What would happen if Reincarnation could be proven in Court?

Discussion in 'Reincarnation Questions' started by Nightrain, May 19, 2011.

  1. Nightrain

    Nightrain Senior Registered

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    Some people, like Victor Zammit, feel that the existence of Life After Death can be judged as possible when using the same legal criteria that is acceptable in most courtrooms. If people were permitted to submit witness testimony along with current known experiments, could such a thing be possible?

    If Reincarnation could be proven in a court of law, what results could one anticipate within society? Would people lose their moral compass and commit more crimes? Or, would people attach more karmic cause and effect for their actions? Would there be more suicides? Or less?
     
  2. Delonada

    Delonada Senior Registered

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    I think crime and hatred would lessen as the risk of being born into the position of a victim would deter people. Suicide could increase until we start taking care of our fellow human beings, ensuring that no one feels the despair to die.
     
  3. Kristopher

    Kristopher Senior Registered

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    Really interesting question. I think people would go seriously out of control if reincarnation was proven. Yes, murders would rise, people killing themselves becuase life seems to be getting to hard, people not caring about their health so they dont bother seeing a doctor simply becuase they have nothing to fear about death one bit.


    I think we would see a dramatic rise in the number of avoidable deaths. We have all had that feeling when we need to do something 'i will do it tomorrow', yet, we never get around to doing it ( or maybe thats just me being lazy? :freak: ). I feel many souls would be 'trapped' in the same cycle of life, giving up every life they have 'i will just get it right next time'. This would cause them to possibly have to repeat the same kind of life over and over again, more than usual. It would effect the purpose of coming ot earth in the first place, and I cant imagine too many guides being pleased.


    You made a good point by bringing up karma. Maybe people would be slighly controlled by karma, it would be like a substitute for hell. However, people only being good becuase of karma, thats not really being good out of free will, so I dont think that would count towards soul development? I honestly think that people knowing for a fact that reincarnation was real, would knock the whole set up that intelligent sources have planned for us to experience during our incarnations here on earth.
     
  4. Truthseeker

    Truthseeker Former Moderator

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    You raise a good question Nightrain. I think what you're asking is the very reason the teaching of reincarnation was rejected in Christian cultures.


    I believe that anyone who sees reincarnation as a moral free-for-all doesn't understand the process nor the point of reincarnation. A Muslim would be far less likely to run onto a Jewish bus with a bomb strapped to his chest if he thought, instead of recieving 72 virgins in heaven, he would reincarnate into a Jewish family.


    As far as suicide goes, if reincarnation was provable, what is the point of suicide? People commit suicide to end the suffering of life. If life does not end, rather, you are simply reborn into another body, commiting suicide would be a moot point.
     
  5. pixarfan

    pixarfan Member

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    But are murder and suicide rates really higher in places where reincarnation is more accepted? (certain Eastern cultures). As far as I know, I don't think so. The U.S. has a ridiculously high murder rate and reincarnation is not well-accepted here. It seems to me that the belief in karma and "we're all in this together" may be a murder deterrent (I think reincarnation has more evidence going for it than Hell does, and, say, a KKK member may be more freaked out by possibly coming back as a black person than being stabbed with a burning pitchfork for all eternity).


    Also, this reminds me of the case where the little boy remembers being murdered in a past life, confronts his murderer (who becomes white as a sheet), and finds his bones (complete with skull crack where the man had killed him). Possibilities like that could also decrease the murder rate if belief in reincarnation became mainstream in Western culture. However, there would probably also be stories of people faking "knowing" what happened.


    Suicides may increase ("My next life has GOT to be better than this $h!t") or decrease ("Thanks to karma, I'm just going to keep going through the same problems in the next life again and again until I solve them").
     
  6. pixarfan

    pixarfan Member

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    I could DEFINITELY see a rise in procrastination, though ("Oh, I'll take care of it in the next life!")


    Knowing that we'd come back to our planet again and again may lead to more conservation efforts, so that would be a plus.
     
