Karma - an in depth look

[KenJ]

????


Maybe I misunderstood, I thought from your post "I chose to be free" that you considered yourself "unbound" by anything. Free will does allow us to direct our actions and thoughts, but I do not believe that it makes us truly free.


Your last post indicates that you acknowledge life-reviews and perhaps a life-script based upon prior shortcomings which, to me at least, indicates an understanding of an agreement or self imposed obligation that your free will can postpone, but does not free you from it.


That was my take on your posts.

 

[famgrin]

And I think the different events correspond to different things I'm working on. For instance, I think I'm quite interested in justice, I know of at least a couple of lives where I've been involved with justice (from the judge/authority point of view), and I believe we always need to see things from all sides, maybe that's why I've also been "evil" in other lives, just to know how it feels to be judged (justly or not). I believe our bad experiences make us more compassionate and understanding of what other people may be going through, and I think that reason is good enough to "accept" having an especially hard life, much more than any "karmic debt" I could have (just to clarify, I don't think you choose everything bad that happens to us, sometimes we just have the misfortune of meeting people who like to do evil). I'm also working hard on attachment/detachment, or that's what it seems from other past lives and also events on this one. Let's say it's not that I abandoned someone and then I'm going to be abandoned to experience the same suffering I caused. It's just I'm studying the different perspectives to understand why we become attached to someone, or for example the difference between attachment and true, generous love. I don't think we have an only purpose in life, but a few. And it's up to each of us to find out, this is a work we have to do alone. Like Deborah was saying on the other thread, knowledge is within us.

It seems to me like the truest statement. It's logical. We need to experience both good and bad experiences. All for our personal development. These are only lessons, not punitive karma. Probably are not punishments, but it, in order to we are of our own volition felt not repeat this error - to ripen, that's not correct (against harmony) - I don't feel individual need it to do and thus reached a higher spiritual state.

 

[tanguerra]

It seems to me like the truest statement. It's logical. We need to experience both good and bad experiences. All for our personal development. These are only lessons, not punitive karma. Probably are not punishments, but it, in order to we are of our own volition felt not repeat this error - to ripen, that's not correct (against harmony) - I don't feel individual need it to do and thus reached a higher spiritual state.

Many people have an underlying assumption, probably culturally enforced, that we 'have to' do anything or that we 'need to' learn lessons or that it's our purpose in life to reach perfection one day. We may choose to do so. We may just do whatever the heck we like. I suspect the experience between lives, is a lot like the life experience, in that it's similar for everyone, but also completely individual.


The people who have done in-between life regressions tend to be a self-selecting group, so we must beware of deciding any universal laws based on what is a relatively small and distinct sample. The type of people doing past life regressions tend to be a) able to afford this sort of luxury b) self-aware and interested in self-development c) probably fairly well-meaning and generally fairly 'well behaved' people.


It would be an interesting exercise to see if you could compare the in-between life experiences described by people who were habitually aggressive, criminal or in other ways, not exhibiting beneficial behaviours. I wonder if they would have an experience where they undertook to do better next time, or refused any kind of guidance from the 'elders'? I'm sure I read of one such account somewhere.


I also read a book a while ago by a man, Dannion Brinkley, who had been a very bad man in his life. He'd been a sniper in the war and later a hitman who'd committed many murders for money. He was hit by lightning while on the phone (talk about a sign from God, or a 'bolt from the blue') and had an extended near death experience. He was out for several hours. They actually thought he was dead and he woke up in the morgue, much to the astonishment of everyone. He described a very long process where he was 'debriefed' and it was outlined to him just how much pain and suffering he had caused, for instance to the families of his many victims. In the experience he describes, he felt that he'd been gone for months and attended some kind of celestial university, where he was taught about various fundamental philosophical and spiritual ideas that he struggled to put into words when he 'came back'. After this experience, he was determined to be a better man. Again, he was not compelled in any way, just counseled, and made up his own mind to do better.

 

[Eowyn]

Maybe I misunderstood, I thought from your post "I chose to be free" that you considered yourself "unbound" by anything. Free will does allow us to direct our actions and thoughts, but I do not believe that it makes us truly free.
Your last post indicates that you acknowledge life-reviews and perhaps a life-script based upon prior shortcomings which, to me at least, indicates an understanding of an agreement or self imposed obligation that your free will can postpone, but does not free you from it.


That was my take on your posts.

I said I chose to be free because I don't adhere to any ancient belief. I read as much as I can, I appreciate everyone's inputs, be it ancient teachings or normal people's experiences, but I don't take anything for granted and I try to reach my own conclusions, if it's possible based on facts, not in faith, as others do here. It was a reflection on the quote I shared, as I feel we always are limited by our own human minds and the beliefs we choose to create or to follow, in order to feel comfortable inside of them. If you don't get rid of those beliefs, you don't get anywhere.


