Karma is not Punishment

[deborah]

I thought Ailish made an excellent point in another thread about Karma. I think this is an extended issue so I started a new thread. I hope this is OK with you Ailish. I would be interested in others thoughts.

All of humankind is subject to the law of karma. Karma simply means “action.” Every action has a reaction. But, in my opinion, karma is not a “punishment”, only a requirement that you experience all that you create. Ailish

Some people have suggested that we must experience everything, that all souls have at one time been good and evil, with all the wide ranges of emotions and thoughts that go along with these two scenarios.

I do not believe that anyone is perfect - or that we do not make mistakes. However, I have never seen myself killing people, being the murderer, the evil ruler, or the unruly slave owner. I have never seen myself rape someone, or maim an individual. I am no one special, I am just me.

Ailish's thoughts have brought something to light for me personally - OF COURSE! Consciousness is the creator - we create our realities. This does not mean I have to experience all other choices made by other souls on the other end of the spectrum. I could be aware of it in other ways. At least in my opinion.

What are your thoughts? Check the poll questions if you agree with the statement. You can have several choices.

 

[Ailish]

I think this is a great topic, Deborah.

This does not mean I have to experience all other choices made by other souls on the other end of the spectrum.

I couldn't agree more.

Some people have suggested that we must experience everything, that all souls have at one time been good and evil, with all the wide ranges of emotions and thoughts that go along with these two scenarios.

There are many different "ways of being." I am sure there is not one of us here who has not hurt another -- through thoughts, words or actions. Conversely, we have also been hurt by others. It is what we choose to do with those experiences that shapes who we are and what we continue to experience -- in this life, and in others.

For example -- if you were a victim in one life, it doesn't mean you are going to come back the next life and be the perpetrator. If you are holding thoughts of vengeance, hatred and anger inside of you, then that is most certainly what you will create for yourself. If you choose to accept the situation with compassion, love and understanding -- that is also what you will create. Could a victim not understand the depths of pain and sorrow it caused them to be put into such a situation? Could they not come back with full knowledge and understanding -- and choose to use that experience for the greater good? It's been my experience that they can -- and do.

I'm really looking forward to everyone's thoughts on this topic...and how everyone else sees and defines karma.

 

[vicky]

I agree. I don't have to be shot to believe that it hurts. There are a lot of things one can learn from observing human behavior. I believe that our futures are fluid and maleable, changing every time we change our responses to life's situations.
Vicky

 

[tiltjlp]

I very much believe that our spirituality is inwardly self-contained, although it can be and is influenced from without. A major truth for me is that Reality is whatever I preceive it to be.

John

 

[HelplessDancer]

I've long believed in the Stoic idea that everything happens for a reason, and that if something happens, it was meant to have happened. However, since we don't know our future (unless one is gutsy enough to look into the twelfth house of one's astrological chart), I guess it could be argued that we're freely choosing to do things that are our fate, since we don't know what we're predestined to do. Although that doesn't explain unforeseen events of horrible magnitude, like the Shoah, the Armenian Genocide, or the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It's the reason why some people feel that people who died in such horrific events tend to come back sooner than people usually take to reincarnate, because their karmic mission for that lifetime wasn't finished yet. I also believe that those who commit great evil, like Josef Mengele, Pol Pot, or Atatürk, are destined to come back in really bad future incarnations, even as lowly as an ant, as punishment for massive past sins. And I also believe the theory that says that someone who is, for example, a racist in one life needs to come back as a member of the group s/he was prejudiced against, to learn how it feels when the shoe is on the other foot.

 

[curious_girl]

Karma is definitely not punishment.
It is therapy to the soul.
It's about becoming aware,
about living from our hearts,
and making the right choices.
(At least for the time being )

Curious Girl.

 

[Charles Stuart]

Hi again,

I have come to think of reincarnation as an evolutionary process towards greater understanding and enlightenment, each life becoming a progress in relation to a previous life. Under this concept, it would be unnatural for someone who has already reached greater enlightenment to return as an evil person or even as a creature of lesser consciousness than we can have as human beings.

