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How do the various religions of the world view reincarnation?

A go nowhere tangent on todays religions and why reincarnation is Progressive. A tinge of hope.

I truly believe today's warring ideals are civic nationalism vs globalism. In my eyes, I understand a globalist faction to consist of both democratic and communistic nations- of elitists and corporate conglomerates. I wonder if those who would see our world united through a technocratic revolution believe in reincarnation. I have to guess they surely do not and like to think if reincarnation were a more thoughtful or openly accepted idea that perhaps society would operate differently than what it does today- a society built around lifting each other up to advance our collective intelligence instead of catering to an overly indulgent state and bombarding the masses with nonsensical advertisements/programming. Our lust for profit means history repeats itself.

Instead of sharing life-extending or new technologies they are hoarded for a few and eventually, commercialized(usually in 10 years time). Our direction with technology is another thing to consider- whether it is limiting consciousness or expanding it. As the turning of the age carries on, I think civic nationalism is the globally uniting ideal(modern religious movement) and individuals who accept the idea of reincarnation work with the belief that they may one day be born in a better world. Or at the very least, that it might cultivate a mindful attitude. I believe whatever the religion, there is a Spirit- an unseen intelligence capable of communicating with you through out the ages. Whether we are an enslaved society or a progressive one, it's places like this that make the idea of being born again commonplace and secure the globally uniting ideals of today.

.... ???
 
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SeaAndSky said:
Hi Rod,

You sound like you may be, like me, the rarest of things in this state: a native born Floridian. :cool: This is not to say that people are not born elsewhere with "sand in their sandals" and finally realize they're home when they get here, so I don't make too much of this. However, I do wish I could "turn off the tap" as the natural beauty of Florida is being (and mostly has been) destroyed. The endless undeveloped beaches stretching from horizon to horizon are only a memory for us old-timers. The pristine inland springs (that most visitors don't know about) are also being developed, but (thankfully) most are now being made into state parks--which is better than the alternative. I could go on, but you already know what I am talking about (as does Totoro--another Floridian).

Anyhow, back to the topic at hand. I am familiar with Entheogens from a variety of experiences I could detail, though not from personal use. I will spare you the details for the moment. However, I do realize their possible importance in the shaping of human history/culture/religion from my own studies as well. Amanita was probably the mushroom of choice in Northern Europe and may have been used to some extent by the Vikings (who apparently used another Entheogen to fuel their Berserkers), but in my own researches I was not able to find anything definitive in terms of the use of Amanita or other Entheogens by the Celts. However, the use of our native North American Entheogens to "open the gates of perception" is not unusual in either the past or the present. Actually, speaking of Entheogens, we have an Ayahuasca church in Gainesville that I heard about in conversations with an acquaintance that attended there, though I think they import their ingredients from S. America. They also remained pretty much in stealth mode the last time I checked, even though Ayahuasca church use has already been through the courts and like Peyote in the Native American Church has a religious exemption for that type of use. So, this is an interesting topic for me, and I would be very interested in your Summation. Thanks!

Cordially,
S&S
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I remember the Florida of my childhood, when the beaches were two-hundred yards wide, white as sugar, and empty of people. The inland was tropical and lush, dotted with small towns. I remember driving down the West coast and seeing the ocean almost the entire way. All gone, now. I was a police officer in South Florida so I have a lot more bad memories than you probably do. I left that state in 2000, never looking back. I have only journeyed with entheogens in the 2002-2003 time frame. That seemed to be all I was called to do...sort of open the doorway and start the process of ridding myself of the old, useless, fossilized ego-structures to make room for the new me. Kind of harrowing...lots of fear and confusion. And I realized, then, that as an European descended person I had no one to turn to for this ordeal. All of our Wise Men and Wise Women were murdered a thousand years ago leaving us with nothing but the dominant religion...which I had totally rejected. It's difficult to find a path on your own, but somehow I did.
 
Hi Rod,

It's good to hear from you! In terms of your comments on the state of your childhood, it is not all gone. There is still beauty to be found here, and peace in the deep places of the Florida "out back"--hanging moss on mighty oaks interspersed with sable palms with, hopefully, a spring or creek flowing through. Old Florida, the kind of scenes and places that Marjorie Kinnan Rawlings wrote about in "The Yearling" and other books. But it is definitely not what it was.