As for free will and not being bounded, I think a self-imposed obligation has nothing to do with any "Law of Karma", as this is supposed to be imposed by "the Universe", it seems. I acknowledge life-reviews, of course, in my personal search I hang around with some people who had done lots of LBL (life between lives) regressions, but I didn't get along too well with them, as they tend to make a Bible of Michael Newton's books (or at least in the group I was), again we find the same tencendy I'm referring to above... but at least some of them doubted karma as much as I do, as I believe an LBL regression gets you very close to the Truth, though it keeps being a partial view.


I'm not very keen of "lessons" either, it's like Tanguerra says, it's all a matter of freedom. Some say we are here to learn. Well, we may learn or not, it's up to us. Have I learned something from some of my past lives? Of course, or at least I want to think so. But I'm not so sure about other past lives, you can come here just to have fun too, or maybe to play what I call "a secondary role", to help others in what they want to achieve, idk, the possibilities are endless...


Free will doesn't mean you can do whatever you want, I think you might be mistaking the concept of "liberty" with "license". We live in a world with other people, there are always limits to the things we can do, maybe that's one of the most important "lessons" we find in reincarnation. There's no excuse to cause suffering in others, and being able to give up your "spiritual rights" or your own life to prevent that suffering is something only a few achieve. So, if I think I have free will, that means there's no one out there (God or Universe) telling me what to do, but this doesn't mean the Universe is chaotic and anarchic. I'm here for the experience, and to understand why such rules are necessary (I said rules but I believe the One Rule is Love). When we cross to the other side, I believe we all are perfectly aware of the point in which we are, and just like you look for a new job if you lose one or get bored, you'll go for new goals, depending on what you want to do next. This depends only on us, no one can forces us to do something we don't feel ready to, and of course your past experiences don't determine anything. They just change you... or not.

 

[AOSpare]

I said I chose to be free because I don't adhere to any ancient belief. I read as much as I can, I appreciate everyone's inputs, be it ancient teachings or normal people's experiences, but I don't take anything for granted and I try to reach my own conclusions, if it's possible based on facts, not in faith, as others do here. It was a reflection on the quote I shared, as I feel we always are limited by our own human minds and the beliefs we choose to create or to follow, in order to feel comfortable inside of them. If you don't get rid of those beliefs, you don't get anywhere.
As for free will and not being bounded, I think a self-imposed obligation has nothing to do with any "Law of Karma", as this is supposed to be imposed by "the Universe", it seems. I acknowledge life-reviews, of course, in my personal search I hang around with some people who had done lots of LBL (life between lives) regressions, but I didn't get along too well with them, as they tend to make a Bible of Michael Newton's books (or at least in the group I was), again we find the same tencendy I'm referring to above... but at least some of them doubted karma as much as I do, as I believe an LBL regression gets you very close to the Truth, though it keeps being a partial view.


I'm not very keen of "lessons" either, it's like Tanguerra says, it's all a matter of freedom. Some say we are here to learn. Well, we may learn or not, it's up to us. Have I learned something from some of my past lives? Of course, or at least I want to think so. But I'm not so sure about other past lives, you can come here just to have fun too, or maybe to play what I call "a secondary role", to help others in what they want to achieve, idk, the possibilities are endless...


Free will doesn't mean you can do whatever you want, I think you might be mistaking the concept of "liberty" with "license". We live in a world with other people, there are always limits to the things we can do, maybe that's one of the most important "lessons" we find in reincarnation. There's no excuse to cause suffering in others, and being able to give up your "spiritual rights" or your own life to prevent that suffering is something only a few achieve. So, if I think I have free will, that means there's no one out there (God or Universe) telling me what to do, but this doesn't mean the Universe is chaotic and anarchic. I'm here for the experience, and to understand why such rules are necessary (I said rules but I believe the One Rule is Love). When we cross to the other side, I believe we all are perfectly aware of the point in which we are, and just like you look for a new job if you lose one or get bored, you'll go for new goals, depending on what you want to do next. This depends only on us, no one can forces us to do something we don't feel ready to, and of course your past experiences don't determine anything. They just change you... or not.

I said I was going to shut up but I cannot stand it anymore...


Basically just one question;


Who do you think decides to reincarnate into any slum, or being the lowest caste in India, or into an alcoholic/abusive family? By his/her own free will?

 

[tanguerra]

Who do you think decides to reincarnate into any slum, or being the lowest caste in India, or into an alcoholic/abusive family? By his/her own free will?

