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Am I Paying Off Karma?

W

WriteNow

New Member
Hey all. I stumbled upon this forum just a few days ago. However, I have been searching for some greater meaning all my life.

I had a hard childhood. I was abused horrifically. The mental part was worse than the physical...sitting in my room staring at the missing door knob which my parents had removed since I had "no right" to lock a door in "their" house and wondering if my stepfather would come in...ripped from my childhood home to a terrifying city...told I should have been a miscarriage and that if I complained I would be killed...living in homes crawling with filth...told by my mother that if I didnt listen to her sexual descriptions in detail (from the age of 8) she'd have "nobody to talk to" and would have to kill herself and it would be my fault, drowned in a bathtub until I had what I now think was an NDE...having my arm broken...being "the weird" kid who had escaped into her own head. There is much worse but that is probably enough.

I have worked hard all my life but have never really been able to get financially ahead...something always seems to get in the way. At 50 I am home with two special needs children and can not move out from my husband because I can't financially support myself. Lack of money has plagued me my entire life. I am on the autism spectrum and somehow always miss the right cue, situation or aspect to be making enough money to survive, though I managed it but in tiny places sleeping on the couch so my son could have the one bedroom I could afford for years when I was a single mother. But every day was terror realizing I was just one mess up from being fired and then we would starve. I can not describe that terror.

I get that money can't buy happiness or spiritual growth but lack of it can mean being in terror and at the mercy of others, every single day.

I take care of everyone. I hate to think of people being unhappy and probably overprotected my children. Maybe caring for others is my one single saving grace but is it enough considering I have scraped every day of my life like a greedy animal to survive?

Right now I have been earning about a grand a month freelance writing. That would not support a person who had no dependants at all. And I have worked like hell for it. But now my client has downsized and cut my hours in half. In terror I have been on Upwork and initially got some projects but now I am missing them for stupid, tiny reasons...it is driving me crazy.

I feel unloved, useless and I am so sick of crying over money. I work hard, I always have. I am not stupid. What is the problem? I really do feel cursed, if you will. Many times in my life I have wished I could die.

Because of this constant want for money money money I feel greedy, even though I am just trying to survive, and I hurt and am angry all the time, and I worry this means I have not learned a karmic lesson and I will have to go back and live a similar life again. I can't, I just can't, oh God the thought of living the constant torture again...

I feel I must have been a horrible person in my last life. Could that be it? There has to be some reason other people are able to support themselves and have choices yet I am in (so to speak) prison.
 
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Oh...if anyone is curious, I don't have clear images of a past life but I do have two ideas.

One is that I feel strongly I have been male and very in control and I may have put people under my thumb. In fact, even though I am very girly in many ways in my present life, in other ways I can speak very roughly, in an almost masculine way (hard for me to explain that), and I have some traditional male feelings (or they would have been in past generations, not so much now, thank God) like needing to be a practical and financial success in order to feel worthy and useful, needing to feel I am supporting others and rowing the boat, and a few other things.

Another is an image I had when I was meditating to try to discover past lives, of a skinny adolescent girl looking out a window knowing I could not go outside. I had the feeling it was because I was sick and had been for a long time. Due to the floral wallpaper, some shadowy images of the stuffed furniture, and my dress which came only to mid-calf and was floral but did not have crinolines, and two looped braids, I feel like the image may have been the early 20th century. I don't know where. There was a garden outside.
 
That is a sad story WriteNow. I'm glad to welcome you to the forum however. It sounds as though you have created a difficult lifetime for yourself, if you believe that we determine much of our challenges prior to incarnating.
WriteNow said:
I feel I must have been a horrible person in my last life. Could that be it? There has to be some reason other people are able to support themselves and have choices yet I am in prison.
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I think that a lot of us have felt that way at various points in our lives. There are several threads about karma and most indicate that karma is not retribution, more like unfinished parts of your current contract.
 
Hi WriteNow,

First -please do not assume based on karma that you deserve to be in an abusive relationship. With anyone. The following might help regarding your parents.

My Mom did a lot of regression work with people back in the early 1990's.
It was her way of sharing her gift of inner vision with others and helping them through traumatic past life memories. One of the things she did, was when she would come across an individual who was having clear memories of a past life, that included another person who was repeatedly abusive, hurtful, or manipulating -- was she helped the person to reverse the magnetic poles between themselves and the hurtful individual that repeated the offensive behavior.

For example, one woman who she worked with --whose father and brother had raped her repeatedly in this life since age two -- appeared (in several sessions with my mother) over and over again in several life times where she was again raped, and abused by these same two men.

Different time periods, different scenarios. This woman was very obese, very depressed, owned nothing personally and was in her 40's. She had come to think that --with all of her searching into New Age thought regarding Karma - that her karma must be to endure this from them -- that she must have done something terrible to them.

My mother helped her to see that she had not brought this upon herself, she was not responsible for their choices -- only hers. During her last session ..Mom had her visualize her father first....and to feel the energy pull between them, to actually see him standing in front of her; then she had her visualize reversing that energy, as if the other person was upside down and opposite of her-thereby reversing the magnet pull or releasing the bond between them. Then she did the same with the brother.