  7. Kristopher

    Kristopher Senior Registered

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    Good point, but I think it really does depend on the kind of person. People may use suicide as a temporary relief from the suffering they are going through. They may also feel annoyed that they have incarnated into a hard life. With proof that we do reincarnate, I think everyone would end up feeling a little annoyed if they have a hard life.


    I think we will all agree that the idea of reincarnation being proven could have positive and negitive effects on society. It will be interesting to see what other peoples opinions are on this thread.
     
  8. Truthseeker

    Truthseeker Former Moderator

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    I've wrestled with this before. I'm sorry to say that a while back I was asking questions about suicide and reincarnation. I was going through a real tough time. I asked myself, if reincarnation is real, what is stopping me from just ending this crap and starting all over again?


    I then thought to myself, first of all, it would be an incredibly selfish thing to do. What about the souls I would leave behind and the devastating effect it would have on them? That, to me, is a deterant enough right there. But then I thought, even if there is no such thing as karma, and the next life is whatever I make of it. In the next life I may have a different body, but I'm still me - the good and the bad. The reality is that most of my troubles in life are self-inflicted by my habits and choices. If I don't fix those things in this life, those same habits and choices will follow me into the next life because they are who I am. I'll end up in the same mess all over again. I have to change who I am in this life if I truly want things to be better in the next life.


    Just my personal thoughts.
     
  9. kmatjhwy

    kmatjhwy Senior Member

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    Now personally even though I believe in Reincarnation, I hope it can never can be proved in court. I think Life is really interesting just as it is with all the variables that one sees in life. Personally I love just watching the show of Life so to speak.


    Do think that this is one reason why we do forget, or at least meant to forget, our past lives is that we are meant to face this present life head on as it is. Also if it was ever proved so to speak in a court, then do think that there would be a certain segment of the population which I believe would have severe depression. For I have heard just too many people thru the years remarking because of their present hard lives that they hope that reincarnation is not true for they would not want to come back again with all the problems in their own lives and the world. For just how many actually relish the thought of going to heaven and being with family and friends for eternity so there would be quite a depressing shock with many people do think. This is besides also with some losing their moral compass so to speak or to commit suicide as some have said.


    Personally I have believed in reincarnation for years. Now when I was younger, there was a time in my youth where I seriously at times contemplated suicide. But I so felt that I would be facing the same dilemmas in the next like so to speak. Yes just like you were saying Truthseeker. But as this present life went on, I came into a place where I loved life just as it was. And when I came into this place as loving myself and my life as it was, and could see the good things that this present life had. Then the thoughts of suicide and so forth completely fell away from my life. Now I see Life with all the good and bad as being so absolutely interesting with offering so absolutely much. And that Life is really Great, Beautiful, and soooo Wonderful in so many aspects!


    Do think as my father once said that one reason we come back to have another life is just that we can 'Enjoy Life Again' in a human body again with all that life offers. But like I said earlier, do sincerely believe we are not meant to remember these other lives that we have lived so to speak for that we can face this present life and the dilemmas that this life presents head on.


    Just my two cents worth.
     
  10. usetawuz

    usetawuz Senior Registered

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    Well, to be proven in a court of law there must be a cause of action or a crime. While I cannot sue anyone over an expectation of reincarnation that did or did not occur, it is equally impossible to prosecute one for a successful suicide...or a reincarnation that did not occur...I would love to read the cases involved in trying to prove from precedent any cause of action enabling such a case.


    As for society running amock with mass suicides or murder based on a released sense of responsibility due to "another chance through reincarnation"...it doesn't wash for me. Think of the level of fear and doubt inherent in mainstream society today...there is no faith anywhere, much less in religious dogma, and belief in heaven and hell. On the contrary, a belief in nothing seems to be the norm. I consistently see a sense of fear for anything to do with the hereafter...religion fails to answer the call and the mere thought of reincarnation brings out the torches and wooden spikes. So if reincarnation became even a minority belief in the mainstream, a large share of those non-believers would still eschew it due to its inherent difference and "creepiness" ("Eewww...I don't want to come back as my beagle!" Or, "You mean I might have been married to my sister in the last lifetime? I'm not incestuous!") or other frequent misconceptions.


