Monica Gabriell
Senior Registered
MATT said:
Karma is not Punishment
- Thread starter deborah
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Monica Gabriell
Senior Registered
Forgiveness
Forgiveness is a process, that may take a long time if it's going to be REAL forgiveness. It is the end result of going through grief, experiencing all the emotions that go with it, being it pain, anger, bargaining, denial, etc (Elizabeth Kubler-Ross). Only after all these, we can "LET GO". And forgiveness, allow me to say, is NOT to let the offender "off the hook", but LIBERATION for the offended.
As wonderful as it is, we should never try to impose forgiveness on people who are experiencing the very normal (and healing!!) grieving process after a loss.No matter how long the grieving process takes. If we do, we damage them, adding another burden to the already almost unbearable loss: feeling inadequate because they can't feel like forgiving...yet!.
Grieving human beings (and even pets for what matter), NEED to express themselves, say what they feel, even if that makes other people unconfortable.
However, unfortunately, everybody immediately jumps to forgiveness when facing the grieving... which makes them feel even worse, not understood and isolated. It seems that we don't even have a right to feel the way we do. And all, sometimes, only because others have a poor understanding of feelings, or because they feel unconfortable (maybe because of OWN issues?).
So please, think about this and try to have empathy. Please try to see a bit beyond the surface. Much damage can be done, even with good intentions.
Forgiveness is a process, that may take a long time if it's going to be REAL forgiveness. It is the end result of going through grief, experiencing all the emotions that go with it, being it pain, anger, bargaining, denial, etc (Elizabeth Kubler-Ross). Only after all these, we can "LET GO". And forgiveness, allow me to say, is NOT to let the offender "off the hook", but LIBERATION for the offended.
As wonderful as it is, we should never try to impose forgiveness on people who are experiencing the very normal (and healing!!) grieving process after a loss.No matter how long the grieving process takes. If we do, we damage them, adding another burden to the already almost unbearable loss: feeling inadequate because they can't feel like forgiving...yet!.
Grieving human beings (and even pets for what matter), NEED to express themselves, say what they feel, even if that makes other people unconfortable.
However, unfortunately, everybody immediately jumps to forgiveness when facing the grieving... which makes them feel even worse, not understood and isolated. It seems that we don't even have a right to feel the way we do. And all, sometimes, only because others have a poor understanding of feelings, or because they feel unconfortable (maybe because of OWN issues?).
So please, think about this and try to have empathy. Please try to see a bit beyond the surface. Much damage can be done, even with good intentions.
Charles Stuart
Senior Registered
Hi Monica,
Perhaps those who have no choice are in the circumstance precisely because it IS the karma they must undergo? It must also be remembered that karma does not expire in one life, but can ceratinly come upon an individual in the next. I believe the process is far more complex than we may think. A child that comes with a physical handicap is not necessarily in that situation because this child's soul is paying off negative karma for past mistakes. It can also be a conscious choice made by the soul/spirit because of a need on the parents' part to learn a lesson in love.
I believe the process is not as straightforward as "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth". I think it is far more elaborate than that... In the end, it seems to break down to, not punishment, but means by which a soul/spirit might learn and progress by living out the emotions correlated to the learning process it must undergo...
Perhaps those who have no choice are in the circumstance precisely because it IS the karma they must undergo? It must also be remembered that karma does not expire in one life, but can ceratinly come upon an individual in the next. I believe the process is far more complex than we may think. A child that comes with a physical handicap is not necessarily in that situation because this child's soul is paying off negative karma for past mistakes. It can also be a conscious choice made by the soul/spirit because of a need on the parents' part to learn a lesson in love.
I believe the process is not as straightforward as "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth". I think it is far more elaborate than that... In the end, it seems to break down to, not punishment, but means by which a soul/spirit might learn and progress by living out the emotions correlated to the learning process it must undergo...
I suggest a simple experiment. You can do it with anyone, say your daughter. Stand near each other and start talking to each other. Step away from each other after every sentence is said. You will soon find that you are unable to listen to each other. I think it is the same with god. He listens when the speaker is close enough to him.Monica Gabriell said:
John, what I see in your statement is a logical fallacy. If each one of us is governed by karma, all of us have to be. Those of us with background in science can spot this fallacy easily.tiltjlp said:
No one can escape karma easily. That is how we create our circumstance at any time. Choice inevitably leads to karma and we are always making choices.Monica Gabriell said:
As for wars, they are caused by people who choose to make wars. It may be bad choice but it is the choice of some people. Usually most of the people who make this choice have not even heard of something called karma. Do you think those who are now fighting in Lebanon know anything about karma?
John
You are doing the right thing with respect to guns . In my opinion no amount of guns will make us safe . On the world scale , we have so many weapons now that there is an enviornmental ,storage and disposal problem of immense proportions . Yet we seem to be more fearful than ever of attacks .Here is what Seth said on this topic . This may not directly relate to reincarnation but learning to think and create clearly in this world is part of the thinking process that we must all change and master at the personality level before we can move on . The constant tit for tat method of settling disputes has gotten us nowhere.