After doing this she reinforced the fact that she had choices, that she was not responsible for her father or brother, nor had she done anything wrong in any of her past lives to deserve to be raped and abused repeatedly. She helped her see that it was their choice to engage in the abuse....not hers.(Mom could of course see her past lives with her.)

The woman came out of trance state, fully energized, happy, released from the negativity, the anger, and the shame. Last my Mom heard -- she lost 100 pounds, bought a condominium, was going to school and was very happy.

As the Tibetan Buddhists suggest, -- the soul will be drawn, as a magnet, into whatever womb resonates with all its past experiences -- if a soul is not aware.

I still have a hard time with the guiding and planning sessions so many authors write about. Suggesting that we plan to be abused and we need to learn to choose differently, but not telling us how! Mom showed me how.

I did this visualization in a meditation myself, reversing the magnetic poles between my ex and myself.....it has an amazing effect, an immediate release.

May your future hold many blessings, and your load be light.
 
Wow, thanks to both of you.

I am going to try to do that reverse polarity - does the flow of energy stay the same, and the person is just reversed, or does the energy twist or what?

Thee are things I have never considered.
 
In my experience, learning what caused your current predicament offers some comfort. Under light trance, self guided or guided by somebody else, you can ask and find out that cause, which may be from one of your past lives. Then, if you conscientize what is your current life lesson to experience / learn, you can come to terms with it, and move on. After that, once the balance is reestablished, your overall life improves, becomes more serene, even happier.
 
WriteNow,

I am very sorry and saddened to hear about your circumstances. I actually have similar circumstances, where everything I do generally does not work out, and I have repeatedly, the big things in my life, they tend to always happen in a way that makes life difficult and awkward for me. My repeated efforts to build financial and career success have been set back by the most strange happenings, things seem to go out of their way to make my life difficult and to negate my hard work. I also know plenty others who work a little but are helped by extraordinary good luck in all of their major aspects of life, including: family, love, finances, appearance, and health. Some people have it all, and these people aren't necessarily those who treat others the best or work the hardest.

There is such a thing as karma, or life luck. It's hard to explain but it influences how much "good things" happen to you, or influences the results of your "hard work" in a positive or negative manner.

Have you read up about the Michael Teachings? You should Google it. They put forth a theory of soul evolution that is fairly consistent with all types of people I've met. They say that when souls first start incarnating, they go through several phases of incarnation, from baby to young to mature to old. Souls in the baby to young stages tend to get "easy lives" and luck is always on their side, they achieve a lot of financial and career success, with seemingly little effort. Souls in the mature stage pay back most of the karma incurred during the younger stages. You may be at the "mature stage". I certainly seem to be there right now, hence why so many things in my life just "fall apart" despite my doing my all to keep it together and putting my 150% into everything I do.

Regardless, I want you to understand that you are not doing anything wrong, at all. The impact of karma or luck on our lives is tremendous, you may not be doing anything wrong at all but it might be worth taking a larger view of life and understand that if you are in one of the "mature" soul evolution stages, it could be nearly impossible to see good fruits of your hard work in this life or immediately, as it is specifically designed to be that way. But according to Michael Teachings, every "soul" goes through this stage, except at different time periods (aka lifetimes).

Hope this helps.
 
Hi JustinTime,

The Michael material, as you summarize it, reminds me of some of the things I gleaned from Michael Newton's books. From what I can tell from Newton's writings, the whole goal and course of soul evolution focuses on our "growth" in goodness and character. One of the things that characterizes this course, in more advanced souls, is taking on harder and harder incarnations, just as students take on harder and harder material in their course of study as they move up the educational ladder. However, the mere fact that one has taken on a life of great suffering in some form is not necessarily proof of an advanced soul. Proof of being an advanced soul is, like it would be in graduate school, the ability to handle well the tough "material" you are being asked to handle. Not just well, but very well. I can recall reading one regression where an advanced soul was describing a selfless life encouraging and caring for a severely injured/handicapped sibling. The same soul had apparently had prior lives playing the opposite role, developing the ability to endure and even find joy despite great suffering and adversity, and was now helping another soul to develop those advanced characteristics. So, from that standpoint, a very difficult life may indeed be visited on older souls more than on young souls. However, it is the ability to deal with that difficult life with grace, goodness, patience and love that is proof of an advanced soul, not the difficult life itself.

This is not necessarily contrary to what you have said. Moving from young to more mature seems to mean having to start dealing with much "harder" situations/"classes" on a more regular basis and learning to cope with them (just as it does in school). Moving from mature to advanced means not merely coping with such situations, but becoming a light shining in the darkness of such situations

Cordially,
S&S

PS--I'm definitely not there myself.
 