As has been discussed above, the individual decides. There are worse things than being poor and living in a slum by the way. There may be reasons why you would select to be born into an alcoholic or abusive family. Some of it might be completely random, and some of it might not turn out the way people thought it would, sometimes people might pick something that gets them in over their heads. It happens. Things go wrong. Life happens! That's what makes it interesting. If we never wanted any problems or difficulties, we'd just stay in 'heaven', eh?


How did I end up in my most previous life as a lady of ill-repute, during the Blitz, suffering various tragedies? It probably seemed like a good idea at the time. Maybe I didn't think it through all that well? Wouldn't be the first time I'm sure. I'm also sure I wouldn't give up any of those experiences, even the bad ones, because I got to be with my friends, at least for a short while, and had all kinds of interesting adventures of one sort or another.


Imagine you had a choice - you could live your life in a mansion, surrounded by servants and be lonely, but rich. Or you could be with your beloved, but you'd be poor and live in a hovel?


Imagine you had a choice - you couldn't see your friends again for a whole lifetime, but you could live on a tropical paradise, or you could be with one of your soul group who was struggling with the demons of substance abuse and see if maybe you could help them in some way, or at least be there with them?


What would you choose if you were immortal, could not be harmed in any permanent way, and you knew that it was all a 'game' really anyway? Would you just keep doing the same thing over and over - living a life of wealth, ease and luxury for instance - or would you enjoy something a bit different, with an element of challenge, now and again? I'm sure there are adventurous souls who love the 'extreme' stuff, just as there are 'extreme' sports people in this world. Why do they do it? Beats me, but they seem to like it.


When people report about the process of selecting their next life, what they usually describe is being summoned when the time is right (which seems to depend on suitable 'bodies' being available with or without the rest of your soul group being ready to go at that time, etc). Then people are presented with some options - usually 3 or 4, although it's different for everyone, again depending on availability and such issues I assume.


Sometimes I think it's a bit like the fairytales where people make wishes. The may turn out to be 'foolish' wishes that don't work out the way people thought they would. But, it is the hand you are given and it's what you do with it that counts. You can call that 'karma' if you like.

 

[AOSpare]

tanguerra,


And you think these cycles go on forever? What is the goal and purpose? You know it would be awfully boring, at least to me. The way I see it, and the way I was taught by higher souls is that there is an evolution that Darwin managed to omit, and that is the Spiritual evolution. The goal is to return us to the Paradise where we were One with God/Nature/Universe. This is our true nature and true self. Now we are in a dream, Maya, Illusion. We can only be one with God/Nature/Universe when we are pure and selfless. No ignorance, no ego, no hate,no jealousy and petty human traits...As Austin Spare I was an artist and occultist who rejected worldly fame and fortune and died penniless with a burst appendix - Now, I am a bipolar male who is trying to figure out the lessons I need to know from all this to avoid the "revolving door" trap.


Free will yes, we shall always have that but no person in their right mind would willingly reincarnate into Hell on Earth. We all would wish a nice and cushy life..I am not sure about you, but I would...

Imagine you had a choice - you could live your life in a mansion, surrounded by servants and be lonely, but rich. Or you could be with your beloved, but you'd be poor and live in a hovel?

 

[tanguerra]

....Now we are in a dream, Maya, Illusion. We can only be one with God/Nature/Universe when we are pure and selfless. No ignorance, no ego, no hate,no jealousy and petty human traits...

But why? What is the purpose of doing this? What happens after we are 'at one'? Do we all break up and start over again? Wouldn't that get boring after a while?

 

[famgrin]

Many people have an underlying assumption, probably culturally enforced, that we 'have to' do anything or that we 'need to' learn lessons or that it's our purpose in life to reach perfection one day. We may choose to do so. We may just do whatever the heck we like. I suspect the experience between lives, is a lot like the life experience, in that it's similar for everyone, but also completely individual.
The people who have done in-between life regressions tend to be a self-selecting group, so we must beware of deciding any universal laws based on what is a relatively small and distinct sample. The type of people doing past life regressions tend to be a) able to afford this sort of luxury b) self-aware and interested in self-development c) probably fairly well-meaning and generally fairly 'well behaved' people.


It would be an interesting exercise to see if you could compare the in-between life experiences described by people who were habitually aggressive, criminal or in other ways, not exhibiting beneficial behaviours. I wonder if they would have an experience where they undertook to do better next time, or refused any kind of guidance from the 'elders'? I'm sure I read of one such account somewhere.


I also read a book a while ago by a man, Dannion Brinkley, who had been a very bad man in his life. He'd been a sniper in the war and later a hitman who'd committed many murders for money. He was hit by lightning while on the phone (talk about a sign from God, or a 'bolt from the blue') and had an extended near death experience. He was out for several hours. They actually thought he was dead and he woke up in the morgue, much to the astonishment of everyone. He described a very long process where he was 'debriefed' and it was outlined to him just how much pain and suffering he had caused, for instance to the families of his many victims. In the experience he describes, he felt that he'd been gone for months and attended some kind of celestial university, where he was taught about various fundamental philosophical and spiritual ideas that he struggled to put into words when he 'came back'. After this experience, he was determined to be a better man. Again, he was not compelled in any way, just counseled, and made up his own mind to do better.