As far as I can understand the process, the concept of action and reaction does not mean that we have to undergo what others have chosen to. Each individual soul / spirit is unique and unique in their experiences and progress.

The sense and pain of loss that one might inflict upon another in a certain lifetime, perhaps by taking someone's life, does not necessarily mean that this person will have to be killed by the one he harmed previously for the karmic cycle to be fulfilled. The loss may come disguised in another way such as a divorce, the loss of a child...

What seems to be a universal truth, however, is that no action goes unaccounted for. This seems to be the way our souls / spirits and even the universe balance themselves out. No evil deed goes without consequence (though punishment might be too harsh a word to describe the process).

This concept in itself seems to carry the notion of some form of justice, which to me is a clear indication of the presence and existence of a Greater Intelligence in the grand order of things...

 

[Susie]

I am re-reading Reincarnation: The Missing Link in Christianity by Elizabeth Claire Prophet and found this wonderful quote on karma as it relates to past lives:

Today, the word karma is used a fashionable substitute for fate. But, belief in karma is not fatalism. Karma, according to the Hindus, can cause people to be born with certain tendancies or characteristics, but it does not force them to act according to those characteristics. Karma does not negate free will....the deeds do indeed determine the manner of rebrith but not the actions of the reborn individual- karma provides the situation, not the response to the situation. (Pg 44)

A nice explanation of karma...for me, this affirms my belief that I am responsible for all of my thoughts, actions, beliefs, no matter how they originate, and that consciousness creates in the present- up to this very moment.

I believe that we are here to both learn, and that our actions can teach others. My mother always said that teaching occurs through example and that we can learn from others actions.

 

[Ailish]

What a great explanation, Susie!

Thanks for sharing that -- I always look forward to your posts.

My mother always said that teaching occurs through example and that we can learn from others actions.

My grandma always told me the same thing. :thumbsup:

Ailish

 

[Charles Stuart]

Hi everyone,

Very nice, Susie...:thumbsup:

Yesterday I had a very nice mystical experience that "coincidentally" relates to this topic: I was at the beach with a friend when he "ïncorporated" a spiritual guide, who said to me: "Don't interpret what you are going through as punishment, consider it as a purification...

 

[deborah]

HI Charles!

"Don't interpret what you are going through as punishment, consider it as a purification...

Very profound!!!!!!! And IMO - right on the money.

I have been away in Italy - traveling for the past three weeks. So I have a lot of catching up to do. : angel

I have enjoyed this thread and members input; thank you!

 

[snooziums]

While karma does strive for balance, I still believe that the divine gift of freewill can override it. Free will is a powerful gift, and some have used it for good, while others for lesser proposes. But, I think that the individual soul must choose its own lessons, so if something does not fit in what the soul chooses, then it should not have to experience it.

I am not sure if what I said made any sense. So, I will return to being shy.

 

[jackh]

It's been my experience that what our emotions tell us to back off from and run, soul will want to jump into with both feet and body following to get the experience under "it's" belt. That's how soul learns.

One way to decide if you want to go through with something is to ask 3 questions: Is it true?
Is it kind?
Is it necessary?

Sometimes it is hard to apply all 3 but the last 2 almost always apply.

Jack

 

[Mousie]

I am not altogether sure I believe in karma in the sense it's generally understood.

Has anyone ever considered the possibility that a person can reincarnate into the same life over and over until you "get it right"? That might account for a sense of deja vu in certain instances. Maybe the reason someone feels they've already done/said/experienced a certain reality is because they actually have; they're simply rewound to the beginning (so to speak) to play it out again.

I'm not saying you won't reincarnate into someone else at a later time. But I'm fairly sure you have to get each life completely "right" before you're given the option to move on to another. Karma in that sense would be repeating the same mistakes (and living with the consequences) until you make different choices within a single life (creating a new reality as it were).

By the way, I also think it's possible that you may be relocated to a earlier time within your life (if you only need to repeat parts). Reality is not as solid as most people believe it to be; it's malleable.

