I have learnt that purpose of reincarnation is spiritual growth and advancement. Each life is a learning experience and we are put through different situations, emotions and experiences which help us grow. But how does physical pain contribute to spiritual growth? This one question that has been troubling me for long. I don't believe that physical pain is a punishment for the sins we committed in previous lives because it is not going to teach a lesson which can rectify the sin. Why these diseases and disabilities? Why are innocent kids put through so much pain and suffering till they leave the world?
Purpose of physical pain?
- Thread starter meghna
- Start date
tanguerra
Moderator Emeritus
Hi meghna
Welcome to the forum.
People have different beliefs about the meaning of life. Some think we are here to learn. Others disagree. Some people think there is a God (however you conceive her) managing everything according to some kind of master plan. Others disagree.
Physical pain is actually a very important part of your body's operating system. Without physical pain, we would not know when we were harmed and would not take steps to attend to it urgently.
The viruses, microbes and bacteria that cause illnesses infections are also part of nature, the same way that humans are. I don't begin to know their reasons for what they do, but I doubt it's got anything to do with punishing us for our 'sins'. Similarly, maybe other illnesses and physical problems are random and have no meaning of any kind as far as we know?
Do you have a particular reason for asking that you would like to share?
Welcome to the forum.
People have different beliefs about the meaning of life. Some think we are here to learn. Others disagree. Some people think there is a God (however you conceive her) managing everything according to some kind of master plan. Others disagree.
Physical pain is actually a very important part of your body's operating system. Without physical pain, we would not know when we were harmed and would not take steps to attend to it urgently.
The viruses, microbes and bacteria that cause illnesses infections are also part of nature, the same way that humans are. I don't begin to know their reasons for what they do, but I doubt it's got anything to do with punishing us for our 'sins'. Similarly, maybe other illnesses and physical problems are random and have no meaning of any kind as far as we know?
Do you have a particular reason for asking that you would like to share?
I am not talking about the pain which helps you identify a problem in your body, but the one which comes after we have identified the problem and cannot do anything about it. One which excruciates you till death. I would agree to the scientific reasons which you stated if reincarnation and spirituality could also be proven by science. But what I seek is a deeper meaning of physical pain and how it helps our soul progress. Or is there no purpose for all the physical suffering at all?
Owl
Super-alt Mitglied
Well, if you don't want to consider the scientific reasons for physical pain, then any answer you come up with would be "OK", since there are many philosophies as philosophers. However, it' ll be a bit like talking in vain.meghna said:
Why does reincarnation has to be about learning? It doesn't, that's just some explanation somebody came up with and other people chose to accept. Why is there physical pain?, well, what is the philosophical reason why nerves exist? for what philosophical reason do we feel hungry? I could say it is because of our inner desire to adquire part of the world around us, and somebody else could come up with a different answer. However, those are just things humans make up and maybe it could be useful for some to develop a way to see the world, and it will be useless for others. Things just ARE. There is a world around us and organisms just adapt to it, pain as well as hunger are just ways evolution found to keep the body working.
And I don't see why reincarnation cannot be proven by science eventually, after all it's a natural phenomenon. It just hasn't been proven YET.
jonathan21
Member
do you mean what can we learn from physical pain?I agree with the above the answer won't be the same for everyone.
Eowyn
Wrought out of steel
I think any pain, physical or not, can make you stronger in the long run, physically and spiritually. For example, we all fear to go to the dentist, but when you have gone twice or thrice, you know you don't have reason to be that afraid. But that may be only a consequence, not the purpose of the existence of pain. I think physical pain is inherent to our human condition, just the way your organism has to tell you something is wrong... or there's something happening, as in child birth. Not all pains are bad. You also have pins and needles after doing some exercise, and that's pretty good...
Let me be more precise. All the books and articles about reincarnation I read stated that soul evolution happens through numerous earth lives where each life is a learning.