I agree with you Tanguerra. What we selected in the lives is individual and of course no one can force us. The story of Dannion Brinkley is a good example. Thanks

 

[AOSpare]

After your return to Oneness you won't be in the state of "separation", you have arrived - crossed the finish line. Now, you no longer need your physical appearance and you will have gained infinite knowledge and wisdom. This is what the ancient's called Heaven, Bliss, Nirvana, Paradise etc. On the other hand true Hell is descending into matter, our earthly bodies, and lives.


If you wish, in that ultimate state you can incarnate and return to help others but THEN it is your choice alone, not before!

But why? What is the purpose of doing this? What happens after we are 'at one'? Do we all break up and start over again? Wouldn't that get boring after a while?

 

[Eowyn]

I said I was going to shut up but I cannot stand it anymore...
Basically just one question;


Who do you think decides to reincarnate into any slum, or being the lowest caste in India, or into an alcoholic/abusive family? By his/her own free will?

Tanguerra explained it very well, and yes, it's you who decide. It's a very common question, AOSpare, when we don't understand the suffering in the world, don't think I've never pondered about this, and I've come to think our lives on Earth are just challenges we ourselves choose to live, to see what we would do, how we'd react. I have the feeling that while you're on the other side, you are in a place where you don't have worries, you dont feel pain, you don't fear death, this state is peaceful and you can discuss with your fellow souls what you would in a certain situation when you're in the physical world, from a theoretical point of view, but as in any other earthly situation, you just can't know until it happens to you for real. I think that's why we need such an "awful" place like the Earth to incarnate. Spirit life is easy, human life is not, but our experiences here is what make us grow.


Also, keep in mind we may think our life in the Western world, or the life of a rich person with apparently no problems, doesn't have to be "easier" than one in those lowest castes in India, there are plenty of people who have no economic problems but they end up depressed or even commit suicide. Each life has its own challenges or dangers.

After your return to Oneness you won't be in the state of "separation", you have arrived - crossed the finish line. Now, you no longer need your physical appearance and you will have gained infinite knowledge and wisdom. This is what the ancient's called Heaven, Bliss, Nirvana, Paradise etc. On the other hand true Hell is descending into matter, our earthly bodies, and lives.

I don't know if we'll ever return to Oneness, but I'm sure that if that's the purpose, it's very faraway and we'll need thousands of lives to get there. I also believe that when we return to the other side, we are not immediately in the presence of "God" or whoever you believe in, we might be closer, but even being spirits, we still have a long way to go to reach that "Oneness" you mention. Maybe one day we won't need to reincarnate anymore, but maybe that would be only the end of a cycle, and we'd start a a new one, with different tasks, different goals, for example helping those who are incarnated, or watch over other forms of life in different planets, who knows... Of course, this is a pure belief.

 

[AOSpare]

I understand that a rich person's life is not easier. But neither of you explained anything, at least not to me. Your theory (and it is only your theory and conjecture) that we freely and willingly incarnate, then presumably we know something of the circumstances we are getting into. So alcoholic, drug abuse, dysfunctional families, famine are by choice, you suppose to say. Right? Well, that is just plain nonsense. You cannot explain this, no matter how much you argue in favor. So let's agree to disagree, and I am not going to go further.

Tanguerra explained it very well, and yes, it's you who decide. It's a very common question, AOSpare, when we don't understand the suffering in the world, don't think I've never pondered about this, and I've come to think our lives on Earth are just challenges we ourselves choose to live, to see what we would do, how we'd react. I have the feeling that while you're on the other side, you are in a place where you don't have worries, you dont feel pain, you don't fear death, this state is peaceful and you can discuss with your fellow souls what you would in a certain situation when you're in the physical world, from a theoretical point of view, but as in any other earthly situation, you just can't know until it happens to you for real. I think that's why we need such an "awful" place like the Earth to incarnate. Spirit life is easy, human life is not, but our experiences here is what make us grow.
Also, keep in mind we may think our life in the Western world, or the life of a rich person with apparently no problems, doesn't have to be "easier" than one in those lowest castes in India, there are plenty of people who have no economic problems but they end up depressed or even commit suicide. Each life has its own challenges or dangers.


