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American Indian - The Cross and the Circle

deborah

deborah

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I find the following premise interesting and thought I would pose a question here. American Indians believed in the Circle of Life. They also believed that the Cross touches the circle four times. If you draw a circle and then put a cross in the center you can then see what they mean.

The four points that touched were believed to symbolize the four attributes of a human being.

Courage - Strength, Wisdom, Generosity.

They taught their children that each person is born with one of these attributes; but you must find the other three.

What were you born with and what is the hardest for you to find? It's not a trick question - just a self reflective one that I am contemplating.
 
Deborah said:
I find the following premise interesting and thought I would pose a question here. American Indians believed in the Circle of Life. They also believed that the Cross touches the circle four times. If you draw a circle and then put a cross in the center you can then see what they mean.

The four points that touched were believed to symbolize the four attributes of a human being.

Courage - Strength, Wisdom, Generosity.

They taught their children that each person is born with one of these attributes; but you must find the other three.

What were you born with and what is the hardest for you to find? It's not a trick question - just a self reflective one that I am contemplating.
Click to expand...

Interesting the unversality of symbols. The original "celtic cross" and the Nordic Sun-wheel are exactly the same symbol, and I've also seen references to a "gnostic cross" that is the same as well.

To answer your question. I was born with Generosity. Giving and serving are significant aspects of who I am.

I would say that Courage is the most difficult. I'm not sure I'm up to being a revolutionary again.
 
Deborah,

I am currently taking a native american anthropology class (this is to fulfill my ethnic requirement for my BA- this semester is my last!! :thumbsup: ). I absolutey love how natrive american culture is based on the circle of life, including the medicine wheel. In my first semester of the BA program, we had to do a self portrait and I did my life on the medicne wheel.

As for your question, which I find extremely interesting- I think the one attribute I was born with is strength. All of my life I have been a survivor and I've come out the other side of many dark places. I need to learn generosity, courage, and wisdom comes with personal growth and experiences.
 
I like to think that basicly I'm a decent person but in the end that's for others to judge.
One thing that has remained stable throughout my life is the desire to see good in others even if I don't like them, at least I try to lol I try to see good traits in some of histories most nasty of peoples. I do it because I don't want to believe that there are any wholly evil poeple out there, I always hope for redeeming features in them. Ooooh, aren't I good? :tongue:

As for American Indians, I know very little about them but one thing I have come to believe is that they were/are in touch with nature, very much so I feel.
Hammy.
 
Deborah,

My immediate impression:

Courage
Wisdom------------------Generosity.
Strength​

I see courage and strength on one part of the cross, wisdom and generosity on the other.

Can you have strength without courage? Or the other way around?

Another thought: being especially strong in one area or another may make you appear weaker in those remaining. Very generous people sometimes appear weak because they find it difficult to be "hard". (This is an obvious simplification of something far more complex.)

Whose with wisdom may appear to lack strength. I'm sure there are those who think Gandhi was not really a strong person. Or even MLK. (I consdider both to have had iron wills, to be especially courageous and strong.)

What an interesting thread you've started!

-G
 
Thank you for all the wonderful reflections. The original statement said that a child is born with one of these attributes and must find the other three.

It has been very difficult for me to determine which one I was born with - but I would have to go with generosity. I am working on the other three - every day. I use to do the chores of my brothers and sister back in the day - so they wouldn't get in trouble. Over the years - wisdom has taught me that although I was being generous, they probably needed to make their beds. :eek:

I liked your chart GDL. It reminds me of the importance of balance, and finding ones Center. I hope to find all four this life time. I never thought of myself as couragous, but when I reflect back now - I guess so. When I think of strength I think of physical strength. Yet life has taught me otherwise - inner strength is sooooo important. : angel
 
You know, Deborah, I flashed immediately on strength as in "inner strength", but perhaps I should have interpreted it more literally, because as I think about it now, it seems as though "courage" may encompass that idea.

