Soul-splitting

[Groovy]

I don’t see this as the real world. A lot of information has come through near-death experiences, regressive hypnosis and the like that points to this world being an illusion created to enable us to play roles of our choosing. That we make mistakes in so doing doesn’t imply that we are inherently imperfect.


I see us as beings who are a part of God and share in its attributes, including knowledge and perfection. We have chosen to undertake this journey – including forgetting who we are, when appropriate – for the purpose of experiencing our nature, something that we could not do in our original state. In this sense, the purpose of the journey is the journey itself, and is cyclic in nature.


I understand your explanation, but it invariably leaves me wondering about the purpose of our creation – what was God trying to achieve and why?

 

[Charles Stuart]

Well, if we are already perfect, what are we trying to achieve by reincarnating and why? In my view, we learn through reincarnation just as a child learns as it grows up and continues to learn as an adult. What was God trying to achieve and why? He/She/It has give us the "gift of life", and what more perfect means could you envisage than that we may learn through the experiences of our various incarnations, leving the merits of our progress up to us? To me, the process is linear, not cyclical.


If this world is an illusion, it is one that is persistant. We view the process very differently indeed, my friend...

 

[Charles Stuart]

Well, if we are already perfect, what are we trying to achieve by reincarnating and why? In my view, we learn through reincarnation just as a child learns as it grows up and continues to learn as an adult. What was God trying to achieve by this and why? He/She/It has given us the "gift of life", and what more perfect means could you envisage than that we may learn through the experiences of our various incarnations, leaving the merits of our progress up to us? To me, the process is linear, not cyclical. If this world is an illusion, it is one that is persistant.


We view the process very differently indeed, my friend...

 

[Charles Stuart]

Hi groovy,


I have been thinking a bit more about this based on what you said:

A lot of information has come through near-death experiences, regressive hypnosis and the like that points to this world being an illusion created to enable us to play roles of our choosing.

Could you give me some example of this? from my own experience and from what I have read, I have never encountered a situation in which a person has had an NDE and recalls being "perfect", nor in hypnotic regression. Karoliina also mentioned mediumnic communications confirming your and her views. Again, in my own experience I have never encountered this. It is quite the contrary, in fact. Such experiences confirm my own view.


Am beginning to wonder to what extent "cultural backgrounds" influence all this...

 

[Charles Stuart]

Upon more thought:


If indeed we are "perfect", what is there to stop us from, for example, hijacking a plane and slamming it into a building, killing thousands and causing pain and suffering upon thousands more? If after that we can then go back to our "perfection" in Paradise (and live surrounded by 21 virgins)? Where does "karma" come into play under this view?


This concept of already being perfect is also contrary to all the ancient sacred texts (the Bible, the Bhagavad Gita...)


I think you would enjoy reading this book, even if just to have a different view on reincarnation, and better undestand my own views:


The Spirits`Book

 

[Groovy]

You’ve certainly raced ahead in the post count… I wanted to reply to all of them at once, but the response was too long, so I will break it up to correspond to your individual posts.

Well, if we are already perfect, what are we trying to achieve by reincarnating and why? In my view, we learn through reincarnation just as a child learns as it grows up and continues to learn as an adult. What was God trying to achieve by this and why?

The learning and growth are there, but they are features of the process rather than its goal. I will give you a brief description of my understanding of the subject. Much of it comes from the Conversations with God books by Neale Donald Walsch, so feel free to consult them if you find my explanation irreparably lacking.


The starting point is one where God existed in solitude, before it fragmented into innumerable individual beings (us). In this state, it was able to speculate about its nature, but not experience it, since there was nothing that it could compare itself to. It created us in an effort to facilitate this experience. Hence my statement that we are fragments of God, identical in nature and ability, except for the scale on which we act.


