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Yet Another Theory

fiziwig

fiziwig

moderator emeritus
Yet another theory about how reincarnation works:

Life creates souls and souls guide the creation of life. The first souls arose from the first consciousness of the first primative animals. Gradually consciousness got stable enough that it could hold itself together after the death of the physical host, and then migrate into a newborn host. Then, in the between life state, these souls began to learn how to guide evolution in order to create better and better biological vehicles to house their consciousness.

But why bother with physical existence at all if we can exist in spirit form? Because in spirit form we are kind of lost and hazy and not quite completely real. The spirit life is more like a dream and we haven't learned yet how to control that dream, so we return to the more solid physical form. Even worse, if we stay in that nebulous non-physical state for too long our soul begins to disipate and fall apart. There's no solid core to hold it together and so we risk complete extinction of our soul.

Eventually, when we learn how to keep ourselves together in spirit form, and not just "drift with the currents" then we will be mentally strong enough to permanently exist only in pure spirit form. This is our ultimate goal.

But for now, our soul starts to dissipate while in spirit form and we either choose to go back into phsycial form to pull ourselves back together, or if we are too far gone into the dream aspect of the spirit form we get pushed back into the physical by helpful guides who have mastered the art of keeping themselves whole in pure spirit form.

The important thing to remember about this theory is that nobody, not even those who have mastered the skill of existing in pure spirit form, really understands how it all works. The souls on the other side have just as many, if not more, unanswered questions as we do. They, too, are trying to figure it all out.

Anyway, that's the theory.
 
Amazing, your theory is almost the exact opposit of what I think about souls.

My theory is that THIS life is kind of dream. We don't usually remember the periods in between lives because there is no ego in that sence as in here, and the soul uses different kind of level of thinking. It has no need to be of certain sex, race etc. That is real freedom, and that is something we here can't understand. We have personalities and lots of things we like and dislike. Those feelings keep our personality intact. But being without personality isn't the same that not being aware or whole as a spirit.

Being here means we have roles, which we play. Sometimes, perhaps in meditation, we can go above of this whole PLAY we have here, and we see that it's really just a play.

Don't you ever wonder AM I REALLY ME? Are those petty things I call myself really the ME that's going to last?
 
I'm with you Josepina,

We're souls who create body. We're manifastation of are soul. We not getting souls we're one.
Contrary IMHO we're hazed and lost here, we don't even know when we confronted with a ocasionally glimps with are whole entity unless we willing to open are awareness of are true being. We get cut most of the time with are ego, the judgement, the different theories, the materialistic things to collect, the anger, the pay-back time, the everyday hussle, and when the rare ocasion arise and something unexpected happen what should be the clear warning look inside for the answer we dismiss the idea that was just thoughts, because we trained to accept the very limited perception of the realities.
Eventually when we will be able to keep are multidimensional sprit together HERE then we'll be able to get a whole view THERE and then will be no more use for experience human excistences, and move on to discover many others.
Although that is true we're not able to get a complite view what really happen in the other dimensions and between lives there is much more to discover then we think of, consciously while we here if we really care enough to find out.
 
Josefina and Dorika,

I think there's a good possibility that your theory is true. There are times when that's really the way it feels to me too.

But for now, until I figure out the ultimate mystery and learn all the answers I like to keep an open mind about ALL the possibilities. If I start believing any one theory too soon I will become so stuck on that theory that I won't recognize the truth when it's right in front of my face.

I also like the theory that we are members of some super-advanced race of beings and that what we call "reality" is just a super-advanced video game we play because life in our super-advanced civilization is just so BORING! In that case the only "purpose" to life is to enjoy the game.

Ultimately, what I truely believe is that when we do find the answer it will be quite different from what we were expecting.
 
My theory on reincarnation is that you choose if, when, how you will come back, and who you will come back as. Each time you come back, you have come to learn some valuable lesson or to correct something that you may have done in a past life. Some Souls have been through this process many times, others are more selective. I also feel that for the most part many people start off knowing much of what happened in their past but as we grow older we forget. My children talk about their other parents and things they did and where they lived all the time but I see them losing this assureaty as they grow older. My wife and I have always encouraged them to talk about who they were as much as they are willing. I always wonder how much more I would remember if I had had the same encouragement when I was a child.

