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Italy 1904-07

deborah

deborah

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I have a question about Italian funeral rituals.

Today while at the chiropractor's office on the massage water table -I had an experience that makes me wonder. I was a small girl, probably 3-4 years old and I was at a funeral. I was small; we were at a service that was outside. An old woman with a black veil over her head and a long black dress on was walking down the isle way. She carried a large silver spoon and was sprinkling some kind of herb on the ground. I felt this was part of the service; that the sprinkling of this herb, spice or ground material of some sort was significant.

The woman with the veil was about 65 - 70 years old. Her appearance scared me - although for no reason other than her dark dress, the funeral itself and death - which I did not understand as a small child. I kept hiding my face in my mothers skirt. It was spring, an older member of the family had passed. There was green grass coming up through the ground. A cool breeze and a few wooden lawn chairs for the elderly.

Is anyone here familiar with Italian rituals at the turn of the 20th century for funerals? Old customs and beliefs? Any website you know of? I am looking.
 
I found one site that talked about how the older members of the family lamented openly and loudly, feared the soul, and slipped salt under the pillow in the casket and sprinkled it on the door steps after the body had been removed from the house. They also always wore black.

It referred to the multitude of folk belief practices, and the use of vinegar and salt; precautions taken to protect body from witches.

Anyone familiar with the use of salt -sprinkled on the ground in Italy? Old customs and beliefs? -----I am still looking but cannot find much. Thoughts? Ideas?
 
HI Fab -

Yes, that is the same one I came up with -- it has the information I posted above. It's long but interesting. It was such a clear vision - in action of her sprinkling something on the ground. I am hoping someone can verify this by experience, or by cultural specifics that they are aware of due to their own families ceremonies/rituals.

This kind of stuff fascinates me. As I have never seen this action/ritual done in this life, so I know nothing about it: the process seems to have little written about it for reference. *S*S*S*S

If I can validate it - it makes the experience more credible.
 
HI,

Well - nothing new. In fact I seem to not be able to find anything besides the original information I posted in this thread. I am wondering if Pagan belief's or sites might be another route since there seems to be a strong Pagan base in Italy. Any Pagan sites that might talk about funeral rites?

How frustrating. But... I have found that small details - such as this act at a funeral can be very validating -- IF I can validate it.
 
Hi Deborah,

Do you have any other flashbacks to the texture of daily life in early 20th C. Italy? Standing in queue in a chemist's shop to buy medicines, several old ladies in black in front of you, the black-and-white tiles, the enamel advertising for pills and syrups? Buying fresh fruit and vegetables in the market? Going to church - the piety and the pride (best clothes!), statues, organs, incense smells, Latin incantations... the landscape, the smells, animals being led to pasture, the routines, the weather...

Do you feel for the place, or for the people and events?

Michal
 
HI Michel,

Yes - very much so. The thoughts feelings and emotions are dominate. The details specific. Here is one small snippet from my journal: -

....I am at a festival or celebration in our vineyard. Music is playing and all the people are happy, we are celebrating. I am standing by a large stone fence and wearing a very fancy dress. The length was just below my knees, and is a beautiful pastel blue, trimmed with white lace. There is a huge olive tree which hangs over the stone fence in the front yard which supplied shade for several guests.

I climbed up on the fence, pretending it was a balance beam. A distant relative is holding my hand as I walked the fence line to the other end. I feel very happy and secure, it is a good feeling, a wonderful feeling, of family and home.

Time jumps forward to a few years later. I find myself arguing fiercely with my father. I have an Italian temper. He stood in the arched doorway inside of our house. The top half of the door was open, the bottom half shut. I am outside and very frustrated with him, and him with me.

I am looking into his eyes hoping to see a holographic projection, but I do not recognize him, not like the others who are in my life now. Nothing - except I feel he loved me and I love him. He is in his mid forties and quite the head of the house hold. It seemed to me that there was a large generation gap between us and a lot of cultural issues that I didn't agree with.
Click to expand...

There are many things - like the train station, stomping grapes for my fathers vineyard and the bombs from WWII. Not to mention the perspective changes; a child - a young woman alone -- an old woman who died of ovarian cancer. Her/my name was Valeria.
 
I don't know why i didn't think of that before... :o
Back home we have the tradition of taking baths with corse salt to avoid bad spells... I wonder if the salt/herb you saw could be related to the same tradition...
 