The other part of creation was that of a multiverse – a structure that is inherently dualistic as it contrasts the nature of God with its opposite. It thereby serves as a contextual field that makes this experience possible. Because the multiverse is a fragment of God and yet contains what can be seen as the opposite of the nature of God, it is essentially an illusion.


What this creation has enabled God to do is answer the question of identity (who am I?) in experiential terms. Take for example the concept of eternal life. God is an eternal being. But what does it mean to be eternal when all that exists is eternal? In this context, eternality of existence is a meaningless concept. God cannot die, but a fragment of God (one of us) can experience what appears to be death (death of a physical body within the multiverse) and thereby create the necessary contrast with which to give meaning to eternal life.


Another example is kindness. God cannot perform a kind act because no part of God is in need of such an act. But in the multiverse, circumstances arise whose protagonists appear to have such need. Acting kindly towards them gives us the experience of being kind, and through us to God as well. In this way, God gets to experience its own nature instead of simply speculating about it.


This process is essentially a balancing act between forgetting our true nature sufficiently for human existence to appear genuine, and not so much that we get lost in the illusion and struggle with the “harsh realities of life”. As we grow and mature, we gradually recall more of this knowledge, leading to ever-higher forms of self-expression. From this perspective, corporeal existence is not something to escape from, but a tool that can be used to fashion desirable experience.

He/She/It has given us the "gift of life", and what more perfect means could you envisage than that we may learn through the experiences of our various incarnations, leaving the merits of our progress up to us?

How perfect the process is depends on what God was trying to achieve with it. Would you mind describing your take on this?

 

[Groovy]

Could you give me some example of this? from my own experience and from what I have read, I have never encountered a situation in which a person has had an NDE and recalls being "perfect", nor in hypnotic regression. Karoliina also mentioned mediumnic communications confirming your and her views. Again, in my own experience I have never encountered this. It is quite the contrary, in fact. Such experiences confirm my own view.

I didn’t say that people claim to be perfect during NDEs or hypnotic regression, but that they see this world as an illusion created for the purpose of role-playing. The claim of perfection comes from us being fragments of God. The demonstrated imperfection comes from our forgetting our true nature in order to answer the question of self-identity in experiential terms.

Am beginning to wonder to what extent "cultural backgrounds" influence all this...

If by culture you mean the external views that exert definitive influence on one’s beliefs and thinking, probably quite a lot.

 

[Groovy]

If indeed we are "perfect", what is there to stop us from, for example, hijacking a plane and slamming it into a building, killing thousands and causing pain and suffering upon thousands more? If after that we can then go back to our "perfection" in Paradise (and live surrounded by 21 virgins)?

What stops us from acting in utterly destructive ways is the understanding that this is not who we are, that such actions do not give us joy. The idea that we act in certain ways in hope of reward and avoid acting in certain ways from fear of punishment seems primitive to me. Acting in ways that are consistent with our true nature is its own reward, in the form of desirable experience.

Where does "karma" come into play under this view?

I don’t have a clear understanding of karma. I have seen it used in a punitive manner (as seems to be the intent here) so many times that I have essentially railed against the concept. As far as I’m concerned, it doesn’t exert influence beyond a single human lifetime, though I acknowledge that I could easily be wrong in this matter.

This concept of already being perfect is also contrary to all the ancient sacred texts (the Bible, the Bhagavad Gita...)

Perhaps our distant ancestors didn’t have all the answers.

I think you would enjoy reading this book, even if just to have a different view on reincarnation, and better undestand my own views:
The Spirits`Book

I have read the chapter on reincarnation. There is some similarity with my views, as well as some differences:


- A theme of punishment for inappropriate behaviour comes through, as in question 178.2. I see punishment as a primitive concept.


- Question 208 brings up the burden of guilt, which I see as another primitive concept.


- The text carries a strong message of separateness between God and us. As I have mentioned before, I think that we are one and the same.