Another perspective, from Seth-Roberts:

"Illness and suffering are the results of the misdirection of creative energy. They are a part of the creative force,
however. They do not come from a different source than, say, health and vitality. Suffering is not good for the
soul, unless it teaches you how to stop suffering. That is its purpose."
Session 580, Page 302​
 
SeaAndSky said:
Hi JustinTime,

The Michael material, as you summarize it, reminds me of some of the things I gleaned from Michael Newton's books. From what I can tell from Newton's writings, the whole goal and course of soul evolution focuses on our "growth" in goodness and character. One of the things that characterizes this course, in more advanced souls, is taking on harder and harder incarnations, just as students take on harder and harder material in their course of study as they move up the educational ladder. However, the mere fact that one has taken on a life of great suffering in some form is not necessarily proof of an advanced soul. Proof of being an advanced soul is, like it would be in graduate school, the ability to handle well the tough "material" you are being asked to handle. Not just well, but very well. I can recall reading one regression where an advanced soul was describing a selfless life encouraging and caring for a severely injured/handicapped sibling. The same soul had apparently had prior lives playing the opposite role, developing the ability to endure and even find joy despite great suffering and adversity, and was now helping another soul to develop those advanced characteristics. So, from that standpoint, a very difficult life may indeed be visited on older souls more than on young souls. However, it is the ability to deal with that difficult life with grace, goodness, patience and love that is proof of an advanced soul, not the difficult life itself.

This is not necessarily contrary to what you have said. Moving from young to more mature seems to mean having to start dealing with much "harder" situations/"classes" on a more regular basis and learning to cope with them (just as it does in school). Moving from mature to advanced means not merely coping with such situations, but becoming a light shining in the darkness of such situations

Cordially,
S&S

PS--I'm definitely not there myself.
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SeaAndSky, excellent response. If I may ask, do you think it's possible for a soul at the mature or advanced level to revert back to living an "easy life" if they are sick of experiencing these hard lives? I just don't see what is the point of having to experience all these difficulties when other souls are getting off with such easy lives like becoming a billionaire, entrepreneur, making lots of money, partying, dating, enjoying high status and no particular difficulties. Why must other souls have to deal with things like loneliness, ostracization, disability, poverty, etc... on a daily basis for decades? Can't we just pick "easy lives" and enjoy ourselves again and again? After all, what is the point of going through difficulties for the sake of difficulties? Why go through this at all? What is the ultimate reward at the end of the tunnel that makes these difficulties all worth it? There has to be something at the end of the tunnel that makes these difficult lives all worth it? Do we get to become God and omnipotent ourselves? What is the end reward? If there is no end reward, what is the point of going through these difficulties?
 
Hi JustinTime,

You're asking some of the ultimate questions--What's it all about, and why go through this? The closest I can come to an answer, in short form, is that we are apprentice gods. You may notice that I use a small "g" here, but that would be my way of stating it. So, yes, the whole process is headed towards having more power, bliss, and etc. than we can currently imagine. So much so, that the pleasures and accomplishments of this life are not to be compared to what we seek to achieve and become. However, there is a price to pay, and it is one we should want for ourselves as well as for others, as extreme power is dangerous to ourselves and others. The type of power that is ultimately available, especially, cannot safely be put in the hands of a being who is not very close to perfect in terms of goodness, compassion, etc. (E.g., It is not the type of power that you would, from what I can tell, want to place in the hands of your parents in your current life).

This may be an oversimplification, as I am just focusing on the "power" aspect. All of it (power and bliss included) seems to be part of the same package--i.e., the power is directly connected to a state of development that includes extreme moral/ethical development as well as extreme development in consciousness and joy. It is a total elevation on all fronts. So, I'm not sure you can get any of these without developing/achieving all of them.

If you are at the difficult stage of adapting to "tougher" lives, you may well ask why you should be doing this. However, it appears that we all think the end result is worth the price, or we would not be here. So does the dedicated athlete, scholar, artist, etc. in terms of their more limited goals (which may in some cases be just a subset of the ultimate goal). All of these work very, very hard to achieve what they seek to achieve, and are willing in most cases to bear the pain. I am just repeating what I have read and personally believe to be correct. But, I (like many others on this board) have done a very great deal of study on these matters, and what I have found appears to mirror the experiences of the great majority of those who actually have first hand experience via NDE's, regressions, direct memory, or etc., including others on the board.

Could you go back to the easier lives you possibly had before and see being lived by some others? Hmmm. Could you still fit into the desks of kindergarten or elementary school? Could you be content playing in mud puddles/sand boxes, trying to be attentive to the most basic life lessons and activities, etc.? Probably not. This does not mean that everyone doesn't need a break from time-to-time and that every life from here on out will be a real toughie. I've read cases which indicate that some lives may even be chosen to be "easy" lives to the extent that is possible at this plane of existence--even by advanced souls. That doesn't mean that you will get to live the rich playboy life of material abundance you seem to have set forth above, but that you would have a life without excessive trials and pain--one suitable to the cultivation and experiencing of happiness at your stage of development.