You have an entire civilization and world set up about those beliefs I have just given you--that the universe is not safe...that you must defend yourselves from enemies that come from without, and, worse of all, from enemies that are within. As long as you believe that you dwell in a universe that is a threat, you must defend yourself against it....The official line of consciousness forms a world about it and you perceive and experience that world...while you devote yourself to that official line of consciousness the world will always appear the same - evil, disastrous, bound only for destruction...You need not say "The universe is safe" for at your present level, that will only enrage you. You say instead, "I live in a Safe Universe,” and so you shall. And those defenses that you set up against threats will crumble, for they will not be needed...The most I can do is to acquaint you with the authority of your own psyche - to give you a trust in the nature of your being. For, if you trust what you are, you can never go wrong in whatever terms you use. You can fly through belief systems as a butterfly flies through back yards.
Ailish's thoughts have brought something to light for me personally - OF COURSE! Consciousness is the creator - we create our realities. This does not mean I have to experience all other choices made by other souls on the other end of the spectrum. I could be aware of it in other ways. At least in my opinion.
What are your thoughts? Check the poll questions if you agree with the statement. You can have several choices.
[/QUOTE]
Deborah
Coming back again to your original thread I think above all we are meant to experience the cause and effect our own thoughts and actions. We best learn on an individual level .However we do not live as isolated islands. As any special group, family, community, nation and even humanity as a whole, we can have group and collective consciousness that also thinks and acts on some common causes whether for the betterment or detriment of the group. They are also meant to see and experience the end product of their collective thought form or action. Some time we are as observers only, sometime we experience the acts of others indirectly and some time we are direct participants. Not all actions and thoughts are negative however. Mozart‘s soul had developed his talent for music over countless lifetimes and many incarnations in music. He experienced and created his music but millions of others are also experiencing his music with him .When a nation develops a consistent non –violent approach to solving disputes we all learn from that experience even though the participants of the peace process experienced it directly. I think at the soul level we individually or collectively plan these third dimensional plays to experince and learn from these plays and sometime to set aside accumulated karma.Some time we can choose whether to experience someone else's actions. Sometime we do not have choice as our soul has already set in motion our involvement.
What are your thoughts? Check the poll questions if you agree with the statement. You can have several choices.
[/QUOTE]Deborah
Coming back again to your original thread I think above all we are meant to experience the cause and effect our own thoughts and actions. We best learn on an individual level .However we do not live as isolated islands. As any special group, family, community, nation and even humanity as a whole, we can have group and collective consciousness that also thinks and acts on some common causes whether for the betterment or detriment of the group. They are also meant to see and experience the end product of their collective thought form or action. Some time we are as observers only, sometime we experience the acts of others indirectly and some time we are direct participants. Not all actions and thoughts are negative however. Mozart‘s soul had developed his talent for music over countless lifetimes and many incarnations in music. He experienced and created his music but millions of others are also experiencing his music with him .When a nation develops a consistent non –violent approach to solving disputes we all learn from that experience even though the participants of the peace process experienced it directly. I think at the soul level we individually or collectively plan these third dimensional plays to experince and learn from these plays and sometime to set aside accumulated karma.Some time we can choose whether to experience someone else's actions. Sometime we do not have choice as our soul has already set in motion our involvement.
Charles Stuart
Senior Registered
Hi John,
On this topic there was an interesting case here in Brazil some years ago:
There was a dreadful fire in a building in the state of São Paulo that took many lives. Relatives of some of the people who had died in the fire went to see a very famous medium here in Brazil called Chich Xavier, who explained to them that those who had died in the fire, according to what they informed, had made a collective choice of dying in this way because they had all taken part, centuries ago, in a Christian army during the Crusades that had set fire to a fortress and burned several people alive.
According to this version, it seems there is a need by the soul/spirit to undergo that which it imprinted upon another. My belief is that this is the reason for: "Do unto another as you wish another to do unto you". When we inflict pain upon another soul/spirit, perhaps because of our interconnectiveness, it seems that we are karmically obliged to undergo the same experience or something similar.
Another point for thought is that, according to the Spiritist and the African Candomblé or Umbanda lines, there is what is called a "demand". In other words, this means that a disincarnate soul/spirit who holds a grudge against an incarnate soul/spirit might seek revenge upon this incarnate soul, interfering as an "obsessor entity" upon this person (which for centuries has often been interpreted as "demonic possession" or "being under the influence of the devil"). Apparently, even when the soul/spirit is incarnate, and it seems this very often happens, this incarnate soul/spirit might also hold a grudge, trapped in its subconscious, against another incarnate soul that, given the right conditions or circumstances, will lash out against this person triggered by some motive.
When we think about our "consciousnesses creating", I think we must also remember that the consciousness of others is also at work, interconnected, influencing and even interfering with our own.
What do you think?