- The text also carries a strong message of trials and suffering that form the substance of corporeal existence, and the desirability of speedily attaining perfection in order to escape it. I see corporeal existence as an opportunity for self-expression – a worthwhile experience rather than one that we should seek to escape.


- At least now I understand your claim that a soul is indivisible, even though it was given in response to soul-mixing rather than strictly soul-splitting (question 203).


- I wish that a more detailed answer were given to question 170, particularly with respect to what kind of state of perfect happiness can remain stimulating indefinitely.


All in all, the impression that I got from reading this text is that it presents very much the same ideas that I have come to accept (if only tentatively), but filtered through a mindset quite different from mine.


Are there any other sections that you wanted me to read?

 

[Charles Stuart]

Hi Groovy,


Well, you have given truly excellent ponderations to most of my points... :thumbsup:


I am quite certain that, at each stage/phase of human evolution, there are answers in accordance. The Spirits' Book was compiled in 1857, exactly 150 years ago. Read it at will, if you wish (or not... ). There are several very interesting points for us to discuss in your above replies, but will have to get to them with a bit more free time (being short on time has also been a reason for my more sporadical responding here, and also for fragmentedly "racing ahead in the post count").


I have one question for you now, though: do you believe that our return to "Being one with the whole" implies in the loss of our own Individual Consciousness?


Regarding Karma, I don't view it as "punishment", just that we "reap in proportion to what we sow". Karma, in my view, is a means of purification, and also of "Perfect Justice". A far more perfect means than the concepts of Heaven and an eternal hell.


Great replies, Groovy, look forward to reading more... :thumbsup:

 

[Groovy]

Well, you have given truly excellent ponderations to most of my points... :thumbsup:

I’m glad you like them. I spent a whole evening on this and ended up being late for work this morning.

I am quite certain that, at each stage/phase of human evolution, there are answers in accordance.

I think so as well. I have seen this theme in many of the books that I’ve read.

I have one question for you now, though: do you believe that our return to "Being one with the whole" implies in the loss of our own Individual Consciousness?

I prefer to think of it not so much in terms of the loss of individual consciousness as of its expansion to encompass all of consciousness. In so doing, we bring together the knowledge of our true nature (God) with our experience of it from within the contextual field of the multiverse. The combination of the two gives rise to a state of bliss, which gradually wears off (reduces to the state of existence prior to God’s fragmentation) as our memory of the experience fades. At some point we once again cast away the consciousness of the whole, take up our individual consciousness and emerge from the whole to undertake another leg of the journey.


According to my sources, this merger with the God consciousness takes place frequently, possibly during our incarnation and definitely at the end of it. The process is nicely described in Neale’s book Home with God.

Regarding Karma, I don't view it as "punishment", just that we "reap in proportion to what we sow". Karma, in my view, is a means of purification, and also of "Perfect Justice". A far more perfect means than the concepts of Heaven and an eternal hell.

Yes, I prefer the notion of eternal heaven and temporary hell.


Because I see human life as role-playing, I haven’t decided on the manner in which our actions in this life affect our subsequent existence.

 

[Charles Stuart]

Hi Groovy,


Yes, Tinkerman mentioned in another thread his need to take care of his farm, likewise we all have to take care of work and our daily chores... Still, there is no hurry here.


I have a lot to comment on regarding your views, and will do so as soon as I have some more free time.

According to my sources, this merger with the God consciousness takes place frequently, possibly during our incarnation and definitely at the end of it. The process is nicely described in Neale’s book Home with God.

I disagree here, and in some other points as well, but in the meantime, I think you would enjoy reading this thread:


Karma is not Punishment


Will be back later...


:thumbsup:

 

[Charles Stuart]

Ok, with a bit more time...

The learning and growth are there, but they are features of the process rather than its goal.

Here we disagree. To me it is the goal. I can't wrap my mind around the concept that an "Already Perfect Being" should need the experience. We do, Perfection doesn't. I can't imagine a "Perfect God" needing to experience sentiments such as envy, hatred, greed, rage, pride, etc etc etc...

