have been active with. It made me wonder whether there is a connection between that and this. From a causation standpoint, I am not merely looking at the physical side of things. Actually, that may or may not be an issue. Mostly, it just seems interesting to me not only that it would happen at this stage of your life (which might or might not be purely natural), but that it would linger like it has. Once again, this might or might not be purely natural.
However, I am by nature suspicious of "coincidence". The life of a perfecta has found you once again. It was initiated with a variety of physical symptoms, dream lessons, and a new perspective on a variety of life issues. At this point, I have listened through your regression at least three and possibly four times. The clash and gap between what is shown and taught there by those women and their teacher, and (without getting too much into the details) between the protest movements of the current era is much more than profound. It makes me wonder whether the loss of your voice may have more to do with things of the spirit (especially the needs and goals of your new life as a perfecta) than with things of the flesh.
Cordially,
S&S
Please check in from time-to-time by PM or post to let us know how you are doing. I hope things are improving. However, in addition to a bit of concern about your situation, I had a thought about something else. I suddenly thought of you shouting and marching as part of the protest movements you have been active with. It made me wonder whether there is a connection between that and this. From a causation standpoint, I am not merely looking at the physical side of things. Actually, that may or may not be an issue. Mostly, it just seems interesting to me not only that it would happen at this stage of your life (which might or might not be purely natural), but that it would linger like it has. Once again, this might or might not be purely natural.
However, I am by nature suspicious of "coincidence". The life of a perfecta has found you once again. It was initiated with a variety of physical symptoms, dream lessons, and a new perspective on a variety of life issues. At this point, I have listened through your regression at least three and possibly four times. The clash and gap between what is shown and taught there by those women and their teacher, and (without getting too much into the details) between the protest movements of the current era is much more than profound. It makes me wonder whether the loss of your voice may have more to do with things of the spirit (especially the needs and goals of your new life as a perfecta) than with things of the flesh.
Cordially,
S&S
SeaAndSky
Senior Registered
Hi Kaye,
BTW--My comments above are not meant to convey some form of veiled criticism from an imagined superior position. Everybody seems to be radically polarized these days, and I don't claim immunity from this ailment of our modern social and political life. However, my own polarization and intractable attitudes towards the "other side"--whether "justified" or not--have come to seem increasingly out of sync with what I would aspire to be. Frankly, no one seems to know how to dial things down when it comes to political/social issues and rhetoric anymore. The political becomes the personal, the battle against ideas becomes a battle against people, and only "total victory" becomes acceptable. So it was with the Church of Roma. The extermination of the Cathars and Catharism was the result. But if our ideal is the Church of Amor, and our personal goal is to be "in the Light", how can we continue to walk in such attitudes and approaches? This, at least, has been something going through my mind--though I have so far found it far more difficult to live by it.
Cordially,
S&S
BTW--My comments above are not meant to convey some form of veiled criticism from an imagined superior position. Everybody seems to be radically polarized these days, and I don't claim immunity from this ailment of our modern social and political life. However, my own polarization and intractable attitudes towards the "other side"--whether "justified" or not--have come to seem increasingly out of sync with what I would aspire to be. Frankly, no one seems to know how to dial things down when it comes to political/social issues and rhetoric anymore. The political becomes the personal, the battle against ideas becomes a battle against people, and only "total victory" becomes acceptable. So it was with the Church of Roma. The extermination of the Cathars and Catharism was the result. But if our ideal is the Church of Amor, and our personal goal is to be "in the Light", how can we continue to walk in such attitudes and approaches? This, at least, has been something going through my mind--though I have so far found it far more difficult to live by it.
Cordially,
S&S
SeaAndSky
Senior Registered
I have cited cathar.info as a good source of information, but like many other resources I think it suffers from leaning too much on the records of the Inquisition, which are virtually all that survived. However, it should be borne in mind that the Inquisition was a "mop-up" operation put into place (after the Albigensian Crusade had already slaughtered the great mass of Cathars and Cathar perfecti) in order to ferret out and eliminate the stubborn remnants in isolated villages and settlements. So, Inquisition records are not only being written by very hostile witnesses, they generally only contain the possibly distorted views of simple village adherents rather than the greats--IMO. Consequently, I am often finding things that I think are simply incorrect, distorted or lack nuance.
For example, among the implications of Cathar dualist beliefs on Cathar.info and repeated in various forms elsewhere are these two (http://www.cathar.info/cathar_beliefs.htm#implications):
1. Procreative sex was bad, since conception would result in another soul being trapped. For this reason, normal sex between man and wife was as bad as any other procreative sex. Marriage was worthless, while contraception was regarded with approval. Also, there was no reason to condemn any form of non-procreative sex.
3. The sooner we can shed this tunic of flesh, the sooner our souls could be free to fly like a spark of light back to heaven, the realm of the good God. There was therefore no reason to discourage suicide.