BTW--I watched the video regarding the end time ideas and prophecies of both Celts and Vikings. They do have some things in common, but mostly just the conviction that the end would be preceded by just about everything going wrong. This is something they share with the Abrahamic faiths. I was also already familiar with the prophecy of the Morrigan:

167. She also prophesied the end of the world, foretelling every evil that would occur then, and every disease and every vengeance; and she chanted the following poem:

"I shall not see a world
Which will be dear to me:
Summer without blossoms,
Cattle will be without milk,
Women without modesty,
Men without valor.
Conquests without a king . . .
Woods without mast.
Sea without produce. . . .
False judgements of old men.
False precedents of lawyers,
Every man a betrayer.
Every son a reaver.
The son will go to the bed of his father,
The father will go to the bed of his son.
Each his brother's brother-in-law.
He will not seek any woman outside his house. . . .
An evil time,
Son will deceive his father,
Daughter will deceive . . ."

https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/cmt/cmteng.htm

We are not there yet, but much of the foregoing is beginning to happen in varying degrees. The most striking to me are the verses I have underlined: "Women without modesty, Men without valor." Very sadly from my perspective, this seems to have been a very prominent part of the last 50 years or so. (Others may have a different opinion on these changes). Interestingly, I saw a more recent translation that rendered the first clause as "Women without conscience . . . " which is also harsh and must also be possible in terms of the original language. Still, it is definitely a bit less laden with implications that the modern era would reject.

In terms of the religion you have rejected, remember not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Revelation (the incursion of the divine into human affairs and consciousness) tends to be swallowed up and obscured by the purveyors of organized religion. After awhile, it becomes impossible to see what the light was that shone and caused people to worship in awe and wonder. It is often best to dwell on the original revelation and your own present experiences with the source of those revelations rather than paying too much attention to what humans have built around them. Humans, who are tainted with self-interest and prejudice, often shape a structure that is far different from what the founder(s) had in mind. Go back to the foundations.

Cordially,
S&S
 
I find the Ragnarok and other prophecies to be very relevant. However, I don't believe them to be truly "prophecies". I think there have been many cycles of mankind, through which we, as humans, have passed through. These cycles were very similar, though not identical, with our current one. The Voluspa, Morrigan and others are, to my mind, retelling the Folk memories of these past cycles. They are incredibly accurate because human nature hasn't changed, only the details.

Concur, return to the organic spirituality of our natural ancestors. Reverence for Nature...recognize the Divinity of the Earth and Universe...accept and participate in Life and the Evolution of our Folk. I think reincarnation-type phenomena are definitely part of that.

Thor and Freyr's Blessings,
Rod
 
Hi Rod,

I do not see cycles except in the way that a spiral is cyclic. Too much changes. However, Great civilizations rise and fall, typically following the same pattern. If they are allowed to run the cycle through, there is a beginning that is typified by virtue/frugality without much wealth/power, then virtue/frugality with wealth/power, then power/wealth without frugality/virtue, finally lack of virtue, frugality, wealth and power. Of course, a more powerful civilization and sometimes a social revolution can interrupt the cycle, but the endless pattern of the rising concentration of wealth in the hands of a few, imperial overreach, oppression, decadence and debauchery that brought down Rome and other great powers seems to be built into the DNA of civilizations to some degree. The poem of the Morrigan is, to me, both a description of the end of this process and the final end of the time of the gods.

In terms of the cycle of civilizations, it wearies me. I feel like I have seen and experienced this collapse too often over the course of time. Over and over again, humankind builds something greater than what existed before and then destroys it or pollutes it with so much greed, vice and injustice that it dies in its own poisons.

In terms of the bigger picture, I appreciate your wish that I be blessed by your gods, but doubt that they will honor this. This is not because I don't believe in them. I very much believe in the existence of the ancient gods, and respect them. However, I also believe that their role is ended, though there may be a time of resurgence preceding a great final battle which apparently lies ahead. This final battle is, I believe, what the tales of both the Celts and Vikings speak to. In the meantime many in the current era respond to their call, drawn I think by ancient memories and feelings as well as a desire to recover what has been lost in the modern world.

I also feel the draw, so this is something we share in common. Likewise, a desire to: "return to the organic spirituality of our natural ancestors." Likewise, I believe that reverence for Nature and the natural world is part of this. Finally, I agree--as a Christian--that: "reincarnation-type phenomena are definitely part of that." ;)

Cordially,
S&S

PS--Another interesting prediction in the poem of the Morrigan: Conquests without a king . . . . The general decline of "Real" Monarchy as a form of government since 1900 is a strong departure from the past in the modern era. A few real monarchs linger as do a few figure-head monarchs, but monarchy in the modern era (unlike in past eras) is no longer the "default" position and almost universal form of government. Likewise, the strong movements towards conquest in the modern era--Communism, Fascism, and Islamism proceed based on ideologies rather than the ambitions of a King. :cool:
 
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I suggest reading "The Fourth Turning" for a closer look at short-term cycles.