    What I mean is that faith is a hard commodity to find...we as believers in a truly viable, but definitely non-mainstream belief, with experiences and feelings to back up those beliefs, are relying on a true and deep sense of faith. All the devout followers of mainstream faiths that I deal with on a regular basis have not a modicum of the faith in their "religion" that I have in reincarnation. I, and they, commonly refer to it as "cultural catholicism" or "comfortable baptists"...so long as there are no issues of faith everything is ok...but when the train falls off the tracks I get questions from people who have never questioned anything before.


    This leads me to believe that there will not be faith in nor a strong enough belief in a safe and sure future in reincarnation to justify the negative activities like murder and suicide on a grand scale. And when enough from the mainstream believe in reincarnation, it will be used for the right reasons, and everyone will realize it is a priviledge and wonderful opportunity rather than a chance to see if you like it and check out when it gets tough.


    In short, I hold more faith in what I have espoused here than all the devout catholics in my wife's family ever considered. When it gets difficult, what do they rely on? Not their religion. This is a clear and easy picture for me.
     
  11. Shiftkitty

    Shiftkitty Registered User

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    I think people would probably wind up in the two extremes. Just as some of us can be basically good and do good and selfless things without any belief in Hell, some of us can lead responsible, caring lives dedicated to spiritual improvement without concern over whether or not we come back. Likewise, just as some of us can be shown undeniable proof that something is dangerous, deadly, or self-desctructive and still insist on doing it, some of us will insist on doing things that are equally self-destructive to our souls.


    I think my signature is oddly appropriate for this thread, though it does not reflect my belief...
     
  12. usetawuz

    usetawuz Senior Registered

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    Indeed!


    I like Victor Zammit's weekly blog and have read his book. As for proving the afterlife with a legal case it harkens back to the old joke...a doctor, a mathematician and a lawyer are tasked with proving 1 + 1 = 2; the biologist goes to the chalkboard and draws 1 sheep, then another, proving two...count 'em; the mathematician does the same with numbers...then the lawyer goes to the chalkboard and erases the sheep and numbers, sits on the table in front of the other two and says "What do you want 1 + 1 to equal?" A good lawyer can find a way to arrive at any conclusion, and people are especially suspicious of anything stated by one without their own representation to interpret for them. I don't think a legal case is the way to win minds and hearts...its that faith thing.


    Also it seems to me that the afterlife and reincarnation is like trying to convince someone of the correctness of an opposing political belief...one usually believes what they were brought up with...until something happens which makes it untenable to go on believing it...or not. The most solid evidence still does not necessarily resonate with some people, and maybe it is not supposed to.
     
  13. Lilmsmaggie

    Lilmsmaggie New Member

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    Heaven forbid. With our current adversarial system of justice, I wouldn't be surprised if a court found someone guilty in this life for a crime committed in a past life.


    In an adversarial system, when the most effective adversary is able to convince the judge or jury that his or her perspective on the case is the correct one, that adversary wins. Our system of law has nothing to do with truth or innocence.


    IMHO, Our system of law and justice is broken. The last thing we need is for some lawyer or court of law to consider the question of reincarnation.


    No! No! A thousand times No! Let's keep a court of law out of this.
     
  14. Eevee

    Eevee Administrator Emeritus Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I think we are talking here about the Western society, where reincarnation is not 'officially' accepted as truth. That makes a difference. In Eastern societies, or others where reincarnation is accepted as a part of Life, people are brought up with all the different aspects of reincarnation, so I think that is why amongst them there is no greater suicide or murder rate.