The other part of creation was that of a multiverse

Yes, but my view is that our spiritual progress takes place in the "plurality of worlds" and in the "multiverses". The progress, therefore, is almost infinite.

What this creation has enabled God to do is answer the question of identity (who am I?) in experiential terms.

Do you really think He/She/It needed to answer this question?

Another example is kindness. God cannot perform a kind act because no part of God is in need of such an act.

And did/does God really need to experience the act of unkindness?

As we grow and mature, we gradually recall more of this knowledge, leading to ever-higher forms of self-expression.

I would use the term "learn", not "recall"...

How perfect the process is depends on what God was trying to achieve with it. Would you mind describing your take on this?

Certainly. My view is that God's intention in the process was/is to Create. To create us, as His/Her children, and the multiverses as His/Her Creation. The Creation on the universe/multiverses, in my view, was/is to enable US to experience and learn through them...

I didn’t say that people claim to be perfect during NDEs or hypnotic regression, but that they see this world as an illusion created for the purpose of role-playing.

Have never heard of this. To my knowledge, those who have experienced this experience something similar to when we have been underwater for a long time and finally come up to breathe. And there is, more often than not, the experience with The Light and Light Beings.


I remember a member here sharing this story:


A woman at the hairdresser's is attempting to explain the "illusion" of this world. Her manicurist than slaps her hard on the thigh and says: "How's that for an illusion?"


I can't envisage this world and universe as "illusions", but as the "reality" we experience...

The idea that we act in certain ways in hope of reward and avoid acting in certain ways from fear of punishment seems primitive to me.

You may find it "primitive", but in my view it is true... Why would a Perfect God (or His/Her "perfect particles") need to undergo a process such as the Karmic Process???

I wish that a more detailed answer were given to question 170, particularly with respect to what kind of state of perfect happiness can remain stimulating indefinitely.

The perfect happiness of helping others in their learning evolutionary process. The perfect happiness of co-participating more intensely in the Universal Creation Process. But IMO this stage is only achieved after numerous (almost countless) reincarnations in the various worlds and multiverses.


Seeing as the Soul has no mass, once the Soul/Spirit has reached a certain evolutionary degree in which It has hardly any need of a body of any kind to restrict it, it can expand or travel almost instantaneously to any part of the multiverses.


As for the other points, I disagree with your view of "primitive"...

All in all, the impression that I got from reading this text is that it presents very much the same ideas that I have come to accept (if only tentatively), but filtered through a mindset quite different from mine.

Well, that's fine... :thumbsup: We could go on forever in this debate of ours here, couldn't we?

 

[Charles Stuart]

Oh, and just one last point:


Personally I don't believe we ever lose our "Individual Consciousness". Even the Great Souls such as Yeshua, Bhudda, Krishna, the Angels, etc, IMO still exist as individual personalities. The gift of Eternal Life is the only free gift of God. All else must be achieved by merit... : angel

 

[Groovy]

…in the meantime, I think you would enjoy reading this thread:
Karma is not Punishment

I browsed through this thread a few weeks ago, which is why I was surprised to see you mention karma in that context.

 

[Groovy]

Here we disagree. To me it is the goal. I can't wrap my mind around the concept that an "Already Perfect Being" should need the experience. We do, Perfection doesn't. I can't imagine a "Perfect God" needing to experience sentiments such as envy, hatred, greed, rage, etc etc etc...

Let me put it this way – if the goal is to learn and grow, then it makes sense to me that this would be done for the experience of learning and growth rather than for the purpose of attaining knowledge, since God could have presumably created us with this knowledge already in place, or given it to us afterwards.


Are you saying that experience should not be important to a perfect being, or that its fruits should be attainable in other ways?

Yes, but my view is that our spiritual progress takes place in the "plurality of worlds" and in the "multiverses". The progress, therefore, is almost infinite.