Monarchy declined? I don't think so. A close look at the world shows all the old Royal family lines and wealth are still here, directing things. Just not above water, all on the down-low. Communism and Islam are both in thrall to bankers, financed by huge sums of money from the same old crowd. The world is a show, a production.

Of late, I am looking closely at Gnosticism as an explanation of much of the world's problems...human evil, corruption, etc.
 
How I feel about it is that I am pretty done with so much and just want to move on be it to some other world to actually live to enjoy life than going through the blender that is the human experience waiting for the next big scare ect. Sure there had been some great times mixed in it all but having go down with the ship both literally and figuratively is exhausting as many are coming to realize with how things have been for the past two years. Anyway I am looking forward to something fresh with different kinds of personalities and minds than what there is around to experience these days but more so culture that is actually exciting unlike the depression fuel we all make do with. Deep down I do feel that I've been though many such places before but this world has to be one of the very worst.
 
Hi Rod,

I already have a copy of the Fourth Turning, but haven't been able to make myself read it so far, though I have a general idea of the underlying theories involved. I also have gotten so I can seldom make myself read the news (I used to be a "news hound"), though I do look at the headlines from time-to-time. In the latter case, I think it is because the news has been so bad for so long that I seek to avoid the needless frustration involved in checking once again only to find the same idiots and imbecility hard at work making bad situations worse. Something similar is probably behind my hesitation to read The Fourth Turning. I am actually desperate for some seriously good news and overall improvement that doesn't fade like a mist after a few days, weeks or months. If I believed I would find this in The Fourth Turning, I would probably finish it in a few days.

That is an interesting idea in re the "puppet masters" behind the scenes being the same either way. I certainly can't argue the point, at least not without doing a good deal more research. Still, the "form" has changed, even if those behind the scenes pulling the strings have not.

Many seem to be attracted towards Gnosticism these days, and it holds a lot of attraction for me in the fairly simplified form it took among the Cathars (though I also have problems with some of their beliefs). In its more ancient forms I tend to find the complex cosmologies and overly complicated Gobbledy-goop of various celestial hierarchies and entities to be off-putting. However, in either form I find that the downgrading of the material and natural world that is characteristic of Gnosticism is problematic for me and doesn't fit into the idea of becoming closer to nature that we have been discussing. Still, it has its points.

Cordially,
S&S
 
Hi TABA,

I understand the reasons you would like to go elsewhere, but I'm just not sure that is as easy as you seem to think. After all, if it was that easy, why would you have chosen to come back here. Your last lifetime was the pits. I'm wondering why you would even return here if you could have avoided it?

That sounds a bit critical for some reason, though I don't mean it that way. I'm just thinking that most of us would also be dodging this place if it was all that easy to go someplace that was nicer. Ergo, it must not be that easy. o_O

Cordially,
S&S
 
SeaAndSky said:
Hi TABA,

I understand the reasons you would like to go elsewhere, but I'm just not sure that is as easy as you seem to think. After all, if it was that easy, why would you have chosen to come back here. Your last lifetime was the pits. I'm wondering why you would even return here if you could have avoided it?

That sounds a bit critical for some reason, though I don't mean it that way. I'm just thinking that most of us would also be dodging this place if it was all that easy to go someplace that was nicer. Ergo, it must not be that easy. o_O

Cordially,
S&S
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Honestly I don't care anymore and just done, why even bother anymore when the current civilization has reached the EOL phase and everything is rapidly failing. I haven't been happy with the types of personalities that are common to this place in many years and frankly don't fit in this "culture" much at all. If you like this world that is find but don't expect me to and don't even try to hammer me into whatever mold there is. The only thing being dodged is being in this hold for tens of thousands of years more with pointless cycles of wars and destruction.
 