I found some interesting facts about the history of salt and how it has been used in early Christianity and in history in general. After Mass was celebrated in the church, in which he is to be buried, salt which has been exorcized is scattered in the tomb by deacons.

Salt is found in our superstitions: many believe it has an apostrophic power to drive away and exorcise evil spirits by sprinkling it on spilled oil.

Even more interesting is this
A popular custom still in use in a number of European countries requires that a handful of salt be thrown in the coffin of a dead person before the burial. The salt -as symbol of incorruptibility and immortality- would thus keep away the devil.
Click to expand...

History of Salt in Religion
Salt has long held an important place in religion and culture. Greek worshippers consecrated salt in their rituals.

Salt was put into a child's mouth at birth and on the breast at death. Sometimes earth as well as salt was laid on a corpse before burial, the earth being an emblem of the corruptibility of the body, and the salt of the incorruptibility of the soul. Not only did the salt prevent the body from swelling but, like fire and earth, the mourners may have seen salt as a protection from evil for the soul of the departed.
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It seems that salt has been used for centuries in burials - and in different religious and spiritual ways. I wonder - if the old woman I saw sprinkling a "herb/ground material" was trying to keep evil spirits away? It seems like such a small insignificant detail. But it is one that fascinates me. It's the little things - I don' know - that I learn about after the experience - that amazes me still.

Is it a validation? Not yet. But close.
 
Here it was a superstition that salt should be thrown over the left shoulder to keep the evil spirits away. Also if you have bad luck, throw salt over your shoulder to make it go away, but be sure no one is behind your back, otherwise your bad luck will go to this person.

Also I found on a dutch site :

'After a death that looked suspicious, like a heart failure with convulsions, the place was cleaned by throwing salt in every corner.'
 
I am headed to Venice, Italy in May for two and a half weeks. I am interesting in OLD customs such as burials, births, weddings as well as small towns and vineyards. I am looking for 1900-1945 Train Stations. I lived in the upper right hand side of Italy by Austria. I am interested in early air raids in 1917 - 1918.

Have any of you visited this area? What places of research would you recommend? How do I go about looking into historical information? Museums for sure -but more specifically historical societies perhaps? Community church records? WWI & WWI death records?
 
In a meditation

I finally found some time to meditate the other day. It has been quite a while and boy am I out of practice. *S*S*S*S*S I continue to have past life experiences - that include I would call - "the little things in life." Nothing fantastic - or extraordinary. I am posting this because I have questions and I am looking for historical references and validation. The little things are in italics. ;)

It began in Italy -in my bedroom. I was a young woman standing in front of a mirror putting on blue clip on earrings. These earrings seemed very important; as if a family heirloom. I felt so grown up and proud to wear them. They were no expensive ear-rings but fashionable for the time. (1920-25).

I was very fond of a man -who I was about to meet and go somewhere..but then it shifted.... I was outside - near the families barn. I walked through the big doors and turned left to see my mother shifting grains in a strainer/basket. We had goats and chickens. I think she was preparing to feed them.

Loud booming.... it was an air raid and WWI. I was home...my family was away to the nearby town....I began to cry, I was young (17) and alone. I kept saying "Pa Pa...Pa Pa...."

I then saw horse drawn carraiges..with caskets. My family was among them. The carriages were black with small white pin strips. I wore a black dress and veil; I held a white handkerchief. My eyes were so puffy -so swollen and the tears were just streaming then and now. It was amazing.

The procession for my family went from the small church to my families property and a plot of ground near our vineyard. There was a "Pastor" with a jeweled staff - black robe and white collar. The church was small and had a wood carved Jesus on the cross in the front of the congregation with a 5' x4' stained glass cross above it.

Questions- what is the difference between a Pastor a Minister, and a Priest? I felt he was a Pastor. Would a Pastor wear black and have a staff and were there Pastors in Italy in the early 1900's?

Were deceased people transported -- in Italy -- by horse drawn carriage not just to the church but to their own burial plots? Were people buried on their own land or cemeteries?

Anyone else remember Italy at the turn of the century?
 
Deborah said:
Questions- what is the difference between a Pastor a Minister, and a Priest? I felt he was a Pastor. Would a Pastor wear black and have a staff and were there Pastors in Italy in the early 1900's?

Were deceased people transported -- in Italy -- by horse drawn carriage not just to the church but to their own burial plots? Were people buried on their own land or cemeteries?