Another question--can you just get off? From what I can tell, you do not have to finish your "course of study" (or apprenticeship as I put it above) at this plane of existence. Many sources seem to indicate that you can drop out and stop coming back here to what is, obviously, a world of pain and suffering for the great majority of humankind and always has been. Getting off the wheel in this way may require that you have achieved some basic level, just like one is not allowed to drop out of school before a certain age. Alternatively, it seems that some are such rotten cases that they are, so to speak, expelled from "school". However, info is fuzzy on these points. Either way, for those who do think about dropping out, the kicker is that this seems to be a much slower way to progress, and may even mean the end of progress towards the ultimate goal.

Once again, I'm not an all-informed infallible source. You will not find one here, though I have found that there are many wise and spiritual people among those that post here, and have gotten a lot out of my interactions with other board members. Anyhow, I hope the foregoing is of some help.

Cordially,
S&S

PS--I heartily recommend Michael Newton's books, taken in order. Once again, not an ultimate source, but very mind expanding!

PPS--There are a variety of others that should also be required reading, including those by Dr. Weiss and Carol Bowman.
 
I see three possibilities:
  1. as the soul develops, the incarnations are increasingly suffering
  2. as the soul develops, the incarnations are increasingly happy
  3. there's no relationship between the soul degree of development and the kind of life you get / pick for yourself.
I believe #2 to be the case. I don't believe suffering, in itself, is good for the soul.

I read all Michael Newton's and Brain Weiss' books. They opened my eyes / mind on many things, but I don't fully subscribe to those authors' beliefs.

I find Seth books to be close to what I experienced, and the answers I received while under hypnosis, and during out of body experiences.
 
Hi Baro-san,

Perhaps increased suffering is the wrong way of stating it. Increased difficulty is what I am talking about. Both "suffering" and "difficulty" are subjective things. What would count as extreme suffering or difficulty for one, may count as nothing to another at a higher stage of development. As a child, I could be perfectly miserable and extremely unhappy on occasions which would not impact me at all at my current age. E.g., I can still remember my misery as a little boy sitting on the floor for what seemed like endless ages as my mother tried on clothes at a ladies' dress shop (this would have been in the early 60s). The math problems that were given me at that age were also extremely challenging to me, filling me with frustration and irritation. Today they would be nothing.

The weight lifter initially struggles with very modest weights, but is nonetheless experiencing pain and extremely sore afterwards. In time, he will find that he must lift much heavier weights in order to reach this stage--and he does, always seeking the level that will build his strength, but not break his body. The old weights that used to stagger him now seem light as feathers. So, from that standpoint, I think you are correct. It will take more and more to cause the type of pain of spirit in the more advanced soul than it did to him/her at a much earlier stage. Plus, as your earlier Seth quote implies, he/she will be wiser and wiser in the ways of living life, thereby avoiding a lot of unnecessary self-inflicted suffering. At the same time, he/she will become more unshakeable in love, self-control, joy, etc. etc.

But, the advanced soul may also perhaps become more vulnerable in other ways. The increasing level of compassion and empathy being built into an advanced soul will also bring them into a realm of suffering for others they would not have known at an earlier stage. Perhaps there is a stage at which bliss and serenity reign supreme, unshakeable in any way, even when confronted with the misery and pain of the most helpless and vulnerable. My long ago studies in Eastern philosophy and yoga certainly seemed to posit such a state, but for me that is far ahead, if it exists at all. Until then, I can only foresee many more lifetimes of "weight-lifting" as I seek to become capable of bearing greater and greater burdens on my spirit without misery. These are lives that will leave me more and more immune to what will have become to me the petty annoyances of life. The question is whether they will not also make me even more vulnerable in love to the pain of others. I rather think so. In fact, I think the truly advanced soul cannot be truly happy until all are brought into the state of joy they enjoy. Hence, they return as sages, teachers and other types of helpers to humankind.

Cordially,
S&S

PS--Just my take on things.

PPS--A good book made all the difference in those long ago days. If I had something I enjoyed reading, Mom could look at yucky lady stuff forever (or at least until I got hungry or was missing my favorite TV shows). :)
 
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PPPS--I should also mention that I believe that the foregoing is presented in an extremely simplified way, that at an ultimate level the process could be fitted into a recovery/return model as well as a growth/maturation model (especially as both have considerable overlap), and that the somewhat daunting prospect of innumerable difficult lifetimes of development/recovery is the default position/process rather than the optimum for development/recovery. In terms of the optimum, I very firmly believe that heaven reaches down to help us, from the lowest to the very highest level. So, as with downriver canoeing, one will be carried along by the current even if they do nothing to cooperate in the process. One can also paddle and aid/speed the process (as well as avoid innumerable obstacles and setbacks). And, one can also accept a tow (as I did on at least one occasion) when making such a trip. At present, I'm a bit vague on the last option, but I have a firm belief that there are ways of leaping past vast stretches, and even possibly to the end. Once again, just my take on things.
 