Most of us might have seen painful deaths of our dear ones and how they suffered for years together. Is there any purpose of all the physical pain we undergo during our lifetime or close to our death? Yes it has a lot of scientifical significance, but I am asking this question in context of reincarnation and spirituality only. Why does god or make some people suffer so much when there is no learning from it and it does not serve the ultimate purpose of spiritual growth?
Most of us might have seen painful deaths of our dear ones and how they suffered for years together. Is there any purpose of all the physical pain we undergo during our lifetime or close to our death? Yes it has a lot of scientifical significance, but I am asking this question in context of reincarnation and spirituality only. Why does god or make some people suffer so much when there is no learning from it and it does not serve the ultimate purpose of spiritual growth?
Eowyn
Wrought out of steel
There is not such a God. God is not responsible for our pain or suffering. Of course, this is only my personal view, but in case God exists (I see it more like a "super-consciousness" than someone similar to us), I believe He/She would be someone who loves all His/Her creation, including human beings, He/She doesn't make us suffer, just watches how we make use of our free will and learn through our experiences here (if we learn at all).meghna said:
Physical pain doesn't have to have a purpose of spiritual growth. As it's been said above, it's just something organic, material, why there has to be a meaning? We are human, we are born, we breathe, we have blood, we grow up, we get injured, we get sick, we die... it's all part of our condition. Yes, you will read a lot of things in books, but not because they are written, they are the ultimate truth.
Maybe you should ask yourself: does it have a meaning for you? If you have gone through these situations, did you find some good on it? Did it make you reflect about life, about pain, about how you can help these people when the final hour is close? I think it's up to us to see only the negative side of it, or make it through all that suffering and find light in the darkness.
tanguerra
Moderator Emeritus
There are some underlying assumptions here, which may or may not be wrong:meghna said:
1. God (however you conceive her) is 'doing this' to people, deliberately and with forethought, for mysterious reasons of her own (but we hope it is somehow for our own good) and we are nothing but her helpless victims.
2. The purpose of everyone's life is the same: 'learning' in order to achieve 'spiritual growth'.
Consider the possibility that these assumptions may not be true, or may be only partially true.
Consider the possibility that 'God' is not doing all this, but that humans are. Without getting into too much political discussion, human beings spend about $2 trillion dollars per year on weapons of war. We spend a similar amount on drugs and a similar amount on various forms of gambling, including the stock market. All the world's other industries are dwarfed by these three, although oil and coal are also very big.
We spend a whole lot less on dealing with poverty, clean water, housing, medical care, food production and other activities to improve the lot of people on this planet. If we spent $2 trillion a year on medical research, training doctors, providing health care to the poor and so on, we could eliminate a great deal of suffering. If we put an end to war, we could virtually eliminate poverty and hunger.
Is this God's work? I think not. Why do we do this? If humans put the same amount of effort into helping each other that they put into killing and hurting each other, we would probably go a long way towards ending most of the world's pain and suffering, but yet, we don't do that, or at least we do it, but not very much of it. We do much more of the other thing.
Why? The answer is complex. Is it because people are basically very fearful and having lots of weapons makes them feel better? Is it due to the work of a few selfish and slightly crazed individuals who profit from weapons and drugs and don't care about the welfare of others? Are people so weak or immature that they need drugs to manage to get through the day, or do they become addicted to various substances, because the manufacturers of these deliberately want to enslave them for profit? Who are these people and why do we let them rule over us? Why do people meekly blame God (or the devil) for the evils of the world, rather than their fellow humans?
There are no simple answers to these questions.
Nangijala
Member
I don't believe God (or Godessmeghna said:
) is responsible for physical pain (or wars or world hunger or whatever). He / she doesn't MAKE people suffer, it just happens because it's a part of the bill you pay for being a living creature with a feeling body. The human body is the vessel of many pleasant sensations. Pain is just the other side of the coin, it's a kind of balance-thing.I think if you are very old and fragile or very ill with cancer or really bad hurt with a fatal wound the resulting pain can ease your struggling concious mind into accepting the unavoidable fact of your imminent death. To have a strong survival instinct, to fight tooth and nail against death is an important part of being human. So pain is maybe a kind of message: Don't fight anymore, sweetie! Just relax and let go.meghna said:
Thank you Tanguerra and Nangijala. Your answers gave me another perspective of it to ponder upon. That eased my restlessness to an extent. Any justification that you can think of for the disabilities in some people and certain diseases which are caused without any human intervention?