I have reasons for thinking this might be the case. I don't ordinarily discuss the events that led me to this conclusion. Actually, I'd rather not. But suffice it to say, I think this might actually be closer to the mark. Karma stays within one lifetime I'm pretty sure of that -- it all hinges on choices.

Then I'm pretty sure you have the option of picking another life (a packet of learning if you will) to work your way through different lessons. But it's an option that you don't necessarily have to exercise.

 

[snooziums]

Has anyone ever considered the possibility that a person can reincarnate into the same life over and over until you "get it right"? That might account for a sense of deja vu in certain instances. Maybe the reason someone feels they've already done/said/experienced a certain reality is because they actually have; they're simply rewound to the beginning (so to speak) to play it out again.

This is an interesting idea, that I have given some thought to, however, in many cases it is hard to replay out a life again, with so much change in the world right now.

I know that for me, it would be impossible to replay this life out again, since some of the events that shaped it, and the places are long gone, and will never happen again.

Also, the year 2012 is fast approaching, where the world shall ascend to a higher level, this repeating the same life over on this world might not be possible, so any karma lessons will need to be learned fast, or else they will be superseded by a higher level of karma that will be quite different.

 

[deborah]

This made me smile Jackh -

One way to decide if you want to go through with something is to ask 3 questions: Is it true?
Is it kind? Is it necessary?

Thanks for sharing !

 

[freewill]

Very interesting ,,
but.. ehm,, Karma always puzzles me. I believe "Good deeds bear good fruits" But to what extent is this true? I mean how could we determine whether an action is right or wrong? Certainly killing people is wrong, then what about eating somebody's food without acknowledging them? Could this also be subject to Karma? And in what way will it be expressed?

But nevertheless, karma seems to be the most plausible law governing reincarnation.

Another quick question, why is it that some people could remember past lives while the majority can not? What kind of life would it be for those who know about their past lives?


Cheers...
: angel

 

[Karoliina]

Welcome to the forum Freewill!

I think we're doing good and the right things when our conscience is clear - to put it shortly.

I believe some people remember past lives spontaneously, because they need to, or because they're just more open spiritually by nature. Many people however (me included) don't really remember spontaneously, but in these cases remembering is about desire to learn and grow - and that desire is becoming stronger and stronger in more and more several people in these times I believe.

Karoliina

 

[Ailish]

Hi freewill,

Welcome to the forum.

I believe "Good deeds bear good fruits"

I agree, but to me this is simply "Positive actions create positive reactions." I don't think there is a big "punishment" awaiting us in another life.

then what about eating somebody's food without acknowledging them? Could this also be subject to Karma? And in what way will it be expressed?

I guess that would depend entirely upon the situation. The person giving the food could be forgiving and compassionate -- and may keep giving regardless of not being acknowledged for it...or the person could turn away and give the food to someone who appreciates the gesture. There are so many ways it could play out, and so many different people that could be affected by the one act...it's hard to say.


You may enjoy reading these threads:

How does karma work

Why don't most people consciously remember past lives?


I hope you enjoy the discussions here!

Ailish

 

[Monica Gabriell]

My karma

Do any other members have something to add to the discussion?

Hi everybody!,
It's good to be back here after a few days "off".
Well, new thoughts... I don't know if this is new, but for me, I'm still battling to understand karma.
I think karma is the situation we are in... determined by what we were!!!. I mean, we are here to learn, teach, contemplate, get rewards for good things, and atone for anything that wasn't so right.
I don't believe in "punishment", but in justice and betterment
When we have done the incorrect, we are here, perhaps, to do service to those we wronged, help them and learn... learn, especially, NOT to do it again, and that our actions DO HAVE consequences. How long for the atornment to last?. I don't know, it depends on how long it takes to make amends and restitution. Then we move on.
Having said all this, I'm still very confused in many ways. For example, I cringe at the state of the world, especially in moments like now, with war raging on in the Middle East, and my daughter terrified for her boyfriend who is stranded in Lebanon with some other 3000 fellow Australians. I feel that God sometimes doesn't listen, and have abandoned us. Why, otherwise, all this madness???. And what have we done, that we are still paying the price for the countless wars and bloodshed in history?.
And I wonder: if this continues, will we ever be free of this plague, war????
A penny for your thoughts.
Monica