Neither of these two make sense from the standpoint of Cathar theology, and the Cathars were not simpletons. Before they were wiped out, they had been sending their best and brightest to some of the finest Universities in Europe where they were trained in all of the wisdom of the day (and consequently capable of laying low the clergy that sought to best them in public debates).
As to 1, above, Cathar perfecti were ascetics and shunned sex in any form as part of their search for salvation (i.e., being able to ascend after death and not be reborn), but sex was not forbidden to ordinary believers. However, the primary misconception set forth pertains to "being trapped". The Cathars believed that we had already been led astray and trapped in matter. More babies did not create this fact, they provided the way out. The Cathars saw humanity as part of the third of the angels that were cast down to Earth in Satan's fall as per Rev. 12:4 and 12:9. Like Buddhists, they believed that human to animal reincarnation took place. And, they believed that one or the other would take place after death unless the believer achieved the "good death" dying like a perfecti after receiving the Consolamentum and not falling back into "fleshly" things before death. However, there is a hitch there. For obvious reasons, One could only accomplish the "good death" while in human form. Thus, to deride or deny human procreation was to discourage or deny a fellow soul an available human body with its associated opportunity to achieve the "good death" that would free them to ascend on high. The Cathars probably were less insistent on marriage and procreation as an absolute duty for those not bound by vows to a celibate religious life, and probably more easy-going on a variety of issues. But the idea that they saw conception as merely trapping another soul and being an evil to be avoided would make no sense as it would merely condemn the fallen souls (i.e., all of us) to endless lifetimes as animals--unable to achieve salvation and once again "enter the Light". The idea set forth in 1, above, in its various forms strikes me as an exaggeration by their detractors, who were quite willing to twist their positions into absurdities that they would never have taken.
As to 3, above, Cathar Perfecti who had received the Consolamentum were indeed eager to shed the tunic of flesh, but that was only after and if it had served its purpose and they were ready for the "good death". Part of the purpose of the tunic of flesh was to allow Perfecti to do good and spread the tenets of their religion during their remaining time "in the flesh". However, they did bow to the inevitable, and it is reported that Perfecti willingly walked into the flames when they could not be avoided. Nonetheless, that was only because they had received the Consolamentum and not fallen again into fleshly ways afterwards, meaning that their way into the Light was prepared. Dying without it being a "good death" simply meant a return to the flesh, trapped once again in the darkness of matter. And, in that situation, suicide (like any other form of death) just meant another turn of the wheel. If they were lucky that meant a human body, and another chance to escape via the "good death". If not, they might end up as a gelded steer being fattened for the Yule feast--or even worse. So, this idea is once again, IMO, a twisting or over-simplification of their position.
Cordially,
S&S
For example, among the implications of Cathar dualist beliefs on Cathar.info and repeated in various forms elsewhere are these two (http://www.cathar.info/cathar_beliefs.htm#implications):
1. Procreative sex was bad, since conception would result in another soul being trapped. For this reason, normal sex between man and wife was as bad as any other procreative sex. Marriage was worthless, while contraception was regarded with approval. Also, there was no reason to condemn any form of non-procreative sex.
3. The sooner we can shed this tunic of flesh, the sooner our souls could be free to fly like a spark of light back to heaven, the realm of the good God. There was therefore no reason to discourage suicide.
Neither of these two make sense from the standpoint of Cathar theology, and the Cathars were not simpletons. Before they were wiped out, they had been sending their best and brightest to some of the finest Universities in Europe where they were trained in all of the wisdom of the day (and consequently capable of laying low the clergy that sought to best them in public debates).
As to 1, above, Cathar perfecti were ascetics and shunned sex in any form as part of their search for salvation (i.e., being able to ascend after death and not be reborn), but sex was not forbidden to ordinary believers. However, the primary misconception set forth pertains to "being trapped". The Cathars believed that we had already been led astray and trapped in matter. More babies did not create this fact, they provided the way out. The Cathars saw humanity as part of the third of the angels that were cast down to Earth in Satan's fall as per Rev. 12:4 and 12:9. Like Buddhists, they believed that human to animal reincarnation took place. And, they believed that one or the other would take place after death unless the believer achieved the "good death" dying like a perfecti after receiving the Consolamentum and not falling back into "fleshly" things before death. However, there is a hitch there. For obvious reasons, One could only accomplish the "good death" while in human form. Thus, to deride or deny human procreation was to discourage or deny a fellow soul an available human body with its associated opportunity to achieve the "good death" that would free them to ascend on high. The Cathars probably were less insistent on marriage and procreation as an absolute duty for those not bound by vows to a celibate religious life, and probably more easy-going on a variety of issues. But the idea that they saw conception as merely trapping another soul and being an evil to be avoided would make no sense as it would merely condemn the fallen souls (i.e., all of us) to endless lifetimes as animals--unable to achieve salvation and once again "enter the Light". The idea set forth in 1, above, in its various forms strikes me as an exaggeration by their detractors, who were quite willing to twist their positions into absurdities that they would never have taken.