On this topic there was an interesting case here in Brazil some years ago:
There was a dreadful fire in a building in the state of São Paulo that took many lives. Relatives of some of the people who had died in the fire went to see a very famous medium here in Brazil called Chich Xavier, who explained to them that those who had died in the fire, according to what they informed, had made a collective choice of dying in this way because they had all taken part, centuries ago, in a Christian army during the Crusades that had set fire to a fortress and burned several people alive.
According to this version, it seems there is a need by the soul/spirit to undergo that which it imprinted upon another. My belief is that this is the reason for: "Do unto another as you wish another to do unto you". When we inflict pain upon another soul/spirit, perhaps because of our interconnectiveness, it seems that we are karmically obliged to undergo the same experience or something similar.
Another point for thought is that, according to the Spiritist and the African Candomblé or Umbanda lines, there is what is called a "demand". In other words, this means that a disincarnate soul/spirit who holds a grudge against an incarnate soul/spirit might seek revenge upon this incarnate soul, interfering as an "obsessor entity" upon this person (which for centuries has often been interpreted as "demonic possession" or "being under the influence of the devil"). Apparently, even when the soul/spirit is incarnate, and it seems this very often happens, this incarnate soul/spirit might also hold a grudge, trapped in its subconscious, against another incarnate soul that, given the right conditions or circumstances, will lash out against this person triggered by some motive.
When we think about our "consciousnesses creating", I think we must also remember that the consciousness of others is also at work, interconnected, influencing and even interfering with our own.
What do you think?
tiltjlp
A Recycled Soul
Thank you for the new information Charles. The wonderful thing about the Internet is being able to discuss these matters with friends from around the world. Simply being exposed to differing opinions, beliefs, and traditions gives us a chance to expand or knowledge. What I would wonder about in the fire you mention, did the individuals have the ability to decide to be involved, or was the matter beyond their control? That alone would impact my ideas on Free Will.
As for the Spiritist and the African Candomblé or Umbanda, I have no doubt about holding a grudge. I have had people hold grudges against me that I felt were wrong. And recently, I acted on a grudge I held against someone, and I was most unreasonable about it all. I still feel I was right about what caused the rift, but wrong in holding the grudge, and very wrong in hounding him so much. At the time my near rage made it impossible to change my actions until I was forced to change. So again, thank you for giving more to think about. And now I have a question for everyone.
Closing in on 60, and having diabetes and very severe arthritis, I see pain as a gift, and I offer my pain as atonement for my various misdeeds. No, I haven't done anything horribly wrong, but I feel Karma is a balancing act, and chronic pain can help wash away the bad Karma of a lifetime. Any thoughts would be most welcome.
John
As for the Spiritist and the African Candomblé or Umbanda, I have no doubt about holding a grudge. I have had people hold grudges against me that I felt were wrong. And recently, I acted on a grudge I held against someone, and I was most unreasonable about it all. I still feel I was right about what caused the rift, but wrong in holding the grudge, and very wrong in hounding him so much. At the time my near rage made it impossible to change my actions until I was forced to change. So again, thank you for giving more to think about. And now I have a question for everyone.
Closing in on 60, and having diabetes and very severe arthritis, I see pain as a gift, and I offer my pain as atonement for my various misdeeds. No, I haven't done anything horribly wrong, but I feel Karma is a balancing act, and chronic pain can help wash away the bad Karma of a lifetime. Any thoughts would be most welcome.
John
Phoenix
Forgot to play nice
Charles Stuart said:
Wonder if that's why all of those people died in the nightclub fire in Rhode Island a couple of years ago. Not because using pyrotechnics in a nightclub is a really stupid idea or because the insulation was more flammable than allowed, or someone paid off the building inspector (hey, it is Rhode Island, after all), but because they chose to die that way to burn off some karmic debt...
...at a White Snake concert...headbanging their way to karmic goodliness...Rock on to heaven, dudes!
I've run across the theory before, applied to the Holocaust. That supposedly there was some collective pre-incarnation decision made among all 6 million of the Jewish people who died, to engage in some sort of self-sacrifice for karmic reasons.
This is usually met with outrage and scorn-Rabbi Gershom had some rather pointed remarks about that theory in his book. I agree with him. It takes all of the accountability for bad choices and actions off the people who made them, and puts it squarely on the shoulders of the victims. Where it does not belong.
Although these sorts of theories make the living who are griefstricken by the deaths of their relatives feel better-the deaths happened not because fires happen, or because some people made stupid decisions, but because of a decision made by the souls to die that way to balance out their karma. And instead of being a senseless tragedy, it becomes some sort of a fairy tale.
Senseless death happens. Tragedy happens. Horrific acts of brutality happen.
Before karma entered the vocabulary of the West, these things were attributed to "God's will". The Lord moves in mysterious ways, and all that. But now, instead of blaming it all on God, we can point our fingers at karma.
Phoenix
Charles Stuart
Senior Registered
tiltjlp said:
From what was said, if we consider it as true (although Chico Xavier was famed for always being "right on spot" - He often would psychograph messages from deceased people to their relatives containing information that only the relatives and the deceased could know about), my conclusion is that yes, they did indeed make a conscious choice. Whether it is the same with all such cases is a different kettle of fish.
tiltjlp said:
I think you might be right, John, although personally it saddens me that "growth" must come with suffering and pain.