 

[tiltjlp]

Monica, as I understand Karma, you seem to have a very good idea what it's all about. The problem might be that while each of us is governed by Karma, the world itself isn't. When we look at the larger picture, the effects of Free Will might be the magnet. Karma is spiritual, while Free Will is worldly, hence the struggle, and hence the fear, worry, and too often, hate. I pray that everyone stranded in Lebanon will be safe, as well as the entire planet. If war and hatred are caused by bad Karma, it would seem that the scales of balance would have been evened by now.

John

 

[Charles Stuart]

Hi Monica,

I also think you put the issue very nicely and on target.

As to your question, my view is that the people of the world still have to undergo A LOT of balancing out of negative karma, hence what still goes round in terms of wars, etc. Plus the fact that karma is not only burned off, but also more and new negative karma is generated in the bad choices of free will, and so the process goes on...

 

[MATT]

The basic law of karma states that we reap what we sow. We are responsible for our thoughts and actions and we must see and clearly understand the the result of our thoughts and actions because what we put out comes back to us . This is also the law of cause and effect. This is how we learn to create responsibly. The reason we need to learn this lesson well is because where we are going at the higher dimensions what we think manifests instantanously.
So karma is not punishment but a tool for learning to create responsibly with our mind.This is a prime lesson that this planet insists that we master before we can move on as a species .

All karma starts with an idividual but this can build to family, group, national and planetary karma if others buy into the wrong thoughts and actions. No one is an island unto itself. If we invade another country without any provocation to us, we must make amends. This is country karma.When we violate the rights and freedoms of others , everyone in our country is affected.Ultimately all lessons from various karma are learned within self .

 

[Ailish]

Hi Monica,

Nice to see you back again.

I feel that God sometimes doesn't listen, and have abandoned us. Why, otherwise, all this madness???. And what have we done, that we are still paying the price for the countless wars and bloodshed in history?.

The question that physicist David Bohm asked so many times was, "Has humanity taken a wrong turn somewhere in the past, which has brought about endless division, conflict and destruction?"

He confirms this when he talks about "the corruption of mankind," which was caused by

"the pollution which has accumulated over the ages…in the nonmanifested consciousness of mankind, which we could call the sorrow of mankind because it leads to all this violence, corruption, disorder, self-deception…"

Bohm also says "I think that this present (…pragmatic) view of science has contributed considerably to the disorder in the brain. The origin of the chaos in human relationships is in our fragmented, atomistic…untruthful way of thinking."

We can only comprehend truth to the extent to which it resonates with some portion of already perceived reality. However, we are capable of raising our level of awareness, enlarging our consciousness.

According to Dr. William Tiller, a Stanford professor for over 30 years in the Department of Material Science,

"By the entity's thoughts, attitudes and actions, transformational changes occur in the dense and subtle matter, which can produce a refined structure in the matter."

As a result of his life's work, Dr.Tiller arrived at this conclusion,

"We have come from advanced societies whose special technologies suited the great mental capacities of the inhabitants and we are heading back in that direction. We have come from societies where the inhabitants reliably sensed deeper dimensions of the universe than we presently do, so that they readily manipulated space, time and matter, and we are heading back in the same direction."

Basically, I think your question about wars all leads back to what Deborah was saying -- that "Consciousness is the creator - we create our realities."

It does not mean that someone chooses to fight in a war -- but many negative thoughts from many people have created the situation that is manifesting itself in a war.

I do believe that change is possible, but it will take raising the consciousness of many to achieve that.