------------------
If all the World's a stage, and we are merely players. Who wrote the blasted script???
 
" If I start believing any one theory too soon I will become so stuck on that theory that I won't recognize the truth when it's right in front of my face"

That is the reason why the only right thing to do is consciously explore and listen to your inner selves YOU ALREADY KNOW THE ANSERS!!!


DarkElf,

"I always wonder how much more I would remember if I had had the same encouragement when I was a child."
Probably much much more..but again IMHO there is no doubt the reincarnation subject is the most fascinating aspect of are many lives, but I believe to even getting close to understand we really have to go much deeper to the question who we really are, what we doing here and where we going from here. Actually in my experiences if we searching for that, and able to KNOW FOR SURE we're more then a physical body, none of are pastlives in the physical seems to be that important. JUST ON ANOTHER EXPERIENCE.
Are whole entity focus on something else.
 
It may be possible that we have spirit guides who arrange for our lifes circumstances so we may continue past relationships or resolve past conflicts. I know I have met people who I instinctively like or dislike without really knowing anything about them. With six billion people on the planet, I don't really think that could be by chance!
 
fiziwig, I agree totally with your idea, and it is exactly what I, too, have concluded after ten years of studying metaphysics.

It makes a lot of sense. The only thing that may need some work in this idea is the concept that spirits/souls will dissipate if not reincarnated after so many years of Earth-time. That has always puzzled me... how much time can elapse while a spirit remains discarnate, or refuses to reincarnate, before that stable consciousness reincarnates again? Some reports of "ghosts" in period clothing suggest that these spirits are in this "dreaming" state of attachment to their (to them) most recent personality for a hundred and fifty years or more!

But your idea is very sound. As we learn more we will come closer to answering these great questions.
 
Although I would prefer it if Josefina's theory were true, fiziwig's theory seems to comport more with what I've experienced of reality. If this life is a dream, it is a darned consistent, realistic and solid one.

And from what I've seen and read of purported messages from the other side, I'm inclined to agree with fiziwig's statement to the effect that any persons on "the other side" don't really have all the answers.

Thanks for the topic, fiz!
 
One thing that has always bothered me and that really does require a good explanation to be believable is the idea that at some deeper level we already know everything.

If our "higher self" already knows everything, then it makes no sense to say that we reincarnate to learn. What's to learn if we already know it all? So if our soul knows everything the only reason we can possibly have for being here is for entertainment. We reincarnate just for the fun of it. And that makes the whole spiritual growth thing nothing more than a game we play just for fun.

But if we do reincarnate to learn and grow then it follows that we do NOT know everything already. You just can't have it both ways. And if we do not know everything already then our soul, between lives, will not know everything either. Otherwise we would not have to come back to learn some more. And from that it follows that souls on the other side don't know everything either.

Granted some more advanced souls know a lot more than we do, but they still don't know everything.

So the logical seems to me to be inescapable: If we know everything then spiritual pursuits are a sham, and if we don't know everything then neither does any other soul.

Remember the scene in "What Dreams May Come" where Robin Williams, newly arrived in "heaven" asks "where is God in all of this" and Cuba Gooding answers, basically, with "I don't know." That must be how it is. Otherwise all human life is just playing a game with ourselves while we pretend not to know it all.
 
Exactly! Otherwise it really doesn't make sense. Who hasn't felt the sadness of their soul? Who hasn't known on some level the longing of our "higher self?" If "higher beings" can experience joy, they surely experience joy's opposite. And if its true that we first created our reality here by way of "thought" then we are projecting what has first been created in "heaven" so to speak.

------------------
"When the soul wishes to experience something she throws an image of the experience out before her and enters into her own image." Meister Eckhart
 
2 ideas...

One of the most interesting questions to me is WHAT ARE THE BORDERS OF ONE SPIRIT? I think that spirits go trough every living form, starting from rocks. But if we look a mountain, then how many spirits does it contain?

This is certainly a question I can't answer!

I've red a lot from Carlos Castaneda, who didn't take reincarnation for real. He claimes that he had a teacher (don Juan), with whom he had many adventures of knowledge. One of his experiences was that he jumped from a cliff and totally went to pieces during the jump (which ended in an other place and time). He knew he was many. All his cells seemed to have their own awareness.