I don't know if we'll ever return to Oneness, but I'm sure that if that's the purpose, it's very faraway and we'll need thousands of lives to get there. I also believe that when we return to the other side, we are not immediately in the presence of "God" or whoever you believe in, we might be closer, but even being spirits, we still have a long way to go to reach that "Oneness" you mention. Maybe one day we won't need to reincarnate anymore, but maybe that would be only the end of a cycle, and we'd start a a new one, with different tasks, different goals, for example helping those who are incarnated, or watch over other forms of life in different planets, who knows... Of course, this is a pure belief.

 

[Eowyn]

So alcoholic, drug abuse, dysfunctional families, famine are by choice, you suppose to say. Right? Well, that is just plain nonsense.

Not always. I said it before.

But neither of you explained anything, at least not to me. Your theory (and it is only your theory and conjecture) that we freely and willingly incarnate, then presumably we know something of the circumstances we are getting into.

Yes, that's all we have, theories and conjectures, including spiritual gurus or supposedly "higher souls" as you like to call them. But at least mine are based on my own experiences, not on what I've been told.

So let's agree to disagree, and I am not going to go further.

No worries, I didn't mean to go further. It's what I tend to do when people don't want to listen. Like I said, keep believing whatever makes you feel comfortable, it's our human nature. We've all been there.

 

[Eowyn]

So alcoholic, drug abuse, dysfunctional families, famine are by choice, you suppose to say. Right? Well, that is just plain nonsense.

Not always. I said it before. And I've noticed our definitions of "illogical" and "nonsense" are pretty different.

But neither of you explained anything, at least not to me. Your theory (and it is only your theory and conjecture) that we freely and willingly incarnate, then presumably we know something of the circumstances we are getting into.

Yes, that's all we have, theories and conjectures, including spiritual gurus or supposedly "higher souls" as you like to call them. But at least mine are based on my own experiences, not on what I've been told.

So let's agree to disagree, and I am not going to go further.

No worries, I didn't mean to go further. It's what I tend to do when people don't want to listen. Like I said, keep believing whatever makes you feel comfortable, it's our human nature. We've all been there.


Honestly, I expected to hear better arguments coming from someone who appears to be so sure of the existence of such laws, and I did want that valid example of karma at work. I have no problem in changing my beliefs... but with a good reason.

 

[tanguerra]

After your return to Oneness you won't be in the state of "separation", you have arrived - crossed the finish line.

Yes, but what is the purpose of this?

 

[tanguerra]

...But neither of you explained anything, at least not to me. Your theory (and it is only your theory and conjecture) that we freely and willingly incarnate, then presumably we know something of the circumstances we are getting into. So alcoholic, drug abuse, dysfunctional families, famine are by choice, you suppose to say. Right? Well, that is just plain nonsense. You cannot explain this, no matter how much you argue in favor. So let's agree to disagree, and I am not going to go further.

I'm sorry you find this discussion challenging AOS, but try to be patient and hang in there. It's ok to explore other ideas and there's no need to call them 'nonsense'. Personally I think trying to work out the 'why' of everything is 'nonsense' as much as some of the answers people come up with. What is the purpose of a tree? What is the purpose of an ocean? What is the purpose of a galaxy? Why are humans so terribly important that only we (allegedly) have a purpose, but nothing else does?


Life certainly could be a matter of luck and happenstance, although I know that idea rubs a lot of people up the wrong way. It doesn't have to be 100% planned or 100% luck though, does it? It could be a bit of both. We might have some idea what we're getting into, but then things just 'happen'. Wars break out, we have accidents, stuff happens, all kinds of random things are possible.


Say it's like deciding to watch a movie (or read a book)... You have some idea what the movie/book might be about beforehand most likely (but not necessarily). You might like war movies, or romantic movies, or musicals, or to see something different that you've never seen before - something 'avante garde', something sci-fi fantasy ...


You decide you will go see movie X instead of movie Y. Or, depending on your personality, you might stumble into the movie theatre on a whim, because you've got time to kill and for no other reason. You might close your eyes and pick a book off the shelf at random. In any case, you don't really know how it's going to turn out in the end or it would be pretty boring, wouldn't it?


Are you doing this to grow spiritually or in some other way? You might be. Are you doing it because you're bored and want some distraction? Perhaps. Are you doing it because it's a topic that interests you and you want to learn more about it? Maybe. Are you doing it because you're a big fan of the star/author and just love their work? Could be. Is it the same reason for everyone who goes to the movies or reads a book? Of course not. Does it matter? No, it doesn't.

 

[AOSpare]

Not challenging at all, you have not answered to any question, well Socratic question of mine. The augment is circular if you just keep repeating yourself without actually addressing issues presented to you.