Bohm says:

"…it is possible now for a number of individuals who are in close relations and who can trust each other to establish a one-mind of that whole set of individuals. In other words, that that consciousness is one, acting as one. If you had as many as ten people, or a hundred people, who could really be that way, they would have a power immensely beyond one…that would begin to ignite this whole consciousness of mankind…This is absolutely what has to be done."

Ailish

 

[Phoenix]

from the dark side...

(please note: this post contains generalizations)

I feel that God sometimes doesn't listen, and have abandoned us. Why, otherwise, all this madness???. And what have we done, that we are still paying the price for the countless wars and bloodshed in history?.
And I wonder: if this continues, will we ever be free of this plague, war????

One thing about having been "evil" as well as "good", is that it gives you a look into humanity's dark side-the place that most people don't want to look, and often pretend doesn't exist (i.e. 'the devil made me do it'). Human beings are not inherently "!00% good", nor are they inherently "100% evil", but a mixture of both. Based on that mixture, human beings sometimes make choices to help other people, and sometimes they make choices to harm other people.

We will never be free of violence, bloodshed and wars-until humanity learns the lesson that choosing to reach for a weapon to solve a difference of opinion is not the best way. "Might makes right" is an outdated medieval belief system.

And, until we stop oppressing people, because when people feel they have no voice, and no choice, they become filled with anger and hatred for those who are oppressing them and will fight back with rocks, bottles, and anything else comes to hand.

If humanity evolves beyond hatred, savagery, butchery and violence, then and only then, will we see this change take place. Until that time, crime, war, genocide, and other acts of violence will take place on an increasingly escalating scale-as we have already seen.

This is not our being abandoned by a deity, but suffering the consequences of our own bad choices. We choose to react to another person's actions with a curse, or a threat, or an assault. We choose to respond to provocation with missiles and bombs. We choose to invade sovereign nations.

Until we all choose differently, and not just some of us, this will continue.

I also believe that those who commit great evil, like Josef Mengele, Pol Pot, or Atatürk, are destined to come back in really bad future incarnations, even as lowly as an ant, as punishment for massive past sins.

In ant philosophy, is there a rule that if you are an evil ant, you have to incarnate as a lower form of life such as a human?

This is a common theory, and although it makes people feel better to believe that "evil" people will be punished horribly in future incarnations, it's just not borne out in practice.

But, who needs a third-party punishment provider, as we can always punish ourselves with our own self-destructive choices.

And I also believe the theory that says that someone who is, for example, a racist in one life needs to come back as a member of the group s/he was prejudiced against, to learn how it feels when the shoe is on the other foot.

Another theory that is not borne out in practice. The problem with a racist coming back as a member of a different race who is then subjected to racism in order to learn a lesson, is that race-based hatred is not limited to any one race. And hatred is universal.

And thus, it is entirely possible to be a white racist who is incarnated in a race that is persecuted by white racists, and thus learn how it feels to be persecuted, and then repeat their pattern by becoming a black racist. The hand is still in the air, it's just a clenched fist instead of a party salute.

Racism is something you have to cure yourself of. That is a choice you have to make. To hate people based on their perceived differences, or not.

Phoenix

 

[Ailish]

Hi Phoenix,

Racism is something you have to cure yourself of. That is a choice you have to make.

I couldn't agree more with you on that one.

This is not our being abandoned by a deity, but suffering the consequences of our own bad choices. We choose to react to another person's actions with a curse, or a threat, or an assault. We choose to respond to provocation with missiles and bombs. We choose to invade sovereign nations.

Until we all choose differently, and not just some of us, this will continue.

Well said, Phoenix. I think we all need to take responsibility for not just the state of our life, our family or our country -- but the state of the entire world.