Hi TABA,

I'm hoping you're not talking about me when you say: "If you like this world that is find but don't expect me to and don't even try to hammer me into whatever mold there is." That is definitely not my intention. :eek: I'm just observing that, from what I can tell about people and living things in general, they seek to move from less favorable environments to more favorable environments--when they can o_O. This world is filling up fast. I.e., the net movement is towards rather than away from this place. This leads me to think that some or all of the following three things are true: (1) this is a more favorable environment than the alternatives; (2) people have little or no choice in the question of whether they come here or not; or (3) it may be all the things you list, but we find it "favorable" for other reasons. The last leads into the beneficial for "growth" type explanations, which you have heard numerous times and I will not repeat.

Cordially,
S&S
 
Hi, everybody:

Frankly, I just don't believe, paraphrasing Leibniz, that ours is the worst of all possible worlds.

Worse (!) still, I believe that in most cases it's the problem of that who criticizes, than that of the world itself.

I suspect such a criticizer would criticize any other world he might happen to live in - it looks more like an inner problem of the criticizer himself/herself.

IMHO.

Best regards.

https://spaceplace.nasa.gov/sun-compare/en/
 
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I would think that everyone who has ever concluded that reincarnation-type experiences do indeed occur has also came to a contradictory feeling towards it...1. I want to have a great next-life, with everything I never had in this life...and 2. I don't want to come back into a worse world. I want to stop reincarnating and go to something better.

I could argue that the Norse Vallhalla was a metaphor for overcoming oneself and getting off the re-birth merry-go-round.
 
Rod Turner said:
I would think that everyone who has ever concluded that reincarnation-type experiences do indeed occur has also came to a contradictory feeling towards it...1. I want to have a great next-life, with everything I never had in this life...and 2. I don't want to come back into a worse world. I want to stop reincarnating and go to something better.

I could argue that the Norse Vallhalla was a metaphor for overcoming oneself and getting off the re-birth merry-go-round.
Click to expand...

Oh, I've heard somewhere that on Betelgeuse-V the perspectives for career-growth in their civilization of intelligent mushrooms are much higher than here on Earth.

Now I only want to re-incarnate there next time...

Regards.
 
Hi Cyrus/Rod,

It seems that most religions that believe in reincarnation (outside of the type of default religious beliefs found in tribal cultures), tend to be based on getting off the "merry-go-round"--with the idea that there is something better than the constant cycle of reincarnation (on this planet or elsewhere). So, nothing new about that. However, that is only the beginning of the debate, including how it can be accomplished and if it can be accomplished at all. As noted above, the fact that most seem to return indicates to me that it is either not easy or not desirable to most (if it is possible at all) to get off this particular carousel.

Cordially,
S&S

PS--It's hard to judge what life would be like as an intelligent mushroom. For all I know, they may live forever in bliss slowly dissolving and living off the detritus falling from the "trees" (or whatever) on Betelgeuse V. So, if karma is involved, we may only get to go there if our karma is very, very good. ;) However, I can't say that the prospect appeals to me. :cool:
 
Hi Rod,

BTW--As per your posts 27 and 29 on the prior page, I'm still hoping for more on your conversion experience(s) sometime. :)

Cordially,
S&S
 
SeaAndSky said:
Hi Rod,

BTW--As per your posts 27 and 29 on the prior page, I'm still hoping for more on your conversion experience(s) sometime. :)

Cordially,
S&S
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In 2000 I moved to Las Vegas from Florida. Looking back I now have to admit that I had a nervous breakdown while at my last police department. I moved to Vegas to rebuild myself. I felt irresistibly attracted to Psilocybin mushrooms and entheogenic shamanism and so in 2002 I took vacation in Amsterdam and had my first experience with that sacrament. This opened the door a bit and motivated me to embark on a year-long series of experiences with mushrooms. This had the effect of opening the door widely and I went into spiritual crisis. A pretty rough time for anyone. All of my old fossilized ego-self crumbled and I found myself with no anchor or worldview. There was just nobody to turn to and I had to find my own way out. I had two dreams, one of Odin and one of the goddess Kali. These seemed to be the turning point and I began to put myself back together. Coming out of crisis took a couple of years. I persisted, because I knew I had more to do in this life. I got married in Vegas and we began a whole new life together.
Spiritual crisis is hard. As I found out, we of European descent have no one to turn to. Our Wise Men and Wise Women were all murdered a thousand years ago. Such crisis is also necessary for growth. But it ain't easy! ;)
 
Hi Rod,

Thanks for the info. I'd love to know more the content of those two dreams, but I'm not going to pry. So, please feel free to elaborate by PM or post as it suits you best (if it suits you at all ;)). Likewise, with regard to your last paragraph, though I would definitely advise PM for that.