PHOENIX said:
Yes, but the concept does bring some sense and purpose to what otherwise would seem a "senseless tragedy", don't you think? In Spiritist lines, at least, it is said that "NOTHING happens without a purpose", and that "There is no such thing as a coincidence".
However, in regards to the Jews in WWII, even if it is true that they made such a collective choice, this does not redeem the fault of those who committed such a barbarity (remember, I was there too...
), for they also had the free will to choose NOT to go through with it. I know that, in my own personal case, I have even had it said to me that in my last lifetime, as Karl Heiss, a Luftwaffa pilot in WWII, I was guilty of "omission"...Charles
Charles Stuart
Senior Registered
Hi again, John.
Regarding the person you mentioned against whom you held a grudge and apparently made him suffer, this is precisely the kind of situation I am referring to. YOU imposed a balancing of negative karma upon this person. However, if he had made a right choice using his free will, he could have avoided this.
But, I still see it that we do not have the right to do so. It is not whithin OUR right to impose pain upon another, for in this way we can be perpetuating a karmic cycle. The breaking free from such situations is by forgiving, something we should all aim at and strive to achieve...:thumbsup: : angel
Regarding the person you mentioned against whom you held a grudge and apparently made him suffer, this is precisely the kind of situation I am referring to. YOU imposed a balancing of negative karma upon this person. However, if he had made a right choice using his free will, he could have avoided this.
But, I still see it that we do not have the right to do so. It is not whithin OUR right to impose pain upon another, for in this way we can be perpetuating a karmic cycle. The breaking free from such situations is by forgiving, something we should all aim at and strive to achieve...:thumbsup: : angel
Hammy
Senior Registered
I personaly think that we tie our selves up in useless knotts trying to decide if karma is real, if it works in this way, or if it works in that way. All this does is show me that we have no idea. Basicaly I believe that if we do wrong we get punished, maybe by ourselves maybe by others or maybe by the creator, who I call God.
I do not believe we automaticaly carry forward any 'bad karma' or sin or whatever you wish to call it, into any other life. Not never, just not automaticaly, I see no point, unless one is fully concious of the fact and is therefore able to learn.
This thread also brings up, once again, the subject of pre-planning. As I have posted before, I do think there may be some minor planning and that could lead to greater things. But anything major just does not make sense to me at all. Without going into the whole thing yet again, I feel that major pre-planning has far too many holes in it as a theory. Also, and this is the scariest part for me, pre-planning can be used as a cover for a great deal of evil. Such as 'I raped and murderd that child because we planned it'. Sorry I do not buy it.
Maybe a link could be found to these type of discussions? lol
Hammy.
I do not believe we automaticaly carry forward any 'bad karma' or sin or whatever you wish to call it, into any other life. Not never, just not automaticaly, I see no point, unless one is fully concious of the fact and is therefore able to learn.
This thread also brings up, once again, the subject of pre-planning. As I have posted before, I do think there may be some minor planning and that could lead to greater things. But anything major just does not make sense to me at all. Without going into the whole thing yet again, I feel that major pre-planning has far too many holes in it as a theory. Also, and this is the scariest part for me, pre-planning can be used as a cover for a great deal of evil. Such as 'I raped and murderd that child because we planned it'. Sorry I do not buy it.
Maybe a link could be found to these type of discussions? lol
Hammy.
tiltjlp
A Recycled Soul
Charles Stuart said:
It was on an unrelated forum, and the other fellow was far from an innocent victim. While I was much worse behaved than he was, we did entertain most onlookers for several days. My pot shots seemed to bother him much more than his bothered me, and I took absolute delight in that.
John
glyph
New Member
very interesting Deborah... I think about this alot. I agree with two of the choices readily. I picked "We have to experience to grow" and agree with "evil is a must in order to learn to love."
I think we contract to live our lives. To experience different things. From different views. It just rings true in me. So, in that, I ask myself, "Where does that put Jeffrey Dahmer in this mix?" Was he Evil through and through? Was he turned off? or is he playing out the other side... and growing? Was he necessary? Did his victims contract for their lives (and deaths)? Did it all flow together like the Universe always does? and can't help but think "Yes."
EDIT: But, I don't really believe in Evil either. As an embodiment. There are forces at work here, created by us, but on the higher levels I don't see it.
I think we contract to live our lives. To experience different things. From different views. It just rings true in me. So, in that, I ask myself, "Where does that put Jeffrey Dahmer in this mix?" Was he Evil through and through? Was he turned off? or is he playing out the other side... and growing? Was he necessary? Did his victims contract for their lives (and deaths)? Did it all flow together like the Universe always does? and can't help but think "Yes."
EDIT: But, I don't really believe in Evil either. As an embodiment. There are forces at work here, created by us, but on the higher levels I don't see it.