I meant multiverse to mean “multiple universes”. Sorry about the confusion.

Do you really think He/She/It needed to answer this question?

I see this as a central question of one’s existence, so yes.

And did/does God really need to experience the act of unkindness?

It is desirable to do so if one is to give meaning to the concept.

Certainly. My view is that God's intention in the process was/is to Create. To create us, as His/Her children, and the multiverses as His/Her Creation. The Creation on the universe/multiverses, in my view, was/is to enable US to experience and learn through them...

It just occurred to me to ask – was this created out of nothing (as per the Christian doctrine)?

Have never heard of this. To my knowledge, those who have experienced this experience something similar to when we have been underwater for a long time and finally come up to breathe. And there is, more often than not, the experience with The Light and Light Beings.

Near-death experiences:


Here is a discussion of life as a role of our choosing (though it uses different terminology).


Hypnotic regression:


Michael Newton’s books describe in considerable detail the preparations that take place prior to incarnation, in terms of deciding on the desired goals (providing healing, mastering patience, etc) and selecting the appropriate circumstances (gender, race, talents, parents, children, etc) with which to realise them. Dolores Cannon’s book Between Death & Life does the same.


Automatic writing:


Neale Donald Walsch’s Conversations with God series of books makes the same point, as do Dialogues by Kenneth James Michael MacLean.

I remember a member here sharing this story:
A woman at the hairdresser's is attempting to explain the "illusion" of this world. Her manicurist than slaps her hard on the thigh and says: "How's that for an illusion?"

It sounds about as convincing as being slapped in a dream and concluding that it must therefore be real.

You may find it "primitive", but in my view it is true... Why would a Perfect God (or His/Her "perfect particles") need to undergo a process such as the Karmic Process???

I think we first need to agree on the details of the Karmic Process.

The perfect happiness of helping others in their learning evolutionary process. The perfect happiness of co-participating more intensely in the Universal Creation Process.

What is being created? More souls?


What happens when a perfected soul wishes to begin the cycle of learning all over again?

We could go on forever in this debate of ours here, couldn't we?

Kind of like life…

 

[Groovy]

Oh, and just one last point:
Personally I don't believe we ever lose our "Individual Consciousness". Even the Great Souls such as Yeshua, Bhudda, Krishna, the Angels, etc, IMO still exist as individual personalities. The gift of Eternal Life is the only free gift of God. All else must be achieved by merit... : angel

I also don’t think that we ever lose our individual consciousness. It’s just that sometimes it enjoys the company of all the others…

 

[Charles Stuart]

Well, ok, it does seem that we don't have such different views after all... We are all elaborating over things we have no proof of, only the little we can observe from regression, NDEs and the like, so it is only natural that we might draw different conclusions. :thumbsup:

Are you saying that experience should not be important to a perfect being, or that its fruits should be attainable in other ways?

Oh no, I am also quite sure that God experiences through our experiences...

Let me put it this way – if the goal is to learn and grow, then it makes sense to me that this would be done for the experience of learning and growth rather than for the purpose of attaining knowledge, since God could have presumably created us with this knowledge already in place, or given it to us afterwards.

That's fine, but I view it a little differently. To me the spiritual evolutionary learning process takes place in a similar way as we, as humans now, have evolved from less conscious creatures similar to apes. To me, the purpose of reincarnation is to expand our consciousness, knowledge and awareness through the learning-by-experience process of reincarnation.

I meant multiverse to mean “multiple universes”. Sorry about the confusion.

I did too... :thumbsup: Sorry, didn't quite understand what you meant by that one.

It just occurred to me to ask – was this created out of nothing (as per the Christian doctrine)?