As to 3, above, Cathar Perfecti who had received the Consolamentum were indeed eager to shed the tunic of flesh, but that was only after and if it had served its purpose and they were ready for the "good death". Part of the purpose of the tunic of flesh was to allow Perfecti to do good and spread the tenets of their religion during their remaining time "in the flesh". However, they did bow to the inevitable, and it is reported that Perfecti willingly walked into the flames when they could not be avoided. Nonetheless, that was only because they had received the Consolamentum and not fallen again into fleshly ways afterwards, meaning that their way into the Light was prepared. Dying without it being a "good death" simply meant a return to the flesh, trapped once again in the darkness of matter. And, in that situation, suicide (like any other form of death) just meant another turn of the wheel. If they were lucky that meant a human body, and another chance to escape via the "good death". If not, they might end up as a gelded steer being fattened for the Yule feast--or even worse. So, this idea is once again, IMO, a twisting or over-simplification of their position.
Cordially,
S&S
SeaAndSky
Senior Registered
My prior email brings up another issue that I have had with what we know about Catharism in terms of "reaping as you sow" in relation to reincarnation or anything similar to that. Most of the sources I have read (once again based on the paltry information available via the inquisition) state that a "later" belief of the Cathars was that the spirit of the dead person was harassed and harried by the demonic host when it left the body, and consequently entered the first available body it could find to get away from them (whether human or animal). Hence, I commented that "if they were lucky" they would enter another human body. However, this appears to be something told to the inquisitors after their best sources were wiped out by the crusade. So, I have some real doubts about this as well.
To begin with, the Cathars loved the Gospels and based their doctrine on them. So, I think they would have read those in the light of their beliefs. From that standpoint, I think they would have seen the need to preserve the gift of the Consolamentum inviolate until death as being taught in the Parable of the 10 Virgins (Matt. 25:1-13), where only the wise and diligent virgins who kept their lamps trimmed and burning made it into the marriage supper, with the others left in the outer darkness (i.e., consigned once again to physical existence). Likewise, I think they would probably see the chances for another human incarnation as being largely based on whether progress had been made in the current incarnation, deriving this teaching from the Parable of the Talents (Matt. 25:14-30).
In terms of the latter, only the Servant who buried the talent he held in trust in the earth (which may be symbolic of how he spent his attention, time and gifts on earthly things) is deprived of his talent and cast into the outer darkness (i.e., once again into the flesh). The two who invested and made gains are given still greater responsibility and chances to progress. So, I tend to think that the chance to reincarnate again as a human being was not a "crap shoot" in the minds of the leading perfecti (before their destruction). In accordance with the parable, only the one who had spurned his/her opportunity, done nothing to advance, and (seemingly) set his/her heart on material things would lose ground and be immersed even deeper in the darkness of the flesh (which might include an animal incarnation). It seems that those who invested what they held in trust as intended would be given still further responsibilities and chances to advance in human form.
Cordially,
S&S
PS--All of the above is IMO. I.e., just me trying to "think like a Cathar". But I think it is probably as reasonable as anything else in this field.
PPS--I don't know if the demotion of the one who buried his talent was perpetual, but I doubt it. However, on this I can't (for the moment) think of an applicable scripture outside of the general ones that relate to the wonders and constancy of God's mercy.
PPPS--With apologies to all Buddhists, I personally see no reason to believe in human to animal reincarnation. I'm just trying to see things through the lens of Catharism.
To begin with, the Cathars loved the Gospels and based their doctrine on them. So, I think they would have read those in the light of their beliefs. From that standpoint, I think they would have seen the need to preserve the gift of the Consolamentum inviolate until death as being taught in the Parable of the 10 Virgins (Matt. 25:1-13), where only the wise and diligent virgins who kept their lamps trimmed and burning made it into the marriage supper, with the others left in the outer darkness (i.e., consigned once again to physical existence). Likewise, I think they would probably see the chances for another human incarnation as being largely based on whether progress had been made in the current incarnation, deriving this teaching from the Parable of the Talents (Matt. 25:14-30).
In terms of the latter, only the Servant who buried the talent he held in trust in the earth (which may be symbolic of how he spent his attention, time and gifts on earthly things) is deprived of his talent and cast into the outer darkness (i.e., once again into the flesh). The two who invested and made gains are given still greater responsibility and chances to progress. So, I tend to think that the chance to reincarnate again as a human being was not a "crap shoot" in the minds of the leading perfecti (before their destruction). In accordance with the parable, only the one who had spurned his/her opportunity, done nothing to advance, and (seemingly) set his/her heart on material things would lose ground and be immersed even deeper in the darkness of the flesh (which might include an animal incarnation). It seems that those who invested what they held in trust as intended would be given still further responsibilities and chances to advance in human form.
Cordially,
S&S
PS--All of the above is IMO. I.e., just me trying to "think like a Cathar". But I think it is probably as reasonable as anything else in this field.
PPS--I don't know if the demotion of the one who buried his talent was perpetual, but I doubt it. However, on this I can't (for the moment) think of an applicable scripture outside of the general ones that relate to the wonders and constancy of God's mercy.