JustinTime said:
WriteNow,

I am very sorry and saddened to hear about your circumstances. I actually have similar circumstances, where everything I do generally does not work out, and I have repeatedly, the big things in my life, they tend to always happen in a way that makes life difficult and awkward for me. My repeated efforts to build financial and career success have been set back by the most strange happenings, things seem to go out of their way to make my life difficult and to negate my hard work. I also know plenty others who work a little but are helped by extraordinary good luck in all of their major aspects of life, including: family, love, finances, appearance, and health. Some people have it all, and these people aren't necessarily those who treat others the best or work the hardest.

There is such a thing as karma, or life luck. It's hard to explain but it influences how much "good things" happen to you, or influences the results of your "hard work" in a positive or negative manner.

Have you read up about the Michael Teachings? You should Google it. They put forth a theory of soul evolution that is fairly consistent with all types of people I've met. They say that when souls first start incarnating, they go through several phases of incarnation, from baby to young to mature to old. Souls in the baby to young stages tend to get "easy lives" and luck is always on their side, they achieve a lot of financial and career success, with seemingly little effort. Souls in the mature stage pay back most of the karma incurred during the younger stages. You may be at the "mature stage". I certainly seem to be there right now, hence why so many things in my life just "fall apart" despite my doing my all to keep it together and putting my 150% into everything I do.

Regardless, I want you to understand that you are not doing anything wrong, at all. The impact of karma or luck on our lives is tremendous, you may not be doing anything wrong at all but it might be worth taking a larger view of life and understand that if you are in one of the "mature" soul evolution stages, it could be nearly impossible to see good fruits of your hard work in this life or immediately, as it is specifically designed to be that way. But according to Michael Teachings, every "soul" goes through this stage, except at different time periods (aka lifetimes).

Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

How interesting. I had never heard of these. I am going to check them out.
 
baro-san said:
there's no relationship between the soul degree of development and the kind of life you get / pick for yourself
Click to expand...

Obviously, this is the right one. You can "get" any life, what changes is your experience, and how you will react (more or less wisely) to apparently bad circumstances. But the risk to screw it all up again is always there, don't deceive yourself. You don't "pick" your life, you build the results of each life with each choice you make.
 
Hi Eown,

I'm not sure you're saying anything different here, but maybe I am wrong. My understanding is that people choose (or at least accede to) their parents, etc. and so choose their life to come. That doesn't mean that everything that is to happen in that life thereafter is pre-ordained, though it seems to me from some reports that much that will occur is known to those who counsel the incarnating spirit as, at least, a probable result of living that life. So, if one chooses a life that begins with birth in a destitute environment in a crippled body, one has definitely chosen some hardships to be dealt with. However, as you say, whatever may be the circumstances, "you build the results of each life with each choice you make."

Cordially,
S&S
 
Justintime,

I should mention that it will be up to you, as you research this field, to decide what are the best resources and the best explanations for what is going on here. From that standpoint, I should warn you that I have my own particular biases in approaching these issues: I lean almost exclusively towards what I consider to be first person/first hand accounts (even if reported by a regressionist).

So, I am very interested in what people who have had Near Death Experiences have to say, what individuals can report about PLs via regression or otherwise, and what people who have had Out of Body Experiences/visionary experiences/religious experiences, etc. have to say. In all of these cases, the person reporting is/was (to the extent one can tell) an actual living individual.

I am, OTOH, very leery of what is commonly referred to as "channeled" information, and don't tend to accept it unless it jives with other information received through the sources previously outlined. Maybe this is just an unreasoning prejudice on my part; however, I am innately suspicious of "where" channeled information comes from, "who" or "what" is behind it, and what their motives are. As noted, this doesn't mean that I discount it altogether. Indeed, it would be very difficult to do so considering that an argument could be made that most religions are founded on a person--a great religious leader--receiving information from otherworldly sources. However, for whatever reason, I consider this to be different from the type of entities involved and information that is typically "channeled".

Read things. Think. Use your intuition. Decide for yourself who and what you will trust, and why. This is one of those places where you will need to trust your own heart, mind and instincts.

Cordially,
S&S
 
Eowyn said:
Obviously, this is the right one. You can "get" any life, what changes is your experience, and how you will react (more or less wisely) to apparently bad circumstances. But the risk to screw it all up again is always there, don't deceive yourself. You don't "pick" your life, you build the results of each life with each choice you make.
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Eowyn, I think it's only fair to say that what you can build in a certain life is dependent on the starting conditions you pick for a given life. A boy born in poverty in a third world country is gonna find it almost impossible to become a Wall Street billionaire regardless of how hard he works. There is no doubt that being born in privilege afford you easier road to success, much easier. You can always find an exception but that is just an exception, the overall statistics show that one's initial starting conditions in life are well connected with one's success in life, in general. What you can build is still dependent upon what you've picked, wouldn't you agree? If life gives you lemons, there no way you can make pineapples.
 
Justin, your materialistic views have stayed in my mind all week. Here is a short you tube video that I received that addresses your concerns - I hope that you can understand the message. It requires you to shift your point of view.
 