No, all things were/are created from God's Supreme Consciousness. In the film "What the bleep do we know?" there is an inteview with a scientist who says that there is enough potential energy within the space between the nucleus of one single atom and its electron to create the equivalent amount of energy existent in all stars and galaxies up to ten million (or thousand, I don't remember) light years away. If we could, with our own consciousnesses, affect even just a small part of this potential energy, we could also create a universe... :cool


To me, God is the Pure Abstraction of the Quantum Field. The Intelligent Creative Force behind all Creation.

It sounds about as convincing as being slapped in a dream and concluding that it must therefore be real.

Yes, but in the dream we don't feel "pain"...

What is being created? More souls?

Yes, and new worlds... My belief is that when we reach the "Higher Realms", we may even become "Masters of Worlds". Even before that, we may aid others in their progress by working as Spiritual Guides.

What happens when a perfected soul wishes to begin the cycle of learning all over again?

This is my point. Why would it? In my view the learning process is as infinite as the universe itself... : angel

I also don’t think that we ever lose our individual consciousness. It’s just that sometimes it enjoys the company of all the others…

Fine, but this can happen without the Soul necessarily losing its individuality.


I have enjoyed this debate, Groovy. I believe I can now better understand your views and hope that you can better understand mine...


Namaste, my good friend... :thumbsup:

 

[Groovy]

I did too... :thumbsup: Sorry, didn't quite understand what you meant by that one.

I didn’t understand the change from multiverse to multiverses, so I thought I’d check.

Yes, and new worlds... My belief is that when we reach the "Higher Realms", we may even become "Masters of Worlds". Even before that, we may aid others in their progress by working as Spiritual Guides.

I get a strong sense of elitism arising from being created early.

This is my point. Why would it? In my view the learning process is as infinite as the universe itself... : angel

I just thought that, if it was fun, someone may want to do it again, and if it’s not fun, then why go through it even once?

Fine, but this can happen without the Soul necessarily losing its individuality.

I meant within its self-awareness.


Sorry, there wasn’t much else to comment on. Still, it’s been fun. :thumbsup:

 

[Charles Stuart]

I get a strong sense of elitism arising from being created early.

Not "elitism", but there is definitely a hierarchy in the Spiritual Realms. The journey is a long one. Yeshua, in declaring himself as the "Son of God", has an interesting similarity with the Yoruban (from Africa) mythology of Oshalah, who was the "first being created by God". In the Brazilian synchretism, the Orisha known as Oshalah is associated to Jesus Christ. I personally believe that he is the Master of our "local universe".

I just thought that, if it was fun, someone may want to do it again, and if it’s not fun, then why go through it even once?

Well, it's often not very much "fun" (quite the contrary on many accounts), but reincarnation is an obligatory means for our spiritual evolution.


It is interesting. You used the term "primitive". For twelve years I took part in two lines of religion of African origin here in Brazil known as Candomblé and Umbanda (you live in South Africa, don't you? ) Well, I learned by this experience that the ancient and "primitive" African indians and Amerindians knew far more about spirituality and spiritual issues than all of modern science put together... :cool :thumbsup:

 

[Charles Stuart]

Hi again, Groovy (and all).


I just wanted to add a final comment here regarding mediumnity and mediumnic communications (and I do hope the moderation team will bear with me and be kind enough to allow me to do so in just this one post).


The term Medium means "intermediary", an intermediary between the Spiritual Realms and the Physical Realm. Almost inevitably, there is always a certain degree of interference on the part of the medium regarding such communications. There is also the fact that the communicating spirit might not be so "enlightened", resulting in lesser quality in that which is being communicated. Sometimes the proportion can be something like 10% "true" in proportion to 90% being the result of the medium's interference. Even the best mediums have a proportion of say 70% true against 30% infuenced by the medium. In this way, and Kardec mentions this with emphasis in his books, it is necessary to be very careful as to the quality of the information coming through. A similar process occurs regarding "hypnotic regressions" - it is essential to carefully evaluate and filter that which is "true" from that which may be "fantasy" or even the appearance of information that is not directly related to the person in question.