Charles Stuart
Senior Registered
Hi Hammy,
Yes, I agree with what you say. Perhaps certain major events and "tendencies" are pre-determined, but if "everything" were pre-determined, where would this leave "free will"? We would be just like robots with no power to decide, living in a rigid pre-molded reality...
Yes, I agree with what you say. Perhaps certain major events and "tendencies" are pre-determined, but if "everything" were pre-determined, where would this leave "free will"? We would be just like robots with no power to decide, living in a rigid pre-molded reality...
Charles Stuart said:
Charles /Hammy
I don't think anyone has said or implied on this thread that everything at soul level is completely preplanned .Only the key parameters are planned. Would one embark on a journey of learning based on a kneejerk reaction only . There is an old saying that if you don't know where youare going , then any road will get you there .In my opinion it is more like a baseball game . You plan your game ,who is the opposing team, place , date ,umpires , key players and a game strategy. No one knows how the game will turn out or what wonderful experiences,plays and lessons come from it. From time to time you get together and plan a bigger game like play offs and world series.
Phoenix
Forgot to play nice
Charles Stuart said:
Charles, your conclusion is based upon accepting what this individual said as being true. And that is where the logic falls apart. Because it's based upon accepting your particular religious faith as fact.
And not everyone does.
Charles Stuart said:
Actually, what I was trying to point out, Charles, is that what it does is make people feel that there is some sense and purpose to a senseless tragedy.
There's a big difference.
Phoenix
Hammy
Senior Registered
"Charles /Hammy
I don't think anyone has said or implied on this thread that everything at soul level is completely preplanned .Only the key parameters are planned. Would one embark on a journey of learning based on a kneejerk reaction only . There is an old saying that if you don't know where youare going , then any road will get you there .In my opinion it is more like a baseball game . You plan your game ,who is the opposing team, place , date ,umpires , key players and a game strategy. No one knows how the game will turn out or what wonderful experiences,plays and lessons come from it. From time to time you get together and plan a bigger game like play offs and world series."
Hi Matt,
I did not say anyone implied on this thread that everything is pre-planned, I was going also on past threads that many here took part in. We go round in circles.
Without restating everything I have said in the past about pre-planning and why I do not believe there is any, apart from, maybe, small amounts, I will ask the following:
If, as you say, we choose things to happen so we can learn, then what is the point of not remembering everything we chose, fully? Or more probably, at all?
If we choose things to happen in order to learn, then we must already have found the answers to our questions before be were re-born. Otherwise how would we know what we needed to learn?
Another analogy I have used before: Why take an exam if we have purposely made ourselves forget all the answers? What kind of waste of life is that?
Surely we could 'learn' more if we were fully prepared and we surley would get more from our lives because we wouldn't need to waste time trying to recall things we had forgotten, indeed do not know anything about, and could therefore use our lives to gain even more learning experiences?
The variables involved in any form of pre-planning are endless. The whole thing does not really hold water, in my opinion.
That'll do for now,
Regards all,
Hammy.
I don't think anyone has said or implied on this thread that everything at soul level is completely preplanned .Only the key parameters are planned. Would one embark on a journey of learning based on a kneejerk reaction only . There is an old saying that if you don't know where youare going , then any road will get you there .In my opinion it is more like a baseball game . You plan your game ,who is the opposing team, place , date ,umpires , key players and a game strategy. No one knows how the game will turn out or what wonderful experiences,plays and lessons come from it. From time to time you get together and plan a bigger game like play offs and world series."
Hi Matt,
I did not say anyone implied on this thread that everything is pre-planned, I was going also on past threads that many here took part in. We go round in circles.
Without restating everything I have said in the past about pre-planning and why I do not believe there is any, apart from, maybe, small amounts, I will ask the following:
If, as you say, we choose things to happen so we can learn, then what is the point of not remembering everything we chose, fully? Or more probably, at all?
If we choose things to happen in order to learn, then we must already have found the answers to our questions before be were re-born. Otherwise how would we know what we needed to learn?
Another analogy I have used before: Why take an exam if we have purposely made ourselves forget all the answers? What kind of waste of life is that?
Surely we could 'learn' more if we were fully prepared and we surley would get more from our lives because we wouldn't need to waste time trying to recall things we had forgotten, indeed do not know anything about, and could therefore use our lives to gain even more learning experiences?
The variables involved in any form of pre-planning are endless. The whole thing does not really hold water, in my opinion.
That'll do for now,
Regards all,
Hammy.
Charles Stuart
Senior Registered
Hi Matt,
I also loved your analogy and think it is dead on track...:thumbsup:
Phoenix,
We have had these discussions here before. If I share something that is of my own personal experience, something I have personally learned from experience, I can take it as my own truth, my own conclusion, and I may share it for the sake of those who might benefit from it. This, of course, does not mean that everyone or even anyone has to agree with what I have written. It is not my intention to preach or claim that "I know what's right"... I have my own beliefs and understanding, yes, but what I am doing here is "sharing" them, not stating them... I can even argument in defense of my conclusions, hoping to do so in a logical way...