JustinTime said:
A boy born in poverty in a third world country is gonna find it almost impossible to become a Wall Street billionaire regardless of how hard he works. There is no doubt that being born in privilege afford you easier road to success, much easier. You can always find an exception but that is just an exception, the overall statistics show that one's initial starting conditions in life are well connected with one's success in life, in general. What you can build is still dependent upon what you've picked, wouldn't you agree? If life gives you lemons, there no way you can make pineapples.
Click to expand...

I once watched a very interesting documentary about black young boys born in certain African countries, where they were great playing soccer and then foreign soccer team managers came to recruit them to play in Europe. They would promise magnificent contracts and lots of money, to become a "soccer star", the dream of everyone born in poverty. Well, they would come, of course, and worked for supposedly a fortune for them, which is nothing in an European country, and a year or two later the manager would break the contract for no reason, leaving them high and dry, unable to find another job. Most of them would end up doing drugs, or would become homeless, not too different from any other African immigrant. There was one though, who overcame that phase and after living in quite harsh conditions, would be strong enough to start a new life and help all those deceived boys who would meet his same fate. So, I think this is a great example of how people born in similar circumstances and who had to go through the same unfortunate event, can react differently and BUILD a different life. You can have the same cards, but you can play differently and win.

Of course, maybe for someone as you, who is only thinking of becoming rich, won't find the prize in any of these experiences. But I can bet this black boy's life is much more worthy and rewarding than one where you didn't have to make efforts for anything. It all depends on what you call "success". If life gives you lemons, probably you won't make pineapples, but you can leave those lemons to rot, or make the best lemon pie you've ever seen. That's where the challenge is. Life is a challenge. We are not here to live like spoiled children, as seems to be your wish.
 
SeaAndSky said:
My understanding is that people choose (or at least accede to) their parents, etc. and so choose their life to come.
Click to expand...

No, not their life to come, just the initial circumstances. Then you can do whatever with those circumstances. Of course, they may limit you, or maybe not, that depends.

SeaAndSky said:
That doesn't mean that everything that is to happen in that life thereafter is pre-ordained, though it seems to me from some reports that much that will occur is known to those who counsel the incarnating spirit as, at least, a probable result of living that life.
Click to expand...

I agree to some extent. "What will occur" is too large. Some events might be preplanned, for example that I will lose my legs in an accident. But then it's my choice to keep fighting and climb the Everest with prosthetic legs, or just fall into a depression and spend the rest of my life complaining in a hospital's bed. Don't you see the difference? I think that's mainly what life is about. As I said in my previous post, it's a challenge. You may have planned some of those challenges before incarnating, with other souls. But I think accidents can also happen. Anyway, you have to decide what to do. Aren't many NDErs asked even inside that tunnel if they want to come back or not (not all, as some are pushed back too, but probably because that's better for them)? It's always your choice. Always.
 
Eowyn said:
No, not their life to come, just the initial circumstances. Then you can do whatever with those circumstances. Of course, they may limit you, or maybe not, that depends.



I agree to some extent. "What will occur" is too large. Some events might be preplanned, for example that I will lose my legs in an accident. But then it's my choice to keep fighting and climb the Everest with prosthetic legs, or just fall into a depression and spend the rest of my life complaining in a hospital's bed. Don't you see the difference? I think that's mainly what life is about. As I said in my previous post, it's a challenge. You may have planned some of those challenges before incarnating, with other souls. But I think accidents can also happen. Anyway, you have to decide what to do. Aren't many NDErs asked even inside that tunnel if they want to come back or not (not all, as some are pushed back too, but probably because that's better for them)? It's always your choice. Always.
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To require someone to "keep fighting and climb the Everest with prosthetic legs" is too difficult an ask for most people.

The question still comes down to: why do some have it easy automatically and others must have it 100x harder but console themselves with their lot? Why couldn't their souls have just been born into the lives of the bodies born in easier circumstances.
 
Hi JustinTime,

At this point, your complaint has really just become one about the fact that this world ain't a great place to be (materially speaking) for the vast majority of humanity and never has been.

Think about it. If reincarnation is completely random, then everyone will average out over time, getting the same percentage of rich versus poor lives (and you can put this dichotomy into whatever terms you like). That's fair enough, though I don't think that is what is happening. If what is usually called Karma (in some strict justice sense) is the rule, then everyone is getting their just deserts, and you as well as your parents are either getting what you deserve in this life or will be "evened up" in some future lifetime. Once again, fair enough I suppose, if that is what you want to see. In what most of those who have studied the evidence currently see as some type of educational-evolutional-developmental system is true, all will likewise go through the process and hopefully develop in due course so that they either are not bothered by material circumstance (or as Baro-san emphasizes, can avoid/overcome them). Either way, they more-or-less transcend the problem. Once again, fairness should not be a complaint.

So, what you're really complaining about at this point is the fact that ANYONE goes through adverse circumstances at ANY time that someone else does not have to SIMULTANEOUSLY experience. We can't make this problem go away for you. Hopefully, as the world goes on, things will get better and better for everyone and this will not be such a problem. But the world is largely what we make it, and humans are far from perfect. If you want to live in such a world, you should be aiming right now to do what you can where you are to make it a better place. This includes trying to be a better person yourself. However, you should also get used to the fact that--barring some kind of radical divine intervention--this is going to be a very long term project.