Ailish

 

[Monica Gabriell]

Choice

Hi everybody,
and thanks for the many replies!!. I'm grateful to you all!!.
A little bit about choice: it is true that we have choices and may use it either way, for goodness or just the opposite. Yes, SOMETIMES WE HAVE CHOICES...
However, it seems to me (for VERY good reasons!), that sometimes we DON'T seem to have much choice.
For example, you may be attacked and you have to defend yourself. Nowhere is it written that we should become victims of others (others being just common people or more complex structures). So, we have to create more karma, whether we like it or not.
When I was in my country of origin, Argentina, many years ago, a great national tragedy took place. I won't go into that, enough to say that many thousands were killed by a dictatorial, NOT ELECTED government, which took power by force and turned itself against their own citizens. I, for example, was one that had to flee with my then very young family. At least we all survived, although we had to endure hell on earth for 10 years in a hostile country, until we were blessed enough to come to Australia, where we have become Australian citizens (God bless this country indeed!!).
Others were, definitely, not so lucky, and they are no more.
So, where was choice here?. And where is choice now, for those caught up in crossfire, innocent as they maybe?.
I do NOT believe that they are "paying for past sins", no.
I can only guess that there is great evil in this world, that -as someone said in another post- we have gone "wrong" somewhere, and we choose to come here -reincarnate here- for reasons I still don't understand. Maybe our discarnate souls do, but while I'm still here I am just bewildered.
As I have suffered injustice and crime in my own flesh and blood, I cannot theorize too much about anything. The pain is still great, especially when I see the same old thing happening all over again, everywhere in this world.
Sorry if I seem pessimistic. This is just me today.
Monica

 

[deborah]

HI Pinkydinky,

The end of the Mayan Calendar is scheduled for December 21, 2012. Calendars, in general, do not end. The whole purpose of developing a calendar is to predict future events based upon the cyclical nature of the world. To keep such things as agriculture in line with the seasons.

But the idea that everything is coming to some sort of completion, i.e. the end of cycles, the end of days, the end... period, doen't compute when it comes to the idea of a calendar.

The Mayans did not elaborate in great detail about what would happen in 2012 A.D.; there has been a lot of speculation though. You can do an internet search and get details.

 

[MATT]

Monica Gabriell]Hi everybody,
and thanks for the many replies!!. I'm grateful to you all!!.
A little bit about choice: it is true that we have choices and may use it either way, for goodness or just the opposite. Yes, SOMETIMES WE HAVE CHOICES...
However, it seems to me (for VERY good reasons!), that sometimes we DON'T seem to have much choice. For example, you may be attacked and you have to defend yourself. Nowhere is it written that we should become victims of others (others being just common people or more complex structures). So, we have to create more karma, whether we like it or not.

Dear Monica

I understand and empathize with you completely. You are right in saying that at our earthly level or personality level , sometime we appear to have limited choices or no choices at all in avoiding what happens to us . However we do have choice in how we react, face and deal with the circumstances that we are experiencing. Sometime that is the lesson namely. to experience hardship and unfairness in life without becoming bitter ,hateful and revengeful toward those who caused our loss. To face life head on and to make the best of our difficult circumstances. Prehaps in the past we did similar harm to others in a parallel life.

I too had hardships that I could not avoid . I lost my father, my home , my country before i was 5. My family was bombed upon countless times and I find the current practice of bombing smaller nations to destruction for minor disagreements or infractions totally undefenceable . Before i was 5 years old ,my contry was overun three times by major powers.An intersting fact about the city that I was born in . It has been destroyed, invaded or burned at least fifty times in its history by larger major powers of the world .

But all life is not doom and gloom. As a result of a courageous decision and choice that my mother made to flee from the various invading armies we got a new start in a new world and I have experienced a wonderful life in country that values peace morer than war.

Sometime we do have limited choices as my mother had , to stay or flee, but they may be absolutely critical. Life is sometime many little choices , the result of which may make differnce between misery or hope. Some time we all feel a little pessimistic Focus on joy and it will manifest in your life

There is no man who hates but that hatred is reflected outward and made physical, and there is no man who loves but that love is reflected outward and made physical.

 

[tiltjlp]

Monica and Matt, your posts were roller coasters of emotions, with disgust with major powers, and happiness for the triumph of your families through many horrible experiences. The plight and tragedy you both tell is why I have never held a gun of any sort, and never will.

John