Here in Brazil, Chico Xavier is reknown for having handed out evidence upon evidence of the existance of spirituality, but still many choose and chose not to believe. His life was an example to many. He published dozens of psychographed books that sold by the thousands and never took a penny from them. Instead he chose to hand all the proceeds to charity as, in his words, he "could not receive from what was not his own work". He opened orphanages, arranged meals for the poor and starving, and in all, his life was, to me, a wonderful example (he passed away a couple of years ago).
Hi Hammy,
I believe the purpose behind our "not remembering" is because we have to "experience emotionally" that which we must learn. Otherwise we would not have to incarnate, but just sit in front of a teacher in a classroom who would then simply explain or "teach us" what we needed to know. Just as in life, I believe the "experience", however, is fundamental.
As for pre-planning, it is my own personal view that we do not hold all the answers. If so, it would be as you say. It is for this reason that, according to my own belief and the belief of many, we are "guided" in our previous choices by Spiritual Guides who have already experienced, learned and therefore already "ascended" more...
I also loved your analogy and think it is dead on track...:thumbsup:
Phoenix,
We have had these discussions here before. If I share something that is of my own personal experience, something I have personally learned from experience, I can take it as my own truth, my own conclusion, and I may share it for the sake of those who might benefit from it. This, of course, does not mean that everyone or even anyone has to agree with what I have written. It is not my intention to preach or claim that "I know what's right"... I have my own beliefs and understanding, yes, but what I am doing here is "sharing" them, not stating them... I can even argument in defense of my conclusions, hoping to do so in a logical way...
Here in Brazil, Chico Xavier is reknown for having handed out evidence upon evidence of the existance of spirituality, but still many choose and chose not to believe. His life was an example to many. He published dozens of psychographed books that sold by the thousands and never took a penny from them. Instead he chose to hand all the proceeds to charity as, in his words, he "could not receive from what was not his own work". He opened orphanages, arranged meals for the poor and starving, and in all, his life was, to me, a wonderful example (he passed away a couple of years ago).
Hi Hammy,
I believe the purpose behind our "not remembering" is because we have to "experience emotionally" that which we must learn. Otherwise we would not have to incarnate, but just sit in front of a teacher in a classroom who would then simply explain or "teach us" what we needed to know. Just as in life, I believe the "experience", however, is fundamental.
As for pre-planning, it is my own personal view that we do not hold all the answers. If so, it would be as you say. It is for this reason that, according to my own belief and the belief of many, we are "guided" in our previous choices by Spiritual Guides who have already experienced, learned and therefore already "ascended" more...
Hammy
Senior Registered
Just a thought: Would it not be best to learn about and experience something that we truly know nothing about, rather than learn or experience something to which we already have pre-knowledge of?
By learning from and experiencing something completely new, are we not gaining, and therefore growing, more?
Just a thought
Hammy.
By learning from and experiencing something completely new, are we not gaining, and therefore growing, more?
Just a thought
Hammy.
Charles Stuart
Senior Registered
Hi Hammy,
Yes, but the point is: we all know we should not kill, and yet many do. We all know we should not steal, and yet many do. We all know we should not envy or hold rage, and yet...
We are far from being perfect. Perhaps this is the purpose: to improve, to become better, to become more "purified"...: angel
Yes, but the point is: we all know we should not kill, and yet many do. We all know we should not steal, and yet many do. We all know we should not envy or hold rage, and yet...
We are far from being perfect. Perhaps this is the purpose: to improve, to become better, to become more "purified"...: angel
This is an older thread - but one that might spur more conversation. Karma Issues and backlash
Citsym
New Member
Who measures the requirement?
Quote: only a requirement that you experience all that you create. Ailish...
In all the "knowing" and reading I have done, I find that the requirement to experience "all that we have created" is a rule devised by the "old gods" and is a rule that allows them to look back thru all our lives and say "well they fell short there, so they need to re-pay that wrong action...hence what we call Karma, and this is heaped up to the point that you and I never get free.
We are in fact in slavery, though most are blind to this fact.
Of course, in the world we live in, veiled to higher dimensions, we forever fall short, and end up in a catch 22 situation, and the old gods demand retribution.
Its this authority that I want to see ended...
However loving and peaceful we feel, however in control we think we are, I can honestly say, our minds are so layered with incorrect thinking, we are prisoners to other beings thinking..and they are the wrong beings to be on side with.
Do you ever wonder about reincarnation, and why it happens?
When you learn and overcome the limitations of this belief system, you will no longer need to be reincarnated...no more lessons!!!
This of course is what we are seeking...
Quote: only a requirement that you experience all that you create. Ailish...
In all the "knowing" and reading I have done, I find that the requirement to experience "all that we have created" is a rule devised by the "old gods" and is a rule that allows them to look back thru all our lives and say "well they fell short there, so they need to re-pay that wrong action...hence what we call Karma, and this is heaped up to the point that you and I never get free.
We are in fact in slavery, though most are blind to this fact.