Cordially,
S&S
 
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SeaAndSky said:
Hi JustinTime,

At this point, your complaint has really just become one about the fact that this world ain't a great place to be (materially speaking) for the vast majority of humanity and never has been.

Think about it. If reincarnation is completely random, then everyone will average out over time, getting the same percentage of rich versus poor lives (and you can put this dichotomy into whatever terms you like). That's fair enough, though I don't think that is what is happening. If what is usually called Karma (in some strict justice sense) is the rule, then everyone is getting their just deserts, and you as well as your parents are either getting what you deserve in this life or will be "evened up" in some future lifetime. Once again, fair enough I suppose, if that is what you want to see. In what most of those who have studied the evidence currently see as some type of educational-evolutional-developmental system is true, all will likewise go through the process and hopefully develop in due course so that they either are not bothered by material circumstance (or as Baro-san emphasizes, can avoid/overcome them). Either way, they more-or-less transcend the problem. Once again, fairness should not be a complaint.

So, what you're really complaining about at this point is the fact that ANYONE goes through adverse circumstances at ANY time that someone else does not have to SIMULTANEOUSLY experience. We can't make this problem go away for you. Hopefully, as the world goes on, things will get better and better for everyone and this will not be such a problem. But the world is largely what we make it, and humans are far from perfect. If you want to live in such a world, you should be aiming right now to do what you can where you are to make it a better place. This includes trying to be a better person yourself. However, you should also get used to the fact that--barring some kind of radical divine intervention--this is going to be a very long term project.

Cordially,
S&S
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S&S, thanks for your reply. Yes I agree I have grievances, but I don't think they are unreasonable. I like what you said, but my only stipulation is what you said would be perfectly ok and acceptable, but ONLY if reincarnation and mind-body dualism exists. If it turns out we don't get subsequent lives, and one life is basically all we get, then yes, I do think the logical action in some situations where you have no way out and things have no way of getting better would be suicide.

If it is a proven fact, some day, that reincarnation for sure, 100%, exists, and that there is some type of spiritual balancing across lives, then what you say makes a lot of sense and that people's suffering would be far more tolerable and understandable.
 
JustinTime said:
If it turns out we don't get subsequent lives, and one life is basically all we get, then ...
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You seem to have found your premise of fairness on disbelieving a theory that most members of this forum consider anywhere from plausible to true, i.e. that reincarnation is a fact. Given this difference in starting points, it's not surprising that you find our answers untenable.

I'm curious why you're venting here, specifically, if you're so certain reincarnation can't be valid. How can anything we say about balance over lifetimes be of use to you if you prefer to believe this is your only life? Is there a reason you're venting to us, specifically?

Nobody here can tell you "This is the one and only truth for all," with any more certainty than everyone else who knows their own version of "the one and only truth for all." In the end, it comes down to your own exploration and testing of the available information over time. We can explain to you what we have learned and experienced, but we cannot proclaim it in a way that will inevitably convince you, at least not without behaving more religiously than scientifically.

In my own exploration of reincarnation it seems clear that everything balances out one way or another, just over a longer span of time than a single lifetime. Others here and elsewhere say the same. That is where we are coming from because reincarnation is the central discussion point of this forum.

If you discount our responses because you think reincarnation is an unfounded theory, then perhaps you will benefit more if you look for comfort among those whose perspective is set on a single lifetime. They may offer responses that will encourage you more than ours will. I'd hate to see you miss out on ideas that will be helpful simply because you've arrived in a forum full of people whose theories you can't trust.
 
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Anybody remember me? :)

So anyway, I am working hard on accepting where I am and just living my life. If I did choose at least these general circumstances then fighting against them or being bitter might make the lesson null and I don't want that.

Things could be far worse. I could be starving.

I am just very afraid that I have done such a bad job dealing that perhaps I will have to come back and live this abused a life again, and I can not bear that. Please God, no.

I have been doing a lot of crying lately.

But you know, I do appreciate those who answered this thread. Your efforts have not gone unappreciated. I do appreciate it, very much. Thank you.
 
Hi WriteNow,

We definitely remember you! ;) JustinTime picked up on the issue and and added some sub-themes, but you're still in our thoughts. In any case, I don't think that you are doing poorly in dealing with the issues you are facing, and crying can actually be not only appropriate, but a spiritually beneficial exercise/response to your circumstances. So, keep hanging in there!

JustinTime,

What are the possibilities. First, if this is all we get, why kill yourself? That just shortens your time in the sun. "Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die!" Your only way to spit in the eye of the universe is to grab for the gusto and get the maximum amount of pleasure (or accomplishment if that is what motivates you) out of your one lifetime. As the poet said, "Do not go gentle into that good night, . . . rage, rage against the dying of the light"! If the universe is that sh__ty, outrage is more in order and definitely more sustaining than self-pity. Suicide just means that a very bad universe gets its way even sooner. No surrender! Second, if there is something hereafter, then you have to consider whether what you do now--including suicide--will affect what happens to you afterwards. Also, it means that this ain't all you get and it may be better in phase 2 (whatever it is). Either way, killing yourself is a stupid decision.