PPPS--With apologies to all Buddhists, I personally see no reason to believe in human to animal reincarnation. I'm just trying to see things through the lens of Catharism.
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SeaAndSky
Senior Registered
Hi Kaye,
Checking again to see how you are doing.
Please let us know.
Cordially,
S&S
PS--I can't help but think that your health would be assisted by a move South. I lived in Rochester for 8 years--very harsh long-lasting Winters, but beautiful Summers. I didn't mind, but I wasn't having any health problems. I can't help but think that you would find Winters down here a lot easier on your health. /s&s
Checking again to see how you are doing.
Please let us know.
Cordially,
S&S
PS--I can't help but think that your health would be assisted by a move South. I lived in Rochester for 8 years--very harsh long-lasting Winters, but beautiful Summers. I didn't mind, but I wasn't having any health problems. I can't help but think that you would find Winters down here a lot easier on your health. /s&s
SeaAndSky
Senior Registered
All,
I previously noted (in Post 210, above) that Eowyn, a long time member of this board, had interesting memories of her own past life and death as a Cathar. I think that all who are interested in the Cathars will find it a very worthwhile read. Here is a link:
https://rememberinglifeanddeath.weebly.com/cathar-woman.html
I have not tried to pin Eowyn's Cathar PL down in terms of probable dates, though it seems to me that it would be relatively early in the period of persecution. In addition, I think anyone who visits will want to explore the rest of her website and past life memories. There is much there of interest to those interested in past lives.
Cordially,
S&S
I previously noted (in Post 210, above) that Eowyn, a long time member of this board, had interesting memories of her own past life and death as a Cathar. I think that all who are interested in the Cathars will find it a very worthwhile read. Here is a link:
https://rememberinglifeanddeath.weebly.com/cathar-woman.html
I have not tried to pin Eowyn's Cathar PL down in terms of probable dates, though it seems to me that it would be relatively early in the period of persecution. In addition, I think anyone who visits will want to explore the rest of her website and past life memories. There is much there of interest to those interested in past lives.
Cordially,
S&S
SeaAndSky
Senior Registered
Hi Kaye,
Just checking in again to see how you are doing, and hoping for a bulletin. I realize you may be in greater danger from Covid 19 due to your health issues and hope that you've been able to find a "safe" place of some kind to secrete yourself from this wave of illness. Actually, I can't help but hope that you have been able to escape from the big city. Such a large concentration of people at a time like this makes me nervous.
Please let us know.
Cordially,
S&S
Just checking in again to see how you are doing, and hoping for a bulletin. I realize you may be in greater danger from Covid 19 due to your health issues and hope that you've been able to find a "safe" place of some kind to secrete yourself from this wave of illness. Actually, I can't help but hope that you have been able to escape from the big city. Such a large concentration of people at a time like this makes me nervous.
Please let us know.
Cordially,
S&S
WOW, this is much reading stuff from Eowyn. Thanks.
Losangeles Williams
New Member
https://www.kryon.com/cartprodimages/2018 downloads/download_cathar_18.html
Hello,
I am new to this forum . I found this forum after googling; remembering past life as Cathar woman. As I have had dreams throughout my life that have involved the themes of the circumstances of the times.
I don’t know if you are open to listening to channelings or not. I know it’s not for everyone. I remember listening to a channel by a man named Lee Carroll, who channels an entity/energy called Kryon. This link takes you to a page where there are four audios. These were recorded in front of large audience in Cathar Country France, the subject being the essence of the Cathars, and past lives of those who remember being Cathar.
Kryon covers a lot about past lives and reincarnation remembrance in many other chanelled messages that I have found have been helpful.
If it is too far out ,( these audios ) I respectfully will not bring them up again .
Hello,
I am new to this forum . I found this forum after googling; remembering past life as Cathar woman. As I have had dreams throughout my life that have involved the themes of the circumstances of the times.
I don’t know if you are open to listening to channelings or not. I know it’s not for everyone. I remember listening to a channel by a man named Lee Carroll, who channels an entity/energy called Kryon. This link takes you to a page where there are four audios. These were recorded in front of large audience in Cathar Country France, the subject being the essence of the Cathars, and past lives of those who remember being Cathar.
Kryon covers a lot about past lives and reincarnation remembrance in many other chanelled messages that I have found have been helpful.
If it is too far out ,( these audios ) I respectfully will not bring them up again .
Losangeles Williams
New Member
There’s actually five audios on the page , not four.
SeaAndSky
Senior Registered
Hi Losangeles,
Welcome to the board! In terms of your query, I don't think there are any problems with citing channeled information in terms of board rules. Of course, though the fact it is channeled may not be problematic, I can imagine a possibility that channeled messages could be overly graphic or otherwise violate some rule. I doubt it in this circumstance, and will probably listen to these after Thanksgiving as I am always extremely interested in Cathar content and Cathar past lives.