***

Personally I think:

1st there was that which cannot be talked. "Tao", if you like. Then It projected itself into existence, and that is God.

"God", THE ONE, contains every one of us, and only It could know everything. God is a puzzle. We are pieces of It. No piece could EVER know so much as the whole picture knows! Every piece is a single spirit.

A spirit makes a projection from itself, and the result is personal soul. That soul does all the hard part, trying to harvest experiences and knowledge. For that it needs ego and body.

Some say that this soul has to grow so big that it can stand equal to the spirit which makes it alive. After that has happened soul merges with spirit and lives in body aren't needed anymore. - Until that time that God has been put together, has rested in Tao, and maby gone to pieces ones more.

How could we know everything? Why would it be needed, when even God is in pieces?
 
I don't really know where I fall in with these interesting theories but I did notice fiziwig's "this or that" reaction.

Isn't it possible that, on a deeper level" we know far more but not necessarily "everything"? We may use introspection to keep us on track but not to provide all the answers.

It's not all black and white, let in the gray matter!

I think we are the Martians who, having mastered genetic engineering, created life on Earth and then transferred their souls here to escape their planet which was dying (due in no small part to their toxic civilization). Of course, the Martians needed to reduce thier essence into a form that could transferred across space and so came up with the handy "soul" form and discovered that they could maintain their soul over time by picking up a new body at the "recycling center" when they wore one out.

Of course only the very wealthy could afford to utilize the new technology and the rest perished when Mars "died". Or did they?

I'm just funnin' ya here...or am I?
 
peterb,

Maybe your funnin' us. Maybe you're not.

But I've noticed one thing that all humans seem to have in common, and that seems to go back as far as history can trace it. We humans are game players. If not moving pieces on a chess board we are still playing games continuously.

What goes on in the world of the "high society" among people born so rich they never have to work a day in their lives? They play games. Elaborate social games where you are awarded points for knowing which fork to use and which designer dress to wear. Where you can loose points for saying the wrong thing, wearing the wrong clothes or associating with the wrong people.

The point of the game seems to be to amass enough points to get invited to all the right parties and be seen in the company of all the right people.

And then there's the game played in monastaries of every faith. This is the game where you play for "holiness points", and the ultimate grand prize is sainthood or recognition as a "master".

Then there's the Wall Street game where points are measured in dollars, marks, and yen.

Maybe this is a big clue to our ultimate nature. We are highly evolved beings whose "real" existence in some realm of unimaginable perfection is so incredibly BORING that we invented this elaborate multi-player game called "being human." In this game we enter into this manufactured earthly "reality" and adopt the role of an imaginary creature called a human being. In order to make the game fun, of course, we must completely forget our true identity while we are immersed in the game.

Naturally if this is true then "spiritual growth" is just another game within the game and has no real purpose other than to entertain us. Of course if you're really serious about playing the "spiritual growth" game then the last thing you want is to be reminded that it's only a game. That would be like somebody tapping you on the shoulder every few minutes while you watched a really good movie to say "Hey! This is only a movie." Who wants to be reminded of that when they're enjoying the movie? Not me!

Frankly the theory that we already know everything and human incarnation is just a game we are playing is probably the most consistent and believable theory of all.
 
So you're saying that like the rich man/beggar we are drunk and irresponsible?

It's a cute story but it doesn't really answer the question. You said "We just don't remember, for whatever reason." But what IS the reason? There must be a pretty darn good reason for us to go from knowing everything to knowing nothing! What is that reason?

If one is interested in really digging for the truth it does not suffice to say "for whatever reason." That simply replaces one mystery with another and answers nothing.

What are the alternatives?

1. We forgot deliberatly and of our own free will (so that we can enjoy the game?)

2. That knowledge was stripped from us against our will ...

2a. ... by some superior being for some undisclosed reason, or

2b. ... by some unfortunate accident, or

2c. ... because that knowledge is inaccesable to us while in human form. (why?)

3. We didn't have that knowledge to begin with.

Please feel free to suggest any alternatives I may have overlooked.

If truth is our goal we must stop being mushy and fuzzy in our examination of possibilities and start applying the harsh light of reason to the various claims and theories. Otherwise we really ARE just playing a game of words and fantasies. And while fantasies may be comforting I can't believe that they bring us any closer to the truth.
 