I'm sorry you find this discussion challenging AOS, but try to be patient and hang in there. It's ok to explore other ideas and there's no need to call them 'nonsense'. Personally I think trying to work out the 'why' of everything is 'nonsense' as much as some of the answers people come up with. What is the purpose of a tree? What is the purpose of an ocean? What is the purpose of a galaxy? Why are humans so terribly important that only we (allegedly) have a purpose, but nothing else does?
Life certainly could be a matter of luck and happenstance, although I know that idea rubs a lot of people up the wrong way. It doesn't have to be 100% planned or 100% luck though, does it? It could be a bit of both. We might have some idea what we're getting into, but then things just 'happen'. Wars break out, we have accidents, stuff happens, all kinds of random things are possible.


Say it's like deciding to watch a movie (or read a book)... You have some idea what the movie/book might be about beforehand most likely (but not necessarily). You might like war movies, or romantic movies, or musicals, or to see something different that you've never seen before - something 'avante garde', something sci-fi fantasy ...


You decide you will go see movie X instead of movie Y. Or, depending on your personality, you might stumble into the movie theatre on a whim, because you've got time to kill and for no other reason. You might close your eyes and pick a book off the shelf at random. In any case, you don't really know how it's going to turn out in the end or it would be pretty boring, wouldn't it?


Are you doing this to grow spiritually or in some other way? You might be. Are you doing it because you're bored and want some distraction? Perhaps. Are you doing it because it's a topic that interests you and you want to learn more about it? Maybe. Are you doing it because you're a big fan of the star/author and just love their work? Could be. Is it the same reason for everyone who goes to the movies or reads a book? Of course not. Does it matter? No, it doesn't.

 

[tanguerra]

Sorry AOS I must have missed the question? What question are you asking?

So alcoholic, drug abuse, dysfunctional families, famine are by choice, you suppose to say. Right?

Was this it?

 

[tanguerra]

After your return to Oneness you won't be in the state of "separation", you have arrived - crossed the finish line. Now, you no longer need your physical appearance and you will have gained infinite knowledge and wisdom. This is what the ancient's called Heaven, Bliss, Nirvana, Paradise etc. On the other hand true Hell is descending into matter, our earthly bodies, and lives.
If you wish, in that ultimate state you can incarnate and return to help others but THEN it is your choice alone, not before!

Is this a question? It looks like an assertion to me, based on Hindu dogma and does not gel with the experiences that many, many people have described, which is that there is quite a lot of choice and chance involved in earthly life.


Earthly life is not 'hell' for most people. Sure, it can be difficult, but many people have a wonderful life, full of love and happiness and are very sad to leave it. Good stuff happens. Bad stuff happens. Only the proportions are different, along with people's perceptions of them. Wild generalisations of this nature, that life is 'hell', are not really very helpful. They also tend to upset people needlessly.


I will ask you a question. Do you have any personal experiences with past life memories, or the experience of life-between-lives? Or is your information all gleaned from reading?

 

[AOSpare]

Does this statement(bellow) look like a good solid argument? What about a small village in sub Saharan Africa with disease, starvation and average life expectancy of 40-years. I guess some people are just curious what that life is really like? They just want to experience slow death while flies buzzing about? Or that is random? But could not possibly be caused by past Karma.


Listen here, I am not sure what kind of "experience" you site - remembering past life's I guess but has it occurred to you that this could be all in your head? Again you say "Hindu dogma", this my fiend, is accumulation of Ancient Wisdom. You put down ancient beliefs of Tibet and cockily sure of your own so called "experience" is the only way. This is arrogant and closed minded.


I've posted my initial post to those are share the concept of Karma/Reincarnation or at least have open mind. I frankly could not care less about other's "experiences". I always offer the possibility that I am wrong. Assertions can be wrong on both sides. Mine however is backed my millions of others while yours are people who have "experiences"of past life memories. Well, that could be a bunch of "dreams" and self projections. The human mind is amazingly capable of projecting, even manifesting something we wish or obsess about.


Earthly life is hardship to most and this is the Buddhist philosophy, I am glad it is not for you. Others may feel different and as you grow older and wiser you may change your ideas too. I am little surprised, frankly that in a forum like this not more people supporting the existence of Karma. The silence is deafening.

...There may be reasons why you would select to be born into an alcoholic or abusive family. Some of it might be completely random, and some of it might not turn out the way people thought it would, sometimes people might pick something that gets them in over their heads.

 

[KenJ]

Being old enough to claim a shared lifetime, for a few years anyway, with Edgar Cayce, I will state for the record that I believe that karma is a valid measure of our experiences (or perhaps demonstrated learning) whereby we make decisions about what we might need in our next incarnations.


AOS, why would someone wish to incarnate as a person who experiences being bipolar?