Cordially,
S&S
PS--For myself, I am not a fan of channeled information, but that is due to a heightened sense of concern about the reliability of such info and its source. Nonetheless, I will be interested to listen, and also very interested to hear about any memories you may have.
Welcome to the board! In terms of your query, I don't think there are any problems with citing channeled information in terms of board rules. Of course, though the fact it is channeled may not be problematic, I can imagine a possibility that channeled messages could be overly graphic or otherwise violate some rule. I doubt it in this circumstance, and will probably listen to these after Thanksgiving as I am always extremely interested in Cathar content and Cathar past lives.
Cordially,
S&S
PS--For myself, I am not a fan of channeled information, but that is due to a heightened sense of concern about the reliability of such info and its source. Nonetheless, I will be interested to listen, and also very interested to hear about any memories you may have.
SeaAndSky
Senior Registered
I'm bumping this thread up as I do from time-to-time just in case there are any new members who were Cathars, and also to check to see if Kaye, our resident Cathar Perfecti, has found her way back. This is especially appropriate at this time as her last post was #197 on January 13, 2020, almost one year ago, She had been ill for a long time with throat and respiratory issues and had lost her job. I know she would have been very concerned about something like Covid because of her health problems.
Another reason for bringing this back up is a growing belief that she did not make it through the pandemic. From that standpoint, there are certain things that she shared in private messages with me and others in regard to her experiences of Catharism and as a Cathar that I think would be beneficial to share in a more general way and need no longer remain confidential. So, I will be transferring some of those over from PMs over the next week or so, just so a larger number of people can benefit from the information.
The foregoing will provide some real insights into Catharism and the Cathar experience, from someone who met her death in that lifetime with the remaining cream of Cathar adepts in the great pyre prepared for them following the siege of Montsegur. The rest of her group did not return, and has apparently never returned (as one would expect when speaking of Cathar Perfecti), but they were concerned for her and contacted her during her regression to those times. I think she wondered herself why she had not also remained in the Light, but that was a question that I don't think she ever was able to answer during the time she was keeping in contact with the board, though I suspect she has rejoined them and found out at this point.
The information will, I think, be a good deal more pertinent and useful than the lectures linked and suggested in #228 above. I listened to four and gave up, considering the material to be fairly generic and wispy New Age stuff with only minimal relationship to the Cathars. However, that is just my opinion. Others may have their own.
Cordially,
S&S
PS--In reviewing the last few pages prior to writing, I also came across some last postings from KenJ and had a sudden pang. Rest well old friend, you are definitely missed!
Another reason for bringing this back up is a growing belief that she did not make it through the pandemic. From that standpoint, there are certain things that she shared in private messages with me and others in regard to her experiences of Catharism and as a Cathar that I think would be beneficial to share in a more general way and need no longer remain confidential. So, I will be transferring some of those over from PMs over the next week or so, just so a larger number of people can benefit from the information.
The foregoing will provide some real insights into Catharism and the Cathar experience, from someone who met her death in that lifetime with the remaining cream of Cathar adepts in the great pyre prepared for them following the siege of Montsegur. The rest of her group did not return, and has apparently never returned (as one would expect when speaking of Cathar Perfecti), but they were concerned for her and contacted her during her regression to those times. I think she wondered herself why she had not also remained in the Light, but that was a question that I don't think she ever was able to answer during the time she was keeping in contact with the board, though I suspect she has rejoined them and found out at this point.
The information will, I think, be a good deal more pertinent and useful than the lectures linked and suggested in #228 above. I listened to four and gave up, considering the material to be fairly generic and wispy New Age stuff with only minimal relationship to the Cathars. However, that is just my opinion. Others may have their own.
Cordially,
S&S
PS--In reviewing the last few pages prior to writing, I also came across some last postings from KenJ and had a sudden pang. Rest well old friend, you are definitely missed!
Reincarnat
Member
Following, very interesting thread and want to go deeper.
SeaAndSky
Senior Registered
Hi Reincarnat:
The best overview of the Cathars, their historical impact, and their doctrines (IMO) can probably be found at cathar.info, a site devoted to them. However, for the most part, the author can only quote what was said about them by their enemies of the Inquisition--sometimes under torture. This is doubly suspect. First, because of the fact it was obtained under duress and recorded and passed down by those who despised them and ruthlessly tortured and exterminated them. Second, because the Inquisition (which was created to complete the extirpation of Cathars and Cathar doctrines) was merely cleaning up the remnants after the active crusade had already killed and burned most of them, including the cream (IMO) of their best teachers and preachers. So, take what you read on cathar.info and other websites with a grain of salt. I personally think that some of the less logical statements of belief/practices attributed to them are pure bunkum. Many also look to the series of books authored by Dr. Arthur Guirdham for further information. I have not read these, but they are often recommended.
Another member, who was also in communication with Kaye in regard to the meditation circle she was forming, has urged me to not post the information she had shared with us in private messages, but to continue waiting for her return. This information was not that earth-shaking, but still could be of use to sincere seekers. However, for the time being I am honoring his request.