Nangijala
Member
Pain and suffering in this world is certainly a very complex issue. It seems so unfair, but is it really unfair?meghna said:
For my part, I do believe in karma. I believe that every soul chooses his or her new life with all the joys and with all the drawbacks. I think when I have to suffer in my present life it's a decision I made before my rebirth because I wanted to learn something, to experience something I didn't know before.
I can't remember why I made this decision, but I did it. And there must have been a very good reason why I decided for my stony path, so there is no point in complaining about the stones or my blistered feet. I have to walk the thing - but along the way I can enjoy the scenery and all the flowers, blooming left and right. And I know that in the end I will reach my destination (hopefully!
), prop up my legs and rest for a while. Then I will choose a new path and start again.So when I see the suffering of my fellow men I do feel compassion - of course I do! It makes me sad, when they are ill or disabled or whatever. And if I can, I help them. But I don't rack my brain about their suffering because I just assume that they chose their path as I chose my path. It was their right to choose whatever they wish. And I have no right to judge their choice because it makes me sad.
And there is another thing: I would never ever assume that someone is "fortunate" only because he isn't ill or disabled. Everyone has his burden to carry - every traveller on his path has his very own knapsack bumping on his back. Sometimes you can't see it, but it is there.
But I'm really curious now, meghna: Is there a special experience you want to talk about?
This exactly what I was wondering about. Whosoever's decision it may be, what is it that we learn from physical pain and suffering and if its linked to our spiritual evolution at all.Nangijala said:
I've seen my dearest one suffer. I found answers to everything else except this. Reincarnation is the only hope that is left in my life now. Ordered the book "Return from heaven" by Carol Bowman. Looking forward to finding more insights into reincarnation from the book.
argonne1918
Senior Registered
That's a great book. After you read it you will be thinking about your relatives in a new light.meghna said:
Hi, meghna. I'm so sorry to hear that you've lost someone close to you in such a painful way. I largely agree with the observations that have already been made, but I thought it might be helpful to approach your question with some specific examples from my own experience, in the hopes they might be useful to you.
I strongly agree that there is no one "reason" why people suffer terrible pain and disabilities. I have found, in the course of my own regressions, that all means of death are ultimately a matter of choice (not conscious choice, you understand, but the soul's choice.) The soul is not physical. It cannot be damaged by injury or suffering on the part of the physical organism, for it knows that all suffering is temporary.
I have been regressed to several lives in which I died under painful circumstances. In one, I died as an infant during a cholera epidemic. This death was unpleasant, and the infant's life seemed tragically short. In that life, however, my soul had no intention of living to adulthood. For reasons of their own, the souls of my parents "wanted" (again, not consciously,) to be afforded an opportunity to experience the loss of a child--one of the most painful facets of the human experience. Some soul had to "volunteer" to be their baby. In that instance, the volunteer was me, and subsequent to the infant's death, my soul was satisfied with the role it played as a "supporting actor" in other people's "drama."
In another life, I was married to a weaver in medieval England. This woman had a generally happy, productive life until she succumbed to what I believe to have been some kind of bone cancer (she, of course, did not understand the exact nature of her illness). It was an excruciating death. Her community believed strongly in the Catholic conception of heaven, hell, and judgment, and the reality of impending death was quite terrifying to her. She was also understandably reluctant to leave her family. By the end of her long and painful ordeal, however, death came as a relief; the desire to end her suffering had quite overwhelmed her fear. Relief was immediate upon death. I've had some indication that the soul of her husband in that life is also that of my current unborn child. It's quite pleasant to think that I will now have the opportunity to care for him at the beginning of his life, when he took such good care of me at the end of my life in England. Perhaps this multi-life symmetry was also part of our "plan." I think Carol Bowman's book may bring you some comfort in this regard as well--we often reunite with the ones we've loved and lost.