Anyone else remember Italy at the turn of the century?
Click to expand...

Hi Deborah,

The word Pastor is from the Latin and means shepherd. Pastor, Priest and Minister are basically the same thing and refer to someone who has been ordained. Referring to same as Pastor is most comon in Lutheran, Baptist, Evangelical and Pentacostal churches. Catholic and Anglican churches most commonly use priest. In the Catholic church the priest is referred to as Father. In the Anglican church as Reverend.

Certainly Protestant churches existed in Italy in the early 1900s. Invariably everone wore black to a funeral, including the priest. Horse drawn carriages were used to transport the coffin and the horses were usually black too. People were buried in both cemeteries and private plots. Owning a private family plot would suggest wealth.

What did the staff look like? Was it like a shepherd's crook?

Angelcat :)
 
HI Angelcat,

Thank you again - you're awesome with research. As much as I study ancient texts -and religions; when it comes to common terms and clothing, I am rather at a dis-advantage. I never really attended church - not even as a small child - except a few Christmas's.

My family owned a vineyard... Perhaps 100 acres. The house was modest -the barn huge. The staff had jewels on it. Lots of blue and red jewels. Which was odd - since he was so modestly dressed and the church so small and rather crude at best. It was curved at the end slightly. The wooden statue of Jesus hand carved.

*S*S Thanks again. :)
 
I think the time period for U.S. involvement in WW1 was 1914-1918 but I also believe it started a little earlier in Europe, like 1911.
I think checking WW1 websites might be a good idea especially if you can narrow down the time and place. Then maybe you can look for air raids or bombings that may have occurred in that place at that time.
I have traveled in this area while driving from Milan, Italy to Munich. I loved going through Austria. The area is mostly rural with mountains. The people are really nice and gave us milk for my brother's baby. I did visit a lot of churches but none that match your description. Also, it was about 17 years ago when I lived there.
Vicky
 
HI Vicky,

Yeah - websites about WW1 1914-1918- tons of them. Spent hours one day. I have matched my memories and the way in which my family and the German Pilot were killed, with the time period; it fits history and air-raids that were just emerging into the war.

I did not live in a large town, it was a rather small community. Mountains in the background - lots of rolling hills. The house is still very clear in my mind.

So ....you lived there once? When looking for places to stay in May I came across houses for sale in the country. Very tempting to retire there. :):):)
 
OH MY GOODNESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nica,

I never saw your post. I was deep into teaching classes when you posted this. I don't read everything here. I cannot. I was just thumbing through old threads and saw it today. :butbut: Are you still around? I have questions. Is your husband knowledgeable about the first air-raids in northern Italy? THANK YOU so much for the information listed above..
 
Thank You for asking

HI Nica,

Thank you for coming back. My first question - were the Nazi's ever referred to -(during WWII) as Nazin? By the Austrians, Germans or Italians? That is probably a question for your husband.

My next question -in a meditation a few years ago I heard some Italian men saying something in Italian about it being "So sad” (Bara .....ma tristi ) is what it sounded like. I had died and they were carrying my body away.
 
HI Nica,

Thank You again. You have been very helpful. :)

Question; my research suggests that woman could not own property during the years 1900-1950. Is it true that land could only be owned by a man?

In my past life, I lived alone and cared for my fathers vineyard -(my whole immediate family was killed); but my uncle and his wife came to visit me often. In many of the meditations, I felt that they visited - because the property belonged to my uncle. Not me. Is this the case?
 
HI Nica,

I died of ovarian cancer in the late 1950's. :eek:

Is the name Natali an Italian name? I think it is spelled that way. That was my sisters name. I will look back over my journals and see if there are other questions I might have. Right now I need more coffee. LOLOLOL

I am headed to Italy next week; I am sure I will have a ton of questions when I get back. :) Again - THANK YOU!
 
Hiya Deborah,

How was your trip to Italy? Did you find any validations for your memories you'd like to share? I'd love to hear all about it!


Ailish :)
 
Hi Aili,

I am putting some stuff together and will post over the weekend. Thank you for asking! :)
 
OMG I've been away for too long. What an amazing story. :eek: I've been reading this thread and marveling at how each aspect of your previous life is falling into place. I will continue to follow your story Deborah. I wish you much luck in finding out more. :thumbsup:
 
Deborah I just read them and I have tears in my eyes. I responded on the other thread. :thumbsup: :D
 
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