I wish you the best in your research of this area. The Albigensian Crusade and the Inquisition that followed, which were used to wipe out these very peaceful and admirable folks, were among the most horrific undertakings of this kind--yet very few seem to know about what happened, or even that these folks existed.
Cordially,
S&S
PS--As you may have heard, the term "Cathar" was not their name for themselves, but was given to them by their enemies. To each other and those they served, they were merely "good men/women" or "good Christians".
The best overview of the Cathars, their historical impact, and their doctrines (IMO) can probably be found at cathar.info, a site devoted to them. However, for the most part, the author can only quote what was said about them by their enemies of the Inquisition--sometimes under torture. This is doubly suspect. First, because of the fact it was obtained under duress and recorded and passed down by those who despised them and ruthlessly tortured and exterminated them. Second, because the Inquisition (which was created to complete the extirpation of Cathars and Cathar doctrines) was merely cleaning up the remnants after the active crusade had already killed and burned most of them, including the cream (IMO) of their best teachers and preachers. So, take what you read on cathar.info and other websites with a grain of salt. I personally think that some of the less logical statements of belief/practices attributed to them are pure bunkum. Many also look to the series of books authored by Dr. Arthur Guirdham for further information. I have not read these, but they are often recommended.
Another member, who was also in communication with Kaye in regard to the meditation circle she was forming, has urged me to not post the information she had shared with us in private messages, but to continue waiting for her return. This information was not that earth-shaking, but still could be of use to sincere seekers. However, for the time being I am honoring his request.
I wish you the best in your research of this area. The Albigensian Crusade and the Inquisition that followed, which were used to wipe out these very peaceful and admirable folks, were among the most horrific undertakings of this kind--yet very few seem to know about what happened, or even that these folks existed.
Cordially,
S&S
PS--As you may have heard, the term "Cathar" was not their name for themselves, but was given to them by their enemies. To each other and those they served, they were merely "good men/women" or "good Christians".
SeaAndSky
Senior Registered
The Cathar Prophecy--
We are closing in on the 700th anniversary of the death of Guilhem Belibaste, the last known Cathar parfait, on the morning of August 21st 1321. Reportedly spoken right before they burned him at the stake, this prophecy spoke of how the Cathars would return in 700 years when "the laurel turns green again."
This August 12th 2021 will be 700 years. It is finally here. Will the prophecy be fulfilled? In what way would it or could it be fulfilled? I suppose one of the neo-Cathar groups may show up and make a claim to be the "real thing" returned, however, I have tried to research the ones I could find on the internet and found them underwhelming, unconvincing and uninspiring (IMO). That may just be me. Yet, somehow, I would like to be able to look and see/say that something momentous did in fact manifest in accordance with the prophecy.
I was told long ago that the God I worship was a "nick of time" God. The rescue of the children of Israel from Pharoah's host when they had their backs to the Red Sea is one of the examples cited. Likewise, it is said that the greatest light may be born at the time of the deepest darkness. The birth of Jesus in ancient Judea is an example cited there.
I cannot say that we are quite there yet. However, the way the world looks at the moment . . . who knows.
Anyhow, the Cathars were neither a radical intervention of divine power such as that seen at the crossing of the Red Sea, nor a radical intervention of the type seen in the birth, ministry and death of Jesus. Still, a reappearance of such folks couldn't hurt either. At least, not IMO.
We shall see. Even if the prophecy does come true, we may not know about it immediately. Its fulfillment may be in the birth of a single child or the discovery of something hidden. Perhaps it will be a descent of the Spirit in such a way as to undeniably re-establish the qualified ministry of the destroyed Parfaits and the lost "annointing" of the consolamentum. In any case, whatever it is may not become evident for years to come. Still it is good to have something to think and wonder about over the next 8 months.
Who knows? Maybe some light will dawn as next Summer draws to a close that will brighten all of our lives a bit.
Cordially,
S&S
We are closing in on the 700th anniversary of the death of Guilhem Belibaste, the last known Cathar parfait, on the morning of August 21st 1321. Reportedly spoken right before they burned him at the stake, this prophecy spoke of how the Cathars would return in 700 years when "the laurel turns green again."
This August 12th 2021 will be 700 years. It is finally here. Will the prophecy be fulfilled? In what way would it or could it be fulfilled? I suppose one of the neo-Cathar groups may show up and make a claim to be the "real thing" returned, however, I have tried to research the ones I could find on the internet and found them underwhelming, unconvincing and uninspiring (IMO). That may just be me. Yet, somehow, I would like to be able to look and see/say that something momentous did in fact manifest in accordance with the prophecy.
I was told long ago that the God I worship was a "nick of time" God. The rescue of the children of Israel from Pharoah's host when they had their backs to the Red Sea is one of the examples cited. Likewise, it is said that the greatest light may be born at the time of the deepest darkness. The birth of Jesus in ancient Judea is an example cited there.