In this life, my grandmother was a chilly woman, insecure and largely emotionally unavailable to her children. She experienced a protracted illness at the end of her life, and my father, who always longed for her approval and open affection, was at great pains to care for her until her dying day. I think she came to appreciate the quality of his love over the many months, and when she finally passed, my father seemed to take comfort in the fact that he had fulfilled his duty as her son even though she had not always met his needs as a mother. In a sense, he needed that opportunity for her to need him, and her long illness gave him that opportunity. My grandmother appeared to me in a dream after her death, and I am now convinced her illness was an act of generosity on the part of her soul.
I don't know why your loved one died in the manner he or she did. If you feel you must have an explanation in order to move on, I would suggest meditation and intuitive exploration of the situation. Just remember, suffering isn't necessarily some form of punishment, either self-imposed or dictated by a higher power. Sometimes it may even be an act of love or an opportunity for growth. The soul is intrepid in ways the body cannot always understand. I hope you find the peace you desire.
I strongly agree that there is no one "reason" why people suffer terrible pain and disabilities. I have found, in the course of my own regressions, that all means of death are ultimately a matter of choice (not conscious choice, you understand, but the soul's choice.) The soul is not physical. It cannot be damaged by injury or suffering on the part of the physical organism, for it knows that all suffering is temporary.
I have been regressed to several lives in which I died under painful circumstances. In one, I died as an infant during a cholera epidemic. This death was unpleasant, and the infant's life seemed tragically short. In that life, however, my soul had no intention of living to adulthood. For reasons of their own, the souls of my parents "wanted" (again, not consciously,) to be afforded an opportunity to experience the loss of a child--one of the most painful facets of the human experience. Some soul had to "volunteer" to be their baby. In that instance, the volunteer was me, and subsequent to the infant's death, my soul was satisfied with the role it played as a "supporting actor" in other people's "drama."
In another life, I was married to a weaver in medieval England. This woman had a generally happy, productive life until she succumbed to what I believe to have been some kind of bone cancer (she, of course, did not understand the exact nature of her illness). It was an excruciating death. Her community believed strongly in the Catholic conception of heaven, hell, and judgment, and the reality of impending death was quite terrifying to her. She was also understandably reluctant to leave her family. By the end of her long and painful ordeal, however, death came as a relief; the desire to end her suffering had quite overwhelmed her fear. Relief was immediate upon death. I've had some indication that the soul of her husband in that life is also that of my current unborn child. It's quite pleasant to think that I will now have the opportunity to care for him at the beginning of his life, when he took such good care of me at the end of my life in England. Perhaps this multi-life symmetry was also part of our "plan." I think Carol Bowman's book may bring you some comfort in this regard as well--we often reunite with the ones we've loved and lost.
In this life, my grandmother was a chilly woman, insecure and largely emotionally unavailable to her children. She experienced a protracted illness at the end of her life, and my father, who always longed for her approval and open affection, was at great pains to care for her until her dying day. I think she came to appreciate the quality of his love over the many months, and when she finally passed, my father seemed to take comfort in the fact that he had fulfilled his duty as her son even though she had not always met his needs as a mother. In a sense, he needed that opportunity for her to need him, and her long illness gave him that opportunity. My grandmother appeared to me in a dream after her death, and I am now convinced her illness was an act of generosity on the part of her soul.
I don't know why your loved one died in the manner he or she did. If you feel you must have an explanation in order to move on, I would suggest meditation and intuitive exploration of the situation. Just remember, suffering isn't necessarily some form of punishment, either self-imposed or dictated by a higher power. Sometimes it may even be an act of love or an opportunity for growth. The soul is intrepid in ways the body cannot always understand. I hope you find the peace you desire.