Here in Brazil, there are several scientists and doctors who are Spiritists and have been studying and researching the association between certain crystalizations found in the pineal gland which seem to be in direct proportion to the greater or lesser "attunement capacity" of the medium.


:thumbsup:

 

[Groovy]

Interesting...

 

[Groovy]

Well, it's often not very much "fun" (quite the contrary on many accounts), but reincarnation is an obligatory means for our spiritual evolution.

This is the part that I don’t get. Why make it obligatory if souls would rather avoid it, given the choice?

It is interesting. You used the term "primitive". For twelve years I took part in two lines of religion of African origin here in Brazil known as Candomblé and Umbanda (you live in South Africa, don't you? ) Well, I learned by this experience that the ancient and "primitive" African indians and Amerindians knew far more about spirituality and spiritual issues than all of modern science put together... :cool :thumbsup:

I don’t recall describing ancient cultures as spiritually primitive.


If this is a reference to our ancient ancestors not having all the answers, I stand by that. It’s hard not to, given the content of ancient scriptures. On the other hand, these people were far more in touch with spiritual realms as an integral part of their daily lives than we are today.

 

[Charles Stuart]

Hi Groovy,

Why make it obligatory if souls would rather avoid it, given the choice?

Because it is the necessary process by which all Soul/Spirits can learn, evolve and progress. To use an analogy, it is like wanting to learn without wanting to go to school...

On the other hand, these people were far more in touch with spiritual realms as an integral part of their daily lives than we are today.

Yes, they knew that all things have a form of consciousness seeing as they all derive from the One Greater Consciousness. :thumbsup: The sea, the wind, a mountain, our planet... The Orishas (Gods) of Candomblé are all associated to the "Forces of Nature": Oshalah (the air), Yemanja (the sea), Oshum (the river)... :cool The ancient tribes were more closely in contat with "Nature".


Regarding what I was saying about the "hierarchy" of the Spiritual Realms. This hierarchy is not determined by how more or less ancient a Soul/Spirit might be, but by its "merit". A younger Soul/Spirit may progress faster than an older one in this respect.


This hierarchy is in direct proportion to the quality and purity of "thought", for it is our Soul/Consciousness that "creates" our bodies by attracting the "Universal Cosmic Fluids" that it ressonates with. What determines the realm one will find itself in after death is the density of the spiritual body, which will be compatible with the density of the realm.


What you referred to as "multiverse" are the "multiple universes" that exist, which are "layers of light density within The Light". In Candomblé, there is the belief in nine. Modern science has mathematically calculated the possibility of the existence of ten. By creating its own spiritual body (as we also do with our physical body), which is more or less dense in accordance with its greater or lesser "enlightenment", the Soul/Spirit also determines which realm it will find itself in. The Pure Spirits appear as Pure Light, whereas the "unenlightened" Soul/Spirits will appear more as shadows...


: angel

 

[Groovy]

Because it is the necessary process by which all Soul/Spirits can learn, evolve and progress. To use an analogy, it is like wanting to learn without wanting to go to school...

I follow that part. However, we were created this way. The question is why, seeing that we would rather avoid the (early) consequences of this decision.

Regarding what I was saying about the "hierarchy" of the Spiritual Realms. This hierarchy is not determined by how more or less ancient a Soul/Spirit might be, but by its "merit". A younger Soul/Spirit may progress faster than an older one in this respect.

I do understand that it is based on merit. However, a soul that is created after another has reached the pinnacle of development is not likely to overtake it. I’m struggling to shake the strong sense of competition that this model inspires.

 

[Charles Stuart]

Hi Groovy,

I follow that part. However, we were created this way. The question is why, seeing that we would rather avoid the (early) consequences of this decision.

In my view, this reinforces the fact that we are not entirely and uniquely in command of the process. Apparently there are Soul/Spirits who have not as yet reached the degree by which they themselves might determine the learning and karmic processes of each lifetime. Very often this is determined for them...