I cannot say that we are quite there yet. However, the way the world looks at the moment . . . who knows.
Anyhow, the Cathars were neither a radical intervention of divine power such as that seen at the crossing of the Red Sea, nor a radical intervention of the type seen in the birth, ministry and death of Jesus. Still, a reappearance of such folks couldn't hurt either. At least, not IMO.
We shall see. Even if the prophecy does come true, we may not know about it immediately. Its fulfillment may be in the birth of a single child or the discovery of something hidden. Perhaps it will be a descent of the Spirit in such a way as to undeniably re-establish the qualified ministry of the destroyed Parfaits and the lost "annointing" of the consolamentum. In any case, whatever it is may not become evident for years to come. Still it is good to have something to think and wonder about over the next 8 months.
Who knows? Maybe some light will dawn as next Summer draws to a close that will brighten all of our lives a bit.
Cordially,
S&S
SeaAndSky
Senior Registered
Just kicking this thread up again, as I do from time-to-time in hopes that someone may have joined the board who is interested, especially reincarnated Cathars. Likewise, to let Kaye know that she is still missed at this end. I hope she has survived Covid, but that seems less and less likely with time. Still . . . .
Cordially,
S&S
PS--The time until the "Greening of the Laurel" continues to approach. I'd like to think that its coming will be marked by some sign, but even if it happens it may not be perceptible to anyone here, including me. Still . . . .
Cordially,
S&S
PS--The time until the "Greening of the Laurel" continues to approach. I'd like to think that its coming will be marked by some sign, but even if it happens it may not be perceptible to anyone here, including me. Still . . . .
SeaAndSky
Senior Registered
January 13, 2020 = Last Public Post from Kaye, who was our resident Cathar Perfectae (or at least in training to be one when the fire took her at Montsegur). In her last public post on this thread (#197) she let us know that she had been fired from her job due to her chronic laryngitis (she had been ill for a long time). On the same day, she was in communication by PM planning a schedule for synchronized group meditation sessions across different time zones without any indication in either that she was not going to continue in her path. . . . then nothing. Of course, Covid invaded our lives around this time or shortly after. So, after a year and a half, I have to assume she didn't make it (though I hope otherwise).
I have just finished reading through all of her public and private posts and trying to understand the message conveyed. The primary takeaway is not just what she wrote about the Cathars and their beliefs, but the fact that those that were there potentially have access to the same understanding she speaks of. It doesn't have to come through what another might provide or a lost book found, though these are also good. But for those who were Cathari, it can also be found by recovering who we were and what we knew. At least that is a beginning and may be all that is needed by some, the more advanced.
I don't believe that will apply to me, though she seemed to think that I also died there. Many died, but not many were among the Perfecti. Still, from what she said, those who entered the Light seemed to have an interest in helping the rest. So, I'm hoping that still applies. As usual, time will tell.
Cordially,
S&S
I have just finished reading through all of her public and private posts and trying to understand the message conveyed. The primary takeaway is not just what she wrote about the Cathars and their beliefs, but the fact that those that were there potentially have access to the same understanding she speaks of. It doesn't have to come through what another might provide or a lost book found, though these are also good. But for those who were Cathari, it can also be found by recovering who we were and what we knew. At least that is a beginning and may be all that is needed by some, the more advanced.
I don't believe that will apply to me, though she seemed to think that I also died there. Many died, but not many were among the Perfecti. Still, from what she said, those who entered the Light seemed to have an interest in helping the rest. So, I'm hoping that still applies. As usual, time will tell.
Cordially,
S&S
SeaAndSky
Senior Registered
Well, as it gets closer to the time for the "greening of the Laurel" I find myself kicking this thread up a bit more often. It's only been a month since my last post, though few seem to be as interested in this topic as I am at this point. Even for me, with no new news (so to speak) it is getting to be a bit more like stopping by to pay respects and leaving flowers at the cemetery. I am very ready for a new blossoming of some sort, and keep hoping every time I stop by the board that there will be something new posted here or . . . something. I check and then generally move on.
The Cathars were very wrong about a variety of things--theologically speaking--which only goes to show that people can be very much on target in terms of the heart of spirituality and still totally screw up the intellectual details. This is most evident when speaking about the Cathars, who focused on the two great commandments, Love of God and neighbor along with ascetic/mystical spirituality and discipline. Their best may not have been great theologians--in fact, they seem to have been wretched theologians--but they showed their spirituality and level of spiritual accomplishment in their love, their lives, and in the way they faced their own--generally horrible--demise.
Somehow, I have a great feeling of peace and calm when I think about them. It is just there, and I don't know why. A quietness. So, maybe I was there, though I very much doubt I was one of those who would have refused to recant and calmly walked into the fire--I'm too much of a coward now and I am assuming that I might have been even worse back then. Oh well, . . . I will keep hoping, even though I am by no means certain what I am hoping for. If you are similarly "afflicted" please speak up.* It would be good to know that I am not alone in this very peculiar obsession.