John Tat
Senior Registered
Hi Meghna
There are plenty of reasons given why we all suffer physical pain.
For me the answer is simple. Physical pain both forces us and drives us to seek the truth, not only about ourselves but about our purpose. Without physical pain there would be no reasons for us to search for the truth.
There are plenty of reasons given why we all suffer physical pain.
For me the answer is simple. Physical pain both forces us and drives us to seek the truth, not only about ourselves but about our purpose. Without physical pain there would be no reasons for us to search for the truth.
dking777
Senior Registered
For many years after my NDE in 1978 - I would often find myself asking people, "Why don't you just ask God that question and get the answer from the source of truth?" I can not count the times people told me, "It don't work that way." It may not work for others - but for many - this sort of thing works and I feel it is the basis and foundation of all religions. To establish a foundation of belief leading to a direct and intimate relationship with the "Spirit" of Creation.meghna said:
I found it strange that many people looked at the 'Divine Creator" sort of like a worldly President or King. Someone in charge of things from a distance - but not someone you would be able to carry on a direct conversation with.
Many of us here on the board may be able to satisfy your mental curiosity and share our experiences, opinions and theories - but when it comes to the truth your heart is longing for regarding this deep and heart felt question - I think the "Spirit of God" is the only one that can satisfy your heart with the truth concerning an answer.
Just my opinion, of course.
Sincerely,
DKing
Blackbird
New Member
Meghna, so terribly hard, I am so sorry.
Just a few thoughts from my own times wrestling with these things... I find pain, emotional or physical, can remind me what I actually believe: that this existence is but a snippet of the continuum, that if we could view it from the arc of eternity, the pains of a lifetime would be past and done in fluid second and so fall into perspective. That our entwinings with those we love must make an infinitely complex weave -- each thread meaningful in ways impossible to guess within the moment.
I don't believe the important threads are ever broken.
Someone, can't remember who, said it's not what happens to us that's the point, it's what we become by it that ultimately matters. On some level I do believe that, though it's way easier to think than to feel, goodness knows. Especially in bitter pain. But what we become is surely what we take with us.
A couple of quotes come to mind:
“The most beautiful people we have known are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss, and have found their way out of the depths. These persons have an appreciation, a sensitivity, and an understanding of life that fills them with compassion, gentleness, and a deep loving concern. Beautiful people do not just happen.”
~ Elisabeth Kübler-Ross
“Have patience with everything that remains unsolved in your heart. Try to love the questions themselves, like locked rooms and like books written in a foreign language. Do not now look for the answers. They cannot now be given to you because you could not live them. It is a question of experiencing everything. At present you need to live the question. Perhaps you will gradually, without even noticing it, find yourself experiencing the answer, some distant day.”
~ Rainer Maria Rilke
May you be healing, and your dear one too, here and elsewhere.
Just a few thoughts from my own times wrestling with these things... I find pain, emotional or physical, can remind me what I actually believe: that this existence is but a snippet of the continuum, that if we could view it from the arc of eternity, the pains of a lifetime would be past and done in fluid second and so fall into perspective. That our entwinings with those we love must make an infinitely complex weave -- each thread meaningful in ways impossible to guess within the moment.
I don't believe the important threads are ever broken.
Someone, can't remember who, said it's not what happens to us that's the point, it's what we become by it that ultimately matters. On some level I do believe that, though it's way easier to think than to feel, goodness knows. Especially in bitter pain. But what we become is surely what we take with us.
A couple of quotes come to mind:
“The most beautiful people we have known are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss, and have found their way out of the depths. These persons have an appreciation, a sensitivity, and an understanding of life that fills them with compassion, gentleness, and a deep loving concern. Beautiful people do not just happen.”
~ Elisabeth Kübler-Ross
“Have patience with everything that remains unsolved in your heart. Try to love the questions themselves, like locked rooms and like books written in a foreign language. Do not now look for the answers. They cannot now be given to you because you could not live them. It is a question of experiencing everything. At present you need to live the question. Perhaps you will gradually, without even noticing it, find yourself experiencing the answer, some distant day.”