Of course, in the world we live in, veiled to higher dimensions, we forever fall short, and end up in a catch 22 situation, and the old gods demand retribution.
Its this authority that I want to see ended...
However loving and peaceful we feel, however in control we think we are, I can honestly say, our minds are so layered with incorrect thinking, we are prisoners to other beings thinking..and they are the wrong beings to be on side with.
Do you ever wonder about reincarnation, and why it happens?
When you learn and overcome the limitations of this belief system, you will no longer need to be reincarnated...no more lessons!!!
This of course is what we are seeking...
Susie
Dreamer-former moderator
Hi Citsym,
Could you please provide written sources, especially regarding what an old god is, the rule devised by old Gods and what it allows? It has been my experience that we all have "knowing."
Again- written sources please. Doesn't it make sense that the only god, old or new, is the god of our perception and understanding? I believe god/spirit/universe is within and that there is nobody "out there" judging us.
But, we can change our own thinking at any time if we so choose. Please clarify who these other "beings" are. Consciousness creates in there here and now.
What belief system are you referring to?
HI Citsym; mystic
Facts are funny things. I use to teach art history; what I learned was that there are no plain facts in the history, only degrees of plausibility. Every statement no matter how fully documented -- is subject to doubt, and remains a fact only as long as no one questions it.
Every condition that lays as a fact in history is temporary, and the field is too vast for anyone to encompass all of it with equal competence. I imagine, our understanding of Karma, God(s) and spirituality is also temporary, all we really have are degrees of plausibility. That and a personal point of view.
From my point of view -I am not in slavery, what is in my life - I myself created. I am responsible. I like to joke around with a friend of mine sometimes, suggesting that; I am the master of my own universe. : angel Which -I am.
Facts are funny things.
I use to teach art history; what I learned was that there are no plain facts in the history, only degrees of plausibility. Every statement no matter how fully documented -- is subject to doubt, and remains a fact only as long as no one questions it. Every condition that lays as a fact in history is temporary, and the field is too vast for anyone to encompass all of it with equal competence. I imagine, our understanding of Karma, God(s) and spirituality is also temporary, all we really have are degrees of plausibility. That and a personal point of view.
From my point of view -I am not in slavery, what is in my life - I myself created. I am responsible. I like to joke around with a friend of mine sometimes, suggesting that; I am the master of my own universe. : angel Which -I am.
Ailish
Administrator Emerita
Hi citsym,
I completely disagree. One must take responsibility for their present situation – understand that they indeed have the power to create positive change – and stop blaming “karma” on certain life situations. In my opinion -- it’s an easy out to say “I have a miserable life now because of karma – and there is nothing I can do to change it.” The only person capable of inciting that change within – is you. No one else can do it for you.
Both negative and positive actions create reactions. That statement does not mean someone is sitting their judging us and doling out the punishment for each perceived “mistake.” It simply means -- whatever we persistently hold in our mind will surely manifest in our lives. Like energies attract.
So -- if we continually obsess over problems, stirring them around, wringing our hands, bemoaning them, resenting them, blaming others and fearing them -- we have held those problems in consciousness and those problems will remain energized and continue to materialize, expand and worsen in our present and future lives.
Consciousness and limitation are intimately related; limited consciousness creates limited reality; unlimited consciousness creates unlimited reality.
Consciousness is the manifestation of Pure Being. Consciousness creates the world in which we live and have our being. Just like a mirror, consciousness reflects things on its own surface. Our “role” as individuals is to allow consciousness to reflect itself through us…
Consciousness is ultimately who we choose to be. It starts with what we think about all day (lack, anxiety, anger or abundance, peace, joy) and translates directly to our experience of life. Our health, relationships, sense of fulfilment, everything is determined by it. An individual's state of consciousness will determine if that individual is joyous, abundant, peaceful or angry, lacking and anxious.
The consciousness of the mass or majority of a population can significantly influence the consciousness of individuals. On the earth, "mass consciousness" is focused on scarcity (or lack) anxiety and conflict - more so than on the more enjoyable alternatives. In other words if everybody else is choosing to be angry, lacking or anxious around you -- it is very easy to be influenced by the sentiments of mass consciousness. And so, the "practical translation" of these same emotions is what shows up in the majority of peoples' lives (i.e. anger, anxiety, lack, etc).
The benefits of raising consciousness (of individuals and of the collective humanity) is that Peace, Prosperity and Joy become the predominant reality on the planet. There are many people who successfully live lives of joy, abundance, peace, every day - simply by consciously choosing to!!
The act of choosing consciously with positive intent creates positive situations in this life – and sets up for positive situations in the next.
Ailish
I completely disagree. One must take responsibility for their present situation – understand that they indeed have the power to create positive change – and stop blaming “karma” on certain life situations. In my opinion -- it’s an easy out to say “I have a miserable life now because of karma – and there is nothing I can do to change it.” The only person capable of inciting that change within – is you. No one else can do it for you.