However, the real point is that you are going to have to reach your own conclusions on all of the above. Most people use some combination of intuition and reason in reaching decisions. As a young male, you'll probably be weighted very heavily towards the latter (at least in your own mind). Either way, you ain't going to be able to get around the "homework" involved. You're going to have to do the necessary reading and study, and use your reason/intuition (in whatever combination suits you) to come to a conclusion--even if it is only a tentative one. Yeah, this will probably involve tearing up your existing paradigms and trashing most or all of your current viewpoints. Get used to it. This is what growth entails. We think we know what it all means, and then life forces us to revise and re-evaluate. Sometimes the edifice we've constructed is such a poor fit in terms of reality that the whole thing has to come down. Sometimes just portions at a time--but don't think you're any better than the rest of us in this respect. You thought you knew how it all worked--you were wrong. Been there, done that . . . repeatedly.

Cordially,
S&S
 
WriteNow said:
Anybody remember me? :)

So anyway, I am working hard on accepting where I am and just living my life. If I did choose at least these general circumstances then fighting against them or being bitter might make the lesson null and I don't want that.

Things could be far worse. I could be starving.

I am just very afraid that I have done such a bad job dealing that perhaps I will have to come back and live this abused a life again, and I can not bear that. Please God, no.

I have been doing a lot of crying lately.

But you know, I do appreciate those who answered this thread. Your efforts have not gone unappreciated. I do appreciate it, very much. Thank you.
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You are not alone in your feelings and doubts! I for one have been, and still am going through these changes in thinking. Sometimes I'm so depressed that I think myself into a corner and make my situation so black and bleak that I leave no escape for myself. And only through time and other's encouraging words do I begin to see a light that shows me a possible way out. Where do we find these encouraging words? They are everywhere, if you look for them. This very forum has them, just as Sea&Sky provided. Concentrate on the few things that you have control of, because we cannot control many of the things we are forced to deal with. You mentioned God, and pleaded that you be spared another life like one you are experiencing. Well, God is a good place for finding encouragement. Citing an old saying, which is more of a prayer, and goes like this:

God, grant me the SERENITY to accept the things I cannot change, the COURAGE to change the things I can, and the WISDOM to know the difference.

Personally, I found similar words in Homer:

Homer in the Odyssey represents Odysseus doing in the words– ’He beat his breast, and thus reproached his heart: Endure, my heart; far worse hast thou endured!’

Do you think that Homer wrote this under the idea that the soul is a harmony capable of being led by the affections of the body, and not rather of a nature which should lead and master them–herself a far diviner thing than any harmony?

Let your soul guide you, because the soul is immortal and able to endure every sort of good and every sort of evil. Try to help others, which in the end will be good for you too. Life is like a prison, there is no escaping it, because beyond question, the soul is immortal and imperishable, and our souls will truly exist in another world! But it is not a bad prison, but a good one, overall.

Some persons will say no more than that they trust in God, and that they leave all to Him. It is a great part of true religion not to pretend to know more than we do. Others when they quit this world are comforted with the hope ’That they will see and know their friends in heaven.’ But it is better to leave them in the hands of God and to be assured that ’no evil shall touch them.’ There are others again to whom the belief in a divine personality has ceased to have any longer a meaning; yet they are satisfied that the end of all is not here, but that something still remains to us, ’and some better thing for the good than for the evil.’ They are persuaded, in spite of their theological nihilism, that the ideas of justice and truth and holiness and love are realities. They cherish an enthusiastic devotion to the first principles of morality. Through these they see, or seem to see, darkly, and in a figure, that the soul is immortal. But besides differences of theological opinion which must ever prevail about things unseen, the hope of immortality is weaker or stronger in men at one time of life than at another; it even varies from day to day. It comes and goes; the mind, like the sky, is apt to be overclouded. Other generations of men may have sometimes lived under an ’eclipse of faith,’ to us the total disappearance of it might be compared to the ’sun falling from heaven.’ And we may sometimes have to begin again and acquire the belief for ourselves; or to win it back again when it is lost. It is really weakest in the hour of death. For Nature, like a kind mother or nurse, lays us to sleep without frightening us; physicians, who are the witnesses of such scenes, say that under ordinary circumstances there is no fear of the future. Often, as Plato tells us, death is accompanied ’with pleasure.’ When the end is still uncertain, the cry of many a one has been, ’Pray, that I may be taken.’ The last thoughts even of the best men depend chiefly on the accidents of their bodily state. Pain soon overpowers the desire of life; old age, like the child, is laid to sleep almost in a moment. The long experience of life will often destroy the interest which mankind have in it. So various are the feelings with which different persons draw near to death; and still more various the forms in which imagination clothes it.
 
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