 

[AOSpare]

KenJ,


You do not have a choice, unless you are high enough on the "food chain". Yes, there is a hierarchy(there is always someone who is more spiritually advanced). I accept some of the notions of some choices maybe given, albeit I have NOT had any memories in between lifetimes. But Karma rules. We all have a cross to bear at birth, one way or another. My bipolar disorder come to the surface when I attempted to study the occult and magic. Austin Spare was an artist and occultist, and what I did emulating it was a regression, as far as I understand it now. As a child I wanted to draw and be an artist like him and my life's goal was to create pictures, but that was not in the cards either (I had no talent).


So to sum it up, I did not choose to be bipolar because it is a heavy cross to bear.


P.S. Karma is a fact; as there is a thing called "instant" karma, just try it and rob a bank.

Being old enough to claim a shared lifetime, for a few years anyway, with Edgar Cayce, I will state for the record that I believe that karma is a valid measure of our experiences (or perhaps demonstrated learning) whereby we make decisions about what we might need in our next incarnations.
AOS, why would someone wish to incarnate as a person who experiences being bipolar?

 

[KenJ]

My comment about bipolar was because of an earlier comment where you stated that nobody would wish to be born into negative circumstances. I can understand where it could be beneficial for soul-growth to have these experiences even though they would seem to be "unpleasant".


Why would anyone want to be a triplegic, quadraplegic, paraplegic, or amputee? As a triplegic, I have definitely experienced things that would have been difficult in any other way. I wonder if my injury is because of negative karma or a method of gaining positive karma; I would prefer the latter.


A year or two before my injury, I told a friend that "I could make it as long as I had my head and right arm".


I actually made that statement in response to him telling me that another classmate had moved to Florida "because he could not make it here". That is one reason that I "know" that my disability was planned by me.

 

[AOSpare]

I'd like to think it is both(+/-).


You are here to learn, that is what Karma is meant for. To advance and never regress. It is not a punishment but a necessity. Our natural state is oneness, the only way to achieve that is to perfect ourselves. (I know it sounds New Agey, but that's how I feel.)

...I wonder if my injury is because of negative karma or a method of gaining positive karma; I would prefer the latter.

 

[KenJ]

It seems that we agree more than we disagree!


Many things are still unclear to me, that is one reason I'm reading as much as I am. Even though it is old info, I'm just now reading the Seth Material. I find it interesting that so many sources are saying such similar things. My Dad introduced me to the "Betty books" many years ago. Even though we did not have a close relationship, we shared some thoughts. And, unfortunately, I find that we share some attributes that I wish I had understood and changed much earlier. I carried along some attributes that I disliked in him that I did not recognize in myself.


Like you, I have had no pastlife regressions or memories of between-lives. I know that I have a guide that takes very good care of me and I have experienced "knowings" (or abilities) that I have not learned in my current lifetime.

 

[AOSpare]

KenJ,


I am glad that you posted. I like to agree more than to disagree!


Cheers.

It seems that we agree more than we disagree!
Many things are still unclear to me, that is one reason I'm reading as much as I am. Even though it is old info, I'm just now reading the Seth Material. I find it interesting that so many sources are saying such similar things. My Dad introduced me to the "Betty books" many years ago. Even though we did not have a close relationship, we shared some thoughts. And, unfortunately, I find that we share some attributes that I wish I had understood and changed much earlier. I carried along some attributes that I disliked in him that I did not recognize in myself.


Like you, I have had no pastlife regressions or memories of between-lives. I know that I have a guide that takes very good care of me and I have experienced "knowings" (or abilities) that I have not learned in my current lifetime.

 

[tanguerra]

... Again you say "Hindu dogma", this my fiend, is accumulation of Ancient Wisdom. You put down ancient beliefs of Tibet and cockily sure of your own so called "experience" is the only way. This is arrogant and closed minded...

I am aware how old this belief is (that karma is a 'law' and God - however you conceive her - is teaching / testing us / paying us back for past misdeeds) and how many people share it. There are other very old beliefs that many people share, such as that the Earth was created by God in 7 days. Earlier I wrote about the belief in the middle ages, held by people of great learning and scholarship, held in high esteem, that the stars were moved about in the sky by angels. Medical doctors once swore by the efficacy of leeches. Priests said that children who were not baptized were doomed to spend eternity in hell and the list goes on. People used to believe that human sacrifice would make it rain. People used to believe that sickness was caused by witches' curses.


Human knowledge would never progress if we just accepted what people said long ago, because it was very long ago and lots of people believed it.


People are free to believe what they want, but the fact that millions of people believe something for a very long time and have it on 'good authority', cuts no ice with me I'm afraid. I have seen many, many beliefs come and go in my 'time'. These days I prefer to think things through for myself, base conclusions on my own experience and the first hand accounts of others. I also read very widely and have been interested in this topic for my whole life, so have had quite a lot of time to think about it.