However, a soul that is created after another has reached the pinnacle of development is not likely to overtake it. I’m struggling to shake the strong sense of competition that this model inspires.

Why competition if it is based on merit? We could all evolve equally, but we were given the gift our our own free will (albeit we must deal with the consequences). Many might not like this concept, but this does not mean that this is not so, just as "life" is never entirely as we would wish it to be...

 

[Charles Stuart]

Hi Groovy,


Paraphrasing "The Spirits' Book", my views are the same:

258. In the state of erraticity, and before taking on a new corporeal existence, does a spirit foresee the things which will happen to him in that new existence?
"He chooses for himself the kind of trials which he will undergo, and it is in this freedom of choice that his free-will consists."


-- It is not God, then, who imposes upon him the tribulations of life as a chastisement?


"Nothing comes to pass without the permission of God, for it is He who has established all the laws that rule the universe. You would have to inquire why He has made such and such a law, instead of taking some other way. In giving to a spirit the liberty of choice, He leaves to him the entire responsibility of his acts and of their consequences. There is nothing to bar his future; the right road is open to him as freely as the wrong road. But if he succumbs, there still remains to him the consoling fact that all is not over with him, and that God in His goodness allows him to recommence the task which he has done badly. You must, moreover, always distinguish between what is the work of God's will and what is the work of man's will. If a danger threatens you, it is not you who have created this danger, but God; but you have voluntarily elected to expose yourself to this danger, because you have seen in so doing a means of advancement, and God has permitted you to do so."

:thumbsup:

 

[Groovy]

Paraphrasing "The Spirits' Book", my views are the same:

It sounds like we have free will regarding how to engage in growing through reincarnation, but not whether to engage in it. I guess what I’m doing in both of my earlier enquiries is questioning God’s character and the potential contradiction of having such a being impose a process on us that we do not wish to have imposed.

 

[Charles Stuart]

Hi Groovy,

It sounds like we have free will regarding how to engage in growing through reincarnation, but not whether to engage in it.

It is fundamental for "spiritual evolution". We cannot progress without it... I understand your point of view. I have also battled a lot as to "why" the process should be in this way, but it is. It is just one of the laws set by God as the means for our development, and seeing as all things have a purpose, there is certainly a purpose for this process as well. Apparently, without reincarnating we would remain stationary in our growth. Again using the analogy, if a child does not want to go to school it is his/her parents' obligation to show him/her the fundamental importance of doing so. In our case, in reincarnating, this responsibility belongs to the Spiritual Guides and Masters.

I guess what I’m doing in both of my earlier enquiries is questioning God’s character and the potential contradiction of having such a being impose a process on us that we do not wish to have imposed.

IMO God's character is perfection. I see no contradiction. In God's perfection, He/She deemed it necessary that it should be so... What more perfect means could there be???

 

[Charles Stuart]

Hi again,


Here is another quote concerning what we are discussing:

196. As (soul)/spirits can only be ameliorated by undergoing the tribulations of corporeal existence, it would seem to follow that the material life is a sort of sieve or strainer, by which the beings of the spirit-world are obliged to pass in order to arrive at perfection?
"Yes; that is the case. They improve themselves under the trials of corporeal life by avoiding evil, and by practising what is good. But it is only through many successive incarnations or purifications that they succeed, after a lapse of time which is longer or shorter according to the amount of effort put forth by them, in reaching the goal towards which they tend."


-- Is it the body that influences the (soul)/spirit for its amelioration or is it the (soul)/spirit that influences the body?


"Your (soul)/spirit is everything; your body is a garment that rots, and nothing more."

:thumbsup:

 

[Groovy]

IMO God's character is perfection. I see no contradiction. In God's perfection, He/She deemed it necessary that it should be so... What more perfect means could there be???

Create beings who are closer to perfection or already perfect, if this is their preference.