However, in terms of the two dreams, they do seem to present an unusual combination of deities. Obviously not impossible, and both fall under the larger Indo-European umbrella, but I seldom think of Kali and Odin together. Was a connection revealed here?

Cordially,
S&S
 
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I totally concur that's a strange combination of Divine Beings!
The first dream was of Kali, wreathed in fire. I heard her clearly say "Only evil need fear me". Since I had never pursued any contact with Her I was a little confused. But the dream was comforting as I was struggling with guilt from past actions. She had the effect of making me understand that I was not lost or doomed.
The second dream, I was walking in a space and saw a male figure on the ground, obviously in great distress. I lifted his head up to me and said "Listen, I am Odin. I am Odin" over and over. This dream also comforted me.
 
Hi Rod,

I can understand how the first dream would be of comfort, but the meaning of the second dream and how it was comforting to you is not clear to me. I know that is my problem (not yours), but if you could explain a bit more about that one . . . .

Cordially,
S&S

PS--I tried to send you a PM on your post #51, but it wouldn't go through. I'm not sure why.
 
In the dream I felt tremendous compassion for the male figure. I wanted to comfort him. The figure was actually myself and I was channeling my higher self as I identified myself as "Odin". I judge a dream by how I feel and this made me feel better.
 
Hi Rod,

I've spent a bit of time looking into Odinism since you mentioned it. I've periodically been very interested in the mythology and culture of both the Norse and Celtic peoples (being descended from both). However, I haven't previously spent much time delving into the beliefs and movements of the modern followers of the Northern or Celtic Pantheons.

In a way, I'm not surprised by their intensity and ardor. People are searching for something that has seemingly been lost in the modern world, and are drawn back towards what they feel like are their ancient ancestral roots as well as towards what they imagine to have been a more noble and virtuous simplicity in the past. They are also increasingly disgusted by the direction of Western culture as well as the increasing alienation from nature that accompanies its technological advances.

All of these things resonate with me. However, overall the movements involved just makes me thoughtful rather than motivated to join in. In a way I wish I could, and I hope they will provide a refuge for those who will accept no other, but aside from other differences I am a follower of Christ--not Odin. Also, for me, their presence is more of an indication that the disparate elements making up our Western societies will increasingly be taking to the lifeboats. Choosing the ones they consider to be best suited to them, and abandoning what increasingly seems to be a sinking and disintegrating culture and civilization. It is a sad thought.

Cordially,
S&S
 
The Gods awaken in whom They will. I never try to convert, because it's not up to me. As was said of Mithra "Many roads thou hast fashioned, all of them lead to the Light".
 
Hi Rod,

As noted before, I accept the concept of cycles as part of the bigger story, but the bigger story has a beginning and an end for me. From the standpoint of the bigger story, I'm not sad. The good guys win, etc., though it will be a tough time. However, I'm a patriotic fool on many fronts: patriotic when it comes to my country and also patriotic when it comes to Western Civilization (though many would not accept the application of the term "patriotic" in this context). I see it as one of the greatest sources of beauty, truth, goodness and knowledge in the history of the World. The fact that neither my country nor Western Civilization is perfect in any of these qualities is raised by those who are also imperfect themselves, offered nothing better in the past, and can offer nothing better for the future IMO. I do not see the fall of either as being an advance, but the beginning of an age of chaos and darkness. As I think I remember you saying--a wolf age. This sounds rather romantic, but in practice it will be anything but that, for human wolves will feed on human wolves when they think it to their benefit. Indeed, in such an age some may be predators, but all will be prey.

Hmm. Since you grew up in Florida (though younger than I am), I have to wonder if you also had to read "Alas, Babylon" like I did while in High School?

Cordially,
S&S

PS--I also think that I have experienced such falls and the eras of the "wolf" many times in many lives. I don't think they can be romanticized, though they may have to be endured.
 
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Yes, I read "Alas, Babylon" many years ago. Great book.

"Wolf Age" is a metaphorical description of this current age used by the Volva in the Norse Eddas. I think I've already posted my opinion on this...it's not
"prophecy" per se, but Folk memories of past ages that are known to repeat in large cycles, but with details changed.

"...human wolves will feed on human wolves..." Exactly. Kin will slay kin as the human ego fragments then explodes with the darkest parts of the broken human mind predominating. Not a pretty picture but we have to remember...it's a cycle. What goes down, will come up, again.
 
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