Wisdom is harder for me to see as something separate. This is just my own personal feeling though, because I always think of wisdom as having much the same meaning as "enlightenment", and the latter I associate with all things.

American Indians had many beliefs that ought to make us a bit humble. Often the seem simple, childlike, but as you think about them more deeply, there is so much more there. ;)

-G
 
American Indian-The cross and the circle

I think that I was born with generosity. When I first began school, Mama had to take my lunch money to school in an envelope and give it to the office secretary in person, because I always gave it away. I always gave my pencils and paper away, and anything else that I had that somebody wanted or that I thought they needed. I still give everything I have away. I always end up giving my money that I set aside for lunch at work to the residents or to my family of co-workers that don't have money to eat or get drinks. I always buy too much Avon because it helps who ever is selling it. From what I have experienced in this life, I think only children are usually spoiled and selfish. I never have been selfish, even when I was the "craziest". I think I have had the most trouble with wisdom. If I had been wise enough to listen to my mother and to my husband that is my soulmate, my life would not have been nearly so hard. Most of my hardships and heartaches I have brought on myself. God has blessed me with good people around me, to pull my setter out of the fire. My husband is an exceptional man. I don't think that I would have been nearly as good as he has been if the tables had been turned.
 
Courage - Strength, Wisdom, Generosity.

They taught their children that each person is born with one of these attributes; but you must find the other three.

What were you born with and what is the hardest for you to find? It's not a trick question - just a self reflective one that I am contemplating.
Click to expand...

Deborah...you always ask the most thought-provoking questions. :D

I believe I was born with Strength and Courage...living through an abusive childhood and having to deal with racism and prejudice throughout my life, and I still turned out okay...I could have ended up on the streets or caught up in drugs or worse but I managed to avoid that road. My good friend always tells me she believes I am one of the strongest people she has ever known...not strong in physical strength but in inner strength.

I was taught Generosity...it's just a cultural thing. Always repay kindness with kindness and never turn up at someone's house empty-handed.

The one thing I really need to learn is Wisdom...I am sorely lacking in that area because I have a tendency to speak and/or act first and think
second. Always gets me into hot water. :o
 
Oh this is very easy...
I was born with wisdom... I'm generally way ahead of even some adults in my life... not in book smarts (even tho i'm quite well in these) but more so people and life smarts....
I acquired generosity quite young... I'm a very generous person... and haven't remembered not really being one...

Courage and Strength seemed to come more difficult for me... my courage is high in some areas of my life... but mostly when it comes to relationships and things that really seem to matter... it is very low... also my strength is growing... but I still am relatively weak as a person... I am spirtually pretty strong... but other aspects aren't very well developed...

interesting topic. it's neat when you actually think about how much those four words can mean.
 
GDL said:
Deborah,

My immediate impression:

Courage
Wisdom------------------Generosity.
Strength​

I see courage and strength on one part of the cross, wisdom and generosity on the other.

Can you have strength without courage? Or the other way around?
Click to expand...

Wow great analogy..Can you have Strength but not have Courage to change if your life situation changes..can you do that without Wisdom?? I guess that's why we need all 4!!

Another thought: being especially strong in one area or another may make you appear weaker in those remaining. Very generous people sometimes appear weak because they find it difficult to be "hard". (This is an obvious simplification of something far more complex.)


Whose with wisdom may appear to lack strength. I'm sure there are those who think Gandhi was not really a strong person. Or even MLK. (I consdider both to have had iron wills, to be especially courageous and strong.)
-G
Click to expand...

Another example of having the attributes work together!!!

My one attribute at birth was Generosity..the hardist to find...Strength.

I feel more and more people in this era are becoming wise...At least we have more resources to find wisdom or (a mentor).

I've already noticed most of the main attributes of each person responding to this post so far (since joining this board) and they have been confirmed!!! This is a great group! :thumbsup:
 
I wasn't the most generous kid - I always wanted my pencils back that I loaned others, and would ask for the dollar repayment from lunch the week before - my parents were very frugel, so I guess I picked up on it. I have learned though, and I'd give my bed to someone who was in need, even if it meant sleeping on the floor until I saved up for a new one.