    In the Western societies however, proof of reincarnation in court would be for many, many people like a sudden splash in the ocean without having learned how to swim. Therefore I think people need a lot of good education/advice/exchange of experiences with remembering PL's, before it should be presented as a Fact to those who have barely any knowledge about the Laws of Karma and reincarnation.


    The last 15 to 20 years, belief in reincarnation has increased in the West, and a lot of good books (and this forum) appeared, and workshops were held, to fine-tune the knowledge and information for those wo are interested.


    I think a true belief and acceptance of reincarnation needs guidance, which those who are interested mostly also seek.


    Therefore, it is my opinion that our societies are not yet ready for a sudden representation of reincarnation as fact, because indeed, like others have said, without proper information about all that surrounds the Fact, those "doom scenario's", risen out of misconception, would affect the minds of the mainstream people, and might increase violence against oneself or others.


    I think the way it is going now, that the number of people who believe in reincarnation is slowly,but ever faster growing, is all the World can handle now, and maybe some Higher Force(s) is/are at work to make people aware of this Truth, at a pace that is fit for us. :)
     
  15. hydrolad

    hydrolad Senior Moderator Super Moderator

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    I tend to agree with "Lilmsmaggie", let's leave the current judicial system (at least the American one) OUT of the decision.


    IMHO I think it pretty near impossible to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Reincarnation does or doesn't exist.


    And pretty soon, a smart defense lawyer will mount an argument on parallel lives, multi-soul lives, walk-in's and so forth and really muddle the issue!


    I say let's leave well enough alone, and let each new lifetime be a fresh start for the entity involved and not be blaming him or her for deeds possibly committed during a past life!


    Just my ten cents (adjusted for inflation)! ;)
     
  16. RemainingSpirit

    RemainingSpirit Remaining Spirit

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    I don't feel it would make the least bit of difference, any more than religious principles do the opposite and deter crime.


    I also don't agree with Victor Zammit. Strangely enough, even the best cases that have good verifiable evidence, the rare stories, would still not be considered to have evidence that would stand up in court, and, even more strangely, seem to have less people who believe in them.
     
  17. usetawuz

    usetawuz Senior Registered

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    Don't remain under the assumption that a court of law is intended to locate the truth of a matter...it is solely used to identify the strongest conclusion (based on precedent in common law, and statute in civil law) and subjective influences (read "sharp attorneys") effect surprising outcomes every day...the variables are limitless.


    I still feel strongly that when an understanding and knowledge of reincarnation becomes more commonplace a positive change in the way we deal with each other while incarnate will occur. There will certainly be those recalcitrants, but we've got them now and the mainstream idea that they've only got one life to get it right certainly hasn't reduced their "sins".
     
  18. Ghost of Gumby

    Ghost of Gumby Hi, Friends : )

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    I don't think that there is ever going to be objective proof of reincarnation, not in a court of law. There may be a debate between philosophers, theologians, perhaps scientists. It seems like the ufo debate will be settled before the reincarnation debate, but that would be amazing if reincarnation could be proven by some objective means, but even if it were, not everyone would accept the proof.
     
  19. Kristopher

    Kristopher Senior Registered

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    I think we cant really change peoples religious beliefs. Even if we had proof that reincarnation was real, with the power of peoples faith in whatever religion, they would still denie it. Very few people tend to question the religion they were brought up with. If someone had a source of proof, they wouldnt want to hear it.
     
  20. Goldenage

    Goldenage Senior Registered

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    My 2 bits


    The wish that reincarnation be allocated standing in court proceedings is to miss the point entirely.Knowledge of the reincarnating nature of human consciousness is a metaphysical truth. It represents simultaneous awareness of both being and becoming and as such it is a category of knowing about both the personal self as well as an awareness of the origin thereof.


    The court system is devoted to ascertaining the truth of what appears to be a current-life experience in its own context and is thus in itself self-bounded. Insights that transcend self-knowledge inside of the apparently current life-frame automatically negate that boundary and are thus transcendental - immeasurable. If allowed inside the court system then enter the inquisition and the inquisitor.....