Both negative and positive actions create reactions. That statement does not mean someone is sitting their judging us and doling out the punishment for each perceived “mistake.” It simply means -- whatever we persistently hold in our mind will surely manifest in our lives. Like energies attract.
So -- if we continually obsess over problems, stirring them around, wringing our hands, bemoaning them, resenting them, blaming others and fearing them -- we have held those problems in consciousness and those problems will remain energized and continue to materialize, expand and worsen in our present and future lives.
Consciousness and limitation are intimately related; limited consciousness creates limited reality; unlimited consciousness creates unlimited reality.
Consciousness is the manifestation of Pure Being. Consciousness creates the world in which we live and have our being. Just like a mirror, consciousness reflects things on its own surface. Our “role” as individuals is to allow consciousness to reflect itself through us…
Consciousness is ultimately who we choose to be. It starts with what we think about all day (lack, anxiety, anger or abundance, peace, joy) and translates directly to our experience of life. Our health, relationships, sense of fulfilment, everything is determined by it. An individual's state of consciousness will determine if that individual is joyous, abundant, peaceful or angry, lacking and anxious.
The consciousness of the mass or majority of a population can significantly influence the consciousness of individuals. On the earth, "mass consciousness" is focused on scarcity (or lack) anxiety and conflict - more so than on the more enjoyable alternatives. In other words if everybody else is choosing to be angry, lacking or anxious around you -- it is very easy to be influenced by the sentiments of mass consciousness. And so, the "practical translation" of these same emotions is what shows up in the majority of peoples' lives (i.e. anger, anxiety, lack, etc).
The benefits of raising consciousness (of individuals and of the collective humanity) is that Peace, Prosperity and Joy become the predominant reality on the planet. There are many people who successfully live lives of joy, abundance, peace, every day - simply by consciously choosing to!!
The act of choosing consciously with positive intent creates positive situations in this life – and sets up for positive situations in the next.
Ailish
tiltjlp
A Recycled Soul
Citsym said:
I couldn't disagree more. Each of us is free to consider endless opinions and ideas, and if they feel right to us, we can then adopt them as Fact. No one is spiritually standing over my shoulder to make sure that I Believe any certain doctrine. If a person honestly believes that they have "incorrect thinking" and they don't do anything to change that, I not only pity them, I worry about them.
Reality is whatever you perceive it to be. So simply perceive a different reality.
John
Charles Stuart
Senior Registered
Hi everyone,
Based on my own experience, I wouldn't instantly knock off the concept of the "Old Gods". They are very much an active part in the concepts held by the line of African origin here in Brazil known as Candomblé, and have clear associations with the Egyptian, Greek and Nordic myths of their "gods"...:cool
Based on my own experience, I wouldn't instantly knock off the concept of the "Old Gods". They are very much an active part in the concepts held by the line of African origin here in Brazil known as Candomblé, and have clear associations with the Egyptian, Greek and Nordic myths of their "gods"...:cool
Ailish
Administrator Emerita
Hiya Charles,
Most systems of myths have an explanation for the origin of the Universe and its components.
Granted, I know very little about the rituals or origins of Candomblé, but when you look at myths from other places -- they do give importance to their gods/goddesses -- but there are also many, many differences in the telling of these stories regarding the origins of creation -- and the reasons for human suffering. There is always some sort of choice involved.
The idea of gods judging humans and inflicting karma upon them -- simply doesn't work for me. Many myths site a god as being the reason the earth is not a paradise. So, in my opinion -- it doesn't make sense that a human be made to suffer for the wrong-doings of a "god."
There are always consequences for our actions and our reactions -- but ultimately we choose how to act/react. Choose anger -- you will draw anger and negativity towards you. Choose to react in love and compassion -- and it will be reflected back towards you.
I do like these stories -- in fact I enjoy reading them very much, but to me they are just stories. I believe the Universe is One -- and we are all part of it -- we are all connected.
Therefore, everything we need to be happy, fulfilled and knowledgeable is already inside of us. We just need to remember how to use what we've already got.
Ailish
Most systems of myths have an explanation for the origin of the Universe and its components.
Granted, I know very little about the rituals or origins of Candomblé, but when you look at myths from other places -- they do give importance to their gods/goddesses -- but there are also many, many differences in the telling of these stories regarding the origins of creation -- and the reasons for human suffering. There is always some sort of choice involved.
The idea of gods judging humans and inflicting karma upon them -- simply doesn't work for me. Many myths site a god as being the reason the earth is not a paradise. So, in my opinion -- it doesn't make sense that a human be made to suffer for the wrong-doings of a "god."
There are always consequences for our actions and our reactions -- but ultimately we choose how to act/react. Choose anger -- you will draw anger and negativity towards you. Choose to react in love and compassion -- and it will be reflected back towards you.
I do like these stories -- in fact I enjoy reading them very much, but to me they are just stories. I believe the Universe is One -- and we are all part of it -- we are all connected.
Therefore, everything we need to be happy, fulfilled and knowledgeable is already inside of us. We just need to remember how to use what we've already got.
Ailish