I remember always being confident - knowing that I could ride a bike, drive a car, get the job I wanted. Once I decide to do something, I know that I will achieve it... it's just a matter of the time and logistics.

Wisdom and strength have come to me and continue to, though I feel that I have the most to learn from wisdom.

What a neat topic.
 
hmm, It's kind of a toss up between generosity and strength.
I've never been lilly livered, and I've always shared --- but I guess generosity outweighs the strength part. I must have found strength quickly though, wisdom comes with age, and courage - that's probably the most difficult one for me to find. I am courageous, but it's not my most strongest point.

sorry for babbling....
 
I do not know if this holds true for the Native American cross and circle, but the Celtic Cross is considered in some quarters to be a blending of the male and female force in Deity. Is it the same in Native belief?
 
I am not sure Lights- I will check my references and see what I can find. :)

I think for me I was born with Generosity -the other three have been - earned - through trials and tribulations.
 
So if we are born with a specific trait - and you have identified yours - can you identify the past life that taught you -enables you - or has strengthened you to have this attribute in this life??
 
Hi Deborah,

What a wonderful question. I have to say – it really made me think for a while this morning. It’s hard to look at yourself honestly – and try to gauge where you might fit best.

My first response was generosity, but after quite a bit of mulling it over I finally settled on strength -- which I interpreted as meaning "inner strength."

The reason for my choice – was your second question in relation to past lives. I don’t believe I was especially generous in any of my recent pl’s, but I do believe I’ve had strength in many of them – and it was the culmination of several lives that gave me the strength I was born with in this life. ;)

In my present life – generosity and courage were lessons I learned from direct experiences in childhood. As far as wisdom – I believe I’m still working on that one. I feel I’ve learned a lot -- but have a way to go. : angel


Aili
 
Deborah said:
So if we are born with a specific trait - and you have identified yours - can you identify the past life that taught you -enables you - or has strengthened you to have this attribute in this life??
Click to expand...
Phew! That's a realllllly deep question (for me, anyway! *L*). I will definitely have to meditate on this one, because I genuinely don't know what mine is. It is VERY difficult for me to step outside of myself and see what my "specific traits" are. I mean, I know what "some" traits of mine are ... but as for specifics that stand-out from the common ... definitely something to ponder. I think this would be a good question for us all to ponder during meditations. (my opinion!)
 
Hmmm ... I no more than hit the submit button and I "heard" an answer: tough love. There are people out there that will stand behind someone regardless of the person's morals or integrity, just because that person is their spouse, child, parent, etc. I am not that type of person. That doesn't mean I don't very much love my family members or close friends, it just means that I will not stay silent or even lie for them just because they are someone I care about. This is definitely something that came with my whole package, as it's been there all of my life (my mom will verify that). I don't know which past life it comes from, but I suspect the WWII life. *shrugs* That's just speculation with a tinge of gut feeling thrown in. I could go into more detail of the gut feeling, but without knowing for certain, I'll leave it alone for now.
 
Hi Kat,

So....out of the four traits Deborah mentioned -- Courage, Strength, Wisdom and Generosity -- do you feel that best describes Courage?

I think it takes a lot of courage to always do the right thing. ;)


Aili
 
Thanks for plowing this topic back to the top Deborah. Courage, Strength, Wisdom, Generosity. What a good collection. I'd say that I was born with inner strength and persistence, and that I've been fortunate to have known some very wise people. I've slowly learned generosity, bur still have little if any courage, in that I'm very shy and introverted. I can see this particular mix being influenced time and again by various lives I've had as writers and scribes.

John
 
I don't know, Ailish ... it could be courage or strength (strength of character) - - I'm just not sure. I'm sure it wouldn't be classified as wisdom or generosity - - so at least it's narrowed down. *LOL*
 
An old, wrinkled member would like to add her self-reflections... :D

I believe I was born with either strength or courage, and the most difficult for me has definitely been generosity.