    In other words "get real", do not go there and do not think that if you went there you would somehow be "free" - quite the contrary.


    The comprehension of reincarnation in all its extent (even that all incarnations are thought only and are therefore empty in themselves i.e. do not exist except in the context of a higher consciousness) is merely a potential measure of Being, of the "soul energy, of the extent of Self and so forth.


    Such realization does not preclude a time-free higher-state as source that is both unknown and essentially unknowable for the simple reason that consciousness is not its own source.:angel:
     
  21. Raptor95

    Raptor95 member

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    Great question


    I have mentioned on past post about a Sci/Fi show many yrs ago about people living as homeless people and society being at a very low moral because all people could remember their past life’s. Then some girl that did not remember any of hers was trying to help them not remember to. "Therapist I guess". This was like 25 yrs ago.


    Ok I am old heheee!! No, I'm not :freak: Arhg!!!


    But I think that if we could prove it in court and more people remember, it would cause havoc all around. How many people that were murdered by accident or by a killer would testify that a certain person did it. And then they would have to come up with proof of that to. It would be good to make people pay for their actions. But at the same time as a juror it would be nerve wrecking. And then comes the longing to be with the family or loved one from that PL life.


    Kinda like Pandora’s Box.
     
  22. Goldenage

    Goldenage Senior Registered

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    enter the inquisition


    Kinda like Pandora’s Box. = enter the inquisition


    Quite!:angel:
     
  23. Ignotus

    Ignotus Senior Registered

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    Hopefully not. Its much better this way. If we could all remember, it would be a very very bad thing (for me, at least..). I would have to attend the Nuremberg Trials again (I escaped last time) and I would really be bullied a lot by those who were Holocaust victims. (Plus, those Nazi hunters may come after me!)


    And there would be a lot of separation. As people who were born in another family would most probably run away to their old one. And for terrorist who have not learn their ways, they'll just keep coming back and keep doing the same thing until they learn. And most probably, they'll stop caring for lives. Murderer's who were once victims would start murdering their murderers and if arrested, they would just say to the court 'What's the point of punishing me? He/she would come back next time. Plus, they deserve it anyway.' Honestly, punishment for past life crimes should be handled by Karma.


    And those have bank debts might have to pay them even in their next life, heck, they might even take away the newborns who own them money in their past life.


    Conclusively, it would be just horrible if we're not properly educated. Maybe when there more older souls then younger this actually would be a better thing.
     
  24. tiltjlp

    tiltjlp A Recycled Soul

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    It may be interesting to play What If, as if it were all a game, but it isn't. Remember that we aren't, and won't be, who we were in the past, in this life. Past life memories don't translate into current life action.
     
  25. Shiftkitty

    Shiftkitty Registered User

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    Aw, come on! Life's a game, and we're just trying to figure out the rules as we go.
     
  26. tiltjlp

    tiltjlp A Recycled Soul

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    I don't happen to agree. I think the purpose of living is our soul's spiritual development and progression. Life itself can be fun, but there's more to it I believe.
     
  27. Lawyer Daggett

    Lawyer Daggett New Member

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    The civil standard is only balance of convenience / reasonable satisfaction- which would be possible to satisfy with the right evidence. You would never satisfy beyond reasonable doubt - the criminal standard of proof which is akin to scientific proof.


    There are quite a lot of experienced Detectives on the record as having used supernatural evidence with good results.


    No doubt one day it will be raised. It could be an interesting trial, but I doubt if it would happen in my life time.


    If I am between lives, hopefully 'the masters' will let me come back and watch.....
     
  28. Goldenage

    Goldenage Senior Registered

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    u r the master


    There are no "masters" you are it, you get to decide what 2 do. You are not ready to move on until you decide you are. The criterion? Nothing left "undone"! Perfection of being that you know you have achieved :angel:
     

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