Quotes:

"Frankly the theory that we already know everything and human incarnation is just a game we are playing is probably the most consistent and believable theory of all."

"We forgot deliberatly and of our own free will (so that we can enjoy the game?)"

This resonates with me a lot. It also happens to be the the explanation given in Vedanta. The Samskrit word that is used to describe what you call game, is 'leela', generally translated into English as sport or as you put it, game.

Kris
 
"We reincarnate just for the fun of it. And that makes the whole spiritual growth thing nothing more than a game we play just for fun." fiziwig


So...are we having fun yet?
 
Ratislav,

I asked "what is the reason we forget" and you replied "What difference does it make?"

My goal is to discover the truth, and to understand it. The quest for truth begins with asking the right questions. If I didn't care about learning the truth then it would make no difference at all. But since I do care about discovering the truth it makes all the difference in the world.

This does not mean that it makes any difference to everybody, only to those of us who are searching for the truth by exploring plausible theories. I'm not willing to dismiss the hard question with a wave of the hand. It's in my nature to explore them and to try to find answers. If a certain theory suggests questions then those questions must be asked. If a certain theory provides answers that don't make sense then that theory has to be seriously doubted.

That's why it makes a difference.

You also said: "When we finally realize (remember) it, we will know, or at least be able to find out if we care." But if we don't already know everything then the answers will not just be served up to us on a silver platter. We will have to work to find the answers. This is my work, to ask questions and to find answers. Let others stand by passivly waiting for the answers to be dropped into their laps. But that's not my style.

This is not meant to be in any way a judgemntal statement. Some people get in their car every day and drive to work quite contented. If asked how the car engine works they might legitimately answer "what difference does it make?" So they're not interested in how engines work. That's fine. But don't criticize the guy who IS interested in how engines work. His work is important too. And they day may come when you're engine doesn't work and you'll need his services. Then you'll be glad that somebody cared about things that you don't care about.
 
Very interesting discussion. I agree, we need to ask the right questions in order to discover the truth.

Here's some questions that may help:

1. Most of us do forget our past lives, but what's different about the few cases where people remember their past lives? Understanding these exceptions to the "forget" rule may help us understand how the whole mechanism works.

2. There are more people on the earth than in the past, so where did al the "new" souls come from?

3. Is there any known way to help us remember our past lives?

4. Is this all just a natural process without the need for a master-contoller God or spiritual bueracracy? Or is this whole system setup by someone for some grand purpose?

5. In rare cases people remember their past lives, but are there any cases where people remember the time BETWEEN lives?

6. How does reincarnation fit in with what people experience as "near death experiences"? Is there any contradiction between what is believed about reincarnation and what people experience at death?

7. Are there any cases where the reincarnated person was born before their previous life died? If so, this wouldn't this add a twist to the flow of reincarnation? I'm not familiar enough with the research to know if such cases exist, but it is an interesting posibility.

8. Are we constant in our sex and race between lives? Any evidence indicate one way or the other?

9. What are the basic commonalities between all the documented cases of reincarnation? Wouldn't that be a good place to start for things we can most accurately know occur in this process?

10. When do you think the moment of reincarnation occurs? Is it before or during conception? The strongest physical evidence to reincarnation are these deformed babies who's wounds match a previous life. Would this suggest that the soul influences the formation of the body, or is there another likely explanation?

And finally, I want to share my own experiences regarding this. I do not recall any past life, but I do remember strong feelings from when I was a baby. I am 33 now, but I still remember scenes from being in a crib as a baby. I have confirmed my remembered descriptions of the crib, curtains and playthings I remember with my mother.

Anyway, along with remembering laying in the crib as a baby, I also remember strong feelings of excitement for being alive. I distinctly remember thinking I had waited a long to be born and that I was very relieved to finally be here.

I also remember feeling great aprehension as to what the world was like and that it felt like it had changed from something else that I have never been able to remember.
 
My thoughts to some of your questions:

1. what's different about the few cases where people remember their past lives?

I remember because the shock of horror I got from witnessing my loved one been burned alive was so devastating that I couldn't forget.

2. There are more people on the earth than in the past, so where did al the "new" souls come from?

From the storage room. I often wonder why is this question so popular. Do you think that the physical level is the only place to be???

4. Is this all just a natural process without the need for a master-contoller God or spiritual bueracracy? Or is this whole system setup by someone for some grand purpose?