Cordially,
S&S
PS*--Speedwell, I think you may be, though you don't say too much about it.
The Cathars were very wrong about a variety of things--theologically speaking--which only goes to show that people can be very much on target in terms of the heart of spirituality and still totally screw up the intellectual details. This is most evident when speaking about the Cathars, who focused on the two great commandments, Love of God and neighbor along with ascetic/mystical spirituality and discipline. Their best may not have been great theologians--in fact, they seem to have been wretched theologians--but they showed their spirituality and level of spiritual accomplishment in their love, their lives, and in the way they faced their own--generally horrible--demise.
Somehow, I have a great feeling of peace and calm when I think about them. It is just there, and I don't know why. A quietness. So, maybe I was there, though I very much doubt I was one of those who would have refused to recant and calmly walked into the fire--I'm too much of a coward now and I am assuming that I might have been even worse back then. Oh well, . . . I will keep hoping, even though I am by no means certain what I am hoping for. If you are similarly "afflicted" please speak up.* It would be good to know that I am not alone in this very peculiar obsession.
Cordially,
S&S
PS*--Speedwell, I think you may be, though you don't say too much about it.
Hi S&S, thanks for mentioning me.
I'm glad you posted here. This is an interesting topic, though I don't have anything fresh to offer. In the present lifetime, at least in my moments of idle thought, I sometimes switch between thoughts of a very quiet contemplative life, and a rowdy boisterous one. I do have a great sympathy towards the Cathars, though I'm not much of a student of theology. It is mostly the simplicity of their lifestyle which I can grasp. As for the way some, perhaps not all, readily went to their deaths in the flames, that does strike me as meaning something. At any rate it gives me reason to pause and reflect upon it.
There is some difficulty in that much of the history is written by the victors. Much like the story of Joan of Arc which is recorded mainly in the account of her trial. I've seen quite a number of dramatisations of Joan's life (I realise she was not part of the Cathars) and though they vary, I'm left feeling they all fall short of the real story in one way or another. Where her story rejoins the Cathar one is in the way she went to her death.
Actually, one of the reasons I mentioned Joan is that I feel I've had a number of lifetimes in France or nearby countries, over the centuries. Though I'm in England this time, I don't really have any particular instinct for the history of these islands. Was I in France at the time of the Cathars? I can't say, though likely if I was it would have been as an ordinary peasant.
SeaAndSky
Senior Registered
Hi Speedwell,
I have had the same kind of pulls from opposite directions in my life. And, like you, I have great sympathy towards the Cathars, but as I read your post and analyzed my own feelings, I realized that the real pull for me is something else. I am drawn by a crazy and inexplicable sense that a teacher or teaching I need was there or that I will find the teacher or teaching among them in their returning (if it happens). Indeed, that is probably one of the reasons why I gravitated towards Kaye and the story she had to tell. I was hoping that, even if it was not her, she could be a way to what I was looking for.
I need and want that teaching, whatever it is. I can't say why I believe this, but that is what it comes down to. As Eowyn points out in her own account of living and dying in that era, it was the Middle ages, and life was pretty dismal for most ordinary people. The place and lives of the ordinary Credente were not extraordinarily better than anyone else during that era, and the lives of the Consoled (or Perfecti) were even more strenuous and ascetic. I would not want to go back to that time, even as a noble. So, it is not a romantic attachment to a particular era, nor even to a particular group of people. In fact, letting my rational mind have its say, it could be no more than me projecting one of the deepest longings of my spirit onto a convenient group/receptacle. But, that doesn't explain the longing, or the reason why a group that I consider to have been in error on many points has become its target.
Anyhow, there it is, and still I wait, clinging to a largely irrational hope.
Cordially,
S&S
I have had the same kind of pulls from opposite directions in my life. And, like you, I have great sympathy towards the Cathars, but as I read your post and analyzed my own feelings, I realized that the real pull for me is something else. I am drawn by a crazy and inexplicable sense that a teacher or teaching I need was there or that I will find the teacher or teaching among them in their returning (if it happens). Indeed, that is probably one of the reasons why I gravitated towards Kaye and the story she had to tell. I was hoping that, even if it was not her, she could be a way to what I was looking for.
I need and want that teaching, whatever it is. I can't say why I believe this, but that is what it comes down to. As Eowyn points out in her own account of living and dying in that era, it was the Middle ages, and life was pretty dismal for most ordinary people. The place and lives of the ordinary Credente were not extraordinarily better than anyone else during that era, and the lives of the Consoled (or Perfecti) were even more strenuous and ascetic. I would not want to go back to that time, even as a noble. So, it is not a romantic attachment to a particular era, nor even to a particular group of people. In fact, letting my rational mind have its say, it could be no more than me projecting one of the deepest longings of my spirit onto a convenient group/receptacle. But, that doesn't explain the longing, or the reason why a group that I consider to have been in error on many points has become its target.
Anyhow, there it is, and still I wait, clinging to a largely irrational hope.
Cordially,
S&S