I remember many similar past lives in this sense - it seems generosity is something I really ought to learn.

This reminded me of a symbol I saw in my last meditation. It was actually a bronze or gold necklace, a pendant with a cross, whose four "ends" sort of like widened at the ends, and there was a circle or some round forms in the middle of the cross. This was shown in connection to my English PL in the 1400's I believe. I tried to look for a similar cross in my symbol book, but couldn't find one.

Karoliina
 
This is a wonderful thread requiring some self-reflection. ;) Do any new members have thoughts to share regarding Deborah's original question?

The four points that touched were believed to symbolize the four attributes of a human being.
Courage - Strength, Wisdom, Generosity.


They taught their children that each person is born with one of these attributes; but you must find the other three.


What were you born with and what is the hardest for you to find?
Click to expand...
If you can answer that - how about her second question?

So if we are born with a specific trait - and you have identified yours - can you identify the past life that taught you -enables you - or has strengthened you to have this attribute in this life??
Click to expand...
Definitely some interesting things to think about! I look forward to your answers........


Ailish :)
 
i love this thread...i believe i was born with wisdom because i remember always thinking as a child, going off by myself and just thinking...i think im working on generosity because i find myself generous with things like my time and food, caring for others, but im still working on being generous with money, ive always been afraid of going into debt and losing our home and stuff


i think ive had opportunities to work on strength and courage, as ive gone through some difficult physical and emotional times throughout my life
 
Hi Alaskanlaughter,


the situation with me is the same regarding generosity with money - I can do it with time, work, etc, but not with money and like you, I avoid getting into debt.


If you know anything further about this attitude of yours, I'd be glad if you shared.


Skarphedinn
 
when i was little i dont remember every worrying about money, even though looking back i think we just barely made it.....i grew up on a rural alaskan homestead without running water and few neighbors...i was homeschooled and dad worked long hours 60 miles away in the tiny town driving trucks....once i got into college is when finances started to hit me...i was on my own, and worked part time and went to school fulltime to get my degree...i remember having only 10 cents in my account one time and walking across town in the snow to deposit my paycheck...somehow ive always managed to keep myself afloat financially even when things went bad, like being the sole breadwinner for a long time...


i always keep a reserve of money to fall on if we hit hard times, but its not much...we usually just make enough money to make ends meet but we live comfortably...i just have a hard time loaning out money to ppl even though my husband freely would (if he was in charge of our finances, which he chooses not to be)...im always the one who does our finances and pays the bills, which i prefer...i hate not knowing where we stand financially or what's being paid or not...i dont like loaning money to ppl or dipping into reserves unless its an emergency...i dont know if its a control thing for me, creating the stability that i need, or if its just a non-generous fault when it comes to money


i am generous to a fault with everything else though...i will go out of my way to give friends rides to and from everything...anyone who wants to eat with us at home can come over, my husband has numerous cousins and relatives in town and my older son invites his friends to eat all the time, and i dont mind...i pick up relatives from the airport whenever they call, and i generally try to be generous...i feel like ppl have been so good to me in this life and have given so much to me, its like a way to give back


however ive hit several challenges throughout life when it comes to courage and strength...i got pregnant while in college and then married my son's father, which didnt last long..i went through that divorce and another difficult relationship after that...i always had the sense that both relationships had a reason, karma or something, for happening but ive never pinpointed what it was...ive had several ruptured discs in my back and am currently healing from some major hip adjustments through the chiropractor...so ive been through a lot of physical pain as well


courage has always been difficult for me...i have a hard time saying whats on my mind, especially in a work setting...i try to be very agreeable and flexible and sometimes i get walked all over because of it....ive been consciously practicing saying my mind at work and the reasons why i have those opinions in a way that wont offend anyone...and to my surprise, no one has chewed me out like i thought they always would


im sure i'll have more thoughts on this later and id love to hear others thoughts as well
 
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