I think that natural processes are part of God. Gos is us.

5. In rare cases people remember their past lives, but are there any cases where people remember the time BETWEEN lives?

My partner remembers one picture.

6. How does reincarnation fit in with what people experience as "near death experiences"? Is there any contradiction between what is believed about reincarnation and what people experience at death?

Why should there be? If one didn't remember his past lives when he was alive, why would he remember just because he has now died? I think personality goes a little bit further than physical life. Eventually it still vanishes, though.

8. Are we constant in our sex and race between lives?

The same thing: it last for some time, then it falls away because when we start to be more and more just A SPIRIT we realize we aren't the same as the past body was.

10. When do you think the moment of reincarnation occurs?

I think when ever, but mostly when one borns. Some say that they have entered a body of adult, which has no it's original spirit anymore.
 
Answer this, anyone?

Can God Almighty and all-powerfull create such a huge and heavy stone, that even "S/He" can't lift it up?
 
Deconstructor:

Interesting questions. Here are a few tentative answers to some of them:

2. "There are more souls..." In his book "Old Souls" skeptical reporter Tom Shroder asked several experts for estimates of past historical and prehistorical population figures. The average he came up with is there have been enough people born and died to allow for each person alive today to have had 6 previous incarnations.

5. Dr. Stevenson reports on a number of cases of children who remember past lives in enough detail to be verified who have also remembered the time in between lives, including remembering the process of picking a new set of parents.

6. There seems to be a remarkable amount of consisteancy between reports from NDE's, reports from children who claim to remember between life states, and the "Bardos" in the Tibentan Book of the Dead (Bardo Thodol). ("Bardo", pronounced "Pardo" in Tibetan, means "gap" or "space".)

7. I have never read of any cases of reincarnation occuring in anything other than normal chronological sequence. Of course this does not mean that such cases do not exist.

8. Numerous cases in Dr. Stevenson's collection of 2,000 or 3,000 cases involve changes in race and sex.

9. The most consistant common factor in Dr. Stevenson's cases is that children between the ages of 4 or 5 to 11 or 12 recall past lives which were cut short in some violent way. Perhaps the trauma of premature death aids in the recall of a past life. Other of his cases, however, involve past lives lived to a ripe old age, so the rule is not universal.

10. Again, according to Dr. Stevenson's cases, it apparently can occur at any stage. Some children report having choosen their parents before conception and then "hanging around" in "spirit form" waiting to be born. In a few cases children report not entering the new body until a few days AFTER birth. In one very unusual case (the case of Jasbir pp34 in "20 Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation", Univ. of Virginia Press) a 22 year old man in India named Sobha died (1954) at about the same time as a small boy named Jasbir. Jasbir suddenly, and miraculously came back to life a few hours after he had been pronounced dead. Only Jasbir now claimed to be Sobha and was quite upset about being trapped in a little boy's body. Apparently Jasbir's souls choose to move on and Sobha's soul, unable to return to it's original, damaged body, found another body that was still able to be revived.

Re; your memory from infancy: very interesting! Very similar to my memory, while laying in the crib, of looking at my hands and thinking "How strange it is to be small again". I, too, have no specific memories of past lives, only the life-long conviction that I have lived past lives.

That and a strong affinity for things Japanese, and things Tibetan.
 
Deconstructor.

Good questions. A lot of these have been asked and answered so many times that I thought I'd just throw out quick answers. I'm not claiming these answers are the definitive gospel truth; I'm just saying that, based on extensive reading, these answers seem to me to be the consensus among reincarnationists. I see that fiziwig has already answered some of your questions while I was writing this, but I'll post anyway.


1. One common difference: a violent death (although not always).

2. "There are more people on the earth than in the past...."
Not necessarily than in the entire past.

"...where did all the "new" souls come from?"
Where did all the old souls come from?

3. "Is there any known way to help us remember our past lives?" Yes, many, hypnosis for example.

4. Not according to those who remember between lives.

5. "In rare cases people remember their past lives..."
Maybe not as rare as you think.
"... are there any cases where people remember the time BETWEEN lives?" Yes, many.

6. Yes. No.

7. I don't recall any. Yes.

8. No. Yes.

9. Death and rebirth. You lost me.

10. After conception. Yes. Maybe.
 
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