~ Rainer Maria Rilke
May you be healing, and your dear one too, here and elsewhere.
Pain is sometimes the result of a wrong in a past life
Sometimes, pain is the result of a wrong of a past life.
I have the reasons in the post Why some people are burdened with disabilities
Most probably, whatever trials or pain we go through are ones that we ourselves signed up for before we were born in this life. As spirits who wish to improve themselves, we wish to learn the lessons that we need to climb the ladder to perfection.
Try and be thankful for the opportunity to learn. I know this is very difficult.
Sometimes, pain is the result of a wrong of a past life.
I have the reasons in the post Why some people are burdened with disabilities
Most probably, whatever trials or pain we go through are ones that we ourselves signed up for before we were born in this life. As spirits who wish to improve themselves, we wish to learn the lessons that we need to climb the ladder to perfection.
Try and be thankful for the opportunity to learn. I know this is very difficult.
HI Brian,
It's best to premise your statements with "in my opinion...." or "in my experience...." Presenting answers to questions as facts - especially regarding Past Lives isn't fair to the new comers and (speaking for myself) irritating to those of us who have been studying the phenomenon for years.
So...I have a question. What does the ladder of perfection mean to you personally, without linking to your book or website. What is perfection? coffee
It's best to premise your statements with "in my opinion...." or "in my experience...." Presenting answers to questions as facts - especially regarding Past Lives isn't fair to the new comers and (speaking for myself) irritating to those of us who have been studying the phenomenon for years.
So...I have a question. What does the ladder of perfection mean to you personally, without linking to your book or website. What is perfection? coffee
The ladder of perfection
To me improving yourself means to learn to be:
1. Selfless - learn to care for others as much as you care for yourself. This doesn't mean you have to give them all of your love or money per se, but to sympathize, help when possible, provide advice, don't judge.
2. Be honorable - Treat others as you want to be treated. Be honest in all dealings.
3. Be spiritual - Continue to learn about the Spiritual world and what is our place in the universe. Try to understand what trials you are going through now and what you need to learn from them. Know that you are experiencing these times because you asked for them and you need to learn.
4. Less materialistic - We all need some material goods, but don't put them above all else. Live within your means. God determined our present trials so we could learn from them, not to amass wealth. Although some are given trials to handle wealth and if you do have it, learn to treat others with respect and have your money assist people, not drain their resources for nothing.
5. Maintain a positive attitude and thoughts - Don't despair (I wish I had learned that earlier!) and don't whine. Keep a positive outlook and determine methods to improve and crawl out of your hole. Keep positive thinking, don't let your mind radiate negative energy.
I could go on, but I am already boring enough!
I almost forgot to say, that of course I am not close to achieving these goals, but I am trying!
To me improving yourself means to learn to be:
1. Selfless - learn to care for others as much as you care for yourself. This doesn't mean you have to give them all of your love or money per se, but to sympathize, help when possible, provide advice, don't judge.
2. Be honorable - Treat others as you want to be treated. Be honest in all dealings.
3. Be spiritual - Continue to learn about the Spiritual world and what is our place in the universe. Try to understand what trials you are going through now and what you need to learn from them. Know that you are experiencing these times because you asked for them and you need to learn.
4. Less materialistic - We all need some material goods, but don't put them above all else. Live within your means. God determined our present trials so we could learn from them, not to amass wealth. Although some are given trials to handle wealth and if you do have it, learn to treat others with respect and have your money assist people, not drain their resources for nothing.
5. Maintain a positive attitude and thoughts - Don't despair (I wish I had learned that earlier!) and don't whine. Keep a positive outlook and determine methods to improve and crawl out of your hole. Keep positive thinking, don't let your mind radiate negative energy.
I could go on, but I am already boring enough!
I almost forgot to say, that of course I am not close to achieving these goals, but I am trying!
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