...I've posted my initial post to those are share the concept of Karma/Reincarnation or at least have open mind. I frankly could not care less about other's "experiences". I always offer the possibility that I am wrong. Assertions can be wrong on both sides. Mine however is backed my millions of others while yours are people who have "experiences"of past life memories. Well, that could be a bunch of "dreams" and self projections. The human mind is amazingly capable of projecting, even manifesting something we wish or obsess about.

So, you assert that you are a 'believer' in reincarnation and the 'law' of karma, but you doubt people recall past lives and think they might be imagining it?

Earthly life is hardship to most and this is the Buddhist philosophy, I am glad it is not for you. Others may feel different and as you grow older and wiser you may change your ideas too.

I'm not saying I don't have hardship, nobody has hardship, or I've never had any hardship. I think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm saying I don't think 'God' is causing all this 'hardship' for the sake of teaching us and helping us get closer to her, or whatever it is she is supposed to be up to.


I'm saying that 'hardships' are part of life yes indeed, but that many of them are caused by human actions - murders, wars, fighting, greed, selfishness and hate. It is not 'God' causing all this in my view. It's people. People have the power to stop the suffering if they had the will and stopped blaming all their problems on 'God'.


I am also somewhat doubtful if it is all part of some long term, coherent plan to make us 'perfect'. If so, it's not a very good or efficient plan is it?

 

[Demi]

I chose to be free. You can choose to remain in the past. I'll break my own prison walls if needed, but it seems you will be stuck there for a long time... maybe it is you who will see in a few lifetimes. Just sayin'...

concerning Krishnamurtas quote. Interesting but... the best explanation of Karma I have ever seen is that It is not punishment but a result of your own desires, due to the impressions you have, you will attract the things that you once desired. And if it looks bad to you now, it is because your desire-decision making has evolved some, and what you wanted, is no longer attractive. But the world is like a machine trying to please everyone, and all desires will get fulfilled eventually, so be careful what you wish for!
That means, it is all your friend,


God or whomever!


"It" wants you to be HAPPY! but tuff stuff if you said... hey I want this, and now you ended up THERE where you wanted to be say 500 years ago...


Someone brought up, but would someone agree on incarnating in a rotten village in Africa or as an outcast in India?


I think they would for one reason...


Maybe that person wants some challenge to learn compassion, so they have a desire to incarnate in a bad environment, to be "pushed" into learning it by necessity?


I have seen that the "law of karma" works instantly, other times it seems to work in a compassionate way... All my life I believed that people with my kind of past lives would incarnate on a pig farm as a pig... no idea why I thought that. So I asked to get an answer, why I am not a pig, LOL.. It occured to me that if I were, I would have hung around and wasted my time eating scraps, I would have had no awareness, and would not be able to make up for my mistakes from the past, but now I can and also I can help people, to do what I am doing, and that is why I did not come back as a pig... so that's it...

 

[tanguerra]

Yes. I've often wondered if what you 'wish for' in one life comes true in the next.


For instance I wrote about this in the Blitz thread. In that life I longed for something fairly simple - a home of my own, children and a nice, honest job in an office. I have all those things now. I also wished to have X in my life and I think we were planning to go to Australia and here we are.


In the first Poland life I wished to be a big strong soldier so I could get revenge on the bad men who killed my family. Next life - voila!


In a life in England as a servant, I dreamed of being able to sail away and see the world. I certainly wished to see X again. Next life - voila! The Blitz adventure may have followed directly on from this one.


In this life I often wish there was something I could do to 'save the world'. I've had some future flashes where I may actually get that wish.


I'm sure a lot of people make wishes about having enough to eat, being rich or safe or about their loved ones and so on. Famous people probably wish for privacy. Soldiers probably wish for peace. I'm sure a lot of people wish for bad things to happen to those who have wronged them as well.


So, yes, be careful what you wish for is always good advice!

 

[Eowyn]

Someone brought up, but would someone agree on incarnating in a rotten village in Africa or as an outcast in India?


I think they would for one reason...


Maybe that person wants some challenge to learn compassion, so they have a desire to incarnate in a bad environment, to be "pushed" into learning it by necessity?


I have seen that the "law of karma" works instantly, other times it seems to work in a compassionate way...

Yes, I already explained it that way... still, I don't see any law.

And if it looks bad to you now, it is because your desire-decision making has evolved some, and what you wanted, is no longer attractive. But the world is like a machine trying to please everyone, and all desires will get fulfilled eventually, so be careful what you wish for!
That means, it is all your friend,


God or whomever!


"It" wants you to be HAPPY! but tuff stuff if you said... hey I want this, and now you ended up THERE where you wanted to be say 500 years ago...

Yes, nice tale. But like I said, I need facts, not words.